Wheel Choices.

[Argos]

WHILE WE ARE WAITING ON PICTURES OF THE MYSTERY BIKE, JAMES.....

I thought we could maybe discuss this.

Not in terms of weight, but ride quality. Often people upgrade wheels, I collect wheels. I notice that for certain efforts or rides, different wheelsets make my bikes ride differently.

An example was a while ago, I had Bonty Race-X-Lites and Ksyriums. Both Tubular, both with the same Tires. The wheelsets had the same spoke counts fron and rear, still do, I believe. I percieved the Bonty Set to be smoother and have more of a glide (not in coasting, but in feel) as compared to the Ksyriums. The Ksyriums were a little more on rails. They livened up the ride of the same Frame. At the time this was on a 5900.

Now on the Serotta I have the Hyperons, which disappear underneath me, but sometimes for a smooth, but slightly more lively feel, I put on the "Training wheels" I had Ergott build for me. (no intentional plug, but he's a member and someone always asks "where'd you get them?") They are 32 hole Reflex Tubulars to Chorus hubs.

Ok, so the question is this:

Excluding the "these are my Race day wheels", Does anyone tune the ride of their bike by swapping wheels, with that in mind?

I had tried telling people to look at it like this when they buy wheels, but I think it's too abstract.

Thanks.

[Fixed]

agreeed.

[lnomalley]

all the time. daily even.

[Argos]

Sorry, I also should have added this:

What are the wheels you switch between, what ride properties do you favor the different wheelsets for, what bike are you riding them on, and do you find one wheelset truly compliments one bike rather then another?

[ergott]

Wheel tuning factors:
1 spoke count
2 spoke gauge
3 rim choice
4 lacing pattern

I still don't understand getting a full custom (insert bike name here) and slapping on a set of K's or other "out of the box" wheelset out there. You spend more money on a bike than most and tell the builder, I want it to ride like..., and then ruin a perfectly good bike with the above mentioned wheels.

ANY good wheelbuilder out there can match the performance, ride and price of those "fancy" wheels and almost every time, for less money.

Another major way to tune the ride of your bike is tire pressure. Almost everyone uses pressures that are too high. I weigh 175-180 and never go higher than 100psi. You would be amazed at the difference. They do NOT feel sluggish. They do not slow you down. In fact rolling resistance is lower because the tire is not bouncing over the pavement wasting energy. Most pros know this a do the same.

Hey Cees, what tire pressure do you see the pros riding at???

[vaxn8r]

Wheel tuning factors:
1 spoke count
2 spoke gauge
3 rim choice
4 lacing pattern

I still don't understand getting a full custom (insert bike name here) and slapping on a set of K's or other "out of the box" wheelset out there. You spend more money on a bike than most and tell the builder, I want it to ride like..., and then ruin a perfectly good bike with the above mentioned wheels.

ANY good wheelbuilder out there can match the performance, ride and price of those "fancy" wheels and almost every time, for less money.

Another major way to tune the ride of your bike is tire pressure. Almost everyone uses pressures that are too high. I weigh 175-180 and never go higher than 100psi. You would be amazed at the difference. They do NOT feel sluggish. They do not slow you down. In fact rolling resistance is lower because the tire is not bouncing over the pavement wasting energy. Most pros know this a do the same.

Hey Cees, what tire pressure do you see the pros riding at???

I think you oversate your case. Many so called "out of the box" wheelsets rock. I know this from experience. The DA 7800 is a almost a perfect all around wheelset (and so much better than the old DA wheelset). Not ultra light(1607g) but roll well, fast, semi-aero. I have K SL's and don't like them quite as well but they have their strengths. I don't see how you could call them a bad wheelset.

I've used boatloads of 32 spoke DA or Record hub laced to Mavic rims. Not one of those sets matches the aforementioned prebuilts in terms of weight or performance. In fact, I'd take a set of Campy Protons any day over a set of Campy/OP/light gauge 32spoke. No question. Protons are stiffer laterally, corner with more surety and offer about the same weight and use regular spoke nipples.

I know you can get great handbuilts but there's not a thing wrong with prebuilts. To me they are now the performance standard the "customs" shoot for.

[Argos]

See, I'mon the other side, but it may have to do with the fact that I'm on Tubulars. My 32h Classic Pro's (basically black Reflex) laced to Chris king Hubs, and built with Sapim Spokes, handle, in my opinion, better then the Ksyrium SL's.

That of course is the beauty of it, it's opinion, so we can discuss. But as for fact, they are over 100gm lighter then your Ksyriums. I look at them as Classic, bomb-proof, and fast.

[zap]

Snipped

Another major way to tune the ride of your bike is tire pressure. Almost everyone uses pressures that are too high. I weigh 175-180 and never go higher than 100psi. You would be amazed at the difference. They do NOT feel sluggish. They do not slow you down. In fact rolling resistance is lower because the tire is not bouncing over the pavement wasting energy. Most pros know this a do the same.

I'm around 172 and I do not like riding any of my bikes with tires pumped up to only 100psi. I don't like how the bikes handle. I don't like the ride. I just don't like it unless it's raining.

I usually keep my clinchers and tubular pumped at 115-120 psi. They roll better, handle better and none of this bouncy, bouncy ride when your out there hammering away.

I have yet to see a study show that tires roll better at 7 bar vs 8 bar.

[flydhest]

vax,

while a lot of what you write is true, there are a couple points. First, ergott didn't say that prebuilts were bad. OK, he said "ruin" the ride, but later said that handbuilts could basically replicate the ride. Given that he was extolling handbuilts, this doesn't really sound like he's calling prebuilts bad. That said, I agree with the "overstating" comment of yours. I think there are plenty of prebuilts that can complement a great bike. Not everybody needs a custom bike, not everybody needs a custom wheel. Indeed, I think the same sorts of considerations come into play. Really big guys, really small riders, they are the ones who can benefit the most from custom bikes or wheels.

The Dave Thomas wheels with velocity rims and white industry (I think) hubs that my wife has feel virtually indistinguishable from Campy Neutrons. We did some switching with Spectrum Bob (I was on my reflex tubulars, which I prefered to the other two, but I'm wierd and big).

I personally don't like any of the different Ksyria that I've ridden as much as any of my handbuilts.

On the other hand, the other examples you bring up are great wheels. I think the handbuilts actually have a fairly high bar to reach compared to the best prebuilts, given the hub/rim selection many of the prebuilts use to compensate for 10sp dish issues.

[ergott]

Ok, Ok, maybe I "overstated" ;) It's just that prebuilts cannot be everything to everybody. That's where the customs come in. The can be made cheaper, lighter, more reliable and many times, easier to service.

There.

As far as pressure is concerned, try it. If you don't like it then go back. Bottom line is tire pressure will change the way a bike rides drastically.

[Too Tall]

Argos first you are a person of discerning and refined taste, good looking too ;) Yes, emphatically YES and yes. I have 4 tubular tire wheelsets ranging from commuter wheels to all carbon stupid fast wheels and a some I won't mention.

All are setup with cassettes shimmed so that all I have to do is yank them onto the bike and go. I "tune" my ride ,as you say, depending on intended use and mood!

I gave my ultra distance phil wood OP clinchers to a friend who likes riding bricks and wife uses my other clincher set on the trainer....tells you what I think about that eh? In fairness to clinchers, a forum member sold me a very sweet set of DA / Velocity Aerohead wheels laced smartly and light...I'll use these for Ultras in the future. OMG did I say that?

You rock sir.

Clinchers suk

[flydhest]

Eric,

As I hope was clear, I'm in the handbuilt camp (just not dogmatically so). That said, I haven't seen a handbuilt in the 1100 gram range. What would go into that that is available and would be cheaper than the super light prebuilts?

[ergott]

Eric,

As I hope was clear, I'm in the handbuilt camp (just not dogmatically so). That said, I haven't seen a handbuilt in the 1100 gram range. What would go into that that is available and would be cheaper than the super light prebuilts?

Mine are 1130g. (edit)
Zipp 280 rims (303's)
DT Aerolites
DT 240s
28 hole 2 cross front and rear.

[LegendRider]

Rolf Prima Vigor (clincher) - used for fast, flat rides; crits; local group rides
Mavic Kysrium SSC (clincher) - old, with many miles; used for rain rides
Joe Young hand-built (DT rims, DA 7700 hub) - most comfortable wheels I own; used for Sunday afternoon spins
Hand-built Mavic Reflex tubulars with Tufos - used in the mountains of North Ga and this weekend on the Blue Ridge Parkway; best cornering wheels I have

[Fixed]

Bro those rolfs stiff enough for a crit? I think you'd like those reflex in a crit cos tubulars rock baby.Cheers

[LegendRider]

The Rolfs seem stiff vertically and more compliant laterally. The lateral flexibility seems to keep them firmly planted in corners - none of the "chattering" some Zipp (for example) riders experience. This, of course, is purely subjective opinion. I'd prefer a tubular version however.

[vaxn8r]

Bro those rolfs stiff enough for a crit? I think you'd like those reflex in a crit cos tubulars rock baby.Cheers
Are you kiddin? The Rolf Vigor is the perfect crit wheel. Stiff, aero, alum braking surface, light. You could argue a set of Reynolds or Zipps etc would be a bit lighter but then you're talking a lot more money.

[93legendti]

[QUOTE=ergott]...Another major way to tune the ride of your bike is tire pressure. Almost everyone uses pressures that are too high. I weigh 175-180 and never go higher than 100psi. You would be amazed at the difference. They do NOT feel sluggish. They do not slow you down. In fact rolling resistance is lower because the tire is not bouncing over the pavement wasting energy...QUOTE]

I agree.

[Fixed]

Yo Bro keep your hat on I'm glad you like those Rolfs arn't they the same thing as american classic with different spoke pattern?I know a.c. makes Rolf's hubs in Taiwan, and the rims come from there too not that there is anything wrong with that.Cheers

[LegendRider]

Rolf's hubs are no longer AC, they're White Industries.

Also, they're hand-built. I got a spec sheet that listed the builder and all the spoke tension numbers.

[Argos]

Legendrider,

What hubs on your reflex Tubulars?

Jason

[LegendRider]

DA 7700 (9 sp)
Mavic Reflex CD 32 hole
DT double-butted 14/15 spokes
Brass nips
Tufo Elite Road tubulars

[Fixed]

Sorry Bro thanks for the info. Cheers

[ada@prorider.or]

Hey Cees, what tire pressure do you see the pros riding at???[/QUOTE]

depands what kind of race

in the tour de france
10-12 bar

a too low tire pressure give chance of flat tyre
a it stays personal
some do 8 bar but that not so much
tyre´s at example conti tested a 30 bar
i seen this do not try this your selve you windows would
not hold this
and its tested with water
still its a big blow

[ergott]

Hey Cees, what tire pressure do you see the pros riding at???

depands what kind of race

in the tour de france
10-12 bar

a too low tire pressure give chance of flat tyre
a it stays personal
some do 8 bar but that not so much
tyre´s at example conti tested a 30 bar
i seen this do not try this your selve you windows would
not hold this
and its tested with water
still its a big blow

WOW :eek: That's 145-174psi for us Americans! I stand corrected if that's what Cees is seeing.

Thanks Cees,

[bcm119]

Agree about the Rolf Vigors. Granted this is the heart of Rolf Prima country but it seems like half the field is on Vigors at the local crit. I'd like to get on a pair myself.

[ergott]

Is the pressure you quoted for clincher or tubular or both?

Thanks,
Eric

[ada@prorider.or]

Is the pressure you quoted for clincher or tubular or both?

Thanks,
Eric
we due to the contruction of the rims the clincher are not so high
mostly to 8 bar

altough i my selve ride 9 bar
but clincher are very rare in pro peloton
mostly ride tubular and if they sponsered by a clincher manufacture the label the tublular so that you harldly can see it

good examples are michlin and vredestein that both did not had any tubular (they now make tubulars)
and i had with both a big discussion they said clincher is as good as tubular , but thats not right tubular is far better in racing situations so they ask my why the pro's would ride the tubular i said we take a test we go decending a mountain take let say the galibier
then on top of the mountain we pinch with a needle the tyre the we start decending the one that come's down alive has right.
they never did the test!
this becuase if you have a flat tyre in pro peleton and are decending you dropped and the tyre will rap up the wheel or you miss a turn and cannot handle the bike
with tubular its also dangerous! but at least the tyre stays on the rim becuase its glued

this is one example but the comfort is far better with tubular its round where clincher is square
and there is more air in tubular then in clincher
and you have a better road contact with tubular

[Too Tall]

Cees, I've talked with my lawyer and instructed to include you in my will :)

[Fixed]

All the old racers know tubulars are way better.in every way.Now we have it from the man.Cheers, Cees

[znfdl]

For my Spectrum Ti, I have 3 sets of clincher wheels. Yes, I ride clinchers, as I do a fair amount of solo 100+ mile rides.

The three wheelsets are:

CXP33 mated to a Record Hubset
Mavic Ksyrium SL
Nimble Spider 28 front, 32 rear

I hardly ever use the CXP33,s except when I commute on this bike.

I use the Ksyriums for training.

I use the Nimbles for Events and 100+ mile rides in the mountains

My favorite wheels are the Nimbles, the feel more lively that the Ksyriums, are lighter and accelerate better.

[bostondrunk]

All the old racers know tubulars are way better.in every way.Now we have it from the man.Cheers, Cees

agreed. but people still drop 10k on a new serotta without even thinking of putting tubies on it....don't know what their missin...

[ergott]

agreed. but people still drop 10k on a new serotta without even thinking of putting tubies on it....don't know what their missin...
Or worse, put K's on ;) :D ;)

[bostondrunk]

Hard to beat a deal like this on great tubie rims (especially if you have a 20% off code!). Throw them onto Ultegra/Chorus hubs for a wheelset much better than Ksyriums, etc.

http://www.nashbar.com/profile.cfm?category=113&subcategory=1128&brand=&sku=12746&storetype=&estoreid=&pagename=

[Spicoli]

Going with the main theme of Argos original post, I have ten frikken (im an idiot) wheelsets hanging in my garage and each has its own purpose. You got your carbo speed at all cost wheels, your oh crap I have to race in the rain wheels, sittin in hoping for a sprint wheels, trainin tubs, ect... Each completly changes the ride and feel of a bike. All are hand made minus the carbo jobs and IMO the best most comfortable wheel you can ride is any low profile old school hoop w/ a conventional build (AmbrosioF20,Fir,gels,skinny hoops). Handle the best, smoothest and corner like champs same rotational wieght of a carbon hoop. Oh yeah you can build them for dirt and of the five I have in this range none wiegh more than 1450gr. and two are in the 13's all cost less than $300 bucks to build up. A bike is a tool and wheels even more so, with regard to right wheel for a sppecific pupose. FYI all are tubs minus two, and they really only get riddin if its a solo ride with rain or just after when chance of flats and tire slices go way up.

On a different note but with the same theme I recently put another saddle on my go fast bike and what a change in ride that was. I have strictly been using Turbomatic 4's for I dont even know how many years, I have a stockpile of them. For shiits and gigggles I put an slr on and it feels as if Im on a completly different bike. The slr is comfortable as far as fit goes,(hits everything in the right spot) but talk about transmitting more from the road to your arse. totally changed the ride for the worse, still love the bike but wow is it smoother with the turbomatic. I can get back on the slr a bit easier and its saving almost a pound from the other so it will probably stay considering the bike its on, but total tranformation. If you ever test ride a potential new bike take this into consideration and the same way you have extra wheels why not have extra seat/post combo's for specific purposes? Pull one out throw the smooth or light one in. Am I way off with this line of thought?

More is always better isnt it!!??

[Fixed]

You sir sound like a wise man. Cheers

[Argos]

I agree completely. I suggest this approach to people that can not yet afford a TT or Tri bike. I say, get a separate Seat and seatpost with your TT position, this way you do not lose your dialed Road position.

And back to wheels, you are not alone, I have 10 sets. :bike:

[Too Tall]

Spicoli, your net worth just went up a notch....wanna get a room! 10 sets of wheels, hmmm. NICE :)

I have a new set of 32 hole Phil Track hubs coming next week and a pile of old school rims. Guess what I'll be doing soon ;)

Watch it Spicoli...I'm closing in on you!

[Spicoli]

between that post and now, the man in brown dropped off my new Hed stingers OH BOY OH BOY im gettin the glue out!!! They look tuff gotta go!!! let ya know later.

[Fixed]

Phil Woods great jazz sax man .Cheers( his hubs are cool too)

[Too Tall]

Ba$tard @#$%@#$

Hey, let us know how they work out. Pretty unusual wheelset and I don't know anyone racing them...yet that is.

[The Spider]

Just got a set of tough, fast customs made up...Ambrosio Excellight 32h, Sapim CX-Ray spokes and DT Hugi 240s hubs.

The hubs just glide and are so smooth, I can tell the difference between the Hugi 240s and the other hubs in my collecetion (ultegra, mavic K, Chris King, Hugi 240). Magnificant product.

Now I'm thinking of a 240s hub 28 spoke, CX-ray spoke into a zipp rim....anyone have any experience with the rims...always sounds like Zipp have quality control issues; people seem to love/hate the wheel sets.

[Too Tall]

Ayi yi yi. I am trying to buy a set of arc enciels (330) and some Velocity Pros (just like Deep Vs but for tubulars) for the Phil Track wheelset build. I re-examined my stash of rims and all the good ones are 36 hole....so much for the ergals :( No worries, I'll lace the ergals to some sweet old campy high flange hubs for my dear Queen so she can join me at T town next season. Wait til you get a load of her track bike....1957 Frejus. DOH!

Back to searching for something aero and strong to race at T town. A shopping we will goooooo.

PS - ISO 11.4 Anybody still communicate with him?

[Spicoli]

Just got a set of tough, fast customs made up...Ambrosio Excellight 32h, Sapim CX-Ray spokes and DT Hugi 240s hubs.

The hubs just glide and are so smooth, I can tell the difference between the Hugi 240s and the other hubs in my collecetion (ultegra, mavic K, Chris King, Hugi 240). Magnificant product.

Now I'm thinking of a 240s hub 28 spoke, CX-ray spoke into a zipp rim....anyone have any experience with the rims...always sounds like Zipp have quality control issues; people seem to love/hate the wheel sets.
If I was ever to gush over a clincher rim, it would be over the excellights. They build so easy and are bullet proof. Such a qaulity rim, especially when you compare it to an OP. Lighter, stronger, cheaper, if there was a perfect set of clinchers I think you just built them. My set is around 1550gr. with D/A 7700's and Wheelsmith XL14's minus driveside.

As far as building onto Zipp hoops, If it were me I would go for the 404 hoop. I have had them both and was not a big fan of the 303, but the 404 is a champ. If light weight is the priority and you dont want a 404, think about doing an Ambrosio chrono F20. It is around the same weight of a 303, strong as hell and only will cost you about $40 bucks each US. The shallower Zipp is not all that aero and with the F20 you get an aluminum braking surface. I have a couple of sets of F20's and they go uphill just as well as anything out there and they spin up in a sprint stupid fast.

[Fixed]

Once you have a good fit on your bike .wheels are the greatest I'd rather have lots of wheels than a couple of bikes with no extra wheels.wheels are cool i.m.h.o. Cheers

[Argos]

I'm a big fan of the 303 rims (Zipp's designation for the rim is "the 240").

I have a set of 303's I use for circuits where I may actually stand a chancein a sprint (should I ever get my timing right) and a set built up to 7800 series D/A hubs for.... well, nothin'! I just like 'em

As for Zipp durability, I think they are very, VERY good. I have friends, that like myself, own numerous wheelsets, wwith good portions built using Zipp rims.

I did a 'cross race with a set of 303's and the guys marking the curbs forgot one which was covered in leaves. I hit that SOB so freain' hard! I was sure I had a front flat. But as I went up the hill to the support area, nothing. I did 8 more laps. When I finished, I went back to the shop to clean my bike. Sure enough, there was a crack in the breaking surface, but no catastrophiic failure, I was able to finish my race (placing well for myself), and Zipp has a crash replacement program second to none. As well as a great warranty dept. And any Open Pro would have been destroyed with the force I hit that curb, as I had my PSI at about 25-30. I know for two reasons. when I hit, it was hard enough to hurt in my formerly broken collarbone (anyone that's done this knows what I mean) and two other guys that day trashed wheels on the same curb.

Zipp? Nothing finer.

[The Spider]

Also guys...I'm using clinchers, so the f20 is out (that's the lox profile tubular isn't it)...and that means a Zipp 415(I think), one advantage is a nice aluminium brake track however...

when Zipp call there rim a 245/280 (as an example) the only difference is the smaller number is a 650c and the larger is 700c, correct?

Also Ambrosio are bloody hard to find down here and VERY expensive, 'bout 50% more than an OP. If anyone knows a store in the states that stocks Ambrosio, please drop me a line! My mate needs me to build him up a replica of my new wheels.

I agree with the folks on this site...you cannot ride a Parlee and put K's on it...it just doesn't feel right!

[Spicoli]

Also guys...I'm using clinchers, so the f20 is out (that's the lox profile tubular isn't it)...and that means a Zipp 415(I think), one advantage is a nice aluminium brake track however...

when Zipp call there rim a 245/280 (as an example) the only difference is the smaller number is a 650c and the larger is 700c, correct?

Also Ambrosio are bloody hard to find down here and VERY expensive, 'bout 50% more than an OP. If anyone knows a store in the states that stocks Ambrosio, please drop me a line! My mate needs me to build him up a replica of my new wheels.

I agree with the folks on this site...you cannot ride a Parlee and put K's on it...it just doesn't feel right!
Try Ital-tecno.com or some combination of that. Cool guy's somewhere on the US/Canada border. Although I have no idea what shipping would be for you.

[The Spider]

Bloody brilliant, less than of the half the price I paid!