Bicycle Purchasing Pyschology - We've Been Duped

[samsays]

Recent evolution of the high-end cycling market is fascinating in terms of pricing and consumer purchasing. My analysis goes something like this…(please focus on the general concept)

Stage 1
Custom bike builders (Serotta, Seven, IF, Calfee, etc.) were producing superior products in the form of quality (materials), precision (manufacturing) and design (customization) – not to mention most of these products were made in America. In exchange for these qualities, consumers were willing to pay a premium.

Stage 2
Something odd happens. The giants (Trek, Cervelo, Specialized, Time, Look, etc.) figure out they can charge the same high-end prices without delivering on any of the unique qualities of the custom bike builders. Rather the story primarily shifts to weight – lightest bike wins. Given high margins on these products (mostly made off shore), they can invest large sums of money into adverting and sex appeal (and perhaps expanded R&D departments). Example, Trek Madone 6.9 SSL RADIOSHACK NISSAN TREK Edition = $11,686.48 (current list price).

Stage 3
By equalizing the cost difference between custom builders and the giants the perceived value and associated price premium to custom builders no longer holds the same weight as it used too. More importantly, by driving cost similarities at the top end, the mid-market ($3,000-$7,000) bikes explode. While we all argue about the insane prices at the top, we now purchase in the mid-market at a much higher average price than ever before. By quantifying the insane, the outrageous is more attainable.

Result
Custom bike builders have a difficult time competing without off shoring operations, and we the consumer pay much higher prices for stock, run of the mill racing bikes.

I grew up riding dirk bikes (KTMs)…a brand new 2012 KTM 350 SX-F lists for $8,499...point being…perhaps we are paying too much!

Note: This is not a rant against the giants, or a sap story for the custom bike builders. To me, it’s just an interesting story to see how capitalism and consumer preferences can not only change an industry overnight, but fundamentally skew the true cost of a product. :beer:

[classtimesailer]

Very interesting. Good for us. My custom steel was easier to justify at my house since it cost less than nice store bought bikes.
Jeff

[sg8357]

..

[Kontact]

I completely agree. Add to that:

High end stock bikes are made in the USA or Europe (the cycling meccas). Yay!

High end stock bikes are made in Asia by US and European design companies. Yay!

High end stock bikes are made in Asia by companies that work closely with and supply US and European design companies. Yay.

High end stock bikes are made and designed in Asia. Yay?


And that's how Chinarello becomes the equivalent to a Pinarello in just a few short years. Companies have sold overseas production quality so well that consumers are starting to believe that no one knows bikes like the Chinese.

[peanutgallery]

you will never pull a holeshot, get the Dungey 450 and a neck brace:)

so true, same thought at times. that is why I shop around and am selective, try not to believe the hype

Recent evolution of the high-end cycling market is fascinating in terms of pricing and consumer purchasing. My analysis goes something like this…(please focus on the general concept)

Stage 1
Custom bike builders (Serotta, Seven, IF, Calfee, etc.) were producing superior products in the form of quality (materials), precision (manufacturing) and design (customization) – not to mention most of these products were made in America. In exchange for these qualities, consumers were willing to pay a premium.

Stage 2
Something odd happens. The giants (Trek, Cervelo, Specialized, Time, Look, etc.) figure out they can charge the same high-end prices without delivering on any of the unique qualities of the custom bike builders. Rather the story primarily shifts to weight – lightest bike wins. Given high margins on these products (mostly made off shore), they can invest large sums of money into adverting and sex appeal (and perhaps expanded R&D departments). Example, Trek Madone 6.9 SSL RADIOSHACK NISSAN TREK Edition = $11,686.48 (current list price).

Stage 3
By equalizing the cost difference between custom builders and the giants the perceived value and associated price premium to custom builders no longer holds the same weight as it used too. More importantly, by driving cost similarities at the top end, the mid-market ($3,000-$7,000) bikes explode. While we all argue about the insane prices at the top, we now purchase in the mid-market at a much higher average price than ever before. By quantifying the insane, the outrageous is more attainable.

Result
Custom bike builders have a difficult time competing without off shoring operations, and we the consumer pay much higher prices for stock, run of the mill racing bikes.

I grew up riding dirk bikes (KTMs)…a brand new 2012 KTM 350 SX-F lists for $8,499...point being…perhaps we are paying too much!

Note: This is not a rant against the giants, or a sap story for the custom bike builders. To me, it’s just an interesting story to see how capitalism and consumer preferences can not only change an industry overnight, but fundamentally skew the true cost of a product. :beer:

[Ahneida Ride]

In the mid range ..... a good part of the cost is federal reserve note dilution.

However ....
Walk into any LBS pick up a Saddle and look at the price tag? 145 frn ?
Saddles used to be in the 35 range. That is NOT due to frn dilution.

So .... have we become suckers ?

oh yea ....HB's leather cost just went up 6% (in one year) in frns.

when I was a kid 10K cars hardly existed. a souped up BMW was 8,500.

[Ahneida Ride]

I'd humbly submit that one can purchase a great bike from a leading builder
below the price of a off shore "quality" bike.

What does Carl Strong ask? 2300 for frame/fork ?

I any event, I am just rambling, 3 cheers to the OP. :beer:

[MattTuck]

After talking to builders, I'm not sure that they are 'rolling in the money'. The precision you talk about comes at a cost, their time.

Running a business with overhead, materials, health benefits, general and product liability, traveling to trade shows, etc. is not cheap -- not to mention, the builder only gets to take home what they make after all of this.

The cheapest custom steel frames I've seen are around 1,500 - 1,800. And that is for tubes welded together, no fancy fillets or nice lugs. And that price is from a guy who runs a bike shop and builds in his spare time.

It is expensive to run a business...

[tiretrax]

I think the point is that custom frames now seem like a bargain (well, good value anyway) compared to a stock, high-end carbon bike.

[cmg]

Where the frame is made has no effect on it's cost but it's profit margin. the stage 2 giants were always ahead of the game (custom builders) in the equation. Those early giants that were able to see the shift survived (Bianchi, Colnago Trek) and yes lightness wins or leads the list of desirable qualities because that is the easiest to quantify. go to a group ride when someone shows up with a custom builder's bike amongst a sea of Treks and specialized riders. They just stand around and wonder why.

[Ahneida Ride]

What the little inside knowledge I have ...

On a lugged frame ... a builder can make frns .... BUT they also
have to put in a LOT of time ... so the trade off.

On a true "show bike" frame .... there are show bike hours.

On a tig'ed frame, ... to be truly profitable, you have to have volume.

[c-record]

I agree with what's been said. I'm baffled, BAFFLED, why some feel that their stock bike is truly superior to a custom. Buyer justification? I don't knock their bike and have ridden/owned many, many of the current crop of high-end production stuff on the market. Nice bikes yes, better value than what I can purchase custom... I think not.

[Rueda Tropical]

I'm baffled, BAFFLED, why some feel that their stock bike is truly superior to a custom.

Back when pro's raced on custom Italian steel. Customers wanted what the pros rode. Now they ride massed produced Asian CF. Now that's what the customers want.

Just like kids walking into a music store and buying whatever guitar their guitar hero played or the car in the transformer flick or the with an older generation the camera Cartier-Bresson shot with or the car James Bond or James Dean drove. It's lifestyle, tribal identification and mythology, not function.

[bking]

Is the high cost legit, i confess i don't know. Are Trek, Giant etc making Apple or Microsoft, or even Exxon type margins, i'm pretty sure they're not. And i have no idea if someone in their supply chain is, i've not heard about it if they do (someone let me know if they are, i'll invest).
On the list started by the op i don't entirely agree with all the points. I do think that the quality of product, especailly the top end, is on par with what the best custom guys put out (granted there are customer service issues occasionally, but that exists for some of our best one man shops as well). On the fit, I also think i can make a BMC work and fit just as well as a custom. Don't know that there's an advantage there either.
I entirely agree with what i got out of the thread that the high cost of a tricked out Trek makes a trip north to Montana for a handmade for me bike from a builder who becomes a friend and ally seem very reasonable indeed.

I'm not really defending the giant builders, don't misunderstand. I haven't bought a plastic bike since the BMC mentioned above in, I think it was 2007 or 8. I have been on a tear buying from some of the best one man shops or small builders in the country. Quality of materials, sure, workmanship absolutly, proper fit, yes, price, very fair and reasonable (perhaps thanks to the big guys, as OP points out), but for me it's more than all of that, and i don't know that i can put it in words. I just like it when it says Kirk, or Sachs, or Pegoretti, and not Specialized, and i have to explain.
I love to ride, and i really love the bikes these guys produce one at a time, and I'm grateful they share their passion and skill at a price, that as pointed out above, seems pretty darn reasonable these days.

While i have converted a few friends to my way of thinking--handmade steel, when someone is really looking into getting into bikes I explain there are a lot of companies that make a great bike. Find one that just screams out to you to throw a leg over it and ride.

By the way, I've been a KTM guy since about 1972 or so, when a guy named John Penton was importing them and slapping his name on them. Really sad that they are the only one of all the great European marques that made it...there too is a David and Goliath story, but for another day .

[Kontact]

I agree with what's been said. I'm baffled, BAFFLED, why some feel that their stock bike is truly superior to a custom. Buyer justification? I don't knock their bike and have ridden/owned many, many of the current crop of high-end production stuff on the market. Nice bikes yes, better value than what I can purchase custom... I think not.
Well, if the bike fits and you like the way it rides, why wouldn't it be "as good" or "better" (lighter or more aero) than a custom that also fits and rides well?

I have a Merlin with Tom Kellogg geometry that fits me very well, and I am a fairly normal weight for my frame size. What would Tom have done on a custom for me that he and Merlin didn't do when they designed my bike? (I am happy with the finish and braze-ons).

Customs are nice if you need a custom or want a custom.

[Gummee]

I'm lucky. I fit most everything out there with TTs between 53.5 and 54.5. I don't need custom.

In that sense, a mass-produced bike is as good or better than a custom bike.

Now, if you think back, the original frames that were made: S-Workses and OCLVs et al *were* made in the USA. It wasn't that long ago that you did get something nicer if you bought the higher end 'production' stuff. Any more? All of its made overseas.

M

[c-record]

I agree that sizing has gotten much better on most production bikes out there nowadays. I can fit many stock bikes very well. For me, and this supports the argument made IF you need custom, the notion that the same production frame ending up under two riders that are #100 apart from one another makes no sense whatsoever. For similar money to other high end stock bikes, go custom.

[peanutgallery]

speaking of KTM's, (slight drift) I had one of these that I used to "ride" enduros with back in the day. mine was an 82 (this is an 83) and the trick was to go to the Kawi dealer to get a disc brake, fork and wheel. we're all going round and round about mechanical brakes on a bicycle, you should try whoaing up that beast with mechanicals. pads would delaminate and spin around in the hub. luckily there tons of tiddlers in the woods I could run into in order to slow down

http://kellymotodepoca.com/images/83-ktm-495-1.jpg

scariest thing that happened to me was I messed up wiring the light and ended up shocking myself when I got on the gas. the more gas the more electricity. fun times, too bad there are not more strong Euro brands left

[c-record]

Peanut, is Husaberg all that? I know all my buddies are into KTM but one friend I trust quitely said 'Husaberg'. That was enough to get me curious, though I'm likely going to find a deal on a used 450 of some Japanese ilk.

[GuyGadois]

Stage 1
Custom bike builders (Serotta, Seven, IF, Calfee, etc.) were producing superior products in the form of quality (materials), precision (manufacturing) and design (customization) – not to mention most of these products were made in America. In exchange for these qualities, consumers were willing to pay a premium.

Between Stage 1 and Stage 2 Lance happened. In other words bike sponsorship became very important and the availability of those winningbikes to the every day Starbucks weekend rider. If Lance rides that bike it must be the best and if I can buy that why would I want to buy a bike That no one wins the Tour de France on. Obviously I am way over simplifying things here and this occurred in small part before Lance but it really took off with Lance and Trek. Do we really think SRAM would be this popular if the company didn't buy it's way on to every bike in the peloton?

GG


Stage 2
Something odd happens. The giants (Trek, Cervelo, Specialized, Time, Look, etc.) figure out they can charge the same high-end prices without delivering on any of the unique qualities of the custom bike builders. Rather the story primarily shifts to weight – lightest bike wins. Given high margins on these products (mostly made off shore), they can invest large sums of money into adverting and sex appeal (and perhaps expanded R&D departments). Example, Trek Madone 6.9 SSL RADIOSHACK NISSAN TREK Edition = $11,686.48 (current list price).

[velotel]

I think there's a lot of reason in what you've written but I'd like to offer a slightly different perspective on the subject. Note that I have no data or paticular experience to back up what I'm about to propose, just thoughts. I suspect that the vast majority of buyers of top of the line, "custom", whatever production bikes weren't at the time of purchase potential buyers of a true custom frame from a custom builder. To fall into that category the person has to be relatively knowledgeable about riding and bikes, have a good idea of what he or she is looking for and perhaps more importantly has been missing in previous bikes, and have some sort of aesthetic passion for things that aren't common, that aren't easily available, and even aren't all that well known.

Buying a custom frame from a custom builder usually means having to be able to communicate with the builder, to express desires and perceived needs, and having to take the time to find the one he or she wants to work with. This is not about going down to the local bike shop and picking out the dream bike built for the customer. Obviously there are exceptions to that statement for those who have the good luck to be near and know about shops like Vecchio's. (I'm not using Peter's shop as an example to push his business, just happens to be the only shop like that that I know.) Otherwise the rider has to do some searching and then have enough personal criteria to narrow down the choice until the selection is finally made.

And that person has to do all this while totally disregarding all the marketing pushing the idea that the big companies' flagship bikes are the cutting edge in bike technology and that in addition more than likely his or her choice isn't going to be recognized by the majority of cyclists as anything particularly special. The response could well be more of wonderment, as in why spend all that money on some unknown builder using outdated materials instead of buying the best on the market.

For me anyone contemplating a true custom frame is totally out of the mainstream market and the mainstream bike buyers are the ones the big companies are targeting. In effect the custom builders opened up the high end market for people with more money than rider knowledge. Note that I am not in any respect denying the quality and performance of the big box high end bikes nor saying that anyone who buys one is blowing money out the pipe. I have no doubt at all that any rider can find a big box bike that will perform up to every expectation the rider has. No offense to the custom builders but frame building isn't rocket science; it's a skill, a highly refined and evolved skill but there is no magic in the work. No one builds the 'best' bike in the world; a lot of builders build the 'best' bike in the world, even factories in Asia.

For me a custom bike from a custom bike builder is simply a question of transcending the standard criteria for a bike. Custom bikes move into the world of aesthetics and relationships. For example, myself, I have an Eriksen. For me the bike is terrific. When I was contemplating the purchase, there was a raging debate in my head about buying an Eriksen or a Steve Potts. Not because I believed that either one of them built the best frames available but because I knew both of them well, considered them good friends since more than 20 years, and respected and appreciated them as people, builders, and especially riders, extremely talented riders. Had I had the money I would have ordered one from each of them just to avoid the decision. And had I known of Kirk at the time I would have been agonizing over choosing him instead. But not because I thought he was the best but because when I saw his site and saw the picture of him standing in a garage with a Lotus Super 7 sort of copy (actually better than the original) sitting in the garage next to him and there he was in Bozeman, Montana of all places, I just went crazy like I'd just sucked down a huge lungful of Acapulco Gold Premium and then some. I mean here's a guy building bike frames in Bozeman, Montana, no one builds bike frames in Bozeman, Montana, that's entirely nuts. And to boot he's got this crazy fun car that I didn't even know existed in the states that he's driving around in Montana. So instantly I thought this is a guy whose bikes have got to be cool, and not because it's so friggin cold up there.

In other words in my perspective the decision to buy a custom frame is completely irrational. It's all about emotion. Sure, I know there are all kinds of formidable arguments that can be posited on the advantages of custom over stock. Equally on the other side.

Thus for me those people dropping big bucks on big box high end frames are all potential buyers of true custom frames if, and this is a big if, if they discover the passion of riding. Learn that and some day that big box frame will no longer light their flames. Not because the true custom bike will necessarily ride better but because it will reflect their passion for the sport. It's like I said long, long ago in the early days of mountain biking: don't sweat Murry or whoever getting into the game because every one of those buyers is a potential buyer of something much better, but only after they've discovered the sport they bought into.

But you're probably quite right that the big box offerings pushed the prices up a lot. They're selling image and cheap images don't have value, only expensive, even stupidly expensive images have value. Like the shots in a link my son sent me of some old guy in California running down to the store in his Bugatti with his dog riding shotgun. One of the fastest cars in the world and this guy lives in California and uses it to go down and buy a paper or something. It's not about the car, it's about the money he has that can buy the car. I suspect it's much the same with these ridiculously, in my opinion, priced big box bikes, it's not the bike that's being bought, it's the image. Custom builders are lousy at selling image; they're very good at selling very good but rather anonymous bikes.

[Earl Gray]

Stage 1
Custom bike builders (Serotta, Seven, IF, Calfee, etc.) were producing superior products in the form of quality (materials), precision (manufacturing) and design (customization) – not to mention most of these products were made in America. In exchange for these qualities, consumers were willing to pay a premium.

Stage 2
Something odd happens. The giants (Trek, Cervelo, Specialized, Time, Look, etc.) figure out they can make just as good of a product and since most people don't need custom sizing they can sell it to the masses. Since the custom builders set the bar for the prices that we are willing to pay, the big boys jump on the band wagon.

Stage 3
By equalizing the quality of the product, the difference between custom builders and the giants the perceived value and associated price premium to custom builders no longer holds the same weight as it used too. More importantly, by driving cost similarities at the top end, the mid-market ($3,000-$7,000) bikes explode. While we all argue about the insane prices at the top, we now purchase in the mid-market at a much higher average price than ever before. By quantifying the insane, the outrageous is more attainable.

Result
Custom bike builders drove the prices of bikes up.



Probably not at all true but just as likely.

[Chance]

And that's how Chinarello becomes the equivalent to a Pinarello in just a few short years. Companies have sold overseas production quality so well that consumers are starting to believe that no one knows bikes like the Chinese.
You probably mean "your" kind of bikes, because they probably make and ride more bikes than we do by a mile. ;) BTW, just found your statement funny because my image of China are a billion bikes on the roads going in every direction. But your point about racing versus utilitarian bikes is well taken.

Regarding this thread we get what we deserve. And if ultra-low weight is not a high priority there are a lot of good (as in adequate) bikes for much less money. In some cases our expectations of what we want from a bike have shifted more than our ability to pay for those improvements. In my opinion cheap bikes are often still better than what we could buy in the past for equal money.

[velotel]

By quantifying the insane, the outrageous is more attainable.

Kind of what the right did politically in the states; moved so far to the right that today Reagan would be considered a liberal, maybe even a socialist. Electric shifting is going to make today's seriously expensive a bargain.

[charliedid]

Between Stage 1 and Stage 2 Lance happened. In other words bike sponsorship became very important and the availability of those winningbikes to the every day Starbucks weekend rider. If Lance rides that bike it must be the best and if I can buy that why would I want to buy a bike That no one wins the Tour de France on. Obviously I am way over simplifying things here and this occurred in small part before Lance but it really took off with Lance and Trek. Do we really think SRAM would be this popular if the company didn't buy it's way on to every bike in the peloton?

GG

Pretty much...

[peanutgallery]

a great ride, made by KTM these days - remnants of the old Husky crew when it was shipped out of sweden in the late 80's. anything 96 or newer and you should be ok with a thumper from them, don't see all too many but a few. in all reality, buy a KTM. probably the deepest and most innovative line of off road bikes out there and a strong network of dealers.

the new thumpers are nice (electric start) but they are still developing the 2 strokes which are lighter and sooooo much more fun to chase mailboxes with. they still make a 200 that is a blast in the woods. lots of tech in the thumpers, so be careful when you get on the gas for the first time in a while. anything you get that is newer will amaze you with the power, suspension and the the carburetor is almost dead (thankfully). cheaper than a new road ride, too

call me crazy but this is what I want
http://www.ktm.com/us/enduro/150-xc-usa.html

Peanut, is Husaberg all that? I know all my buddies are into KTM but one friend I trust quitely said 'Husaberg'. That was enough to get me curious, though I'm likely going to find a deal on a used 450 of some Japanese ilk.

[samsays]

a great ride, made by KTM these days - remnants of the old Husky crew when it was shipped out of sweden in the late 80's. anything 96 or newer and you should be ok with a thumper from them, don't see all too many but a few. in all reality, buy a KTM. probably the deepest and most innovative line of off road bikes out there and a strong network of dealers.

the new thumpers are nice (electric start) but they are still developing the 2 strokes which are lighter and sooooo much more fun to chase mailboxes with. they still make a 200 that is a blast in the woods. lots of tech in the thumpers, so be careful when you get on the gas for the first time in a while. anything you get that is newer will amaze you with the power, suspension and the the carburetor is almost dead (thankfully). cheaper than a new road ride, too

call me crazy but this is what I want
http://www.ktm.com/us/enduro/150-xc-usa.html


And you can get all that material (engine, shocks, disk breaks, tires, wheels, etc, etc.) for a few thousand dollars LESS than some sheets of carbon fiber.

Talk about how the demographics of a consumer base can change the value of a product....

Note: I do understand supply and demand here and that there are probably less high-end road bikes sold perhaps making the manufacturing more costly...but there sure are a lot more parts in a KTM then a racing bike.

[giverdada]

Very interesting. Good for us. My custom steel was easier to justify at my house since it cost less than nice store bought bikes.
Jeff

we lost all our bikes in a collision.

my wife got a cinelli strato.

i got a carl strong.

guess who won? :D

[Kontact]

You probably mean "your" kind of bikes, because they probably make and ride more bikes than we do by a mile. ;) BTW, just found your statement funny because my image of China are a billion bikes on the roads going in every direction. But your point about racing versus utilitarian bikes is well taken.

Regarding this thread we get what we deserve. And if ultra-low weight is not a high priority there are a lot of good (as in adequate) bikes for much less money. In some cases our expectations of what we want from a bike have shifted more than our ability to pay for those improvements. In my opinion cheap bikes are often still better than what we could buy in the past for equal money.
Yeah, they own a lot of bicycles. Do you think they've made big strides in early 20th century English Racer bike design.

They haven't made any big strides in AK-47 design, despite making a lot of those.

[Gummee]

Peanut, is Husaberg all that? I know all my buddies are into KTM but one friend I trust quitely said 'Husaberg'. That was enough to get me curious, though I'm likely going to find a deal on a used 450 of some Japanese ilk.
...and Husky...
...and Beta...
...and Osso...
...and Gas-Gas...
...and Aprilia...

...and a few more we don't get here

The Euro bikes are quite alive and well thanks!

I'm fixin to inherit a non-running Husky TE250 with a 450 engine in it. Should be fun!

Oh, and C-Record: If you wanna ride this thumper on the road, there's KTM, Husky, and Husaberg. The Japs aren't making any performance 450s that are street legal (that I know of). The DR-Z line is a different critter completely than the EXC or TE lines. The 'racing' 450cc thumpers from the Japanese are decidedly NOT street legal. In certain states its fairly easy to convert em. In certain states, darn near impossible (CA). Surf on over to ADVRider.com and look in the Thumpers section. Don't forget to read Ride Reports!

M

[peanutgallery]

the proverbial basket case, sounds like good winter fun...seriously

have fun, there's lots of neat places to find parts

...and Husky...
...and Beta...
...and Osso...
...and Gas-Gas...
...and Aprilia...

...and a few more we don't get here

The Euro bikes are quite alive and well thanks!

I'm fixin to inherit a non-running Husky TE250 with a 450 engine in it. Should be fun!

Oh, and C-Record: If you wanna ride this thumper on the road, there's KTM, Husky, and Husaberg. The Japs aren't making any performance 450s that are street legal (that I know of). The DR-Z line is a different critter completely than the EXC or TE lines. The 'racing' 450cc thumpers from the Japanese are decidedly NOT street legal. In certain states its fairly easy to convert em. In certain states, darn near impossible (CA). Surf on over to ADVRider.com and look in the Thumpers section. Don't forget to read Ride Reports!

M

[c-record]

I've wasted my share of productive time on ADV rider as well. The next street bike to replace the FZ1 will be an adventure tourer for sure. Super Tenere anyone!?

[rounder]

I think that both Specialized and Trek make really great bikes from bottom to top.

The part i don't like is when you walk into a shop and all of the parts and all of the accessories they carry are either Specialized or Trek/Bontrager. Who wants Specialized or Trek/Bontrager stuff on their pride and joy, but not Specialized or Trek/Bontrager, bike.

[Ahneida Ride]

3K is around the going price for a lugged steel frame from a reputable
builder.

I've been in the shops of 2 leading builders and I can attest to the fact that
these guys don't just throw a lugged frame together.

If we want our builders to keep building, they have to provide for their
families and make a reasonable profit.

[William]

I was duped into getting some handleBra!!! :crap:

Dupe me again!! :banana: ;)






William

[oldpotatoe]

Yeah, they own a lot of bicycles. Do you think they've made big strides in early 20th century English Racer bike design.

They haven't made any big strides in AK-47 design, despite making a lot of those.

More than a couple of people, in the mud in a rice paddy, wish they had that AK-47 instead of the overly complicated, and prone to jamming, M-16. Same for those in the 'sand box', during a windstorm.

The AK-47 is essentially unchanged since the Russian tank guy designed it over 50 years ago and it is the very epitome of an assault rifle used in poor conditions by poorly trained soldiers and terrorists.

NOT a gun freak, but I saw a guy take a AK-47, dump it into a mud filled tub, take it out and shoot it. Cannot do that with the latest, and very good, modern iteration of the M-16, the M-4.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M4_carbine

Same goes for Russian aircraft. Even the 'modern' ones like the Flanker and Fulcrum. Simple, reliable, lots of them.

[William]

More than a couple of people, in the mud in a rice paddy, wish they had that AK-47 instead of the overly complicated, and prone to jamming, M-16. Same for those in the 'sand box', during a windstorm.

The AK-47 is essentially unchanged since the Russian tank guy designed it over 50 years ago and it is the very epitome of an assault rifle used in poor conditions by poorly trained soldiers and terrorists.

NOT a gun freak, but I saw a guy take a AK-47, dump it into a mud filled tub, take it out and shoot it. Cannot do that with the latest, and very good, modern iteration of the M-16, the M-4.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M4_carbine

Absolutely true.

A good exhaustive read on the subject if it interests you.

http://cdn5.thefirearmsblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/the_gun-tfb.jpg




William

[jpw]

I completely agree. Add to that:

High end stock bikes are made in the USA or Europe (the cycling meccas). Yay!

High end stock bikes are made in Asia by US and European design companies. Yay!

High end stock bikes are made in Asia by companies that work closely with and supply US and European design companies. Yay.

High end stock bikes are made and designed in Asia. Yay?


And that's how Chinarello becomes the equivalent to a Pinarello in just a few short years. Companies have sold overseas production quality so well that consumers are starting to believe that no one knows bikes like the Chinese.

This is what happened to Dell.

[jpw]

So many high end stock bikes are just plain ugly looking. I was in a local shop this week where they have a slew of road bikes on the sales floor. All were to my eye aesthetically deficient in some way or other (colors, combinations of colors, color patterns, frame tt angles, construction joint shapes (BMC), et.c.

Nothing really appealed to me.

[oldpotatoe]

3K is around the going price for a lugged steel frame from a reputable
builder.

I've been in the shops of 2 leading builders and I can attest to the fact that
these guys don't just throw a lugged frame together.

If we want our builders to keep building, they have to provide for their
families and make a reasonable profit.

$3000??

Waterford R-22 is $1950, frame, fully custom. AND we do get great margin.

The stainless, lugged is $3300..also full custom.

[Chance]

Yeah, they own a lot of bicycles. Do you think they've made big strides in early 20th century English Racer bike design.

They haven't made any big strides in AK-47 design, despite making a lot of those.
Beyond that they cumulatively ride more miles than we do, my point was that it’s difficult to compare knowledge with affordability. Some high end bikes in the US probably cost more than some Chinese family’s house so their economy in the past couldn’t support manufacture of $5,000 bikes in large numbers regardless of their expertise. Today they may have more rich capitalists that can afford expensive bikes but they probably drive cars instead of ride bikes to work.

My opinion is that they view bikes more as a functional tool instead of “a work of art”. And if we viewed them somewhat similarly costs don’t have to be that high for us either. Don’t think we’ve been duped in US as much as spoiled by our relative richness. Personally, given a choice between riding a $1,000 bike in places that really mean something to me and riding a $5,000 bike in the same old places the choice would be easy.

Yeah, nice bikes are nice but it’s just equipment. For me it’s a small part of cycling. My most memorable moments cycling were on relatively cheap bikes so the bling factor doesn’t seem to make much difference to me.

[oldpotatoe]

Beyond that they cumulatively ride more miles than we do, my point was that it’s difficult to compare knowledge with affordability. Some high end bikes in the US probably cost more than some Chinese family’s house so their economy in the past couldn’t support manufacture of $5,000 bikes in large numbers regardless of their expertise. Today they may have more rich capitalists that can afford expensive bikes but they probably drive cars instead of ride bikes to work.

My opinion is that they view bikes more as a functional tool instead of “a work of art”. And if we viewed them somewhat similarly costs don’t have to be that high for us either. Don’t think we’ve been duped in US as much as spoiled by our relative richness. Personally, given a choice between riding a $1,000 bike in places that really mean something to me and riding a $5,000 bike in the same old places the choice would be easy.

Yeah, nice bikes are nice but it’s just equipment. For me it’s a small part of cycling. My most memorable moments cycling were on relatively cheap bikes so the bling factor doesn’t seem to make much difference to me.


E bikes and scooters are new Chinese 'bicycle'.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32172301/ns/world_news-world_environment/t/china-drives-electric-bike-scooter-boom/#.TzUxPUzC5vk

[Fixed]

if you know something about bikes and want class and don't mind a wait then go custom build
if you want it today and want to be like someone or most everyone else go to the store and take one home today
cheers
saying that but my merckx corsa is fabulous
cheers

[dekindy]

The cycling industry understands Marketing 101, News at 11:00. :rolleyes:

[Ahneida Ride]

$3000??

Waterford R-22 is $1950, frame, fully custom. AND we do get great margin.

The stainless, lugged is $3300..also full custom.

AND It's a Waterford ! Outstanding product !

http://waterfordbikes.com/w/ordering/price-list

Some Sweeeeta deals here for sure !

[Chance]

E bikes and scooters are new Chinese 'bicycle'.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32172301/ns/world_news-world_environment/t/china-drives-electric-bike-scooter-boom/#.TzUxPUzC5vk
Thanks, great info. Although it's hard to figure out the 12 MPH speed. Why not just pedal at that speed (other than going uphill).

That 98 percent of their e-bikes use lead-acid batteries is somewhat surprising, but that's probably required to keep the cost down to the $250 to $450 range. Apparently all their high-tech battery technology hasn't filtered down to the masses yet. :rolleyes: Just shows to me that in the end cost makes a big difference in what we are willing to buy.

[jmoore]

However ....
Walk into any LBS pick up a Saddle and look at the price tag? 145 frn ?
Saddles used to be in the 35 range. That is NOT due to frn dilution.

[/SIZE]

I'd love for saddle prices to go through the roof. Esp. for ones that are easy to recover :D




But seriously, why anyone would spend the same $$ on a stock frame as opposed to a custom is beyond me. Even if you fit on a stock bike, why would you buy one when you can get something unique? Baffling.

[flickwet]

Absolutely true.

A good exhaustive read on the subject if it interests you.

http://cdn5.thefirearmsblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/the_gun-tfb.jpg

.


William

Great read, ya don't have to be an aficionado of weaponry to enjoy it more of an enlightening social political book, reads well and fast

[rbrule]

I have had many bikes, carbon, production steel, and now have two Serotta's, a Legend, and a colorado ii that i have Joe Bell repainting , custom color and a few upgrades. I sold off the carbon bikes accept for my Lemond carbon/ti Victorie. I have hammered Cannondale,look,specialized,felt and only remember the days I loved riding my Paramount, Pinarello, and Colnago steel bikes on stage races. I basically just wore out the other bikes. This serotta brand is a league of their own. They ride like no other and Im not as beat up like i used to feel on the prior bikes. Now I'm doing ultra distance rides and need performance and comfort. I finish my ride and have little pain. 150 mile plus days,training for double centuries . I am excited to build up the colorado II vintage bike. I will have the day on that bike when I smoke the plastic bikes In a crit, or club ride. Masters San Diego Racer.from 1985

[Kontact]

I'd love for saddle prices to go through the roof. Esp. for ones that are easy to recover :D




But seriously, why anyone would spend the same $$ on a stock frame as opposed to a custom is beyond me. Even if you fit on a stock bike, why would you buy one when you can get something unique? Baffling.
I don't think any custom builder is making anything that looks completely unique. The unique part is the little details and the sizing.

There aren't many custom aero tubed carbon frames, for that matter.

[steampunk]

Very interesting. Good for us. My custom steel was easier to justify at my house since it cost less than nice store bought bikes.
Jeff

ditto. a trip to the nicer, stocking LBS shows the better half that the Pina-Trek-Spez-Cervelos on the floor easily cost up to 4-5K and up.

[Charles M]

Who's "we"?

[sg8357]

Who's "we"?

People who missed reading CM Kornbluth is English Lit.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Space_Merchants