Ti bike for a extra small rider?

[mwos]

I'm looking to build a custom frame. Last year I had a Serotta fit done on my current frame and because I'm small, 5'1" and 100lbs, have short arms and short femur, the fitter said the only way I can get optimal fit is to build a custom frame.

On my current frame I had to raise the handlebars 4cm to get the correct reach and my saddle is as forward as it will go, even with a zero degree seatpost.

The problem is my current frame is a wonderful CF frame, which I love dearly but my needs have changed which is why I'm looking for optimal fit in the frame.

The only material the lbs says is comparable to my frame in stiffness and shock absorbation is Ti.

My choices of companies with this LBS are Seven, Titus and Serotta.

I'm comfortable with this LBS because they fitted my mtn bike, are Serotta fit trained and other women in the area recommend them.

Since it is very difficult to find any bicycle in a material other than aluminum to demo I'm nervous about building a frame without ever riding it first. Also, the geometry I need is way out of the realm of a stock frame.

I don't know any other small riders who ride ti and am pretty nervous about building a frame without ever knowing what it feels like.

For what its worth, I did demo a Serotta Fierte steele frame in a 46p and it felt pretty good. Actually the fitter I worked with thought this was the closest in a stock frame I could get. However, the ride reminded me of the harshness of my Cannondale frame and I'm way beyond that!

Any thoughts?

Thanks

[Peter]

If the fitter said the only way to get an optimal fit was through a custom frame, then why do you love your current frame so much? It must fit prettly well itself, no?

You haven't said WHY you're looking for a new frame. This would help.

It sounds like you haven't owned very many bikes, so you don't have much experience with qualities you've discovered you like/dislike i.e., tube lengths, angles, etc.

Without this background, the only thing you have to go on is the fitting done by your dealer. This, and your current frame, are the benchmarks. You're going to have to trust the numbers the dealer has provided and have the frame constructed. Document the specs for both frames and keep them on file. In a few years you'll be able to compare the two and determine whether you're still in search of a better fitting frame or you're content with what you have.

That's how most of us here found what works; a little science, a little trial and error, and a little cash...!

[e-RICHIE]

The only material the lbs says is comparable to my frame in stiffness and shock absorbation is Ti.



at 5'1" and 100lbs, you do not have to worry about these qualities.

[mwos]

At 5"1" there aren't many options. There's lots of bike I would love to have if I were bigger. Over the years my bikes have gotten smaller and smaller.

I got tired of being beat to death by alumimin so I bought the CF frame in 2000. The frame fits fine but I started riding more days in a row and I started having neck and shoulder pain (I had surgery for a torn rotator cuff). I did five tours last year on this bike and because I had a knee injury I decided to have a Serotta fit done so I didn't aggravate the shoulder or knee on these tours.

It turned out the frame (tt length and standover, choice of handlebars, cranklength etc.) was perfect but because I have short arms the handlebars were too low. I had to raise the handlebars 4cm to get the correct handlebar height and because of a short femur even with a zero degree seatpost I'm as far forward on the saddle as you can go.

The frame is a 44cm frame with a 75 degree seat angle on 650c wheels.

The original CF steerer tube was cut so I had to get a new fork which changed my wheelbase and affects the handling. From what I understand the max you can raise handlebars on a CF steer tube is 3 cm so I had to get a stem that has a 1cm rise (I think) to compensate.

I was told by the company I bought the bike from that I would have handling problems if I changed the fork. However, when I ride on the roads I don't notice it much but I've moved and ride in areas that often require sharp turns and thats when I notice the difference, the handling is very unstable and I get off the bike to make the turn

I love the feel of this frame and the adjustments have helped the fit tremendously but I guess I'm a perfectionist, after 25 years of riding I just want a frame that fits me in all ways and rides well!

The Serotta fitter told me that the best frame for me will have a steeper seat tube, longer head tube and a wheel base that accomodates those. In their opinion there is no stock frame on the market that fits those recommendations!

[Tailwinds]

I have a friend who is 4'10" and bought a custom Merlin. It's about a 43cm, I think. She really loves it, esp. after riding a Cannondale and then a Trek (46cm) that didn't fit her right. If you want carbon, I think Aegis makes custom, small bikes? Also, you might want to check out Calfee. I don't imagine you'll have a problem w/a frame not being stiff enough. Too stiff, maybe, but not stiff enough -- hmm. Steel is a fine material in the right hands. David Kirk can take your Serotta fit measurements along w/your tastes and desires and build you a beautiful, steel bike that rides the way you want it to. Check out the latest Kirk's in the custom bike gallery on this forum.

Good luck!

[mwos]

at 5'1" and 100lbs, you do not have to worry about these qualities.

The bike shop says my current frame is a stiff frame. I thought the old Cannondale was stiffer but the CF frame climbed, descended and was more responsive. The difference is the CF frame asorbs the road shock, the Cannondale didn't.

I'm more concerned with how well a material asorbs the road shock than stiffness. The smaller the material, the stiffer the frame, which makes me reluctant to move away from CF.

[Tailwinds]

Oh, after reading your last post I thought I should add this:

You can go to kirkframeworks.com and read all about rake, trail, forks, handling, etc. It's very interesting stuff, and he'll take the time to explain it all to you over the phone, too. He's a very patient man. He answered all of my silly questions and listened to me as if he had all the time in the world (which I know he doesn't -- his order list is growing as we type). There is a pic somewhere on his site of a VERY tiny, pink bike that he made for a woman w/a small build... it's the "Hello Kitty" bike... pretty cool.

[mwos]

Thanks Tailwinds,
My current bike is an Aegis Swift, see my problem. I talked to the owner today and they are now making the Victory in women's sizes but I don't think the issue of the head tube is resolvable without doing custom.

[Louis]

The original CF steerer tube was cut so I had to get a new fork which changed my wheelbase and affects the handling.

This is just a tiny detail, but why weren't you able to replace your original fork with one having the same bearing race to dropout distance and trail? I would think that you should have been able to match the original wheelbase exactly and get still get a longer steerer tube.

[mwos]

Oh, after reading your last post I thought I should add this:

You can go to kirkframeworks.com and read all about rake, trail, forks, handling, etc. It's very interesting stuff, and he'll take the time to explain it all to you over the phone, too. He's a very patient man. He answered all of my silly questions and listened to me as if he had all the time in the world (which I know he doesn't -- his order list is growing as we type). There is a pic somewhere on his site of a VERY tiny, pink bike that he made for a woman w/a small build... it's the "Hello Kitty" bike... pretty cool.



I asked Aegis about custom, the reply was "it would cost bigggg bucks" sounds like more than I plan to spend!

BTW, I just moved to Denver in Nov. Our other house has a contract so I can now think about my new bike. I will check out Kirk.

[mwos]

This is just a tiny detail, but why weren't you able to replace your original fork with one having the same bearing race to dropout distance and trail? I would think that you should have been able to match the original wheelbase exactly and get still get a longer steerer tube.

When I bought my bike the company was making their own forks, they've stopped doing that so I had to buy from another company. I got a Reynolds Ouzo fork which they currently put on their frames but this is what they told me and they didn't recommend anything different. There doesn't seem to be a change in geometry from 00 to 04. I'm currently emailing the owner about another matter I'll ask him that.

I played around on my mtn bike tonight and the handling does feel better on the mtn bike than the road bike.

[mwos]

If the fitter said the only way to get an optimal fit was through a custom frame, then why do you love your current frame so much? It must fit prettly well itself, no?

You haven't said WHY you're looking for a new frame. This would help.

It sounds like you haven't owned very many bikes, so you don't have much experience with qualities you've discovered you like/dislike i.e., tube lengths, angles, etc.

Without this background, the only thing you have to go on is the fitting done by your dealer. This, and your current frame, are the benchmarks. You're going to have to trust the numbers the dealer has provided and have the frame constructed. Document the specs for both frames and keep them on file. In a few years you'll be able to compare the two and determine whether you're still in search of a better fitting frame or you're content with what you have.

That's how most of us here found what works; a little science, a little trial and error, and a little cash...!

Peter,
I've been riding since 1980. The bike that fit me the best was a Fuji mixte frame, 19". When mtn biking became popular I bought a Giant 14" frame but way to long tt. In 94 I bought a Cannondale road bike 48 cm way to big, in 95 Cannondale came out with a compact, bought a 47cm better also bought a Voodoo mtn bike that year, much better fit. Unfortunately, Voodoo shortened the tt but forgot about seat tube angles and head tube angles. In 2000 I bought my current road bike but the LBS missed the boat because he was used to fitting average men and racers ( I trained them on needs for small riders). 2003 I bought a Titus mtn bike, closet fit I ever had.
Its rare to find a bike beyond Trek, Cannondale or Specialized in my size to even demo and most riders are to big for me to try their bikes.
All my cycling life has been trial and error with more error than hits.

Welcome to the world of small people!

[Louis]

I played around on my mtn bike tonight and the handling does feel better on the mtn bike than the road bike.

I don't know nearly as much about MTBs as road bikes (and precious little about those compared to some others here) but I have ridden an MTB or two, and there's just no way the handling of an MTB should be "better" than a road bike. I guess it in part depends on how you define "better", but as far as handling on the road, turns, etc, the road bike should be vastly superior. In my experience MTBs handle more like trucks. That's not bad. The're just designed to do different things.

[Tailwinds]

I agree w/Louis.

Check your private messages.

[dirtdigger88]

Maybe I missed it but I didnt see where she said the MTB "handled" better- I read the MTB "fit" better- I can see that-

MTB's have serious slope to them- especially some of the Titus' that Ive seen- Re read the posts- the 47- 48s were too big- or they kept "big person" angles (sorry I couldn't help that one)

Im not going the try and tell you what you need beyond this- You need a fitter and/ or builder who understands small bikes and who understands women (in the riding way not in the "life" way- cuz lord knows no can understnd women- sorry again ;) )

You have already seen what harm CAN be done- and you heard it right from e-richie (one of THE top frame builders of our time) you dont have to worry about stiffness and dampening-

Jason

[mwos]

When I bouht my mtn bike last year I checked the geometry very carefully. Titus is one of the few companies that build the small frames with small persons angles. Excluding Trek, Cannondale and Specialized.

It was the Titus that started the issues with the road bike, plus the injuries. After I started riding it then the road bike didn't feel right, thus the fitting.
My Voodoo always feels a little heavy and clunky compared to the road bikes but man that Titus is a real joy to ride.

[Sandy]

If you like carbon so much, why not get a carbon custom bike? Calfee, Parlee,....


Sandy

[Serpico]

Good luck mwos, glad to see you posting here :cool:

[OldDog]

My wife is 4' 11". In 2000 I had built for her by Spectrum (Tom Kellogg) a custom frame. We went in for steel, Tom talked us out of it, no tubes were readily available in gauges to give us the comfort she was seeking, small frame and all. This may have changed today. We went with ti, me wanting the "extralight" tube set. Tom again recommended against that, adding there would be no benefit in ride comfort in that small al frame for the extra $400 or so.

She ended up with a Spectrum ti Custom, size ?, it's small. Compact design frame and 650 hoops. The fit keeps her happy, she loves the ride. Paint with clear clear coat is very nice.

Investigate what Spectrum has to offer if ti is your material of choice.

[zap]

mwos-have you tried a road bike with 650c wheels?

My wife is a tad taller than you and has a custom 650c Serotta (see pics under Serotta-Zip). I still remember her first ride on the Serotta and how quickly she went through turns. She was right behind me! Her previous bike was a Trek 2300 carbon with 700c wheels and she had a hard time getting the bike to lean over to zip through turns. She never had the confidence on any 700c bike to go through turns quickly.

I suspect you might be seeing this advantage to some degree with your Titus mtb. Just picture a 650c roadie with proper geo that handles that much better still.

Frame stiffness is a concern for small bikes as well. Many times frames can be to stiff for smaller, lighter riders.

So on that note, I would not rule out a nice custom steel frame.

By the way. Dave Kirk came up with the geo for my wifes Serotta when he worked with the crew in NY.

[flydhest]

slowgoing, zap, and the others are making a lot of sense. If you can swing it, a custom 650 would be a great thing. The discussion about materials is, as e-richie pointed out, a bit misleading in this case. It's not that you liked carbon more than aluminum, it's that you liked the Aegis more than the cannondale. Serotta has made lots of good small-person bikes. Dave Kirk did the one on his site for dbrk's paramour and has designed others as zap points out. Those seem like good starting points. Talking to the designer for such an out-of-the-ordinary frame is a good thing. If you were close enough to see Tom Kellogg at Spectrum, that would also be a great thing. Having talked to Kelly (designer at Serotta) Dave Kirk, and TK, I would be shocked if any of them would do anything less than be able to make the bike of your dreams. They are each great guys who explain what they can get a bike to do in clear terms.

[mwos]

Thanks for all your suggestions, btw, I do ride 650c wheels, nice little American Classic Sprint 350's.

Anyway, I'll post more later, a car hit our house in the middle of the night and since I didn't get much sleep, I'm running out of energy.

[ThylacineCycles]

My wife is 4' 11". In 2000 I had built for her by Spectrum (Tom Kellogg) a custom frame. We went in for steel, Tom talked us out of it, no tubes were readily available in gauges to give us the comfort she was seeking, small frame and all. This may have changed today.

Well, I don't agree with this at all. In fact, I'd suggest the opposite - The range of steel tube diameters and butting profiles far outstrips that of Ti, meaning there's probably a better chance of ride-tuning a frame for a smaller rider in that material.

A nice sloping top tubed steel frame with 650c wheels is great for the smaller rider. That's not to say Ti isn't viable - of course it is - but that's more of a budgetary decision rather than a logistical one, IMHO.

[Peter]

Thanks for the additional info. You have enough experience to be able to articulate your desires to ANY framebuilder. You just have to find one who's confident in building small bikes.

Don't focus on the material. I'd bet the house you can get the same comfort from a steel frame without it being a noodle. It's definitely imperative, due to your stats, and your experience, to have a custom frame. Since you're in Denver, why not visit Lennard Zinn in Boulder. He's sponsored a women's team for years so I would imagine he's had plenty of experience fitting smaller riders.

http://zinncycles.com/bikes.aspx?bike=road

[Smiley]

If all else fails can you say BIKE FRIDAY :banana:

Smallest Serotta I sold just recently, 38 cm ST sloped , Virtual is 45 cm , STA is 72.5 degree's with a 49 cm TT Virtual . 650 wheels .Plus due to short reach we used a MTB straight bar with a 5 degree sweep . Lady your not short by any means . Oh yes we also used a seat back seat post , had about 1.2 cm of toe over lap too boot .

[e-RICHIE]

If all else fails can you say BIKE FRIDAY :banana:

Smallest Serotta I sold , 38 cm ST sloped , Virtual is 45 cm , STA is 72.5 degree's with a 49 cm TT Virtual . 650 wheels with Reynolds 40 mm rake fork .Plus due to short reach we used a MTB straight bar with a 5 degree sweep . Lady your not short by any means . Oh yes we also used a seat back seat post , had about 1.2 cm of toe over lap


odd-to-wierdly-odd that a frame that small had a
seat angle that leaned so rearwards. what is up there?

[Smiley]

Brooks saddle and yes I check and re-checked for that seat angle . I agree I would have never believed it to be right either . Client is tickled pink .

[e-RICHIE]

Brooks saddle and yes I check and re-checked for that seat angle . I agree I would have never believed it to be right either . Client is tickled pink .


but do you believe it to be right?
pink is cool.

[ThylacineCycles]

but do you believe it to be right?
pink is cool.

Geez, Orange is the new pink was the new black, didn't ya know? :cool:

Currently I gotta say, I can't make judgements on one number randomly plucked from the geometry soup. I want to know what seat you're running, and how far back behind the BB you need to be. Then the STA is dictated by where the seat rails are located in space and which seatpost you want to run.

That seat angle is odd for a small rider, fesure, but might not be completely out of the question.

[e-RICHIE]

Geez, Orange is the new pink was the new black, didn't ya know? :cool:

Currently I gotta say, I can't make judgements on one number randomly plucked from the geometry soup. I want to know what seat you're running, and how far back behind the BB you need to be. Then the STA is dictated by where the seat rails are located in space and which seatpost you want to run.

That seat angle is odd for a small rider, fesure, but might not be completely out of the question.


yes you can make judgements; that's why they pay you the
big bucks. you know from all the frames/designs that came
before today's that it is counterintuitive to believe that a
frame that small and an angle that shallow would allow
a rider to sit in that spot we all call e-FISHENT. fwiw,
i don't think saddle type would skew this judgement at all.

ps i saw the mtv awards too and chris rock
proclaimed hisself to be the new black.

[Samster]

yes you can make judgements; that's why they pay you the
big bucks. you know from all the frames/designs that came
before today's that it is counterintuitive to believe that a
frame that small and an angle that shallow would allow
a rider to sit in that spot we all call e-FISHENT. fwiw,
i don't think saddle type would skew this judgement at all.

ps i saw the mtv awards too and chris rock
proclaimed hisself to be the new black.

"hisself." that's good.