The Price of a Tuna Fish Sandwich- Part 3

[Sandy]

If you search really hard, I am sure that you can locate a fancy dancy restaurant that will be more than willing to charge you $100 for a super duper tuna salad sandwich. If you try, you can easily get a lower price, say $50 for the same quality and size sandwich. You might not have quite the ambiance, or soft music. A sandwich shop, if you dare lower yourself and enter such a place, would probably make one for you for $10 or much less. But why would you? You could always buy a can of tuna, some mayo, and a loaf of bread, and make several tuna fish sandwiches for probably about $1.50 a piece. But who would lower themselves to that? You could even ask a friend to make you a tuna fish salad sandwich, and you would probably get it for nothing. Now that would really be cheap. So how little would you be willing to pay for a tuna salad sandwich??

But why would you possibly buy said tuna sandwich at a really low "value" price or a great "bang for your bucks" price when you can go to the fancy dancy retaurant and be seen with the in people? Spending $100 on said sandwich is great for the ego.

Now consider the Serotta Fierte. It is a tremendous "value" and a remarkable "bang for the bucks" purchase. You can buy a steel Fierte or a Fierte Ti, which comes with the excellent CS carbon fiber seat stay. Both the steel Fierte and the Fierte Ti are made in the Serotta factory by the same skilled craftsman who produce the more expensive models. There are 12 sizes to choose from. The finish on each model is superb.

But here is the catch- The price is simply much too low. Too much value for the discerning cyclist and potential purchaser. A steel frameset is available, with the excellent Kestrel EMS fork for only $1295. The Fierte Ti, with the same fork, is an amazingly low $1995. It is simply too much "bang for the bucks" to really consider buying. Why make such a great purchase when you can buy some framesets in ti or carbon or steel for $4,000- $10,000 or even more, if you are bright enough to know where to look. Parlee, Calfee, Colnago, and even Trek are examples of such.

So I ask, why in the world would any sane and rational person ever buy a Serotta Fierte? It is simply too much of a bargain. A great bicycle, built by a great company, with a great history, and a remarkable reputation, with outatanding customer service. Why would anyone buy such a great bike at such a low price? :)

How could Serotta offer such a wonderful bike at such a remarkably low price and expect to sell any? There are just too many outrageously overpriced bicycles, that ride no better than the Fierte.

I think that those at Serotta drove to the edge of the earth and simply jumped off. Perhaps, they were pushed. :)


Simpleton Sandy

[weisan]

S-A-N-D-Y-P-A-L, you aint learn your lesson yet?!

[Ginger]

Sandy. What's your point? Is it different than what you were aiming at before?

Serotta is offering a nice range of bicycles at a decent range of prices. Sure, the high end is quite high, but at times that is the price of progress. Whether you think the progress presented as the MeiVici is as valuable as Serotta chooses to value said progress is rather inconsequential.

I'm not sure why there's such a hue and cry over the price point that Serotta has chosen to sell its new offering at. If it sells, it sells. If it doesn't why is that skin off of your nose?

[92degrees]

Sandy, I think I read everything you write here, and I always enjoy it and think highly of you. But, I don't get this. The logic you are applying can be shifted to anything...pens, watches, pocket knives, cars, houses, socks, coffee makers...people should buy what they enjoy and can afford. You ride an Ottrott, I know you enjoy it, and that's all that matters. Like you, the new bike isn't for me, but if it's for someone else then I think that's swell.

I have a bunch of hobbies, all with their cool gear and gadgets, and I gotta tell you, if I shared with a passer-by on the street what I have spent on a fishing rod (handmade just for me!), or a pocket knife (handmade just for me!), then they would give me the same exact look that they would give us about an Ottrott (or that new frame that has a name I can't remember yet).

[ric426]

So I ask, why in the world would any sane and rational person ever buy a Serotta Fierte?

I guess by that logic, I can't claim to be sane or rational. Not that I ever have.

"I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it"... :banana:

[Kevan]

Can we lay off the tuna for a while? Maybe have some smoked turkey or roast beef? I mean, you are talking options here afterall.

Just got back from the cardiologist moments ago and we spoke of cycling and its toys. During the exam, I tried to convince him to stray from the bikepath, but he's perfectly content with his hybrid and what he thinks is a safer place to cycle. Our conversation then lead to his understanding that an individual's serious appreciation of a particular sport, such as cycling, often means a serious investment in it too. So it's in this day and age when virtually all bikes are made of either fibers or uniums of all types that steel is being perhaps snubbed as old fashion. You can't really blame a person for thinking that in light that everyone is into plastics these days.

Let's face it, there are a lot of cyclists out there that pay absolutely no heed to these sites or the talents that lurk within. We are the odd ones here, not them. They get their source of information from their club friends, bike shops and magazines, far more than from websites such as these.

Meaning no disrespect to Serotta, I sense the Fierte to an extent is modeled as a consolation prize. It's for the person who wants a Serotta, but can't afford the better bred animals in the builder's stable. Certainly there's nothing wrong with the bike it's just that it's there to snag potential customers who are willing to stretch their budget a few hundred dollars, not thousands that are more commonly spent for Serottas.

[92degrees]

So I ask, why in the world would any sane and rational person ever buy a Serotta Fierte?

Maybe it's the best they can afford.

[dirtdigger88]

Sandy- its all about having the biggest or the best-

Like this guy below- he has the largest cock I have ever seen

http://homepage.mac.com/jholzner/images/manwithhugecock.jpg
Jason

[Ginger]

I dunno. The Fierte fills a need. You get the Serotta ride and quality at a decent price. With all the talk of custom we're forgetting that a Serotta rides like a Serotta, not like a Trek or a Bianchi. You can get that ride in a custom package, but you don't have to go custom to get it. If you don't *need* a custom bike, and want the Serotta ride, the Fierte makes perfect sense. I don't think it's any less bike than any other Serotta bike. Just a bit more common version of an uncommon ride.

Face it Sandy. Some people don't understand why you'd bother to go to a restaurant to buy a Tuna sandwich. If you're going to a restaurant, go get something you can't make at home.

[Sandy]

You are all reading incorrectly and that obviously is my fault. In the previous tuna thread, I had said, that from my perspective, I thought that the price of Serotta's new carbon bike seemed very high relative to what is available. I was trying in this thread, to simply go in the opposite direction, exhibiting a bike that Serotta builds that is really an excellent bike and does not cost too much. I was actually applauding the pricing and the quality of the bike, and saying that those who pick such a bike are making a great decision by purchasing a wonderful bike for an excellent price. I was not knocking anybody or any bike or any choice. Instead of saying that a specific Serotta is too highly priced, I was trying to give an example of one that actually has an excellent price.

Sorry that I made such a pathetic attempt.


Sandy

[ric426]

I sense the Fierte to an extent is modeled as a consolation prize. It's for the person who wants a Serotta, but can't afford the better bred animals in the builder's stable. Certainly there's nothing wrong with the bike it's just that it's there to snag potential customers who are willing to stretch their budget a few hundred dollars, not thousands that are more commonly spent for Serottas.

Or maybe, just maybe, it's also for the rider who hasn't been riding a road bike long enough (like me) to be settled in enough to feel that it's time for a totally custom fitted bike, but who still appreciates the ride and quality in something like a Serotta. In time I'm sure I'll want to get one of the higher price (status?) models, but not until I feel that I've settled into a long term form and positioning.

I gotta tell ya, when I first got my Fierte Ti I was really excited to find that there is a forum for Serotta owners, but the more I'm around the more I feel like a lot of people with the full custom bikes look at the Fiertes as something less. I'm gonna be a little hesitant to approach other Serotta riders I see on full custom bikes because I don't like feeling like my bike may not be up to their lofty standards. I know they're not all gonna be like that, but I'll err on the side of caution until I know otherwise.
I like to remind myself not to take cycling *too* seriously, because when all is said and done, we're just riding neat little machines around in an essentially self serving activity, not finding a cure for cancer or bringing about world peace. It's all just a matter of perspective.

[Sandy]

I have ridden with a rider who rides a Fierte. I am not sure if it is steel or ti. He is an extremely good rider and very fast. I will never be able to keep up with him. His Fierte serves him very well, indeed.

Sandy

[Serpico]

fierte is a sweet bike dude, don't think like that

if someone needs the cachet of a Machiavelli (or whatever the new frame is called)--then so be it

too each his own, and the guy with a fierte might choose to spend his dough elsewhere (car, boat, audio eqeipment etc, etc)

I give props to anyone that is out turning the pedals, jogging, whatever--our culture is so sedentary it's sad

[Sandy]

I hope that all who read this stupid thread will realize that I was sincerely complimenting the Fierte and not knocking it.

I am really sorry that I started this thread. Really sorry.


Sandy

[palincss]

I hope that all who read this stupid thread will realize that I was sincerely complimenting the Fierte and not knocking it.

I am really sorry that I started this thread. Really sorry.


Sandy

perhaps you should have bracketed your post with <irony></irony> container tags...

[Serpico]

I hope that all who read this stupid thread will realize that I was sincerely complimenting the Fierte and not knocking it.

I am really sorry that I started this thread. Really sorry.


Sandy

Sandy, I think most realize you were kidding--my response was to the Fierte owner above who thought some Serotta owners would look down at him because he didn't have the most expensive model. I'm just saying that any Serotta is gonna be a sweet frame.

Some people choose to put their money elsewhere, we all have our own 'extravagances'.

[shiftinjon]

I hope that all who read this stupid thread will realize that I was sincerely complimenting the Fierte and not knocking it.

I am really sorry that I started this thread. Really sorry.


Sandy

Don't get mad. Some understood you're post. And every reply tells you something. ;)

Personally I think bikes/frames like this are like the gold plated Colnago given to the Pope or on display at the industry shows back in the 70's. Nice, and maybe you'd ride one on that perfect day but they are really intended to be monuments to the company or builder. And the point is these monuments are supposed to make it more prestigious to own a Fierte or whatever the blue collar offering is in the lineup of said monument.

As they say in sex and sales, "If you don't ask, you don't get." :banana:

[Ozz]

...I was really excited to find that there is a forum for Serotta owners, but the more I'm around the more I feel like a lot of people with the full custom bikes look at the Fiertes as something less. I'm gonna be a little hesitant to approach other Serotta riders I see on full custom bikes because I don't like feeling like my bike may not be up to their lofty standards. I know they're not all gonna be like that, but I'll err on the side of caution until I know otherwise....
a wise man ( ;) ) said in a recent thread..."those who care, don't matter, and those who matter don't care."

Enjoy your bike and wave at me when you pass by! :)

[ric426]

I hope that all who read this stupid thread will realize that I was sincerely complimenting the Fierte and not knocking it.

I am really sorry that I started this thread. Really sorry.


Sandy

Sandy, I appreciated the irony of your post that started this thread and made my own jest.

I guess by that logic, I can't claim to be sane or rational. Not that I ever have.

See?
My second post was prompted by Kevan's ideas about Serotta's purpose in making the Fierte models. Personally, I sold a lot of musical gear that was precious to me to get my Fierte and parts, because I made the decision to sacrifice that pursuit so that I could get serious about my riding. I wound up spending more than I'd planned as it is, at the expense of other plans. I'm totally pleased with that decision and I made a big step up in bike quality that I'll enjoy for a long time. But it does sting a bit when I get the impression that the best bike I've *ever* owned isn't up to someone else's standards.

On the other hand, I get to enjoy a huge increment in riding pleasure, going from a run of the mill bike to my Fierte, that someone adding another high end bike to their stable of other high end bikes isn't going to get. Bet I get a bigger grin everytime I ride than they do! My bike will keep me happy and satisfied for a long, long time. How many can say that? :rolleyes:

BTW, can you still join the Serotta Owner's Club if you *only* ride a Fierte? ;)

[fiamme red]

Can I get a super duper tuna fish sandwich at Delmonico's, if I'm willing to pay $100? :)

[Kevan]

Riding the Serotta I have, I would never thumb my nose at anyone else's ride. Not to say I'm not pleased with my Serotta, because I am, but I've had my share of long noses looking down at it. Anyway, I'm hardly one to throw stones, look at what I ride:

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=8850

Your reasoning is completely sound and I should have mentioned it myself. Sorry.

[dirtdigger88]

I still say you need speed blend tires on that bad boy

Jason

[Tmogul]

Actually I have the opposite fear/problem ric426. The guys I ride with are all tiny guys (130-150) and I'm a 205lbs football player type build (down from 220..diet..less lifting) and they only go for either bang for the buck or super deals when it comes to bikes (ebay). They just want the latest and greatest at the cheapest price and sell off after a year or so. They would never think about saving up thousands for a custom frame. Now I on the other hand am getting ready to purchase an expensive custom frame which obviously won't be on sale. My concern though not a huge one is that I'll feel undeserving or even foolish for spending so much money on a "dream" bike. I mean think about it. How are you supposed to feel when your buddies spank you up every single climb with their cheap giants or cervelo soloists (Al) bought at a huge discount while you suffer on in a few minutes behind? Can you see how it would make one feel a bit stupid for spending all that money? Its hard to justify your purchase when you get dropped like a stone as Phil says. Its all about speed for racers. However when the sprint comes..........heh heh.....

I guess it depends on your group dynamics but when you're around serious young racers there is this mentality of whether you deserve the ride or not. I was at the rosebowl ride and saw some older guy ride next to a girl (who is really fast by the way) and commented on how fancy here new zipp 404's were. However the way he said it was...."man those wheels cost more than my entire bike"...after which he proceeded to cross the double yellow and move up the 100+ peleton the wrong way. The girl shouldn't care what that idiot thought but its this type of mentality that can hamper your riding experience on a bad day. Elitist in a different way I guess. I guess its human nature too.

So I'm training like mad now so I can do my custom ride proud when I get it. And yes who really cares what others think. Ride on. :)

[ric426]

Riding the Serotta I have, I would never thumb my nose at anyone else's ride. Not to say I'm not pleased with my Serotta, because I am, but I've had my share of long noses looking down at it. Anyway, I'm hardly one to throw stones, look at what I ride:

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=8850

Your reasoning is completely sound and I should have mentioned it myself. Sorry.

Kevan,
That bike is awesome! There was a time when I would have been delighted to ride a bike like that, and thumb my nose at anyone it offended, but I guess I'm getting more "low profile" in my old age. That, and a bit of newbie insecurity at being relatively new to road biking and still learning the ropes.
I was glad to get off the gaudy team color Trek 5200 I had, mostly 'cuz it didn't fit me worth a darn, but also because it made me self conscious, because t if I saw someone riding that bike, I'd expect them to be a serious racer. Now I'm happy to have a low key Ti finish and simple decals.

[fiamme red]

Riding the Serotta I have, I would never thumb my nose at anyone else's ride. Not to say I'm not pleased with my Serotta, because I am, but I've had my share of long noses looking down at it. Anyway, I'm hardly one to throw stones, look at what I ride:

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=8850

Your reasoning is completely sound and I should have mentioned it myself. Sorry.Kevan, I'm moved by your plight. And I'm willing to do you a big favor, saving you any future embarrassment. Just send me your Serotta and I'll send you a normal-looking Cannondale (same size) that will keep the long noses away. :D

[Kevan]

Now you have me scared. I bought this bike as a 50th birthday present for myself. I can only gather that as you said yourself, getting older you've become more stayed. Well... what's to become of me if I continue on this route???

What's next??? Not that...that... cow bike!!!!

(Sandy, stay out of this!)

[ric426]

Now you have me scared. I bought this bike as a 50th birthday present for myself. I can only gather that as you said yourself, getting older you've become more stayed. Well... what's to become of me if I continue on this route???

What's next??? Not that...that... cow bike!!!!

(Sandy, stay out of this!)

Hey, don't worry. I'd be mighty tempted to buy that bike too. I think celeste tires would match too well though. Gotta get blue ones! Ya know, if you compare it to some of the clothing we wear for riding, that bike's not all that flashy. Anybody out there know who Ralph Steadman is? I've got a couple of jerseys with his art work on 'em that'd make any snooty roadie gag in disgust. At 52, I guess I'm not more conservative so much as just a little insecure being new to road biking, but not enough to supress the urge to annoy anyone who takes themselves too seriously.
When I first got the Fierte I was a little worried about the "more bike than I deserve" stigma, but once I rode it, I was so delighted I really don't give a darn. I'm already riding more and seeing improvements in my performance, so it's all worth it.

[The Spider]

ric426,

The good riders give respect for who you are and what you do, not on what you ride. Be proud of your ride, hold your head high and talk with whomever you wish. You've bought yourself a damn fine bicycle, enjoy it.

[Ginger]

Don't worry Ric,
No bike in the world is "too much bike" for anyone. Don't get me wrong: It might be the wrong tool for the job, so it might be the *wrong* bike; but I think if it makes the rider happy and gets them off the couch, it's the right bike. The funny thing is that many people grow into the bikes they buy.
A bike is a bike is a bike. Ride it!

:banana:

(I never understood the tendency for people to identify people by the bikes they ride...my buddies will talk about the guy on the XXX bike and I won't have a clue who they're talking about, but if they tell me about the girl in grey or the guy who's always laughing...I know who they're talking about.)

[Spinsistah]

While Serotta frames have the reputation in some arenas for being high priced, Serotta offers something for everyone; the entry level Fierte is a quality frame at a reasonable price given what you get for your money.

[Smiley]

Dear Ric , my Kogswell G frame is dirt cheap but for its intended purpse of fixee riding ITS GREAT . Just enjoy what you ride . I still think my Hors is the cats meow and its cheap in today's money terms , I think I have owned this frame for close to + 7 years now . It still serves me well , very well indeed .

[ric426]

I really didn't mean to hijack this thread, but I do appreciate the words of encouragement. Believe me, I love the bike and it's providing a lot of pleasure and even more motivation to improve my riding. Any doubts about deserving such a nice bike are long past (heck, I worked long and hard to get it), and thanks to you people, I feel confident enough to ignore the Bozos who might look down on me or my bike. I just need to remind myself that if they'd faced the serious medical problems I've overcome to ride at all, a lot of them wouldn't even try to ride. It gives me a whole lot more appreciation and enjoyment of cycling, and I *know* I get more joy out of each ride than they do.

Now, back to Tuna sandwiches. I'm hungry.

[Smiley]

Sandy let's do a Potomac ride tomorrow and you can buy me a Tuna sandwich at the gucci french baggette place ( Vie De France ) . I know that Tuna sandwich will cost you $ 8.50 on a butter croissiont with Brie cheese . I love you man , what would this place be without you , when does your Eno built rear wheel get in , do we want to order your chain rings and chain now !!!