H+Son TB14 rims

[Dromen]

Anyone have an opinion on H+son and/or their TB14 23mm rims? Bluish/Gray anodized look interesting.

[christian]

Lots of info across the hall. Summary is much heavier than A23, lower quality. So while they look good, they're not a great rim.

[Dromen]

I am fairly new here..."Across the Hall" ??

So your rec would be A23 or C2 Belguim? Do you have an opinion of these?

[echelon_john]

hey there,
do a quick search on a23 or c2, or use the search term 'wide rims'; lots of good info about these.

cheers,
john

[christian]

Across the hall (velocipedesalon.com) discussion on tb14s:

http://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum/f2/h-son-tb14-rims-available-yet-experiences-20318.html

A23s and C2s both get good reviews. C2s no longer available in 20h, but at 163lbs, I'd probably build up either as 24/28 regardless.

I have no first-hand experience, but I'm thinking about lacing up a set of 7700 hubs with A23s.

[Dromen]

im 185 these days and seems like all the time. bout 6/7 on the aggressive scale with 260 threshold. Recommend a hole count for this fatboy?

[echelon_john]

for everyday wheels, i'd put you on 28/28 on a23 or c2. i'd go a23 to save money and cut 50g/rim, and do brass nipples for long term durability.

cheers,
jc

[christian]

Yeah, I agree with John, 28/28 or, perhaps ideally, 28/32, if you can find hubs in that drilling. Always brass nips.

[oldpotatoe]

I am fairly new here..."Across the Hall" ??

So your rec would be A23 or C2 Belguim? Do you have an opinion of these?

I have build many A23, a few HED and gotta say, I think the A23 built better. It seemed to me that the A23 was rounder, flatter, when new. I know that's not shared by some here but IMHO. I think for the $, the HED would be a better build. Having said that, they both work well if built well. Just the A23 'seemed' a better rim when building(seen a lot of rims in 27 years, pretty easy to tell when building).

[oldpotatoe]

im 185 these days and seems like all the time. bout 6/7 on the aggressive scale with 260 threshold. Recommend a hole count for this fatboy?

32 hole, front and rear, DT Comps or Sapim Race, brass nipps, laced 3 cross thruout. Remember, A23 a light-ish rim and 4 spokes weigh 28-30 grams.

And 8 spokes weigh.........about 60 grams BUT a 32 hole wheel is a lot stronger than a 28, particularly on the rear for the mentioned 91,000 or so gram bike/rider. Why even consider a 28h rear? Why NOT do a 32 hole rear? Philosophical/wheel design questions I always have.

[jlwdm]

for everyday wheels, i'd put you on 28/28 on a23 or c2. i'd go a23 to save money and cut 50g/rim, and do brass nipples for long term durability.

cheers,
jc

The reports I have seen on other forums suggest the weight difference in the real world is a lot less than 50g.

Jeff

[echelon_john]

I've weighed about 20 C2s and 30 A23s and that's the average. As little as 30, as much as 65 (grams difference)

It's a small difference, but it's a good excuse to get folks on brass nipples if they're on the fence, especially if they're on the larger side. Part of the psychology of wheelbuilding! ; )



The reports I have seen on other forums suggest the weight difference in the real world is a lot less than 50g.

Jeff

[echelon_john]

Hi Peter,
I build pretty conservatively, and have lots of larger folks (225-250) on A23s with 32 spokes f/r.

I do think that the A23 can be overbuilt for small folks with too many spokes, and for folks like the OP (185) I've recommended either 28 heavier spokes (e.g. Sapim Race) or 32 lighter ones (Like lasers) with good results.

Agree that brass nipples generally have more upside than aluminum, although I have to say I've been REALLY impressed with the integrity and down-the-road serviceability of the Sapim alloy nipples. They seem as durable as brass in many cases, and I've been increasingly willing to use them.

All the best,
John




32 hole, front and rear, DT Comps or Sapim Race, brass nipps, laced 3 cross thruout. Remember, A23 a light-ish rim and 4 spokes weigh 28-30 grams.

And 8 spokes weigh.........about 60 grams BUT a 32 hole wheel is a lot stronger than a 28, particularly on the rear for the mentioned 91,000 or so gram bike/rider. Why even consider a 28h rear? Why NOT do a 32 hole rear? Philosophical/wheel design questions I always have.

[classtimesailer]

I was going to use them, but went tubular instead with Nemesis. If I build another set of clinchers, I'll probably use these. The coolest looking clinchers out there.

http://www.tracksupermarket.com/images/large/rim_hpluslow_02_l.jpg

[mistermo]

The coolest looking clinchers out there.
Agreed. And what are they?

[Joachim]

Agreed. And what are they?

Those are H+Son TB14.....

[sg8357]

In the shiny silver vintage rim category, there is also Gran Bois.
I've built one, very nice, pinned rim. 32 & 36 hole, no 40s.
Only has one sticker, that looks like a vintage Mavic.

http://www.compasscycle.com/Hubs.html

[bicycletricycle]

i just built a pair and they built up nice, the rim was really straight and no problems at the seam. havent ridden them yet.

[hiljentaa]

Have a set built with WI hubs on my road bike and another unbuilt set hanging in the garage. Dig 'em a lot. I don't worry about counting grams though.

[jds108]

Agreed. And what are they?

Those are the H+son rims. I built up a set and they were/are perfect. I don't have a set of A23s but do have a couple of other pairs of Velocity rims.

My pair of H+son rims are of higher quality (rounder, better finish level) then either of my Velocity wheelsets. All are good though - I'd buy Velocity again.

[Dromen]

Im a little confused....are HEDs less xpensive/better value?

:confused: I have build many A23, a few HED and gotta say, I think the A23 built better. It seemed to me that the A23 was rounder, flatter, when new. I know that's not shared by some here but IMHO. I think for the $, the HED would be a better build. Having said that, they both work well if built well. Just the A23 'seemed' a better rim when building(seen a lot of rims in 27 years, pretty easy to tell when building).

[beercan]

i think heds are a touch more expensive and the tb14s are def more then the velocities, i have tried the hed rims and next is the velocity a23 for me to try

[Liv2RideHard]

Have you considered Kinlin rims? I am considering the 30mm XR-300's for my current project. They make shallower (and lighter) versions too. I hear very good things about them.

[Dromen]

You just built the TB14 or the Gran Bois?

i just built a pair and they built up nice, the rim was really straight and no problems at the seam. havent ridden them yet.

[mandasol]

I have a set of the TB-14 in hard anodize on Dura Ace 7700 hubs and another set in the shiny polished finish on 5700 series 105 hubs. I also have some A23's on a set of new black record hubs and another set on 7700 hubs, and a spare rear on a 105 hub that I use on my trainer.

The A23 wheels feel a little stiffer (harsher?) IMHO, which may be good or bad depending on what you're looking for. The TB-14 are a little heavier, but when you're riding can't tell the difference in how they spin up as the overall wheelset is not even a couple hundred grams heavier - and I really find it hard to believe anyone would be able to tell a difference with couple hundred grams. I like how the TB14 feel on the road (at least how mine were built). Very smooth and comfortable, though not to imply that they're flexy.

A couple negatives though. The anodize finish is going to wear away eventually. Already, I must have gotten some kind of road debris on one of the brake pads because I have a silver engraving going all the way around on one side of the front rim. The silver polish is not much better because it's such a high polish bare metal that it's a finger print magnet and any handling at all is going to end up with smudges and when you try to wipe them down you get swirls in the polish that don't come out.

Also, the builder and I thought that since they were a heavier rim that it may be alright to use Sapim Lasers 32 front and rear for my 170lbs on the 7700 hubs. While the front seems perfectly fine with that build the back needed a little truing after just the few first rides, I'll have to see how it holds up with more mileage, and it may be fine after that first truing.

As far as a recommendation. I'd lean more towards the A23's for most purposes and they look better for a contemporary build. I still like my TB-14's for the classic looks and comfy ride they give.

[oldpotatoe]

Hi Peter,
I build pretty conservatively, and have lots of larger folks (225-250) on A23s with 32 spokes f/r.

I do think that the A23 can be overbuilt for small folks with too many spokes, and for folks like the OP (185) I've recommended either 28 heavier spokes (e.g. Sapim Race) or 32 lighter ones (Like lasers) with good results.

Agree that brass nipples generally have more upside than aluminum, although I have to say I've been REALLY impressed with the integrity and down-the-road serviceability of the Sapim alloy nipples. They seem as durable as brass in many cases, and I've been increasingly willing to use them.

All the best,
John

Sorry, don't get 'too many spokes', when you are talking about 32 vs 28 spokes. Guess I don't see the point of thin spokes, Revs or Lasers, when 32 hole for a 185 pound guy. Not sure what you are buying, certainly not a more reliable wheel and 32 Comps or Races certainly don't make the wheel 'heavy'.

I would never build a 32 hole A-23 wheelset for a guy that weighs 250 pounds, or 230 pounds, 'maybe' 200 pounds if he rides 'light'. Yes, i am conservative in my wheel design philosophy and most boil down to, what advantage does fewer spokes, thin spokes, light rims have?

Particularly for a 90,000 gram bike and rider? Why intentionally make the wheel less reliable in order to save 200 grams?

REVs vs Comps, 32 vs 28, a 450 gram rim vs a 420 gram rim....really don't want to see any of my wheelbuilding customers(about 100 customers per year), come in with a problem wheel because it wasn't designed well.

[jlwdm]

I've weighed about 20 C2s and 30 A23s and that's the average. As little as 30, as much as 65 (grams difference)

It's a small difference, but it's a good excuse to get folks on brass nipples if they're on the fence, especially if they're on the larger side. Part of the psychology of wheelbuilding! ; )


Saw a quote in October of an average of 456 for the C2s with all of the recent ones under 450.

Jeff

[ergott]

I have build many A23, a few HED and gotta say, I think the A23 built better. It seemed to me that the A23 was rounder, flatter, when new. I know that's not shared by some here but IMHO. I think for the $, the HED would be a better build. Having said that, they both work well if built well. Just the A23 'seemed' a better rim when building(seen a lot of rims in 27 years, pretty easy to tell when building).

Confused. Is this a type-o or do you mean better than the H+son rims?

The more A23s I build the more I'm impressed. They are more consistent than other Velocity rims I've used in the past. Weight is creeping up. The last pair I weighed was over 450g each. Not bricks, but not in the lightweight rim category for me.

[oldpotatoe]

Confused. Is this a type-o or do you mean better than the H+son rims?

The more A23s I build the more I'm impressed. They are more consistent than other Velocity rims I've used in the past. Weight is creeping up. The last pair I weighed was over 450g each. Not bricks, but not in the lightweight rim category for me.

Never seen a H+son rim. Talking about A-23(built many) vs the few HED rims I have built.

Like the A-23 and also the tubie version, Major Tom...

[Joachim]

Like the A-23 and also the tubie version, Major Tom...

How often do you get requests for Major Tom for road use?

[oldpotatoe]

How often do you get requests for Major Tom for road use?

Not a lot but have done a few sets. More for cross tho, GREAT rim for a cross tubular.

The wide rim gig doesn't really apply to a tubular. Putting a 22/23mm tubular on a wide tubie rim doesn't do anything to 'help' the ride. Ride's nice already.

[Joachim]

I guess with lotsa spokes the Escape makes for a pretty good road training rim...

[KidWok]

Reviving a very old thread...I had looked around here for feedback about the TB14 prior to getting them and wanted to chime in after building them up for the first time.

I picked up a used bike that came with 36h Record hubs and Mavic Reflex rims. I didn't want to run tubular and was looking for a clincher with similar ERD. The TB14's came up, but they were not available in the US with 36h drilling so I ordered direct from H Plus Son. Couldn't find a maximum tension online anywhere so I just built it up to 1200 nm on the drive side (measured with DT spoke tension meter). Rim showed no signs of strain around eyelets. Based on feedback here and from a buddy who is an experienced builder, I expected a challenge building with even tension. I was pleasantly surprised to discover otherwise. Was able to get them very true with minimal variation in spoke tension. The only other 36h rims I've used in the past are DT TK7.1's. That was awhile ago but I think these were actually as easy, if not easier, to build.

Tai

[donevwil]

In that last few months I received two sets of wheels from the same builder; 1) 28/32 A23/OC rear on WI T11 hubs, and 2) 36/36 H-Plus TB14 on NOS Campy Chorus hubs.

Not that an A23 and TB14 are really competitors, but both my and the builders opinions are that the TB14 is a much nicer rim in both appearance and quality (round, true, etc). The A23s appear to be fine for the pricepoint, but are not up to the quality of these TB14s, or HED C2s for that matter. Obviously the builds are not that similar and the TB14s are much heavier, but I prefer that wheelset by far. The big problem with the A23 is the OC rear. It's must be from an early (if not the first) production run and was one of the worst "new" rims in terms of roundness and bulging at the seam that the builder had ever seen. It's tubeless ready and has a significant hump on the inside ND side that requires 90+ PSI to have the tire bead pop into place even using tubeless tape (Veloplugs don't work on these OCs). A very time consuming if not difficult feature to accommodate while changing a flat 32mm tire out on the road. CO2 would help, but I'm not going that route for one silly rim.

[AngryScientist]

my dirt road wheel of choice!

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ufpP9g7Usfw/UgmMt8Q1eEI/AAAAAAAABXc/jtJrk5rw-Vw/s640/DSCN0012.JPG

[cachagua]

I'm also very happy with my TB14s. I built them on high-flange hubs, with (for me) pretty high tension, lightweight butted spokes, and they're lively and comfortable. I had to be reminded, in a post above, that they're a little heavier -- they don't feel like a "heavy wheel". And, they were easy to build. Look great on my old Merckx with gumwall tires. Harder to get tires on & off than an Open Pro, but I'll live with that.

I haven't used other rims with the exact same hubs/spokes/tires etc. so I can't say the rims are the only factor in how these wheels feel. But -- I like riding 'em.

[donevwil]

... they're lively and comfortable. ...they don't feel like a "heavy wheel".

Absolutely agree. I had forgotten how nicely short box section rims ride. My wheelset is pretty much the identical build of a Velocity Synergy set I have and it's no comparison, the TB14 have a better ride hands down.

[echelon_john]

I've been a big proponent of Velocity for a long time, and still am. Their rims and hubs are a huge value (esp their Race hubs). But as far as overall 'assembly' quality and finish quality, H+Son are nicer. They cost more, but they're definitely better finished, and feel solid in a way that the A23s don't. That said, A23s are just as durable in my experience--they're just a little rougher around the edges.

Nice to have choices!

[teleguy57]

I built a set 32 3x laced to Miche hubs for rougher stuff and CX. They are a little porky (510/512g respectively) but built up very nicely. Excellent finishing quality. Look a lot like my Nemesis:)

Here they are on my cheapo Performance house-brand CX frame which serves as my rain/gravel bike.

Haven't touched them since I built them. They're now shod with ULtremo ZX 28s (which measure out a hair over 29mm wide on these rims)-- very nice ride.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-G4dwqo_3HQw/UhKA4qYFHVI/AAAAAAAAB64/WIOBP2Scs-I/s912/DSC_0004.JPG

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-o2hyabDmtIo/UhKA3k8w5yI/AAAAAAAAB6s/uv2-AKCk34I/s912/DSC_0003.JPG

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-gZLQG-7vcJg/UhKA2QqfQ0I/AAAAAAAAB6c/1lsNuhVS60o/s912/DSC_0002.JPG

[phcollard]

What an excellent timing for this thread revival. I just borrowed a pair of TB14 from a friend and gave them the first ride today. I like them a lot. They look great on my Merckx, and well finished. They are quite comfortable too although I still have to play with the psi a bit. Been a long time since I used 23mm tires but it's all that I had so I mounted them, lowered the calculated psi by 10% and voilà... very nice ride! I can't wait to see how they roll with 25mm tires.

[phcollard]

I built a set 32 3x laced to Miche hubs for rougher stuff and CX. They are a little porky (510/512g respectively) but built up very nicely. Excellent finishing quality. Look a lot like my Nemesis:)

Here they are on my cheapo Performance house-brand CX frame which serves as my rain/gravel bike.

Haven't touched them since I built them. They're now shod with ULtremo ZX 28s (which measure out a hair over 29mm wide on these rims)-- very nice ride.


Looking great here, very nice ride. Are yours the hard anodized version or black?

[teleguy57]

Looking great here, very nice ride. Are yours the hard anodized version or black?

Hard anodized. Almost identical in color to Nemesis. They have a warm/bronze cast to them, although the late day lighting in the photos may show them a bit warmer than in real life. The nipples really are gold, though, so the color isn't off that much.

I really like the look of the hard anodized vs the black. They stop pretty well in the wet with KoolStop salmon pads on both the Tektro cantis and my Campy sidepulls.

[KidWok]

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c151/TaiLee77/20130819_182248_zpsb48b8d57.jpg

Just finished and out for a shakedown this evening. Front wheel built up easy as well. Moved some 25mm rubber over from the other set of wheels...completely changes the way this bike feels. I'm sold!

Tai

[Dromen]

Anyone have any experience with Pacenti PL23. Great classic box look with wide stance. Pacenti seems to have a very good rep here but most of the chatter covers their SL23 rim.

http://www.bikelugs.com/store/index.php?strWebAction=item_detail&intItemID=396

[Dromen]

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=123953

[Look585]

Just finished a polished TB14>DA7800 build. Rims were excellent, round and flat from the box. Polish is excellent, rim seam is nearly undetectable, brake track width uniform around the rim. I used Wheelsmith spokes (because they are the shiny-ist) and wow do these wheels sparkle in the sun.

I had forgotten how sensitive box section rims are to uniform tensions. With v-shaped rims (very radially stiff) you can have significant tension variation yet still have a round wheel(i.e. you can disguise a crappy build). Box section rims remind you to tension evenly. The correllary to this is that not-so-round v-shaped rims are difficult to get round during the build without compromising tension uniformity. Not-so-round box sections rims can be made much rounder without blowing out tension uniformity.

[MattTuck]

Just finished a polished TB14>DA7800 build. Rims were excellent, round and flat from the box. Polish is excellent, rim seam is nearly undetectable, brake track width uniform around the rim. I used Wheelsmith spokes (because they are the shiny-ist) and wow do these wheels sparkle in the sun.

I had forgotten how sensitive box section rims are to uniform tensions. With v-shaped rims (very radially stiff) you can have significant tension variation yet still have a round wheel(i.e. you can disguise a crappy build). Box section rims remind you to tension evenly. The correllary to this is that not-so-round v-shaped rims are difficult to get round during the build without compromising tension uniformity. Not-so-round box sections rims can be made much rounder without blowing out tension uniformity.

Would love to see a pictures of this build if you'd care to share.

[bicycletricycle]

I have some miles on these rims, I like them a lot, easy to build, no maintenance issues.

My tires are a real PAIN IN the ASS to take off, otherwise, great.

[mktng]

Yea. Heard only good things from the TB14's. Not the lightest, but definitely an awesome option. My reason is that they offer the TB14's in Gold.

I've run a few sets of H+Son 42mm Formation Face wheelsets in the past. Got one of the first batches of wheels they manufactured. H+ had a bad rep from the get go with cases of failed rims. But truthfully they were improperly used.

I have never had any problems with their products. So in my books. They are a great option! :)

[ColonelJLloyd]

I use them on my SS. They built up easily and the polished version passes the smell test well enough to look fine on a ca. 1950 frame.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8396/9021241550_cb42c9634f_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/51002114@N03/9021241550/)
Untitled (http://www.flickr.com/photos/51002114@N03/9021241550/) by ColonelJLloyd (http://www.flickr.com/people/51002114@N03/), on Flickr

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8138/9019011311_12d2bf1c83_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/51002114@N03/9019011311/)
Untitled (http://www.flickr.com/photos/51002114@N03/9019011311/) by ColonelJLloyd (http://www.flickr.com/people/51002114@N03/), on Flickr

[Scooper]

Gorgeous, Justin!

[bobswire]

I couldn't pass up this deal after reading some of the responses.I pretty much ride mavic open pros with 25c tires. I'll be looking forward to see how these ride with the 25's.

I think velomine has one set left. http://www.velomine.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=86_235_357&products_id=2111