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bicycletricycle
02-19-2012, 05:17 PM
I had not taken a look at the serotta pricing for a while (i think the last time i did it was when i was selling them 10 years ago) but that white legend pave in the gallery made me look to see what something like that would run. The closest model i could find pricing on is a Legend SE coming in at $5700 dollars for frame/fork. I dont know if the ti rear end is cheaper but I have to say i was surprised. I have not spent a lot of time looking at high end ti frames specifically and i found myself wondering why exactly this frame is at such a high price point.

I couldn't tell from the pics if some of the tubes are still tapered on that sweet pave but it looks like they are still using custom tapered tubes on these bikes which is still pretty unique and i suppose that warrants some increase in price. The serotta expertise in customization both in fit and ride tuning is also second to none. The finishing is always super as well.

I guess what i am saying is that Serotta makes some real nice machines but have other people here found their pricing a little hard to justify? If not what about the process or bicycle added that extra value for you?

bargainguy
02-19-2012, 05:23 PM
If you can afford a new Serotta, there's nothing better. If you can't, serious sticker shock.

I love my indy fabs, but all three complete bikes bought used still wouldn't equal the price of a new frame/fork I want.

Don

sirroada
02-19-2012, 05:32 PM
I currently own a Serotta Legend Ti. Absolutely love it BUT...I will never buy another one. I paid just over 8K for my complete DA equipped Legend in 05. Now, that same bike is selling for over 11. Its ridiculous. 10-20K for a BIKE! I can buy a 5-7K bike and be just as happy riding it. I read his public statement located somewhere on this forum and its evident that the volume of frame sales isn't what it used to be. The answer to this is simple...its because his pricing is not in line with what he is selling and market demands have changed. I'm not saying he doesn't build awesome frames. I am saying he is charging way to much for those awesome frames. (Now, my flame suit is on and I am ducking).
No offense Ben...love your frames though. I just won't pay what you are asking for them.

AngryScientist
02-19-2012, 05:35 PM
at this point in my life - i am priced out of the new market for Serotta, plain and simple. no question.

to your point and question though: i dont think there is any reason to drop the premium coin on a new Serotta at this point when there are several Serotta alumni who can make, literally, the same frames for thousands less (for steel and Ti anyway).

Jason E
02-19-2012, 05:40 PM
I hate to agree, but I do. I hate to agree only because I wish it was different. I have an Ottrott only because I was in a shop part time years ago and got a good price.

I know Serotta has history, but it can not justify the $1,700 difference between the Legend Ti and the Ti CJ from IF. If it were a few hundred dollars, I could maybe say it was for badge, prestige, etc... But $1,700 is a lot at that altitude.

I would say if you are interested, no pricing has been set in stone, and it has been about 90 days since there has been a peep out of Serotta on their new line. I wouldn't do a thing until they post or update. Maybe they finally got the idea, cleared the drawing board, and are starting over, pricing included.

Outdated website and no communication from the manufacturer in 3 months... Keep saving your nickels.

-Serotta Fan [not sarcasm]

bicycletricycle
02-19-2012, 05:44 PM
i would really like to support serotta, i have put a lot of miles on a few second hand ones over the years, i wonder what is driving the price so high? overhead or...... I would have to think that orders would increase if they were to drop their prices but maybe they cant afford to. I am not a business man so i have no idea what i am talking about.

mike p
02-19-2012, 05:46 PM
I long for the Serotta of the past! They've totally Lost touch.

Mike

Kirk007
02-19-2012, 05:52 PM
If you find that shocking check the price of the meivici. Unless I win the lotto I can't see myself ever coughing up the coin for a new Serotta. Would like to have one but just not buying the value proposition at the current prices. O

PaMtbRider
02-19-2012, 05:53 PM
I bought a brand new Ottrott SE frame and fork on Ebay last year for $2500. It is buy far the best riding, nicest bike I have ever owned. Unfortunately, if I had to replace it, I couldn't justify the retail price. As much as I love the bike, there are too many custom builders out there that I would got to first. A Ti Spectrum, Moots or Firefly, carbon Carl Strong and many others are considerably less expensive and where I would be looking to spend my money.

happycampyer
02-19-2012, 05:54 PM
I have a custom Vamoots RSL, which isn't that far off from the price of a Legend. The current cost of a stock RSL frame and fork is $4,650, and the custom option is $650, so that's $5,300 for a custom RSL. If you consider that the Legend comes with an F3 fork, which is made in the US, comes in different stiffnesses, etc., and costs more, the price differential is not as big as it appears.

That said, I too think that Serotta would sell more bikes if the prices were lower. Not sure where the break-even is. I previously posted (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=1039375&postcount=47) on the fact that the prices are not necessarily as out of line with others as they appear.

Jason E
02-19-2012, 05:58 PM
i would really like to support serotta, i have put a lot of miles on a few second hand ones over the years, i wonder what is driving the price so high? overhead or...... I would have to think that orders would increase if they were to drop their prices but maybe they cant afford to. I am not a business man so i have no idea what i am talking about.

Agreed. Just because you can, doesn't mean you should... And by that I am referring to the aftermarket forks. They should focus on great frames, and use the fork du jour. Their forks are sublime, but they would have been fine using Reynolds Ouza Pro's that other high end companies used to use. They'd be fine today using the ENVE like others are doing now.

I know, I know, we do not know their model, but they've got to do something different. If they don't lower their price and move bikes it wont matter what they charge, no matter how much the pain..

rdparadise
02-19-2012, 05:59 PM
Well, I was fortunate to pick up a NOS Legend Ti/ST in 2007 for about 1/2 retail at that time. It was stock 56cm which is what I wanted so I didn't need the custom. I built the bike with Neutron wheels, Campy Chorus and all toll, it came in just under 5k. I'm very satisfied with the bike and know that I will never need another.

That being said, I could afford a new Serotta, however, frankly, I cannot justify 5k or more on the frame alone. It's just too much coin for my taste. I agree with the other posters, Ben, has to look at supply and demand. If he wants more demand, (and I would say he does), then he's got to lower the price to become more competitive.

On the second note, about Serotta alumni out there toiling away, while they are very good, they cannot deliver what Serotta does. They don't have access to the proprietary tubing, and for Kelly Bedford's sake, he is now doing Ti, however not double or triple butted. I respect all the Serotta alumni and frankly this isn't a knock it's just a difference that they do not offer at this time. Both Dave and Kelly build beautiful bikes and I would be very pleased with either of them building me a custom frame, especially one with the Terraplane rear end.

Regards,

Bob

54ny77
02-19-2012, 06:00 PM
as of 6:59 p.m. eastern on 2-19-12, each person's share of the national debt is approx $49,399.72, so the pricing on any serotta is a relative bargain.

:banana:

Spin71
02-19-2012, 06:06 PM
If you can afford a new Serotta, there's nothing better

That's your opinion.

bicycletricycle
02-19-2012, 06:10 PM
as of 6:59 p.m. eastern on 2-19-12, each person's share of the national debt is approx $49,399.72, so the pricing on any serotta is a relative bargain.

:banana:


that has nothing to do with this, and i really hate that dancing banana. :)

AngryScientist
02-19-2012, 06:17 PM
On the second note, about Serotta alumni out there toiling away, while they are very good, they cannot deliver what Serotta does. They don't have access to the proprietary tubing, and for Kelly Bedford's sake, he is now doing Ti, however not double or triple butted.


I was unaware of that fact, thanks for pointing that out. it is certainly a good and valid point.

Also, my Serotta Legend Ti is certainly one of the nicest frames I've ever ridden, and i've never heard anyone say a bad word about Serotta quality, so that's is something to lean on as well.

crownjewelwl
02-19-2012, 06:26 PM
I was unaware of that fact, thanks for pointing that out. it is certainly a good and valid point.

Also, my Serotta Legend Ti is certainly one of the nicest frames I've ever ridden, and i've never heard anyone say a bad word about Serotta quality, so that's is something to lean on as well.

Builders can source manipulated tubes...my ti cj has butted tubes...pretty sure Indy fab didn't do it themselves!

The question is whether tube manipulation is worth the premium. Perhaps k bedford doesn't think it is...

54ny77
02-19-2012, 06:37 PM
come on, i'm just trying to point out relative bargains. ;)

and yes i think serotta new custom pricing is insane. i'm fortunate to have bought one used, but no way jose could i justify the same thing new. not a chance.

i have no idea how they scale things down to get competitive yet still occupy the niche that ben has said he wants to occupy (based on what i've read here). hope he/they figure it out.

maybe slim down the 11,614 variations in tubing combinations that they currently offer (i'm making that # up, but you get the idea). 3 different combinations sounds more like it: neutral/smooth, medium stiff, really stiff.

that has nothing to do with this, and i really hate that dancing banana. :)

DrSpoke
02-19-2012, 06:46 PM
I know for sure I'll never have a new Serotta. Back in the early 2000s I was still riding my '77 Alan/Nuovo Record and had been spoiled by the technology in my mountain bikes. I was fortunate to find a very nice Concour/Daytona on ebay from a bike shop. It looked new then and after a rebuild last year still looks new and has performed flawlessly. A few years after that I was able to trade some services for a Record 10 sp groupo that sat around unused. So a couple of years ago I was able to find a Ducati (Bianchi) carbon frameset that had never been ridden for about $1k. I bought a set of Eurus two-ways and now have a sweet bike for less than $2k and a little time. I was amazed at how much faster it is than my Serotta but still find it hard to part with the Serotta. I still may at some point as I don't ride it much but it sure is an extremely nice bicyle. My first sticker shock with bicycles came a few years back when I went into a shop and saw the tag "financing available."

I've also got two Ducati motorcycles - the second a '06 Supersport w/1800 miles on it for $5k. If I'm going to spend $7-10k I'm going to get another Ducati - a motorcycle that is. I find it amazing to compare a new $12k bicycle with a $12k motorcycle. That is how much more engineering, parts, etc. that go into a motorcycle for about the same cost. I'm thankful I have both.

CunegoFan
02-19-2012, 06:47 PM
With no real data to go on aside from what I see from the prices of various builders, I suspect there is what I will term a sustainable sweet spot for bare frame prices that is between $3K and $4K. Lots of people will throw down for that amount but above the $4K mark the number of potential buyers thins out rapidly. For a mid sized company that requires a large volume of orders, prices way outside that 4K limit will present a serious problem.

I found it interesting that when Kent Eriksen left Moots he priced his frames inline with what Moots was charging even though he should have been able to demand a premium. That makes me think that although he knew he could get the extra price during the good times, he priced his frames at a point where he could ride out the bad times.

Nooch
02-19-2012, 06:59 PM
you know, this all makes me think "what ever happened to the 10*77?" (http://serotta.com/news-events/61/details/)

it was my understanding that this was supposed to be a step back to the olden days, a more affordable choice, "with complete bikes starting at $2900." That's well in the realm of reasonability. Granted, it's steel, not carbon, but i'm sure it could still make a great bike!

But they released a press release in June -- It's February. So what's up with that?



I found it interesting that when Kent Eriksen left Moots he priced his frames inline with what Moots was charging even though he should have been able to demand a premium. That makes me think that although he knew he could get the extra price during the good times, he priced his frames at a point where he could ride out the bad times.

On the other end of the spectrum, look at Firefly, which we all debated whether or not they were in the right launching with prices based on their pedigree..

JLNK
02-19-2012, 07:01 PM
I have a CSI I was fortunate to buy used and a mtn frame I bought new a long time ago. Not too long ago I contacted Serotta re: ordering a Colorado GS but was told they are not offering that frame this year. A CDA SE lists for $3,595. for a frame if I remember correctly. I would love a new custom Serotta but cannot rationalize the price so I look for clean used frames, however used 62 to 63cm CSIs do not come along very often. I recently ordered a lugged, one color, Max frame/fork from Tim Neenan for 59% of the price of the CDA SE.

Ahneida Ride
02-19-2012, 07:02 PM
http://forums.thepaceline.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=65132

Jason E
02-19-2012, 07:20 PM
http://forums.thepaceline.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=65132

Can you get me some of them expensive $100 bills?

Ramjm_2000
02-19-2012, 08:16 PM
On the second note, about Serotta alumni out there toiling away, while they are very good, they cannot deliver what Serotta does. They don't have access to the proprietary tubing, and for Kelly Bedford's sake, he is now doing Ti, however not double or triple butted. I respect all the Serotta alumni and frankly this isn't a knock it's just a difference that they do not offer at this time. Both Dave and Kelly build beautiful bikes and I would be very pleased with either of them building me a custom frame, especially one with the Terraplane rear end.

Regards,

Bob

Not true. You or I could order a tubeset if we wanted. A simple call to Reynolds or Feather tech (http://www.titubing.com/) is all it would take. Now the question would be if they wanted to build with it.

bicycletricycle
02-19-2012, 08:22 PM
i think that both reynolds and feather tech only have butted tubes and not tapered (swedged) tubing. Except for the stays which are almost always tapered. I may be wrong here.

do any other ti frames get built with tapered main tubes?

Ramjm_2000
02-19-2012, 08:26 PM
I can't see me buying a Serotta given their prices either. The wife is pretty understanding about what I spend on bikes as long as our current "one in one out" arrangement (seems I'm already at my max # of bikes, luckily its temporary until I retire from the military) is kept. IMO their current offerings don't really offer anything unique enough for me to buy another. Too many other options out there (lighter, more cutting edge) that suit me better.

Ramjm_2000
02-19-2012, 08:35 PM
i think that both reynolds and feather tech only have butted tubes and not tapered (swedged) tubing. Except for the stays which are almost always tapered. I may be wrong here.

do any other ti frames get built with tapered main tubes?

Lynskeys pretty much run the gambit (masters of the manipulated tube). Simple/elegant or highly/manipulated cutting edge. They taper many of their tubes including headtubes. Given the Lynskey roots, Litespeed may as well.

bicycletricycle
02-19-2012, 08:39 PM
Duh, totally forgot about them, the kitespeed shaped tubing is mostly seemed, I wonder if the lynsky shaped tubes are seamless or seemed.

Ramjm_2000
02-19-2012, 08:45 PM
Im not 100% sure but given the really manipulated stuff (Helix tubes) is 3/2.5 vs. 6/4 I would think it's seemless. Maybe some Merlin owners can chime in to verify the use of tapered tubes on the late model ABG bikes. :confused:

SPOKE
02-19-2012, 09:07 PM
Last bit of first hand info I had from inside Serotta is that the main triangle tubes and chainstays are purchased as straight gage "blanks". Serotta then custom butts and shapes these tubes in-house on equipment they bought then modified for this purpose. This is some serious $$'s laid out for equipment and skill to use it. Lynskey may have this capability too but dont know for sure. What I do know is if their shaped tubes are made from 6Al4V Ti then they start life as a flat sheet and seam welded. His is not good or bad.....it needs to be this way for 6Al4V Ti to be shape the way Lynskey choses to do it. They can create shaped tubes from the more common 3Al2.5V Ti tubing alloy if the want/need.
As for pricing....sometimes it's used to create a perception that a product is better (define better). Sometimes pricing is higher because a more expensive process is used. Sometimes the person/company has a higher perceived "cashe" in the market place.
I do know that when you compare similar custom offerings from the builders generally thought to be at the top of the fame building biz there is generally only a $300-$600 difference in price.
Personally, I really like what Serotta does and the way they have tried to distinguish themselves.

Ramjm_2000
02-19-2012, 09:20 PM
Lynskey may have this capability too but dont know for sure. What I do know is if their shaped tubes are made from 6Al4V Ti then they start life as a flat sheet and seam welded. His is not good or bad.....it needs to be this way for 6Al4V Ti to be shape the way Lynskey choses to do it. They can create shaped tubes from the more common 3Al2.5V Ti tubing alloy if the want/need.
.

The only model with 6/4 main tubes is the R440 (unless you custom spec tubes). The rest of their frames are manipulated shaped 3/2.5.

SPOKE
02-19-2012, 09:43 PM
The only model with 6/4 main tubes is the R440 (unless you custom spec tubes). The rest of their frames are manipulated shaped 3/2.5.

I haven't checked their offerings since about 2007 when I took delivery of my Level 4 custom. Really nice frame. It has a nicely shaped 6-4 downtube. Great riding bike IMO. Still have it but I grab one of the others in my collection when I get a chance to go for a ride.

Jack Brunk
02-19-2012, 10:36 PM
A butted Ti frame from Hampsten is almost half the price of a Serotta. I and most of the buyers will go to a Hampsten 99/100 and the one didn't care. Common Serotta, Drop the price and some of the masses will buy otherwise good night now.

TMB
02-19-2012, 10:44 PM
Butted Ti tubes in a fully custom frame are $3400 from Strong. Add $500 for a fork.

Less than $4K and you will not find a finer bike.

forrestw
02-19-2012, 10:45 PM
I just looked over pricing and found $1000-1200 difference between Serotta and Seven, so it's a thousand, not *thousands* difference by my reading. (comparing Elium slx to Legend, Axium to Classique). The IF CJ is not much more bike IMO than a Classique and is more expensive.

I don't have the money to own multiples of high end custom bikes like so many of our members do. I bought my Legend in '08 and wouldn't have considered a Seven or an IF, neither offers the features that I love in my Legend and neither offers the network of fitters Serotta has developed. Seven's fit tool is a 7 page questionnaire.

I'm not going to go into the details of the crap I don't like in IF/Seven's designs and if their frames cost 1/2 what Serottas do, I'd still not be interested.

Nags&Ducs
02-20-2012, 02:01 AM
I have to agree that Serotta is over my threshold and I wouldn't buy one of the new at their current prices. I'm sure there are many out there that feel that Serotta is worth every penny of the asking price and that's cool with me. I'm not gonna judge how someone spends their money. But for me, when looking for Ti, I first look to Moots or Eriksen, then Seven, Strong, IF, and Lynskey. IIRC, Seven seems almost as expensive as Serotta. So as much as I like Seven and Serotta, I doubt I will buy one of these two new. Fortunately, there is huge used market for Ti and I see plenty of Sevens and Serottas at killer prices. Sucks for the seller but great for the buyer. If I do buy a new Ti, I am strongly considering Eriksen. If I buy used, I will look for Seven, Moots, and Serotta.

jpw
02-20-2012, 04:08 AM
http://www.serotta.com/assets/documents//110601%202011%20Road%20&%20TT%20MSRP.pdf

Is this the relevant price list, or has it been changed up?

gearguywb
02-20-2012, 05:59 AM
There are some great bikes out there and I would love to include a Serotta in the stable, particularly a pave model, but pricing needs to be in-line with what others are offering or you run the risk of pricing yourself out of the market.

biker72
02-20-2012, 06:38 AM
I can buy a 5-7K bike and be just as happy riding it.
Actually I could buy a 2-3K bike and be very happy..... :)

rugbysecondrow
02-20-2012, 06:52 AM
On the second note, about Serotta alumni out there toiling away, while they are very good, they cannot deliver what Serotta does. They don't have access to the proprietary tubing, and for Kelly Bedford's sake, he is now doing Ti, however not double or triple butted. I respect all the Serotta alumni and frankly this isn't a knock it's just a difference that they do not offer at this time. Both Dave and Kelly build beautiful bikes and I would be very pleased with either of them building me a custom frame, especially one with the Terraplane rear end.

Regards,

Bob

I don't know if this is right Bob. There is a difference between butting and the tapered tubes Serotta uses. What the taper adds to the right is another question entirely and there are varying opinions on that.

Joachim
02-20-2012, 07:08 AM
There is a difference between butting and the tapered tubes Serotta uses. What the taper adds to the right is another question entirely and there are varying opinions on that.

This is interesting. My (soon) Spectrum Ti has butted tubes. In addition to selecting individual tubes, I'm not sure if Tom Kellogg also does some tube orientation. I never asked, just went with what he suggested. My build sheet does have some specified "facing" measurements for some tubes, but I do not know if that is the same as taper. Whether my Spectrum can be compared to a Legend in ride quality (and therefore in price)? I guess I can only answer that once I have a Legend. :)

Ahneida Ride
02-20-2012, 07:28 AM
Bedford Customs does indeed build in butted Ti tubes.

I absolutely LOVE my Legend ....

but at 6500 frn for just a new frame/fork .. :confused:

sirroada
02-20-2012, 07:41 AM
Actually I could buy a 2-3K bike and be very happy..... :)

I totally agree...

oldpotatoe
02-20-2012, 07:51 AM
I have to agree that Serotta is over my threshold and I wouldn't buy one of the new at their current prices. I'm sure there are many out there that feel that Serotta is worth every penny of the asking price and that's cool with me. I'm not gonna judge how someone spends their money. But for me, when looking for Ti, I first look to Moots or Eriksen, then Seven, Strong, IF, and Lynskey. IIRC, Seven seems almost as expensive as Serotta. So as much as I like Seven and Serotta, I doubt I will buy one of these two new. Fortunately, there is huge used market for Ti and I see plenty of Sevens and Serottas at killer prices. Sucks for the seller but great for the buyer. If I do buy a new Ti, I am strongly considering Eriksen. If I buy used, I will look for Seven, Moots, and Serotta.


Since I sell 'em.

http://moots.com/our-bike/road/vamoots-rsl/overview

Moots has had it's best year ever, in 2011, for info.

rePhil
02-20-2012, 08:23 AM
Peter,

What model Moots do you sell the most of?

I have a Compact and can say that it truly is a "lifetime" bike. I will never willingly part with it.


Since I sell 'em.

http://moots.com/our-bike/road/vamoots-rsl/overview

Moots has had it's best year ever, in 2011, for info.

oldpotatoe
02-20-2012, 08:31 AM
Peter,

What model Moots do you sell the most of?

I have a Compact and can say that it truly is a "lifetime" bike. I will never willingly part with it.

MotoX YBB followed by Vamoots, followed by the RSL...pretty equal. Found we are one of the top 5 MOOTS dealers in the..........world.

If I had to have only one bicycle, it would be my Vamoots. PLUS the company is a genuine pleasure to deal with. Smallish(but 1200 frames give or take in 2011), personal, call and you get a person(Cassie or Cory, national sales manager). If you are ever in Steamboat during the week, drop by for a tour-tell 'em Pietro at Vecchio's sent ya.

veloduffer
02-20-2012, 08:35 AM
What's disturbing is that even we Serotta aficionados think that their bikes are overpriced -- to the general public, it must seem ridiculous. I cherish my Ottrott and Concours CX, but honestly don't think I would buy a new Serotta if they needed replacing.

I don't know if Serotta does any market research, but I think it would probably be the most important data needed to shape their future. It's very easy to become insular in one's thinking and an outside, independent opinion is always good to have - you may not follow it but should be aware of what others are thinking.

IMHO, Serotta hasn't done enough to differentiate itself from the field, particularly at their pricing levels. The high end of the market is very competitive now, and the consumer dollar is tight, even the high end, as folks want value. And Serotta is not alone, as I think Colnago and DeRosa (amongst others) are also struggling to find their place in the new market.

soulspinner
02-20-2012, 08:41 AM
I bought a brand new Ottrott SE frame and fork on Ebay last year for $2500. It is buy far the best riding, nicest bike I have ever owned. Unfortunately, if I had to replace it, I couldn't justify the retail price. As much as I love the bike, there are too many custom builders out there that I would got to first. A Ti Spectrum, Moots or Firefly, carbon Carl Strong and many others are considerably less expensive and where I would be looking to spend my money.


Feel the same way. Picked up a nib carbon frame this week and my budget is less for a whole bike than the frame/fork of a Meivici. Its not that I wouldnt love it. :cool:

Climb01742
02-20-2012, 08:47 AM
MotoX YBB followed by Vamoots, followed by the RSL...pretty equal. Found we are one of the top 5 MOOTS dealers in the..........world.

If I had to have only one bicycle, it would be my Vamoots. PLUS the company is a genuine pleasure to deal with. Smallish(but 1200 frames give or take in 2011), personal, call and you get a person(Cassie or Cory, national sales manager). If you are ever in Steamboat during the week, drop by for a tour-tell 'em Pietro at Vecchio's sent ya.

peter, what's your take on why moots is doing well in a tough economy?

AngryScientist
02-20-2012, 08:49 AM
I don't know if Serotta does any market research, but I think it would probably be the most important data needed to shape their future.

another interesting thing, in line with market research is the used market. Serotta (it appears to me) does not command as strong a price used as other similar brands, Seven, Moots and others. that's telling you something right there.

Chad Engle
02-20-2012, 08:54 AM
That's your opinion.

No chit?

oldpotatoe
02-20-2012, 09:02 AM
peter, what's your take on why moots is doing well in a tough economy?

"do one thing and do it well". No carbon plugs, no carbon backends, carbon forks only. They recognize a couple of things.

-Ti rides great, but the ride quality is still personal, subjective.

-carbon plugs and rear ends are marketing mostly..started by Pinarello(carbon rear ends) and Seven(carbon plugs) but do little(nuthin) to make that subjective ride any better but 'may' make the frame less than multi-lifetime.

-They are innovative. YBB, new full sus, been doing 29ers for a long time. RSL-carbon weight, race frame, BUT $4500 for frame and fork. Yes expensive but a RSL with DA is the same $ as a Mevici frame and fork.

-their dealer network is key. They take care of us, we take care of them and the end customer.

For this segment, I think Moots is somewhat insulated fromt the economy in general, much like Boulder is somewhat of a 'bubble' in Colorado.

PLUS great product, fair pricing, strong support of the dealer network(with a market awash with carbon, gotta have the person 'sell' the frame, hello ben, not a time to go direct, in spite of the increased/double margin).

All around great product and when somebody comes in to talk Moots, our enthusiasm for the brand(and for Waterford, same support, product, pricing, only in steel-no carbon plugs or rear ends, thanks) is obvious.

jr59
02-20-2012, 09:02 AM
peter, what's your take on why moots is doing well in a tough economy?

Not to step on Pietero toes, but I'll try.

1. They build a very high quality product.
2. They are customer friendly and dealer protective.
3.They are responsive both to the end user as well as the dealer.
4. And should have been first; THEY BUILD GREAT LOOKING AND RIDING BIKES!

Climb01742
02-20-2012, 09:13 AM
"do one thing and do it well". No carbon plugs, no carbon backends, carbon forks only. They recognize a couple of things.

-Ti rides great, but the ride quality is still personal, subjective.

-carbon plugs and rear ends are marketing mostly..started by Pinarello(carbon rear ends) and Seven(carbon plugs) but do little(nuthin) to make that subjective ride any better but 'may' make the frame less than multi-lifetime.

-They are innovative. YBB, new full sus, been doing 29ers for a long time. RSL-carbon weight, race frame, BUT $4500 for frame and fork. Yes expensive but a RSL with DA is the same $ as a Mevici frame and fork.

-their dealer network is key. They take care of us, we take care of them and the end customer.

For this segment, I think Moots is somewhat insulated fromt the economy in general, much like Boulder is somewhat of a 'bubble' in Colorado.

PLUS great product, fair pricing, strong support of the dealer network(with a market awash with carbon, gotta have the person 'sell' the frame, hello ben, not a time to go direct, in spite of the increased/double margin).

All around great product and when somebody comes in to talk Moots, our enthusiasm for the brand(and for Waterford, same support, product, pricing, only in steel-no carbon plugs or rear ends, thanks) is obvious.

thanks, peter. your points all make a ton of sense. i might add one more, less tangible thing: moots feels authentic, it feels like they believe in ti, and rather than chase sales in other materials, they'll stick to what they know and believe in. that's appealing.

SamIAm
02-20-2012, 09:25 AM
With regard to Serotta, this is a company seems to be completely out of sync with their industry.

Their pricing is just stupid. You don't get to price your product based on your cost. Well you can price it, you just have trouble selling it.

In our business, a good product is distinguished in 2-3 measurable ways from the competition that matter to customers. This yields pricing power.

I don't think Serotta has pricing power at this point. They need to find a way to go after cost if that is what is driving the price. Remove the differentiation that doesn't matter to customers. But, could there be a component of pride in the pricing?

Kirk007
02-20-2012, 09:45 AM
In our business, a good product is distinguished in 2-3 measurable ways from the competition that matter to customers. This yields pricing power.

I don't think Serotta has pricing power at this point. They need to find a way to go after cost if that is what is driving the price. Remove the differentiation that doesn't matter to customers. But, could there be a component of pride in the pricing?

Agree 100% The only differentiations I can see are the tapered tubing claim and in house carbon fork (and in-house carbon now on the all carbon models). But, for me Serotta loses the value proposition as when you hang parts, and particularly wheels and tires on the frame and fork, I am not convinced that these characteristics result in an improved ride/performance over the competitors. (and since no dealers are around with a 62ish frame I can't get the first hand experience).

For me though, I am quite certain that my butt would not be able to distinguish a quantifiable difference. Will it be a great ride? I would think so (based on my old Legend), but noticeably better than my Kirks or Peg? I sincerely doubt it. What would stick with me though is the very quantifiable larger debit in my bank account and the gut feeling that I had overpaid; that I had overpaid for the name rather than the product. Now I would be open to being convinced otherwise, but what is the likelihood of having product anywhere close to my size/specs to be rideable without a network of dealers with some spec sizes for test rides?

Climb01742
02-20-2012, 09:47 AM
In our business, a good product is distinguished in 2-3 measurable ways from the competition that matter to customers. This yields pricing power.

most fundamentally this gives you sales. you nailed it, sam. if a business can't answer this question, you really don't have a business, "Why should I give my money to you and not to someone else? What makes you different?"

DRZRM
02-20-2012, 09:54 AM
Jack,

I'm not sure that this really undermines your point, and as an owner of an old Ti Legend I'm horrified by the current pricing and know as a professor in the humanities, I'll never be able to afford one again. That said, the butted Gran Paradiso (only the top and down tubes are butted) is $3,700 in house, $4,000 if welded by Kent Eriksen. I believe the carbon seat stays on the Legend SE are a significant up charge, so an all ti version should be closer to $5k than $5,700. Obviously the Hampsted is a significant savings, but it is not nearly half the price. Firefly at $3,850 seems to offer full butted custom only options, and may be a relative bargain these days (who would have thought given the outrage here at their initial offerings).

As people keep pointing out, Serotta's cost is higher, but not so much higher than what is offered by comparable builders, and if I had $7,000-10,000 to spend on a bike, I'm not sure $1,000 savings would be that important. What I find remarkable, and much more applicable to this discussion has been the recent resale value of Serotta's vs. Moots. Overall, ti resale has been terrible in recent years, which is odd, if I were buying a frame about which I didn't know much of its history or the sort of care it had been given, I'd much rather have a ti frame than steel (rust) or carbon (potentially delicate and rarely under any warrantee when purchased used). I've been shocked to see the pricing on even late modeled ti Spectrums, IFs, Strongs and of course Serottas. It's not that I'm so morally outraged by any of their MSRP pricing, I just find it hard to imagine (as someone who rides a large but fairly standard 59-60cm square frame) not holding out for a bargain on a used frame. The only list I could even imagine going on would be Firefly because there are no used bikes out there yet. When they do start to flip, I imagine they will sell for a premium for a while, so if you want a FF, you'd have to pay. I've never understood Moots' high resale, but if I were shelling out for a new frame, especially if I regularly flipped frames, I'd certainly take resale values into account, which would push me towards a Moots, but in terms of ride, I've never beet let down by my Legend. I just need to wait for Dave T or Liberace to sell one of theirs.

A butted Ti frame from Hampsten is almost half the price of a Serotta. I and most of the buyers will go to a Hampsten 99/100 and the one didn't care. Common Serotta, Drop the price and some of the masses will buy otherwise good night now.

1centaur
02-20-2012, 10:01 AM
I think we saw from the changes that Serotta IS going after cost, so that's a start. What rings through this and many similar threads is that Serotta has failed to differentiate in a way that explains price - if they had succeeded, we would have seen many posters say, "yes they're more expensive but they're also doing X." Consumers just don't believe that Serotta is doing that much more/better than others who are cheaper. For example, excellent workmanship is perceived at many shops with lower price points.

And speaking of price, it's a very difficult thing to lower because the punters will read too much into it - they can't compete, they're cheapening the product, they're desperate, they're on their way out. Pricing is a sign of strength and cutting price is a sign of weakness, and the oh so analytical customer base can't stand weakness. How to cut price while convincing all that the quality is just as high and Serotta's not going anywhere, even if that is the simple truth? Ultimately, I think they need to try that route, but it won't be as easy as cutting prices and watching sales roll in.

As to why prices are that high in the first place? From my armchair, I'm guessing a combination of high costs and product positioning, both of which were supported in the pre-crisis economy, but then the tide went out. The necessary self-examination is painful and not instantaneous and success might not be the result. But I think we all want to see that success.

benb
02-20-2012, 10:31 AM
It's not even the prices it's that they've gone up so fast.. they have really skyrocketed in the last 5 years.. before that it didn't seem they were so outrageous.

My experience was not good overall.. I never wanted to mention it before when this was the Serotta forum.. I got sold the custom frame when I didn't need it, the fitter put me on the wrong size bike in a way that couldn't be fixed (top tube too long), and based on the marketing & knowledge I suffered through it for too long.. on top of that I was never happy with the finish as the decals were just too fragile for such an expensive bike.

I think there was something else going on such as paying healthcare and a living wage to the factory workers, but who knows how that compares to other small US companies..

But it's not just Serotta.. all the bike costs are insane. No matter what they are putting into the bikes it is incredibly flawed that they are costing as much if not more then motorcycles. The Ducati example is great as they are not very high volume.. ~40k units worldwide and apparently each bike carries nearly something like $750 in costs to fund racing.

Joachim
02-20-2012, 10:48 AM
Can they build the Ottrott with a level top tube?

bicycletricycle
02-20-2012, 10:59 AM
Can they build the Ottrott with a level top tube?
that is some serious thread drift

Nags&Ducs
02-20-2012, 11:08 AM
Since I sell 'em.

http://moots.com/our-bike/road/vamoots-rsl/overview

Moots has had it's best year ever, in 2011, for info.

Hey Peter, you know if I buy a new Moots, I will be dealing with you!

BTW, thanks for help with my Merckx questions!!

54ny77
02-20-2012, 11:16 AM
on the "perceived value" comments, i walked into an lbs a few weeks ago and saw a few $10-12k specialized somethingorothers on the floor. blew me away--if only because i haven't set foot in a shop like that in, literally, years. and to see a $12k bike sitting there a few feet away from a $199 kids' bike was a little weird. kinda like walking into a chevy dealer and seeing a $100k zr1 parked next to a used geo metro.

apart from the parts (dura ace, etc.), it made me wonder how much the per unit cost is on one of those kinds of production frames--specializd, trek, giant, etc. etc.

ergott
02-20-2012, 11:18 AM
Can they build the Ottrott with a level top tube?

Mine is.
:beer:

bicycletricycle
02-20-2012, 11:20 AM
on the "perceived value" comments, i walked into an lbs a few weeks ago and saw a few $10-12k specialized somethingorothers on the floor. blew me away--if only because i haven't set foot in a shop like that in, literally, years. and to see a $12k bike sitting there a few feet away from a $199 kids' bike was a little weird. kinda like walking into a chevy dealer and seeing a $100k zr1 parked next to a used geo metro.

apart from the parts (dura ace, etc.), it made me wonder how much the per unit cost is on one of those kinds of production frames--specializd, trek, giant, etc. etc.

thats a pretty good point, have the big boys pushed their prices up that high?

Joachim
02-20-2012, 11:21 AM
that is some serious thread drift

Apologies for drifting your thread. Legends are overpriced and so are the new Colnago C59 80th limited edition with Super Record EPS.

bfd
02-20-2012, 11:28 AM
With regard to Serotta, this is a company seems to be completely out of sync with their industry.

Their pricing is just stupid. You don't get to price your product based on your cost. Well you can price it, you just have trouble selling it.

In our business, a good product is distinguished in 2-3 measurable ways from the competition that matter to customers. This yields pricing power.

I don't think Serotta has pricing power at this point. They need to find a way to go after cost if that is what is driving the price. Remove the differentiation that doesn't matter to customers. But, could there be a component of pride in the pricing?

This is so on point, especially finding a way to "go after cost." For example, in another thread on finding a 1" threadless carbon fork, Mike Lopez responded that the OP look at Serotta forks. He said "They're not cheap of course cause they're made to order here in the states..."

At something like $650 before paint, the Serotta carbon fork is arguably one of the most expensive forks on the market. Could they not make them in "batches" to lower cost? I think that's what Reynolds, Easton and other fork mfrs did. (Granted those guys are all gone, so maybe that's not a good comparison...)

Nevertheless, uUnless, Serotta is truly building a "custom" forks with some kind of really weird sizing/rakes/stiffness, it just doesn't make sense to make forks "made to order?!" Then again, I have no idea how many forks Serotta makes. Maybe they're selling like *hotcakes* and getting the $650-800 per fork!

Those prices would definitely send me to Enve/Woundup or some other mfr. Good Luck!

Bruce K
02-20-2012, 11:28 AM
Wow, I had hoped we were past this desire to pile on Serotta.

I think this conversation has taken a better turn in the last post or too if we are going to examine the cost of all high end bikes but to continually focus on Serotta seems counter productive.

I think/hope we can do better.

I am going to lock this one and ask that we re-start the conversation in a new thread more along the lines of "Pricing of High End Bikes" or something more general.

BK

54ny77
02-20-2012, 11:29 AM
apparently they have. they were "venge" frames, built up however they were built up (i recall one being 7900, the other ultegra di2). they started around $9k and went up from there. it's been several+ years since i've been in a shop like that, so it was kind of odd to see all price points represented.

if you figure an avg. custom steel frame is ~$1k in just materials costs (ballpark, +/-), and maybe an alu. 7005 frame a bit less, then the rest of the charges we're used to seeing from custom builders are paint, labor, overhead, and hopefully a value-added upcharge for their expertise. so the $3.5-5k number often seen sounds about right.

if there are 10k venge's being pumped out annually, one would think the per unit cost has to be pretty attractive. obviously there's a huge infrastructure to support for a big company like specialized, so the markup has to cover all of that, plus profit.

thats a pretty good point, have the big boys pushed their prices up that high?

Bruce K
02-20-2012, 06:07 PM
Bump

Kontact
02-20-2012, 06:15 PM
I think Serotta Legends might be the most expensive ti road frame to produce:

Your basic Ti road bike starts with (usually) .89mm wall thickness 3/2.5 aviation hydraulic tubing and some custom turned/machined parts for headtube, dropouts, brake bridge, seat cluster etc. Paragon machine supplies most of those bits to the smaller guys.

Butted tubing is either lathe sanded down from the outside (Merlin, Seven, Spectrum, Feather, old Litespeed) or swaged (Serotta, Reynolds).

The tubes can also be shaped by swaging, twisting or compression. While they do this on stays, Merlin/Spectrum/Seven avoid cold working the tubes as much as possible, believing that cold working changes the ride character of ti tubes to their detriment. Some people say they're just being cheap, but Spectrum had 10 years of ABG production to take advantage of their swaging and compression dies and didn't use them.

Litespeed/Lynskey/Serotta are big on cold working manipulation, and have produced the most novel tube shapes. I have an old Litespeed with tapered tubes that are almost identical in profile to Legend/Colorado tubing. Reynolds also supplies internally butted tubes to anyone who wants to pay for them, but they come round.

Welding passes are also a potential labor cost. Lynskey does a single pass, others do a fusion then fill, or fill then smoothing.

Finally, there's bits and details. Is the seat binder welded or a collar? How complicated are the dropouts to machine and weld? Serotta has the most complicated dropouts and is the only company I've seen that lightens the BB shell by milling. (For the record, I think that welded bottle bosses are not always an upgrade. If the tubes are butted, that's putting a HAZ right in the middle of a really thin bit of Ti).


So, price aside, I do think that an all Ti Legend is the most labor intensive Ti bike available. Really complex machining on the dropouts and BB, very manipulated tubes in both shape and butting. Whether that is worth the extra thousands ($1000 more than a Helix, $1500 more than Seven Axiom SL, $2200 more than a Kish butted Ti) is up to the consumer, but I think the case can be made that there is more going on with the Legend.

gone
02-20-2012, 06:22 PM
I'm glad this thread has been reopened. Props to Bruce for doing it.

As I've read through it, I don't see any Serotta bashing. Instead, I see a lot of Serotta loyalists who are somewhat dismayed both by their inability to buy the current offerings and by Serottas inability to clearly articulate what their value proposition is.

For the record, I own four Serottas, in fact my forum ID was 4Serottas until Pete changed it in a fit of pique (which he was given to) because I had the nerve to criticize him over the closure and deletion of PSA threads. I love the Serottas I own but have to admit only one of them (a Legend ST) was a new one straight from the factory, the rest are used. I've also bought both an F3 and an S3 fork so I've supported the brand. I absolutely wish Serotta nothing but the best and will always have a warm spot in my heart for them no matter how it all turns out. My Legend ST has more miles on it than any of my other bikes and when I know I'm going to be doing several long hard days in a row, it always gets the call.

bicycletricycle
02-20-2012, 06:37 PM
in the case of seven i know that they use a cutter and not an abrasive to externally butt their tubes.

I certainly do think that your case for the legend is correct, they are probably the most labor intensive ti bike to make except for maybe a helix or a jones.

Seeing that legend pave makes me think that it might be worth it. All that work does yield a very compelling product.

maybe its a more to do with the way the pricing is laid out. I just purchased a bike with a lot of custom upgrades including a rack, stem, polished stainless lugs and crown, internal brake routing, fender fitment, internal generator routing, custom seat post, lightened bb shell, contrasting lug fills, matching pump, etc.

If i had seen the price at the beginning i may have had some sticker shock but since i ratcheted the price up myself it seemed all right.

Maybe their could be a base legend with just butted tubes and then a menu of options including tapered tubes and carbon parts.

Some kind of rapha inspired lifestyle advertising campaign would probably also help, maybe.

That white legend pave looks so good, build that bike with some record and berthound carbon fenders and i think most of us would be looking for a convenience store to rob for a quick 8k.

Kontact
02-20-2012, 06:44 PM
in the case of seven i know that they use a cutter and not an abrasive to externally butt their tubes.

I certainly do think that your case for the legend is correct, they are probably the most labor intensive ti bike to make except for maybe a helix or a jones.

Seeing that legend pave makes me think that it might be worth it. All that work does yield a very compelling product.

maybe its a more to do with the way the pricing is laid out. I just purchased a bike with a lot of custom upgrades including a rack, stem, polished stainless lugs and crown, internal brake routing, fender fitment, internal generator routing, custom seat post, lightened bb shell, contrasting lug fills, matching pump, etc.

If i had seen the price at the beginning i may have had some sticker shock but since i ratcheted the price up myself it seemed all right.

Maybe their could be a base legend with just butted tubes and then a menu of options including tapered tubes and carbon parts.

Some kind of rapha inspired lifestyle advertising campaign would probably also help, maybe.

That white legend pave looks so good, build that bike with some record and berthound carbon fenders and i think most of us would be looking for a convenience store to rob for a quick 8k.
I don't think a Legend with non-tapered tubes would be a Legend. Those bikes have a very particular ride, which likely comes from all that shaping.

If they wanted to lower some prices, they could offer a butted Classique.

I am curious if a non-ST Legends cost the full $5700. My recollection is that they do not.

thwart
02-20-2012, 06:47 PM
That white legend pave looks so good, build that bike with some record and berthound carbon fenders and i think most of us would be looking for a convenience store to rob for a quick 8k.

:banana: :banana: :banana: :banana:

bicycletricycle
02-20-2012, 06:53 PM
the hardest part of that build would b the brakes.

thwart
02-20-2012, 06:56 PM
Paul Racers in black.

bicycletricycle
02-20-2012, 07:13 PM
only if they had the proper integrated brazeons and cable routing, i hate adapters.

DOWN WITH ADAPTERS!!!!

thwart
02-20-2012, 07:33 PM
From the Paul site:

The Center Mount version features an additional bridge piece that runs between the pivots and allows the Racer Medium to mount to frames with a single brake mounting hole above the tire. The option is given for a shorter recessed bolt to work with modern frames, or a longer non-recessed bolt that works with older frames. In this setup the Racer Medium is a medium (or "standard") reach brake with a range of 47 to 57mm.

Pic:

http://prollyisnotprobably.com/assets_c/2012/01/IMG_5152-thumb-500x333-29257.jpg

54ny77
02-20-2012, 07:47 PM
velo orange grand cru brakes would look terrific on that bike, if they're your cup o' tea.

i hvae 'em and really, really like 'em. fits 25 tire and 35mm honjo just fine with a little room to spare.

the hardest part of that build would b the brakes.

bicycletricycle
02-20-2012, 07:47 PM
i know, i have some, but on a proper bike they should have integrated studs, IMHO.

93legendti
02-20-2012, 07:59 PM
I think this quote from e-RICHIE about the CSi is helpful.

it's not fair comparing serotta's csi frame or price with
steve rex. the company's timeline in developing the
tubing shapes, guages, and variations is unparalled in
the framebuilding industry - going back to the late 70s
when ben was the first guy to show frames with non
round pipes. none of us had the resources or the prodigious
output it would require to make that learning curve turn
into a straighter line. whether lugged or tigged, those
were always great frames and ahead of what many folk
were able to envision and/or produce.

i don't know the food chain involved in getting the correct
client specs to ny state for the build but if it can be done
(i'm sure it can be done) the result is still a steel frame
that is at the vanguard and, IMO, still a better frame
than 99% of the nonferrous ^&%$ that is imported or
made stateside.
e-RICHIE©™®


Comparing a Legend to a double butted (or less) Ti bike is not fair.
I've had Legends, Moots, Concours, Fierte Ti and a Litespeed Classic. I had the Legend, Moots, Concours and Fierte Ti at the same time and rode them with the same wheels, seats, posts, bars, bar tape, etc...
They rode differently. The Legend rode the best.

I'm sure someone who doesn't sell Serotta ti bikes loves what he/she does sell.

I'm also sure if a builder such as Richard Sachs extols the virtues of Serotta's tube manipulations and proclaims that they result in a "better" frame, it is for good reason.

Is the price worth "it"? That's up to each buyer. Can everyone tell the difference between a Legend and a competitor's Classique level bike? Maybe, maybe not.

e-RICHIE
02-20-2012, 08:14 PM
I think this quote from e-RICHIE about the CSi is helpful.




Comparing a Legend to a double butted (or less) Ti bike is not fair.
I've had Legends, Moots, Concours, Fierte Ti and a Litespeed Classic. I had the Legend, Moots, Concours and Fierte Ti at the same time and rode them with the same wheels, seats, posts, bars, bar tape, etc...
They rode differently. The Legend rode the best.

I'm sure someone who doesn't sell Serotta ti bikes loves what he/she does sell.

I'm also sure if a builder such as Richard Sachs extols the virtues of Serotta's tube manipulations and proclaims that they result in a "better" frame, it is for good reason.

Is the price worth "it"? That's up to each buyer. Can everyone tell the difference between a Legend and a competitor's Classique level bike? Maybe, maybe not.


Eh - that would be extolled rather than extols...

I posted that text in 2005 and, in part, because the then new forum sponsor was failing at blowing his own horn to the new arrivals here (then). After a chat or three with the mods, it was clear that someone had to do jump-start some brand love. My points of view remain the same; Serotta had a gig, and few others could match it. But the sentiment is dated. Look at this place now. It's here, and Ben is there. I hope he finds his way. He had a way back when we were all looking at his ability to mass produce (compared to what the rest of us were or could do...) some mighty fine frames. And that way was tethered to the materials and shapes he was able to bring to market (long before my text was posted, by the way).

Jason E
02-20-2012, 08:23 PM
I think we saw from the changes that Serotta IS going after cost, so that's a start. What rings through this and many similar threads is that Serotta has failed to differentiate in a way that explains price - if they had succeeded, we would have seen many posters say, "yes they're more expensive but they're also doing X." Consumers just don't believe that Serotta is doing that much more/better than others who are cheaper. For example, excellent workmanship is perceived at many shops with lower price points.

And speaking of price, it's a very difficult thing to lower because the punters will read too much into it - they can't compete, they're cheapening the product, they're desperate, they're on their way out. Pricing is a sign of strength and cutting price is a sign of weakness, and the oh so analytical customer base can't stand weakness. How to cut price while convincing all that the quality is just as high and Serotta's not going anywhere, even if that is the simple truth? Ultimately, I think they need to try that route, but it won't be as easy as cutting prices and watching sales roll in.

As to why prices are that high in the first place? From my armchair, I'm guessing a combination of high costs and product positioning, both of which were supported in the pre-crisis economy, but then the tide went out. The necessary self-examination is painful and not instantaneous and success might not be the result. But I think we all want to see that success.

I don't see them going after cost. The pricing RedRider came out with was what, $100 INCREASE?!?! Well it includes crash protection. Well for that price it better give me 24 months of insurance on my Flat Screen TV too.

The problem is not that they are not "this" enough or "that" enough, it's that they're not anything. Stale website, not even an offering for a level top tube, long caps between client interface.... They are not 'rapha', but through lack of attention they are barely Trek.

G-d I want them to clean slate, change model names and rip the competition a new one. When? When?

ergott
02-20-2012, 09:19 PM
Need product manager that gets the current lingo.

jpw
02-21-2012, 02:03 PM
Will Serotta do mounts for the Paul Racer?

Jeff N.
02-21-2012, 02:05 PM
I haven't checked their offerings since about 2007 when I took delivery of my Level 4 custom. Really nice frame. It has a nicely shaped 6-4 downtube. Great riding bike IMO. Still have it but I grab one of the others in my collection when I get a chance to go for a ride.
The main triangle of my Level-4 Custom is all 6/4, plus internal rear brake AND derailleur cable routing.

Marcusaurelius
02-21-2012, 02:36 PM
I think anything of quality is going to have a high price. You cannot buy an aston martin for the same price as a Kia. If you want an aston martin you have to expect to pay more.