The Price of a Tuna Fish Sandwich- Part Two [Archive]

Sandy

08-16-2005, 03:30 PM

So how much money would you pay for a tuna fish sandwich? We have been through this before on an earlier thread that I started when the 2005 Ottrott prices were announced.

I think that is time to talk about the cost of a rib eye steak sandwich. How much would you pay? If it was one of those Philadelphia style rib eye sandwiches that often use cow rib eyes sliced very thin, maybe I would pay $2.00 (I don't like cow meat to eat). Now, if it was not cow meat, but was steer meat, then I would be willing to pay a great deal more. For a nice rib eye sandwich, using ungraded steer meat, I might pay $12.57, if it included some fries or potato salad, and a pickle. For a large choice rib eye sandwich, on a fresh roll, with fries or potato salad, and with a kosher pickle and a small side salad, I would go much higher- maybe as much as $20, maybe $25 if it was a stellar sandwich, and there was nothing else for me to choose. Would I pay $50 for the sandwhich? No way, no matter how hungry I was. I would have to order a tuna fish sandwich, or if finances were real low, maybe an American cheese sandwich, or a peanut butter and jelley sandwich.

So how much would you pay for a new bicycle? Now to the new Serotta- Assuming that the post, by PB Wrench, on the "Serotta new model Friday" is accurate, I am somewhat surprised. A full carbon bike would mean carbon and not titanium lugs. Secondly, I was told that Serotta would not come out with a carbon bike unless it was fully custom. Thirdly- A price of $7995 for frame and fork????

Let's consider the price, assuming again the accuracy of the post- One may buy a Parlee frameset, including head set, for $3500- $4500 retail. So a Serotta frameset is twice a Parlee? How about a Calfee?

For $8,000, you can buy a fully equipped Spectrum or Dave Kirk or Calfee or Parlee or...

I respect Ben Serotta and Serotta, the company, very much. However, the chance of me buying that bike is zero. I assume that Serotta knows what it is doing.

I think that those at Serotta reached the end of our planet earth, and decided to jump off.

Heck, sell me two CSi's, one for a muti-geared bike and one for a fixed gear.

Back to my tuna sub,

Salmon Salad Sandwich Sandy aka Sizzling Sirloin Steak Sandy

William

08-16-2005, 03:49 PM

Sure, you could go to the really expensive restaurant to get that sandwich, but when there is a small joint down the street that makes a sandwich just as good for half the price, why bother? Sure you get the "ambiance" and "look at me factor", but in the end, the sandwich is the same. Is a Parlee or Calfee really half the bike that this new Serotta is? That's a tall order to fill. But there are folks out there who want the bling factor and maybe that's who it will be marketed to.

Again, if this is true. It could also be a fishing expedition to float pricing and reactions. Or it could just be a cruel hoax. :no:

We shall see. If I'm going to drop that much coin toward a two wheel vehicle, it's going to have a V-twin motor attatched to it. I love cycling, but that much for a bike? Never.

William

Sandy

08-16-2005, 03:58 PM

I agree totally.

My wife and I go out to eat a lot. We really enjoy it. But we always go to restaurants at which we feel we are receiving an excellent value. We often go to a diner or a couple of restaurants that have excellent salad bars. Again the word value is the key word.

I also would not purchase Serotta's new bike. In fact, its announcement actually makes it less likely for me to buy any Serotta bike. It really does.

Sticker Shock Shocked Sandy

dbrk

08-16-2005, 04:13 PM

...Again, if this is true. It could also be a fishing expedition to float pricing and reactions. Or it could just be a cruel hoax. :... I love cycling, but that much for a bike? Never.
William

Let's put one part of this to rest: this is no hoax. I have the same annoucement that was posted after my little joke/suggestion sorta' initially put it out there. My source for this annoucement was the same as the Adieu, CSi, and that was no joke either.

Serottas are just turning into bikes that have nothing to do with me when it wasn't so long ago they were right up my alley. I guess I need to go bowling elsewhere now. They sell tuna sandwiches in other bowling alleys, don't they?

this ferrous bowler needs to take a day off or something, to get over the news,

dbrk

Ginger

08-16-2005, 04:19 PM

Ahead of the curve.

I think Serotta is just floating ahead of the curve. Gas prices are going up, more people are on bikes. Where it might be out of reach to buy a cool car, a cool bike is do-able.

Although I'm with William here...If I pay that much for a frame and fork alone it's going to have an efficient motor attached.

Maybe something like this (although this is out of the price range, but very cute in person):
http://www.sparrowelectriccars.com/

fiamme red

08-16-2005, 04:20 PM

Let's put one part of this to rest: this is no hoax. I have the same annoucement that was posted after my little joke/suggestion sorta' initially put it out there. My source for this annoucement was the same as the Adieu, CSi, and that was no joke either.

Serottas are just turning into bikes that have nothing to do with me when it wasn't so long ago they were right up my alley. I guess I need to go bowling elsewhere now. They sell tuna sandwiches in other bowling alleys, don't they?

this ferrous bowler needs to take a day off or something, to get over the news,

dbrkBut, dbrk, suppose the new carbon Serotta model only cost as much as a Parlee Z1. Wouldn't you consider it then?

Sandy

08-16-2005, 04:21 PM

I think that I am going to take up bowling.

Split Sandy

William

08-16-2005, 04:23 PM

http://www.sparrowelectriccars.com/[/url]

I'll take that Orange one. I wonder what the crash ratings are on one of those.... ok, back on topic. I won't.

William

JohnS

08-16-2005, 04:27 PM

Sandy

08-16-2005, 04:30 PM

Ahead of the curve? I would say so. Way ahead. Price wise, anyway. Way ahead of the curve. Carbon fiber bicycle wise- very, very doubtful. Calfee, Trek, Colnago, Parlee,.... are not names to dismiss very easily.

I know R and D is expensive. But I find the price ludicrous, relative to what is available today, and I say that with no reservation, without seeing or test riding the new carbon Ottrott. Besides, I can't remember the name, can't pronounce it, and surely can't spell it.

Speller Sandy

William

08-16-2005, 04:32 PM

Maybe they don't care if they sell a lot, at first. What that new, higher pricepoint does is make the Ottrott seem more affordable and the Legend ST seem darnright cheap. Now husbands can justify their Ottrotts by telling the wife, "Honey, it's not even the top-of-the-line model".

Maybe, but I thought the Ottrott was too much to pay for a frame & fork. I still do, even though this new one is topping out at $8,000. What that does for me, as Sandy said too, is turn me off to Serotta as over priced and points me in other directions.

William

Bradford

08-16-2005, 04:34 PM

Even though I have a similar sense of value as Sandy, this doesn't bother me at all. As long as Serotta still makes bikes that interest me that are in my price range, I don't care what they do on the high end. (Even if I did have to buy my Legend used to get a price I thought was reasonable).

There are plenty of folks out there that won't mind spending the money for this frame and will be interested in carbon, why is it so bad that they have something to buy? If this works the way things often work, then eventually what Ben and co. learn with this bike will trickle down the bikes I'm willing to buy.

My wife and I both have the cheapest model available for the car we own, and neither car cost over $20 K. I could have afforded something more expensive, but I don't see the value in it. But that doesn't mean it offends me that folks out there drive BMWs and Mercedes, which in my eyes are the equivalent of this new frame. A huge premium for some upgraded performance that I wouldn�t notice anyway the way I drive. I�m glad those folks have cars that fit their value system; as long as I can find cars that fit mine, then we all win.

What bothers you all? Is it that there is a model higher up on the food chain than the one you own? Heck, that was already the case for me and I don�t have Ottrot lust or Ottrot envy. I�m very happy with what I have and I hope that this bike makes other people very happy as well.

I just finished running some errands on my touring bike, now I�m going out for a quick 25 on my Legend. All is good in my world.

JohnS

08-16-2005, 04:35 PM

Maybe, but I thought the Ottrott was too much to pay for a frame & fork. I still do, even though this new one is topping out at $8,000. What that does for me, as Sandy said too, is turn me off to Serotta as over priced and points me in other directions.

William
It doesn't bother me one bit. I'm not one that has to have the "best" or the "latest". I determined my needs 5 years ago and bought a Concours with Chorus. In another 5 years I'll still be riding it and still be happy.

Sandy

08-16-2005, 04:36 PM

1. The price of the Ottrott only increased from its initial price.

2. It won't work with the wives. They will tell you not to buy any Serotta, as they will note that the new Serotta costs as much as their last car. :)

Still Shocked Sandy

keno

08-16-2005, 04:39 PM

William

08-16-2005, 04:40 PM

Even though I have a similar sense of value as Sandy, this doesn't bother me at all. As long as Serotta still makes bikes that interest me that are in my price range, I don't care what they do on the high end. (Even if I did have to buy my Legend used to get a price I thought was reasonable).

...What bothers you all? Is it that there is a model higher up on the food chain than the one you own? Heck, that was already the case for me and I don�t have Ottrot lust or Ottrot envy. I�m very happy with what I have and I hope that this bike makes other people very happy as well.

I just finished running some errands on my touring bike, now I�m going out for a quick 25 on my Legend. All is good in my world.

I think has a lot to do with the fact that they just killed off the lower end bike that was interesting to a lot of people. People were bumming about the demise of the CSI, and before that has worn off, it's announced that there is a new $8,000 model for us. Now, I am no marketing guru, but the two announcemnts in the same week to Serotta fans is a tough pill to swallow...at least to me.

William

Sandy

08-16-2005, 04:47 PM

Does theree not reach a price at which most everyone will say that the price is simply too much? I am sure that Serotta believes that it will sell enough bikes at that price AND profit margin to make the pricing reasonable to them.

Surely, there will always be buyers of Porsche Turbos and $20,000,000 homes. But how many? Serotta must assume that there will be enough. Only problem is, that there is probably no need to buy the $20,000,000 house, since there is another one in the neighborhood that is just as good, and can be bought for $10,000,000.

Hey, maybe Serotta believes that it can sell more and/or make a bigger profit by charging $8,000 instead of $4,500. Maybe they think that when some potential buyers see a $8,000 priced Serotta, then that buyer might believe that it must be better, because it costs more.

Still Shocked STill Serotta Sandy

Bradford

08-16-2005, 04:49 PM

I think they just killed off the lower end bike that was interesting to a lot of people.
William

Although true, I come to a different conclusion.

They have limited space in their factory; they need space dedicated to a new technology that is different enought that it cannot be shared with other techonologies (e.g. welding and brazing stations); they have a technology that is not profitable for them; so, the answer is move the office space, kill the unprofitable line, give all of that space to the new technology, and then you make a big splash when you introduce the product.

By the way, the CSi was not low priced, it was mid priced. Aren't the CIII, CDA, Fierte steel lower priced options?

The big difference between our points of view is that I've always been bothered by the high-end image that Serottas project. I have never been comfortable riding a bike that costs this much. That's why I like the fact that I have matt decals on a polished bike, no one recongnizes that I have an expensive bike. For me, there is no difference between a company that sells an Ottrot and a company that sells this new bike. They are both in the same catagory for me. I think we agree on how it makes us feel, its just that I got there with the Ottrot and I've learned to deal with it (somewhat, at least).

Sandy

08-16-2005, 04:49 PM

I always questioned the value of a woman's expensive diamond ring and a man's tie.

Sandy

Bradford

08-16-2005, 04:52 PM

Does theree not reach a price at which most everyone will say that the price is simply too much?

Common sense says yes, market research says no. This is one of the things that continues to baffle me, but if you look around, you will find that there are plenty of people willing to shell out huge bucks for status or performance (e.g. Rolex or just about any fancy car).

This is just the begining for Serotta and carbon. Look for something in the Legend price range for '07, if not sooner. (think Ottrot and Nove).

Sandy

08-16-2005, 04:54 PM

So just how much would you pay for 1 bushel basket of beautiful bradford pears? $10, $20, $100, $1,000? I just want to know? How about if the basket was carbon fiber, with a carbon handle? :)

Sandy

Kevan

08-16-2005, 04:54 PM

but they will eventually pay.

We here clamored about the Ottrott, and later the ugliness of Dura-Ace 10, but now we take it all in stride, or simple don't take it at all, but certainly we no longer flinch when others choose in this direction.

Heck with the tuna sandwich buddy, look what's happening at the gas pump and American summer travel, it hasn't flinched there either as prices top $3 or better. Same thing here, I suspect Serotta will prosper. I suspect the fine folk that offer us this swell sandbox would appreciate some patience until we become more informed about their product.

I think I should take this opportunity too to say, "I told you so!", when months.. okay, maybe years back we debated whether this all-carbon day would ever come to Serottaville. Evolution, whether actually evolving or as some think here as �dissolving�, is the market trend and Serotta had to respond to it. Whether you think this bike is fishy or out of scale, I know the pictures from happy customers are on their way to the gallery here.

Bradford

08-16-2005, 04:55 PM

So just how much would you pay for 1 bushel basket of beautiful bradford pears? $10, $20, $100, $1,000? I just want to know? How about if the basket was carbon fiber, with a carbon handle? :)
Sandy

I'm a cheapskate, so I'd buy the over ripe pears for half price.

Sandy

08-16-2005, 04:57 PM

My wife and I are going out to a salad bar restaurant.

I have a feeling that Serotta will not allow me to go to the Serotta weekend, nest year.

Actually, I really love the folks at Serotta. I really do. Even the ones who left Rapid T and Serotta Sandy as road kill when we were lost on the Saturday ride.

Fruit Salad Sandy

keno

08-16-2005, 04:57 PM

http://www.zappos.com/n/p/dp/4512991/c/3.html? Imagine if they were carbon?

But you never answered my question.

keno

William

08-16-2005, 05:00 PM

The big difference between our points of view is that I've always been bothered by the high-end image that Serottas project. I have never been comfortable riding a bike that costs this much. That's why I like the fact that I have matt decals on a polished bike, no one recongnizes that I have an expensive bike. For me, there is no difference between a company that sells an Ottrot and a company that sells this new bike. They are both in the same catagory for me. I think we agree on how it makes us feel, its just that I got there with the Ottrot and I've learned to deal with it (somewhat, at least).

Well, I guess that's why i like the Stealthy Blackbird/Skunkbird. Same type of feeling.
I know there are folks that will buy it. I'm just disgusted in general with the way pricing is headed in this industry. This price tag is a prime example, and if it sells, others will follow. It is what it is.

William

Dr. Doofus

08-16-2005, 05:02 PM

guy who looks

doof-ish

says

"the problem, I think, is not the serotta will now sell a carbon frame and fork for eight thousand dollars. that is, in the context of the development of western civilization, just another instance that the borgias, bernard mandeville, and harry lime were right: striving for obscene luxury (which although luxurious, is not, I think obscene) is, when all is said and done, the pinnacle of the system of which we all partake for our mutual benefit (and exploitation).

to swim with the fish on this thread, the problem occurs when one looks around and sees that either A) sandwich makers, adapting to the market, decide that tuna fish is no longer suitable for "good" sandwiches made by good sandwich makers, or B) that tuna fish is the only material for "good" sandwiches made by good sandwich makers, and therefore the price of tuna fish must go up to exploit its cachet.

in the first case, those who would like a good sandwich must find esoteric sandwich artisans who still believe in tuna, settle for mediocre sandwiches, or abandon their lunch habit. in the second case, tunaphiles must adjust their food budgets, or give up tuna as beyond their means.

as the metaphor is sinking faster than its well-hooked self, its time to go back to bikes. my concern is that good bikes are gradually becoming ridiculous luxuries -- which is what I, on my $51,000 teacher's salary, would call a frame that sells for $2,000 or more. When steel was the dominant material -- my college days in the mid-eighties -- a first-rate production frame would go for $600 on up. As a shop rat, I was able to get a nice race bike for a reasonable price. now, we have the "material wars" and rocketing frame prices -- better and newer must be more expensive, and less desired technologies either become hyper-desired (a sachs) or low-level flotsam and jetsam on the shop floor.

why, please tell me, is the $1000.00 well-made kick butt steel racing frame not a desireable commodity in today's market? are we so stupid that we won't buy a good bike unless it has an outrageous price tag? is the knowledgeable rider who wants a good bike at the mercy of the moron who won't consider steel as a frame material, and thus we only have AL bikes in the affordable range? is it simply not worth a company's time to have a skilled welder build to the specifications of a skilled designer if the product will only sell for 1000.00?

i am, in this case, the voice of irrelevance."

what doof heard

anyway

flyingscot

08-16-2005, 05:08 PM

Wanna know something even scarier?

In the UK an Ottrott ST and F3 fork retails for �4635 (that�s around $8100 at todays rates)

Given this new bike is meant to be around a 30% premium (is this right?) then you come to the stunning figure of �6k (or $10.5k) FOR A FRAME AND FORK !!!!!!!!!!!! :crap:

JohnS

08-16-2005, 05:13 PM

guy who looks

doof-ish

says

as the metaphor is sinking faster than its well-hooked self, its time to go back to bikes. my concern is that good bikes are gradually becoming ridiculous luxuries -- which is what I, on my $51,000 teacher's salary, would call a frame that sells for $2,000 or more. When steel was the dominant material -- my college days in the mid-eighties, a first-rate production frame would go for $600 on up. As a shop rat, I was able to get a nice race bike for a reasonable price. then we have the "material wars" and rocketing frame prices -- better and newer must be more expensive, and less desired technologies either become hyper-desired (a sachs) or low-level flotsam and jetsam on the shop floor.

why, please tell me, is the $1000.00 well-made kick butt racing frame not a desireable animal in today's market? are we so stupid that we won't buy a good bike unless it has an outrageous price tag? is the knowledgeable rider who wants a good bike at the mercy of the moron who won't consider steel as a frame material, and thus we only have AL bikes in the affordable range? is it simply not worth a company's time to have a skilled welder build to the specifications of a skilled designer if the product will only sell for 1000.00?

i am, in this case, the voice of irrelevance."

what doof heard

anyway
Well, you do have your summers free if you want to get a parttime job to support your "habit". :D

Bruce Jacobs

08-16-2005, 05:13 PM

I have ridden carbon bikes and felt they were a little too stiff for me at this point but I had seriously considered the Guru before buying the Legend ST since it can be built to a Serotta template. Pricewise it is around the Parlee. I believe Pinarello has a frame that is out there somewhere and people drool over the Lance Signature bike in the LBS at $25K. Build it and they will pay.

Dr. Doofus

08-16-2005, 05:21 PM

Well, you do have your summers free if you want to get a parttime job to support your "habit". :D

free?

"conferences, workshops, and preparing next year's curriculum (if you're doing the job correctly)...hardly."*

*there are some slackers who fit the stereotype. doof is not one.

anyway

bike prices

=

booty**

** required scatalogical put-down

mtflycaster

08-16-2005, 05:26 PM

I'm with Bradford on this. Purely a biz decision and a desire to maximize profit in light of market considerations. I do see them positioning themselves more and more at the higher end of the market. Maybe they sell fewer bikes, but still generate more total profit.

Also, who actually was doing all the brazing and filing for the lugged CSI at Serotta? Maybe they recognized that they don't have, or recently lost, the talent available to do as fine a job as DK, RS, TK or many others who specialize in the art, so Ben decided not to put out a product which could not reliably meet his own personal standards? Pure speculation on my part.

Everybody has a different value proposition when it comes to material goods, bikes included, and that's cool. For example, I'd rather have two great bikes than only one more rare, or more exotic, or of higher social status. But that's just me.

:confused:

bcm119

08-16-2005, 05:35 PM

It seems like the existence of this super-luxury Serotta model doesn't actually affect anyone unless they plan on buying one. That is probably a very small percentage of people, so why all the energy spent on b/itching about it?

The profits gained by Serotta as a result of this thing can only be good for the employees, who seem like a nice bunch of people. The only suckers are the guys buying them. Think of it like a voluntary tax for the rich, benefitting our favorite bike company. Sounds okay to me... at least there will be well-paid employees still around in 4 years to re-paint my CIII.

Climb01742

08-16-2005, 05:42 PM

an unmentioned element here is how the bike will ride. maybe ben and co. have engineered something extraordinary. is a 100K 911 turbo twice as "good" as an audi s4? hard to say. but in fairness, we should await a production model and judge then. will any performance justify the price? it makes even me shake my head, and i just bought a vxrs. i'm skeptical that any frame could that much better than, say, a parlee or a time to justify the price difference.

jdoiv

08-16-2005, 05:43 PM

Ok, I'll put my .02 out there (or my foot in my mouth trying).
I bought a Colorado Legend TI back in 1994 which I still own.
At the time it was at or near the top of the price spectrum for bicycles.
I spent ~$5k on the bike then. By adjusting for inflation, the same bicycle by todays standards would cost me ~$6400.
That said, I've been out of cycling for several years and just started to get back into it. One thing I've noticed is that some things never change. There will always be people who equate price with quality (whether it exists between the two or not). Or there will be people who are influenced by what pro rides what brand (or insert frame material choice) they ride. Not that by buying said product will actually make them any faster, but they think that it will. As long as they see value in it, they will buy it.
Now, maybe I'm just getting older and cheaper, but I don't think I would make the same buying decisions today than I did 10 years ago. And I certainly don't think I would pay $8k for a FRAME (knowing that adjusted for inflation it should be a whole lot less). But I don't blame a company for seeing a market and trying to make money off it. Just don't expect to see any of my money. (unless I buy it used off ebay)

John

P.S. Inflation calculator is at http://www.westegg.com/inflation/

cyclesberuff

08-16-2005, 05:53 PM

I'm a steel kinda fool, if I were to drop my steak I can always pick it back up, clean it and throw it back on the plate.I can't do that with caviar.I would be bummed to walk home with 4,000 in each hand.

ergott

08-16-2005, 06:36 PM

Any raffle tickets left?

bulliedawg

08-16-2005, 07:04 PM

on my $51,000 teacher's salary

I hope teachers in Georgia and Florida don't get wind that teachers in South Carolina are making $51,000 or there will be an exodus. Them's New Jersey/New York teacher salaries.

JohnS

08-16-2005, 07:23 PM

I hope teachers in Georgia and Florida don't get wind that teachers in South Carolina are making $51,000 or there will be an exodus. Them's New Jersey/New York teacher salaries.
If the Doof is actually a Doc, he'd be making about 60K in the Detroit area.

dbrk

08-16-2005, 07:31 PM

will any performance justify the price?

No.
That's the short answer.

The long answer: No %&^ing way!

But justified or not in performance or price does anyone doubt that Climb's gonna have one? You watch, ol'Climbpal. And there's nothing wrong with that, 'cause people can spend their money or ride their bikes anyway they want and why should I be bothered? This is the sort of bike that you would love and, well, I could never.

***
I tell'ya', this announcement _and_ the Adieu, CSi leaves me feeling that "high end" bikes will soon split into two main camps: crafted steel and carbon customs, with some middle ground still held by titanium because it is easy to weld, easier still to cut and craft (than steel), and easy money in terms of profit margins. But really, carbon will soon be so dominant that metal bikes will be considered, to use a recent description, "archaic" whether or not they are joined with lugs. The great craftsmen of the guild (Sachs, Kirk, Goodrich, Weigle, Eisentraut, even the youngsters like White) will have enough work, likely plenty of work. But it is a carbon world ahead as far as single purpose race bikes are concerned and Serotta has clearly decided to place itself as the "leader" of that trend in "competitive" bicycles.

There may yet be a new, affordable lugged steel "race" bike --- a "ten-speed" as we used to call such bikes--- made in America, designed for everyday riding, racing, and fun. In fact, I would bet on it. I think it will answer to those who want the sort of bike the great craftsmen make as custom but without custom costs or long waits, and, yes, fewer options but still a great ride. Think: RB-1, Masi GC, or, yes, CSi or Atlanta back when they were not too much more. Yup, I'd bet a ham sandwich on it.

dbrk

Dr. Doofus

08-16-2005, 07:44 PM

If the Doof is actually a Doc, he'd be making about 60K in the Detroit area.

Ph.D. + 8 years experience = whatever in any given district

Dr. Doofus

08-16-2005, 07:47 PM

There may yet be a new, affordable lugged steel "race" bike --- a "ten-speed" as we used to call such bikes--- made in America, designed for everyday riding, racing, and fun. In fact, I would bet on it. I think it will answer to those who want the sort of bike the great craftsmen make as custom but without custom costs or long waits, and, yes, fewer options but still a great ride. Think: RB-1, Masi GC, or, yes, CSi or Atlanta back when they were not too much more. Yup, I'd bet a ham sandwich on it.

dbrk

point doof the way, brutha...show him something he can "slam" his pathetic 280-300 watts at threshold into, crash and not have to throw away...

and make it RB-1 money, not CSi money

William

08-16-2005, 08:00 PM

I hope teachers in Georgia and Florida don't get wind that teachers in South Carolina are making $51,000 or there will be an exodus. Them's New Jersey/New York teacher salaries.

The good Doctor earns his fee. He teaches special classes and is the only educator in the Carolinas that has determined how much wood a Woodchuck chucks.
http://www.londonstimes.us/toons/cartoons/johann_woodchuck.jpg

William ;)

Dr. Doofus

08-16-2005, 08:04 PM

ok

so billy found

doof pics

(dirt should see the hot beaver across the hall)

MartyE

08-16-2005, 08:13 PM

Kevan got it right,
there was much whinging and gnashing of tee when
the Ottrott came out. How many of us said No way?
I would bet that in a years time we will see copious
threads touting the ride of the midivici or whatever the
heck it's called.
I agree with DBRK, high end will be either custom steel
(and e-RICHIE's wait list will soon hit 5 years if it hasn't already)
and custom Carbon fibre. In that light Serotta is at the
forefront for a production shop.

And I just paid 50Euro for a perfectly good almost mint
Jan de Reus.

Marty

jerk

08-16-2005, 08:14 PM

dbrk

08-16-2005, 08:14 PM

Ph.D. + 8 years experience = whatever in any given district

Academics is modern day asceticism ---it's the last refuge of contemplatives because no one is doing it for the money, especially in the Humanities. There are Phd with eight years teaching experience who make less than dr. doof in major research Universities and liberal arts colleges in America. Like the good dr. doof, such persons don't have summers "off" but different responsibilities: when you are young it's publish or perish, when you are older (say...uh...like me), it's a million adminstrative and academic matters. It's all about what we value in America and academics is not where we put our money or our values. (I have French colleagues who are paid whether or not they teach at all because French society regards their work done _privately_ to be an asset to their culture and to the world. Could you imagine Americans thinking such a thing?) We'd like to pay teachers nothing if we could because we've all be "taught" to "hate" taxes and that teachers are, for the most part, lazy idiots! We are, of course, getting better than we pay for in those who commit to academics because such persons do it for love, for personal satisfaction, and not for the money. My hat's off to you dr. doof. I know I could not teach "school." I can barely teach college age kids anymore for the way education has been reduced to vocations, "something you can use," and other mere means to monetary ends. College students seem mostly to want to ride carbon and I teach with "archaic" steel methods that include real books (no Internet "research"), real exams in blue books ("Write with a pen? Are you kidding, Professor?"), and real grades (I give them, they get them, NO further conversation.) But no complaints here because I feel very lucky to have had the opportunity to become an educated person in this life and also to ride beautiful bicycles, like a lugged steel Serotta. (All posts deserve gratuitous bike content.)

dbrk

Sandy

08-16-2005, 08:22 PM

be honest with me now. Could you imagine a few years ago, when the Ottrott first came out, buying that tuna fish sandwich (BTW, I see it morphed into a sub by the end of your first post)?

Maybe not an aside, but I simply do not understand why people pay the huge amounts of money that they do for jewelry, particularly diamonds. Then, again, I'm thinking that many women prefer spending time in expensive Park Avenue shops and their men in strip clubs, so to speak, and the cost of the jewelry is some insurance that never the twain shall meet.

keno

Per usual, your question is an excellent one. Certainly Serotta must think that enough sales will be generated. I bought my Ottrott in 2004, and received an excellent price, for the entire package of the items I bought. But the 2005 price simply reached the level at which I decided that no matter the ride of the bike, I would not be interested.

Now we are talking about a $8,000 frameset. The starting point is simply so far above outstanding carbon bikes like Calfee, Parlee, and Colnago. Serotta just told us that the Ottrott is now its standard. Just a few days later, there is now a new bike, costing thousands more than their standard of excellence. So now a carbon down tube, chain stays, and head tube are added, with carbon lugs (assuming that it is all carbon). Which bike is their standard now? The Ottrott or the new carbon bike? Perhaps, it will simply be marketed as the "best" carbon bike, and it will not be compared to the Ottrott at all.

I really didn't imagine buying an Ottrott when it first came out. But an initial price of $8,000 is simply totally incongruent with a "normal" rate of price increase, and most importantly, probably even more incongruent with the "bang for your bucks" approach, when the new carbon bike is compared to what is offered in the market place.

Sizzling Sirloin Steak Serotta Sandy

dbrk

08-16-2005, 08:24 PM

point doof the way, brutha...show him something he can "slam" his pathetic 280-300 watts at threshold into, crash and not have to throw away...
and make it RB-1 money, not CSi money

Follow the ham, Doctor. And while you're contemplating such porcine delights wander back in your memory to climbing the Gavia in a snow storm on the way to winning a major tour. Only then think how cool it would be to have a modern, updated, _affordable_ lugged steel bike that tastes so good and has such a pedigree.

dbrk

Bradford

08-16-2005, 08:24 PM

real grades (I give them, they get them, NO further conversation.)

You are my kind of Professor.

Where I went to school, there was a Professor who used to start each semester with the following introduction: �My name is Hunt Terrell: God gets As, I get Bs, and you all fight for the rest.�

Dr. Doofus

08-16-2005, 08:29 PM

There are Phd with eight years teaching experience who make less than dr. doof in major research Universities and liberal arts colleges in America

dbrk

which is one reason why doof is no longer teaching in an...ahem...liberal arts college

the other?

dfoo decided that the need for him to spout off regularly in a journal or book (which he pulled from publication and went to work in a health food store...but that's another story) when he truly had little to say (doof is an intellectual gregario...and campiones are rarer than most in academia are likely to admit) was an impediment, rather than a stimulus, towards whatever intellectual growth is.

teaching the average 12th grader how to read and actually enjoy Beowulf , now that's a challenge...and in doof's rodent eyes (thank you william), more useful....

anyway, doof doesn't want a world-class race bike. he just wants a good steel race bike for a decent price...not some AL piece of pelican poop....

throw down that sanskrit manuscript brooks, and get the hampstens on project RB-throwback

Sandy

08-16-2005, 08:32 PM

A guy walks up to you and punches you one day. You do nothing.

Second day- the same guy walks up to you, and punches you twice. You do nothing.

Third day- same guy, three punches. You do nothing, but you start to think.

Fourth day- same guy, four punches. You do nothing, but you are really starting to get upset and angry......

..... Fifteeth day- same guy, fifteen punches. You finally realize that enough is enough, and you fight back or you turn around and run...You get to the point that you are not going to take the increased number of punches.

Southpaw Slugger Sandy

shinomaster

08-16-2005, 08:34 PM

sandy...I wish I painted a tuna sandwich on that mug I made you......

dirtdigger88

08-16-2005, 08:35 PM

sandy

its going to take you 15 days to fight back? you need to talk to big william

Jason

Sandy

08-16-2005, 08:39 PM

You got that right.

Righty Sandy

shinomaster

08-16-2005, 08:42 PM

state of the art racing bikes are underpriced. go into your local ferrari dealer and try to buy michael schumacher's car. even if you had the money, they wouldn't sell it to you. go try to get a membership at pebble beach....go see if you can buy an america's cup boat.....see how much a week in vail and all the equipment adds up to. suffice it to say this incessant whining about the prices of the most refined, technologically advanced, beautiful, honest and sublime machines in the whole universe confuses and annoys the jerk.

you can walk into your local bike shop, or go on the interweb and buy the same exact machine tom booned won flanders on, or that lance won the tour de france on, or with a little perserverance you can even buy the same wheels and frames the best riders in the world buy out of there own pockets when they feel the sponsered equipment just isn't quite good enough. for the same amount of money as the world's worst most basic piece of crap internal combustion four wheeled transportation, you can have a racing bicycle better than what the majority of the world's best cyclists race and win on.
what are you complaining about again?

jerk

All true...but, do you think prices are rising at a rate much higher than that of inflation, the cost of the Euro, or the increase in technology in the average bike part or frame?
How many of us would have paid $350 for a stem 10 years ago? Anyone? Even a carbon quill stem that said "I love Serotta"?
I think we as a society have gotten used to paying very high prices for technology, and companies know this and make new products and price them as high as they possibly can..There is no end in sight. I can see Campy Record costing $5000 in the next 10 years...I just can't wait...

To answer you question Sandy I would pay $10. for grilled Ahi tuna sanwich with some mighty fine trimmings.

Sandy

08-16-2005, 08:47 PM

If I could meet you and ride with you, I would gladly pay $ 40 for a tuna sandwich for me and one for you.

Salmon Salad Sandwich Sandy

Sandy

08-16-2005, 08:56 PM

csb

08-16-2005, 08:58 PM

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.robotcombat.com/images/store_cfshoneyc_lg.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.robotcombat.com/store_carbon_fiber_sand.html&h=250&w=432&sz=10&tbnid=0YBeZSvEmgoJ:&tbnh=71&tbnw=123&hl=en&start=1&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dcarbon%2Bfiber%2Bsandwich%26svnum%3D1 0%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8

this will be extra: http://web.kraftfoods.com/greypoupon/

Sandy

08-16-2005, 09:05 PM

Wow! Now that is some "lite" eating. :)

Stuffed Sandy

jerk

08-16-2005, 09:16 PM

" state of the art racing bikes are underpriced" What percent of cycling recreational enthusiasts or cycling racers can afford these "state of the art" bikes? Many cyclists believe that these bikes ride no better than more "archaic" ones.

Assuming that Team Discovery rode CSi's during the Tour. Who would have won? Team Discovery. Do you doubt that?

Sandy

the jerk doesn't particularly care whether or not most cycling enthusiasts or cycling racers can afford a state of the art racing bike...nor should the manufacturer. andy walser, richard sachs, dario pegoretti and ben serotta aren't pricing their bikes to get one in every garage...that being said, nearly every fat american figures out some way to afford that new car they can't really afford. a pro-race bike is cheap. it doesn't even cost anything to use.

if team discovery rode csi's during the tour they would not have won because they wouldn't have been a big enough team to be in the tour de france. take this as you will. michael schumacher won alot of races even when he didn't have the fastest car. plus, no one here is saying that a bicycle made out of steel and joined with lugs can't be a state of the art racing bicycle. go ask justin spinelli what the best, fastest bike he's ever ridden is.....it ain't the c40 navigators gave him nor is it a the cannondale which may or may not have been built by cannondale......hint: it's red and steel.

modern race bikes are faster than archaic ones. that is a fact. don't confuse this statement to mean that modern racing bikes can't be made out of steel. the jerk's big leg emma will kill any other bike on any crit/kermesse/short course race.

jerk

H.Frank Beshear

08-16-2005, 09:26 PM

hint: it's red and steel.
With white panels? :D Frank

slowgoing

08-16-2005, 09:28 PM

nearly every fat american figures out some way to afford that new car they can't really afford.

I guess we should see what kind of leasing options Serotta offers.

Sandy

08-16-2005, 09:39 PM

You make some very valid and excellent points. I can see that bikes that push the envelope are not really aimed at the average bicycle buyer. I also understand that Serotta has its own niche in the market place.

Modern race bikes may be faster than "archaic" ones, but the fastest bike is most often not the best choice for even the "fast recreational cyclist". But a pro race bike and/or the new bikes that push the envelope are not cheap for the great majority of recreational riders and even hard core racers.

I like the way you make your points. You surely don't sugar coat it.

Kevan's Sugar Daddy

csb

08-16-2005, 10:10 PM

http://img.epinions.com/images/opti/01/bf/1044022-movie-resized200.jpg

Spinsistah

08-16-2005, 10:28 PM

I never thought I'd have an Ottrott, and if I had to pay full retail for it, I wouldn't. It's a great bike, but if I had bought it new, I'd have around $8000 in it. That's just crazy - I can't afford $8k bikes let alone $8k frames. But I bet the Meivici is just beautiful; can't wait to see it Friday. Maybe I can get one in a couple of years off eBay...... :)

cyclesberuff

08-16-2005, 10:37 PM

I agree with Jerk that one of the lures to this sport is that we can buy the same equipment as the pros ride, this makes us feel closer to a connection with professionalism which unites us with-in the same vein.Why else do we buy bikes with team colors?
It's also the great equalizer,same equipment but not the same results. Speaking for myself that is.

dbrk

08-16-2005, 11:12 PM

I agree with Jerk that one of the lures to this sport is that we can buy the same equipment as the pros ride, this makes us feel closer to a connection with professionalism...
It's also the great equalizer,same equipment but not the same results...

What pros ride Ottrotts? What pros will ride the MeiVici? Aren't these bikes better made and putatively more high tech than, say, 90% of the pro's sponsored bikes? I'm not sure I understand your point.

I enjoy watching professional cycling, it's entertaining. I ride a few modern high-tech bikes (the ParleeZ1 counts, doesn't it?) but is there really anyone here over 30 who still is lured to the sport of cycling because of what the pros ride? You're kidding, right?

What does my recreational riding have to do with pros exactly? As far as I can tell, nothing--- about the same as having the urge to ride an 8K frame around these beautiful hills when I know from experience that I'll be just as happy on a bike that a modern pro would never ride except for nostalgia photo ops.

dbrk

Sandy

08-16-2005, 11:15 PM

If you promise to flatten the hills and let me walk with and play with Mira the Wonder Hound, I will ride some archaic bike with you. :)

Not fully lugged, but certainly archaic,

Sandy

FunkyPorcini

08-17-2005, 12:20 AM

Thank you Mr. Sachs, Mr. Kirk, Mr. White, et all, for continuing to believe and working hard to give us the option to ride a beautifully crafted bicycle that is increasingly harder to find in the larger market. I hope to join in some day but until then I will continue to spread the word and smile my a$$ off while I truck down the road on my carbon/iron frame because I still have so much fun.

Climb01742

08-17-2005, 04:04 AM

Follow the ham, Doctor. And while you're contemplating such porcine delights wander back in your memory to climbing the Gavia in a snow storm on the way to winning a major tour. Only then think how cool it would be to have a modern, updated, _affordable_ lugged steel bike that tastes so good and has such a pedigree.

dbrk

sounds like a business plan to me. sounds like douglas and the brothers hampsten have been in the cycling kitchen cookin' up some things. which is wonderful. which also makes me wonder at your obvious, and quite sincere, pain, sadness and frustration at the turn of events at serotta. they've closed a door. they've gone down a road. which opens a door for you (and others.) which leaves you a less travelled road to ride down and say, hey, come ride this ride! that's not an occassion for sadness, i don't think. celebrate. if big ad agencies weren't so f*cked up, there would not have been, 5 years ago, a door open for 3 guys in a garage to start a company. nor would there be today 50 people in an old factory doing something "their" way. douglas, you are clearly -- and wonderfully -- doing something "your" way. ain't that awesome? so with affection i say, quit your belly-aching and buiild the world some great affordable steel bikes...ben and an entire industry have opened the door...pretty simple choice...bellyache or build...coming from someone who 5 years ago had the same choice...the world is full of abandoned factories and abandoned people starving to work for a company that stands for something, that's willing to strike out on the road less cycled and do it a different way. go for it...as it sounds like you already are...the world needs more companies with soul and a mission.

William

08-17-2005, 05:06 AM

...they've closed a door. they've gone down a road. which opens a door for you (and others.) which leaves you a less travelled road to ride down and say, hey, come ride this ride! that's not an occassion for sadness, i don't think. celebrate. if big ad agencies weren't so f*cked up, there would not have been, 5 years ago, a door open for 3 guys in a garage to start a company. nor would there be today 50 people in an old factory doing something "their" way. douglas, you are clearly -- and wonderfully -- doing something "your" way. ain't that awesome? so with affection i say, quit your belly-aching and buiild the world some great affordable steel bikes...ben and an entire industry have opened the door......the world needs more companies with soul and a mission.

Good points Climb. Douglas, build them, and they will come.

William

William

08-17-2005, 05:21 AM

teaching the average 12th grader how to read and actually enjoy Beowulf , now that's a challenge...and in doof's rodent eyes (thank you william), more useful....

It was meant most respectfully (in my skewed sort of way).

anyway, doof doesn't want a world-class race bike. he just wants a good steel race bike for a decent price...not some AL piece of pelican poop....

throw down that sanskrit manuscript brooks, and get the hampstens on project RB-throwback[/QUOTE]

I'm with you there good sir. Me being of larger proportions then your av-er-age bear, has the unfortunate prospect of going custom on just about any bike I would want. Now I'm not plunking 8,000 buckaroos on a frame to begin with, but for me it would be 8,000 plus. That's just a fact of life.

Don't get me wrong, my beef is more with the cycling industry in general then specifically with Serotta. Serotta makes nice stuff. My percieved value of what bikes should cost are being exceeded. Others will feel differently. Such is life.

I'll join the good Dr. on his search for a good steel race bike for a decent price..."not some AL piece of pelican poop...." ;)

William

William

keno

08-17-2005, 06:21 AM

"keno,

A guy walks up to you and punches you one day. You do nothing.

Second day- the same guy walks up to you, and punches you twice. You do nothing.

Third day- same guy, three punches. You do nothing, but you start to think.

Fourth day- same guy, four punches. You do nothing, but you are really starting to get upset and angry......

..... Fifteeth day- same guy, fifteen punches. You finally realize that enough is enough, and you fight back or you turn around and run...You get to the point that you are not going to take the increased number of punches."

Sandy, it sounds better than it analyzes. BEN NEVER LAID A GLOVE ON YOU, ME OR ANYONE ELSE, NOR WILL HE. YOU, AND SOME OTHERS, ARE IMAGINING THAT HE IS DOING SOMETHING TO YOU AND TO THEM, WHICH HE IS NOT. AND, EVEN IF YOU IMAGINE BEN AS A BULLY PUNCHING YOU, YOU SOUGHT HIM OUT AND STUCK YOUR PUSS IN HIS FIST. THE BEAUTY OF THE MARKET PLACE IS THAT THERE IS NO IMPERATIVE TO JUMP IN THE RING. THERE IS NO GOOD REASON TO HATE THE OTHER "FIGHTER" BECAUSE HE HAS MORE CONTROL OVER YOU THAN YOU OVER HIM.

Enough with the capital letters as they are so much harder to type. If you want to read something I think actually has much to do with what some perceive as some kind of problem here, read Malcolm Gladwell's "Tipping Point". It has much to say about what happens when boutique businesses attempt to de-boutique themselves. Serotta, on the other hand, seems to be re-boutiquing itself.

keno

BumbleBeeDave

08-17-2005, 06:40 AM

. . . will sell every one they can make. They will not sell one to me. No way in the world I can justify that much for a frame and fork.

BBDave

Sandy

08-17-2005, 06:44 AM

You got me all wrong there, my friend.

I never thought in any manner at all that Ben did something to me or to anyone else. My analogy had nothing to do with punching or getting hurt by anyone. It was simply being used to show that after as certain period of time, people often make the decsion that an ever increasing escalation (in this case the pricing of bicycles), in a price of an object has reached the point that it is simply too much for them to accept. It takes time and experience to make that decision. The time frame differs for individuals. For some, it may never come.

Ben and company priced an object- a bicycle. Take it or leave it. I already decided to leave it. Even prior to it being unvailed. No one hurt or intended to hurt anyone.

You got me all wrong on this one. I have utter respect for Ben Serotta and company. I find him to be gracious, highly ethical, sensitive, and a highly caring individual, who would't want to hurt anyone. I just think that his new bicycle is much too high for me, and probably a whole lot of other cyclists.

Serotta does what it wants to do. I simply choose to say that, to me, the new bike is outrageously priced in today's marketplace. Nothing more, nothing less. I certainly am not saying anything about any person at all.

Heck, Ben Serotta is the one who gives us a venue to say what we want to say.

Sandy

bostondrunk

08-17-2005, 06:58 AM

go ask justin spinelli what the best, fastest bike he's ever ridden is.....it ain't the c40 navigators gave him nor is it a the cannondale which may or may not have been built by cannondale......hint: it's red and steel.
jerk

Hard to give credit to a pro rider's particular bike brand when he was blocked on drugs for part of his career, no?
ahhh...flame away...

keno

08-17-2005, 06:59 AM

don't you hate it when people refer to you as "my friend"? It's too middle eastern for me and all that that connotes, even with us both on the same side of the fence.

Anyhow, did you seriously think that I was saying anything whatsoever about Ben? It was about the logic of your analogy I wrote. Incidentally, you choose punching as the medium of communication in your analogy, which does not at all fit with your feelings as you now express them. BTW, it never crossed my mind that you would be reading, let alone replying to, my post before noon.

keno

William

08-17-2005, 07:00 AM

You got me all wrong on this one. I have utter respect for Ben Serotta and company. I find him to be gracious, highly ethical, sensitive, and a highly caring individual, who would't want to hurt anyone. I just think that his new bicycle is much too high for me, and probably a whole lot of other cyclists.

Serotta does what it wants to do. I simply choose to say that, to me, the new bike is outrageously priced in today's marketplace. Nothing more, nothing less. I certainly am not saying anything about any person at all.

Heck, Ben Serotta is the one who gives us a venue to say what we want to say.

Sandy
I'm with you there Sandy. I have the utmost respect for Mr. Serotta. He has been gracious to work with and the Serotta customer service reputation has been most true on a number of occasions for me personally. My beef is more with general trends in cycling industry.

William

Sandy

08-17-2005, 07:01 AM

It took me until 4:00 AM for me to even understand your post! :) :)

Sandy

keno

08-17-2005, 07:09 AM

now you are really starting to scare me. I didn't even post until after 7:00 am today. Are you up to that ESP stuff again? Don't you remember the last time?

keno

Sandy

08-17-2005, 07:13 AM

Nope- More like GERITOL.

Punch Drunk Sandy

Too Tall

08-17-2005, 07:21 AM

" Look here brother
Who you jivin' with that Cosmik Debris?
Now what kind of a guru are you anyway? . . .
Don't you know You could make more money as a butcher
And so, don't you waste your time on me
Don't waste it
Don't waste your time on me "
Frank Zappa, Cosmic Debris

House Italian has it right. Ben et. al. presumably conjure up a world class execution of bicycle technology and watch a fist fight break out. This from a company already know to produce only great bikes and badabing follow the money to his door. Buyers and esp. con-a-sewers of fine diversion do look at what's available in terms of is it available to the riff raff and who owns it. Price of admission is one cut and availability is another. Don't tell me you have NOT observed the "suits" in airports eyeballing each others latest PDAs, Wireless devices etc.? The cool kids do that 'chit. Bwaaa hahaahahaha, as if I am not guilty at times...just an observation friends.

Are Sandy's trepidations influenced? By recent purchase of what he thought was the top dog bike made? Buyers remorse? So Sandy, if Serotta gave you an upgrade offer to trade back your Ottrott to get the new offering would you like the idea? If the Tuna looks good and man we are talking right out of the oven rye bread with pickles grabbed fresh from the barrel by Schmendela the pickle makers son and that puppy is the size of my nose...I'm tellin you THAT's a PICKLE on the side. Would you like the idea or are you just plum happy with what you have?

Douglas, slice the ham thin 'cause I don't think these house guests are leaving anytime soon. More to the point, your love of bicycle culture and insight are relevant and not incompatible with whatever direction Serotta goes. Bicycles....remember? Same things that make an Singer sweet for a jaunt across France in a hurry can be compared, applied to say....an custom Ottrott. I say the obvious. Only wish to keep you in the fold old man :) Pineapple. Pineapple. Bannana.

Cosmic Debris cont.
The price of beef has just gone up
and .... (delteted due to family nature of the forum)
....DOWN. F. Zappa Cosmic Debris

JohnS

08-17-2005, 07:25 AM

I know I'm going to get flamed for this but I think that SOME people are upset because they either no longer have the "best" Serotta or they now can't afford the "best" Serotta.

Roy E. Munson

08-17-2005, 07:27 AM

JohnS is on the right path here.

dirtdigger88

08-17-2005, 07:28 AM

I know I'm going to get flamed for this but I think that SOME people are upset because they either no longer have the "best" Serotta or they now can't afford the "best" Serotta.

now you did it- :beer: I just want the damn model to come out so we can move on to something else in a week or two- carbon may be the wonder material for the future- but YAWN to me- sorry. Just another overpriced "me- too" bike-

Jason

Cadence230

08-17-2005, 07:28 AM

I guess we should see what kind of leasing options Serotta offers.
Mmmmm...Maybe a Ford Family Pricing Program. Discounts in the form of employee discounts. Yeah that's what I'm talkin' about! :banana: :banana: :banana:

Sandy

08-17-2005, 07:41 AM

With me, what you see is what you get. Your thoughts about me and my possible motivation are a little surprising. I have no remorse whatsoever in buying the Ottrott. I love the bike, plain and simple.

I bought the Ottrott for one and only one reason- I loved the way it rode when I test rode it. Nothing more, nothing less.

I simply think that the price of the new carbon bike is remarkably high relative to what is available in carbon and other bikes. I say that with no reservation, no matter how wonderful the new bike is. It is still only a bike.

I don't understand why one has to look for an underlying reason for my statements. If you knew me better, you would never think that I have buyer's remorse. The price for the carbon creation is really amazingly high, by most comparisons. I have no desire or need for the new bike or any other bike. I had one bike- The CSi. It took 2 years for some friends to convince me that my CSi was too small. I now ride a better fitting Ottrott. The CSi sits.

If I were to get a new bike, it would be a filet brazed steel Kirk or a lugged steel Spectrum. If Serotta still made the CSi, it might be that one.

No remorse, Too Tall. None at all. I don't see why you would possibly think that. Simply too expensive. Plain and simple. Nothing more, nothing less.

Sandy

dbrk

08-17-2005, 07:50 AM

sounds like a business plan to me. sounds like douglas and the brothers hampsten have been in the cycling kitchen cookin' up some things. which is wonderful. which also makes me wonder at your obvious, and quite sincere, pain, sadness and frustration at the turn of events at serotta.... they've closed a door. they've gone down a road. which opens a door for you (and others.) which leaves you a less travelled road to ride down and say, hey, come ride this ride! that's not an occassion for sadness, i don't think. celebrate. ... so with affection i say, quit your belly-aching and buiild the world some great affordable steel bikes...ben and an entire industry have opened the door...pretty simple choice...bellyache or build......the world needs more companies with soul and a mission.

First, I take no credit for the forthcoming affordable lugged steel bike which indeed keeps open the door to those who think steel and lugs are an excellent material choice. The credit belongs entirely to others who you all "know"; my own role has been minimal though at its heart is a fantastic collaboration of talents. Write to the principals to receive more information. I don't wish to cross the line between "outing" and advertisement since that was never my point and I want to respect the gift of this Forum.

My "belly-aching" over the loss of the CSi and sticker-shock reaction to the MeiVici's introduction doesn't make me feel either oppotunistic or celebratory, no matter how positive a spin we put on those notions. Having spoken with a number of dedicated lugged steel craftsmen over the past few days there is acquiesence and understanding of Serotta's decision but there is certainly no glee or even the suggestion of "well, the better for us." I feel the same way personally even though there are plenty of great bikes in my basement and plenty to be had from great builders of steel (...may they live long and prosper). It's rather that the CSi and a company, an entity that is Ben and Co., both dedicated themselves to advancing lugged steel bicycles for decades and provided an example of masterful achievement. Sure, the CSi has been darn expensive for the past few years and under-sold but that has nothing to do with its _merits_. Merit often has so little to do with profit. So you will find no happy reaction to the end of Serotta's lugged steel from those who will benefit most from it.
That is, in itself, an interesting fact.

As for sticker-shocking carbon, I think Colnago really upped that ante a few years back with that last Anniversary bike (can't keep track...can you?), then DeRosa's King,and then the proliferation of Far Eastern examples each one _lowering_ costs in contrast to escalations made by those who boutique the concept of quality and other merits. But the advance of carbon, both in volume and in cost, hasn't hurt the small steel builders who are as busy as ever. There are, of course, zillions of used great steel bikes to be had for a pittance (I got one this past weekend for all of $200somedollars...a 60cm Corsa 0.1). Still, lots of folks don't have the time, the expertise and "education," nor will they simply have the exposure that was provided by having the CSi in the catalogue. The CSi was touted in recent years as the epitome of old-world craftsmanship, which we know is hype because the old world never made a bike half as nice. This month's double-whammy is something of a benchmark, no? Waterford is now the only production company of lugged steel bicycles left in America, the rest being much, much smaller, since the incoming affordable ham sandwich is really a boutique at non-boutique prices (much like Rivendell's Romulus or Rambouillet but those are very different sorts of bikes and they are made in Japan, bless Toyo the builder...). My prolix point is that Serotta _sets_ industry trends, it doesn't just follow them. And it is the trend setting that makes my belly ache, which has nothing to do with business or profits or anything but the merits of having a _great_ company no longer be at the forefront of a past "trend" that still has great merit. The trend-setting direction also gives me indigestion because it's way outside of my cycling interests. What's left for me to care about _but_ the past when I see the new Serotta?

dbrk

Ozz

08-17-2005, 07:51 AM

I know I'm going to get flamed for this but I think that SOME people are upset because they either no longer have the "best" Serotta or they now can't afford the "best" Serotta.
Those who "need" to have the best Serotta, will find a way to afford it...it might cost them a few diamonds to the missus, but they will find a way.

I can only imagine that the decision to produce this model represents a significant investment for the company. I hope it pays off, and doesn't blow up on them. This is my biggest fear. I imagine Ben has lost a lot of sleep over this decision. The biggest upside I see is that this will help the other models sell...for the consumer hoping for some of the Meivici DNA...

There are already a lot of fine all-carbon bikes out there, so the competition is tough. I can see the Meivici will only appealing to those who don't run the cost/benefit numbers before their purchase. They might just have a wait awhile longer before throwing on the ADA wheels.

There are certainly lots of folks with the $$ to afford this bike, but how many will actually pull the trigger? I have yet to read a post by anyone who says they can't wait to order one. Lots of posts about buying the lottery ticket. Maybe they should have rolled out the details when the tickets first went on sale?

I have no problem with the idea of Serotta producing an all carbon bike. I figure it was inevitable. But I am still trying to get my head around the price point. Not that it is high, but that it might be too high to succeed.

MartyE

08-17-2005, 08:03 AM

If I read the relase correctly the $7995 is for a limited early release
of the Meivici. Anyone care to guess what the frame/fork will
sell for once it isn't "limited early release"?
If it's 2k cheaper will that make a difference in what's on the lunch menu?
Is it more palatable at $5995?

Marty

dbrk

08-17-2005, 08:06 AM

I know I'm going to get flamed for this but I think that SOME people are upset because they either no longer have the "best" Serotta or they now can't afford the "best" Serotta.

I think JohnS would be more on the mark here ---and note I admire callow cynicism no matter how contumacious as a better starting point than any tedious compliance--- if there were more of the diehards _here_ eager to pony up for the MeiVici. The Ottrott brought sticker shock (and I, for one, immediately chimed in that it was too much for my tastes) but nothing like the reaction we have seen here to a proposed 8K frame ("Does that include the nearly $600 fork?," he said to his dealer.) JohnS proposes envy, always a deadly sin worth considering as a motivator and surely it will apply to some ---though honestly I think no one here precisely because these _are_ the sorts of good folks who ponied up for the Ottrott and _they_ are saying the price is...uhh...beyond their collective credulity. Let me put it this way: if Serotta can't sell this bike to "us", does it mean to sell many at all? Ottrotts are flying out the door but will MeiVici which is not some small escalation up the way, say, the Legend is to the Concours?

So I don't flame JohnS here nor take umbrage at Munson's feckless endorsement, I just find little merit in the notion.

dbrk

bostondrunk

08-17-2005, 08:12 AM

I'll bet my next case of beer that Serotta will sell every single one they can build, even at $7999.

Too Tall

08-17-2005, 08:20 AM

BD - No kidding
PecanSandy, despite my inability to read you can't fault me for asking. You said it best: "I simply think that the price of the new carbon bike is remarkably high relative to what is available in carbon and other bikes. I say that with no reservation, no matter how wonderful the new bike is. It is still only a bike."

Let's hit the Stage Deli and commiserate.

LegendRider

08-17-2005, 08:39 AM

As all bikes get more and more expensive (not just Serottas), I find myself torn between the fascinating technology, craftsmanship, etc. of these new super machines and fed-up/flabbergasted with the prices. In short, I'm trying to focus on the enjoyment of riding and less on the gear and toys. Also, I think I'd rather have a new mass-produced Tiawanese bike every couple of years than an $8,000 bike for a lifetime.

neverraced

08-17-2005, 08:39 AM

free?

"conferences, workshops, and preparing next year's curriculum (if you're doing the job correctly)...hardly."*

...worked full-time, and virtually had no vacations. Of course, I've met most of them in Mass. and Maine, while they were on vacation...

That's not to say there aren't good ones, like this doofus character.

(Preparing next year's curriculum = waiting to see what the textbook publishers send you in the mail.)

(workshops = half-days at school with "trainers" and free lunch)

(conferences = catch-all phrase used to describe any gathering of two or more people.)

JohnS

08-17-2005, 08:42 AM

The reason no one here wants one is because there hasn't been a test ride report yet. After the first rider writes things like "it carved corners with precision", "it didn't have that cf dead feel", "it practically pedaled itself (reeeaally important)", "it was so much faster than my Ottrott ST" and finally "it felt just like my CSi :) ", the small doubts will begin and the iwantone-itis will start, especially if Serotta lowers the price to "only" $6995 for the production model. (how's that for a run-on sentence??)

JohnS

08-17-2005, 08:46 AM

...worked full-time, and virtually had no vacations. Of course, I've met most of them in Mass. and Maine, while they were on vacation...

That's not to say there aren't good ones, like this doofus character.

(Preparing next year's curriculum = waiting to see what the textbook publishers send you in the mail.)

(workshops = half-days at school with "trainers" and free lunch)

(conferences = catch-all phrase used to describe any gathering of two or more people.)
When I was in Eire last year I heard a German teacher tell a joke. Q. What's the three best things about being a teacher? A. June, July, and August!
I remember back when a new book introduction would come and there'd be a student and teacher edition of the textbook and workbook. Now there are at least 20 different support materials like CD's testmasters, teacher annotated eds, etc, etc, ad nauseum.

flydhest

08-17-2005, 08:56 AM

dbrk,

I will bet you a dinner of saag paneer, channa masala, daal, and chappati that this puppy will still sell like hotcakes. Further, there will be those who say they think the price is outrageous who will be among the buyers. If either of us remembers, this time next year we should settle up.

I think your logic is impeccable, and my view is based essentially on no facts atall, nevertheless. my take on the human condition is that JohnS is right about a bunch of the moaning about the price and that there are plenty of people with sufficient excess cash, who think about the bicycling budget, perhaps, but not the per-bike budget.

The views expressed are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of rational people.

Johny

08-17-2005, 09:06 AM

...this puppy will still sell like hotcakes.

Agree. Ben is very good at selling "hotcakes" and we know some of us really like them...when they are "hot".

Sandy

08-17-2005, 09:34 AM

Sometimes hotcakes burn you. In this case, they probably won't, but time will tell.

Scalded Sandy

dbrk

08-17-2005, 09:42 AM

dbrk,

I will bet you a dinner of saag paneer, channa masala, daal, and chappati that this puppy will still sell like hotcakes...The views expressed are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of rational people.

You are undoubtedly correct, flydhest, as is JohnS, Munson, BD, TT, Johny, et.al. I am the naive one here. Please forgive this momentary lapse that caused me to think that people are rational. I know that I'm certainly not even half the time. I would be happy, nay delighted, to buy you and the Doctor a fine Indian dinner anytime, bets or expensive bicycles notwithstanding.

***
On a different note but also in this thread (somehow), I find it interesting the tone about teachers and the implication that they are privileged and worse, each and every comment from a non-teacher at the very least suggesting a kind of professional indolence. This is a decidedly American view and yet another reason I would gladly accept the offer to the Ecole in Paris if it were ever offered to me, an American academic (the French keep these for themselves, trust me). I'm not accusing individuals of anything but there is a seemingly pervasive attitude in America that educators are worth less than they are paid and certainly not more. I offer no defense or rebuttal though I find this endemic view just another indication of where we are going as a culture. I would like the cycling in France too, at least as much as these beautiful Bristol hills.

I doubt I will be getting any invitations from the Sorbonne or from Serotta any time soon, either for academic privileges or for test riding the MeiVici.

dbrk

bostondrunk

08-17-2005, 10:04 AM

...worked full-time, and virtually had no vacations. Of course, I've met most of them in Mass. and Maine, while they were on vacation...

That's not to say there aren't good ones, like this doofus character.

(Preparing next year's curriculum = waiting to see what the textbook publishers send you in the mail.)

(workshops = half-days at school with "trainers" and free lunch)

(conferences = catch-all phrase used to describe any gathering of two or more people.)

Stereotyping teachers is pretty lame.
I've seen first hand through one of my parents, and my current better half, the **** they have to put up with while raising your idiot kids, who you spend no time with and let play xbox all night long. Not to mention that grade school teachers are grossly under-paid for the service they provide to you. You try spending 9 months straight with 30 kids everyday and see if you think you deserve a 2 month break...

Now University profs....:)......I've had mixed experiences. I had some that were truly amazing, and then others that refused to take 30 seconds to talk to a student outside of class...

dirtdigger88

08-17-2005, 10:13 AM

much respect for teachers- they do a job I wouldnt want for far less that I would be willing to do it for- some of the best people I have met in my life were teachers-

again- respect

Jason

Tom

08-17-2005, 10:32 AM

I generalize right back. I point out to them that if their kids are idiots the single greatest factor is genetics.

Sandy

08-17-2005, 10:38 AM

Plus the fact that they weren't willing enough to pay enough money to attract and keep excellent teachers.

Still in the first grade,

STill Serotta Sandy

flydhest

08-17-2005, 10:41 AM

***
On a different note but also in this thread (somehow), I find it interesting the tone about teachers and the implication that they are privileged and worse, each and every comment from a non-teacher at the very least suggesting a kind of professional indolence. This is a decidedly American view and yet another reason I would gladly accept the offer to the Ecole in Paris if it were ever offered to me, an American academic (the French keep these for themselves, trust me). I'm not accusing individuals of anything but there is a seemingly pervasive attitude in America that educators are worth less than they are paid and certainly not more. I offer no defense or rebuttal though I find this endemic view just another indication of where we are going as a culture. I would like the cycling in France too, at least as much as these beautiful Bristol hills.

I doubt I will be getting any invitations from the Sorbonne or from Serotta any time soon, either for academic privileges or for test riding the MeiVici.

dbrk

As a former professor, I am clearly not unbiased, however, I think dbrk hit the nail on the proverbial head. The economist in me looks at the wages paid to those in the humanities at colleges and univesities (sidenote of little-known trivia, Philosophy professors are actually, on average, quite well remunerated--not quite to the level of economists, but well above English professors and about on par with biologists) and wonder why they do it. Love of learning and all that, sure, I know the drill, but I'm not sure I'd do it. When I went to get my PhD I was contemplating comparative literature (having been a French major as an undergraduate) but did economics in no small part because of the pay differential. I'm not "in it for the money" clearly, or else I'd be in the private sector, but I'm not in it for the poverty either. I believe (to some degree) in market-based information, and what I find appalling is how clearly we have evidence of the society's view of the value of broad-based, critical thinking and learning. Well, perhaps that doesn't quite get at what is undervalued, it is more a misapprehension of the ways in which those valuable skills are acquired. Seeing some of the research on it, I'm a firm believer that school children all the way through college should learn hard sciences as well as writing, critical thinking (philosophy), literature, art, and history.

In the end, I think it would create a much deeper demand for quality bicycles. Everybody would be more like dbrk (gratuitous sycophantry and bicycle content in one blow.)

Dr. Doofus

08-17-2005, 11:09 AM

fiamme red

08-17-2005, 11:34 AM

My father taught for 30 years in inner-city public schools. He enjoyed it when he started out, but as the years went by, the students began to have less and less respect for authority, and the job became much more stressful. It was now hard to maintain classroom discipline, let alone get the students to learn anything. By the time summer came along each year, he felt completely drained, and was in terrible need of a vacation.

Try teaching for a week in a school like the ones my father taught in, and then tell me that teachers are overpaid.

vaxn8r

08-17-2005, 11:46 AM

The same people that are bemoaning the sticker on the mediciosi (sp?) are the ones who complained about the Ottrott. Si? It'll take one or two on this forum to get one, report on it and the cascade will begin. Anyone who still wants an Ottrott ST? Hold on because there's going to be about 3 dozen "lifetime" Ottrotts, complete with oddball custom geometry, for sale in about 3-6 months.

BTW, I called this 2 years ago when the Ottrott was still new. The only reason Ben didn't offer full CF was because he couldn't do it at the time. Ti lugs allowed him to enter the CF marketplace where he came in way late to the game. Sorry but true.

bostondrunk

08-17-2005, 11:55 AM

Anyone who still wants an Ottrott ST? Hold on because there's going to be about 3 dozen "lifetime" Ottrotts, complete with oddball custom geometry, for sale in about 3-6 months.

lol, agree completely, especially the part about the wacked geometry! heh heh

shinomaster

08-17-2005, 11:57 AM

William

08-17-2005, 12:01 PM

Dude!!! We must have the same dad!!!
Twins! Reunited at last. Now you have your alibi Shino. :p

William :rolleyes: ;) :D

Roy E. Munson

08-17-2005, 12:03 PM

If you consider what a babysitter makes per hour, then consider how many students a teacher babysits in the run of a day, they are underpaid.

bcm119

08-17-2005, 12:08 PM

I went to a very small, super-progressive k-12 private school on the Vassar campus. My teachers, who we called by their first names and who treated us like equals, made sure we knew how to think critically. They planted the seed of curiosity and merit-based respect in all of us, they showed us how to form our own opinions and question group-think, and were paid a fraction of public school system teachers' salaries. I mean, their hearts were in this thing for life, and they really did make a difference. I still consider some of those teachers as my greatest mentors and most underpaid people I've ever known. If people like Doof can make a difference like that, even within The System, they have nothing but my respect regardless of their salary.

slowgoing

08-17-2005, 12:09 PM

I think I'm going to have to buy a CIII before that goes on the chopping block with no prior notice.

Climb01742

08-17-2005, 12:19 PM

my mom taught in public schools for over 30 years. during those summers, she earned two masters and was a dissertation away from a doctorate. over the years, as her disillusionment with public schools grew, she taught younger and younger grades, until finally, in her last ten years of teaching, taught first graders. she was paid too little. she worked too hard. but those last ten years, she couldn't have been happier.

1centaur

08-17-2005, 01:06 PM

The Ottrot appears to me to be essentially the same deal as the new bike. $5K, $8K, $10K, $20K...what's the difference? Per Jerk, any one of those prices is cheap for a world class race bike because it's actually (with sacrifice) attainable by people of somewhat middle class (U.S.) means, unlike an F1 car. The crucial difference is that there are 20 (let's say) world class bikes available for a fraction (numerator 1, denominator 2+) of the price of this new item, and the highly probable performance difference will be a percentage difference (plus or minus!) in the single digits. That's a good definition of overpriced.

A $2,500 Cannondale could make the same claim vs. my $5K+ bikes. That's fair in terms of racing performance, but not perceived comfort/joy/road feel, and so on. My high end carbon bikes provide a ride unlike and to my mind vastly (much more than 10%) above a generic 'Dale. As someone who regularly writes reviews on Bicycling.com touting perceived ride differences between high end bikes, who loves carbon fiber so much I just had to have the Calfee/Crumpton/Parlee triumverate for myself so I could know which one is best (watch for forthcoming comparison test), who has the budget to buy a new Serotta all carbon model without great distress, and who focuses on buying all things bicycling I might possibly enjoy to the exclusion of other discretionary categories, I would seem to be a natural candidate for the new model.

I have no interest whatsoever, due solely to price. Then again, I don't believe this bike was designed for me or the typical reader of this wonderful forum

Do I believe a small, late-to-the-game metal bike maker is going to do something radically wonderful with a material that lends itself to big budget R&D operations like Trek, Easton, Look, or the tube makers for the above-mentioned brands (and, I think, the Ottrot)? Do I think Craig Calfee, Nick Crumpton and Bob Parlee are going to smite their foreheads and say, "Why didn't I think of that?" Serotta has a public history of using high price as a marketing tool - there is no reason to be believe actual quality differences will drive price this time. The price umbrella may work for Serotta and competitors, but this particular price/performance trade-off appears designed for the people who bought Colnago Ferrari models - are there more than 100 such out there (note that would still be profitable for Serotta BTW)? Finally, carbon fiber is in an early evolutionary phase. Even in the unlikely event that Serotta comes up with a better mousetrap, there will be plenty of imitators soon enough, and at much lower price points. Better bikes will be out within 2 years. Unlike metal bikes, this is not a last chance at craftsmanship, just an early, crude, waypoint. I would love to be proved wrong on quality, I would love to see some quantum leap that makes the price seem vaguely justified, but I won't be betting my bike budget on it. The MeiVici and the Ottrot will remain on my "it's probably a nice bike" list, but won't make my garage/basement roster. Then again, this bike is not meant for us, so there's no reason to be upset. Maybe Robin Williams would like one?

JohnS

08-17-2005, 01:22 PM

I DON'T think teachers have it easy. I DON'T think they are overpaid. Here is where I have a problem with (some of) them. Follow with me here, kids... They graduated from high school and went to college. They earned their bachelor's degree. Many then continued on and earned at least one master's. All this time they were planning on being teachers. Obviously, they aren't stupid. So why during all this time didn't they look at what being a teacher really entailed? Large class sizes, inadequate supplies, disrespectful students. It's not like they were forced to be teachers or couldn't go into private business.
I remember one girl I knew who went into nursing. One night she was traumatized because one of her patients had died. What did she expect? She dealt with really sick people. I told her there was more to being a nurse than dating rich doctors. She gave me a stunned look like she had never thought of it that way.

flydhest

08-17-2005, 01:27 PM

I would love to see some quantum leap that makes the price seem vaguely justified, but I won't be betting my bike budget on it.

Given that a quantum is an infinitessimally small increment, chances are you'll get to see your wish come true.

That said, there are plenty of people on this forum with 5, 10, 15 bikes. What if instead of 10 bikes, they had 9? Take two of their $4K frames and get the new one for $8K. For people with $35K in bike frames and forks, how big of a hardship is it to be down one bike, but have the same amount of dough in the fleet?

bostondrunk

08-17-2005, 01:35 PM

So why during all this time didn't they look at what being a teacher really entailed? Large class sizes, inadequate supplies, disrespectful students. It's not like they were forced to be teachers or couldn't go into private business.
.

Thats a stupid question. The answer is that they for the most part did know what was in store, but they did it anyway because they like it. But just because they like it, doesn't mean its an easy job. How many people do you think like being spit on by a student (literally)?? Yet the world is still full of teachers....
Air traffic controllers work something like 1 week on 1 week off (or something to that effect). Think of teachers as the same way, except its their Summer they get to take off to de-stress.
I'm guessing you aren't a parent. When you are, you'll probably be a lot more appreciative of the free (yeah I know, we pay taxes) babysitting service that is provided for you for 12-14 years....

JohnS

08-17-2005, 01:38 PM

Tom

08-17-2005, 01:40 PM

...It's not like they were forced to be teachers or couldn't go into private business.
I remember one girl I knew who went into nursing. One night she was traumatized because one of her patients had died. What did she expect? She dealt with really sick people. I told her there was more to being a nurse than dating rich doctors. She gave me a stunned look like she had never thought of it that way.

Uh, maybe they wanted to make a difference and cheap gain wasn't the greater part of the equation? What some might be complaining about, legitimately I might add, is the attitude of the parents that tell the kid to treat the teacher like a chump because they didn't go for the easy money.

Uh, maybe she wanted to help people and she actually gave a **** so it bothered her when her patient died?

You know, some people actually do stuff because it might bring some good to some other people even though it's not easy to do.

Wow, I am suckered in easy. I just broke my 'give it a while before responding, dumbass' rule.

Like they say, the empty pot boils fastest. Rrrrrrr....

flydhest

08-17-2005, 01:41 PM

bd,
As it turns out, it's not a stupid question on JohnS's part. Lots of people do lament their plight as if they didn't know what was coming. As if they didn't know that teachers get paid poorly. That they like it and/or enjoy it and/or find it rewarding is clearly the reason they do it. John's point is that they have the choice and if they don't want to be a teacher, they don't have to. What the heck does his being a parent or not have to do with it? What does having a student spit on you have to do with the conversation at hand?

can't tell if you're a kettle or in a glass house, but your post was out of line.

Tom,

I just read your post after posting mine and I think what you wrote makes sense as well. Actually, I don't think it's fundamentally at odds with what John wrote. He was pointing out that there's a lot of information out there and people make choices. Foregoing the big bucks for public service is a choice (an extremely admirable one, in my view, which explains some of my choices in life) but in so doing, one oughtn't seem shocked (as is the case I've observed so often) that the pay ain't great.

djg

08-17-2005, 01:44 PM

the negative comments regarding the difficulty of doof's job are beneath the dignity of criticism

please look oofd up here

http://www.rock-hill.k12.sc.us/schools/high/rhhs/default.htm

you're welcome to see what he does

(no materials from publishers involved...the Ph.D. and his own trash-talk give him a rep to live up to)

we'll also ride the steamy roads of York and Chester counties :D

our society more generally. I go to the link and am unable to figure out who you are or what you do. I have a guess, but there seems to be more than one Ph.D. at your school, and I don't know your name, and most of the faculty entries--including that attached to my theory of your identity--lack obvious links to curriculum vitae (or other encapsulations of who you are and what you do). No doubt the information is all there for the clicking, but I'm too dense to click the right clicker. Or perhaps I'm too dense to click the left clicker--I just do not know. No doubt each and every child in, and AWOL from, your school knows, but I do not. That indicates a problem, but not THE problem.

THE problem, of course, is that I cannot even begin to identify what it is that I do not know about you and your very valuable life's work until I have scanned all the pictures ... er, you know ... in search of cute chicks.

I am very sorry. Very much ashamed, and very sorry.

bostondrunk

08-17-2005, 01:44 PM

bd,
As it turns out, it's not a stupid question on JohnS's part. Lots of people do lament their plight as if they didn't know what was coming. As if they didn't know that teachers get paid poorly. That they like it and/or enjoy it and/or find it rewarding is clearly the reason they do it. John's point is that they have the choice and if they don't want to be a teacher, they don't have to. What the heck does his being a parent or not have to do with it? What does having a student spit on you have to do with the conversation at hand?

can't tell if you're a kettle or in a glass house, but your post was out of line.

My points were mainly in regard to the original comments by another poster:

"(Preparing next year's curriculum = waiting to see what the textbook publishers send you in the mail.)
(workshops = half-days at school with "trainers" and free lunch)
(conferences = catch-all phrase used to describe any gathering of two or more people.)"

implying that teachers have it so easy. If everyone who didn't love their job quit, then there wouldn't be a whole lot of people working.
What does being a parent have to do with it? Well there is another stupid question....It has a lot to do with it, because as a parent you would better recognize the service being provided by teachers. Duh, is that hard to understand? Yes teachers are underpaid, etc., YES, they realize it. Instead of saying "Hey, then quit", why not say "Thanks".....

flydhest

08-17-2005, 01:48 PM

My points were mainly in regard to the original comments by another poster:

"(Preparing next year's curriculum = waiting to see what the textbook publishers send you in the mail.)
(workshops = half-days at school with "trainers" and free lunch)
(conferences = catch-all phrase used to describe any gathering of two or more people.)"

implying that teachers have it so easy. If everyone who didn't love their job quit, then there wouldn't be a whole lot of people working.
What does being a parent have to do with it? Well there is another stupid question....It has a lot to do with it, because as a parent you would better recognize the service being provided by teachers. Duh, is that hard to understand?

your points quoted JohnS's post, not the earlier posters, so the implication of stupidity might well be reserved for yourself.

John wasn't implying teachers have it easy. Parents do not, as a general rule, have a better understanding of the service provided by teachers. You know who does??? Economists like me who spend a lot of time and see the data on how they are a benefit to the students, the community, and the long-run economic health of the economy. Moreover, just because one isn't a parent, it does not follow that one cannot see the benefit that parents receive. "Duh" seems like an appropriate expression for your vocabulary. You have the critical thinking skills of a . . . well, give me some time to think of a small enough word so you'll understand it. I, I have it, a git.

Ahneida Ride

08-17-2005, 01:50 PM

8K is way outa my league. and even it was not ... I would not even
consider it.

In 1940, 8K was a small fortune. One could purchase a house.

But then what the heck, it's all worthless Fenron Preserve Notes anyway.

bostondrunk

08-17-2005, 01:53 PM

your points quoted JohnS's post, not the earlier posters, so the implication of stupidity might well be reserved for yourself.

John wasn't implying teachers have it easy. Parents do not, as a general rule, have a better understanding of the service provided by teachers. You know who does??? Economists like me who spend a lot of time and see the data on how they are a benefit to the students, the community, and the long-run economic health of the economy. Moreover, just because one isn't a parent, it does not follow that one cannot see the benefit that parents receive. "Duh" seems like an appropriate expression for your vocabulary. You have the critical thinking skills of a . . . well, give me some time to think of a small enough word so you'll understand it. I, I have it, a git.

You're a swellllllllllllllllll guy.... Why can't you drop the economist ego and have a simple understanding of what teachers do. Forget about the economic benefits.....geeeez....(hows that word for you). Teachers in grade schools babysit your kids (and teach them). My only point is that people should be more appreciative of them. OK, now go ahead and respond with more nonesense about my vocabulary...duh....

Dekonick

08-17-2005, 01:56 PM

No.
Think: RB-1, Masi GC, or, yes, CSi or Atlanta back when they were not too much more. Yup, I'd bet a ham sandwich on it.

dbrk

RB-1. I miss Bridgestone.

csb

08-17-2005, 01:57 PM

I told her there was more to being a nurse than dating rich doctors.

be careful next time you're looking to get your prostate massaged

JohnS

08-17-2005, 02:00 PM

look out next time you want your prostate massaged
Just had it done two weeks ago, along with my PSA test. The doc was the best kind... he had a skinny finger and both his hands weren't on my shoulders! :banana:

shinomaster

08-17-2005, 02:00 PM

what does any of this have to do with tuna?

bostondrunk

08-17-2005, 02:04 PM

what does any of this have to do with tuna?

you should have more respect for the tuna!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

flydhest

08-17-2005, 02:04 PM

You're an idiot. Why can't you drop the economist ego and have a simple understanding of what teachers do. Forget about the economic benefits.....geeeez....(hows that word for you). Teachers in grade schools babysit your kids (and teach them). My only point is that people should be more appreciative of them. OK, now go ahead and respond with more nonesense about my vocabulary...duh....

let's see, no need to respond with nonsense about your vocabulary . . . you illustrate my point far more effectively than I ever could. As it turns out, I have a simple understand of what teachers do as well as a more nuanced understanding of what they do. Those awake in class would have noticed that I was arguing in favor of greater respect for teachers.

As far as my being an idiot goes, I reckon you're entitled to an opinion, but you'd be the first person to think that. Jerk, ***, arrogant bastard . . . those are all things that lots of other consider me, but no one has ever thought me an idiot before. Since you clearly have lots of experience with this, let me ask you. I assumed I would care if someone called me an idiot, but I don't. If it happed to me for years and years, as must be the case with you, will I eventually give a damn?

shinomaster

08-17-2005, 02:07 PM

you should have more respect for the tuna!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Buddy ...let me just say that I always treat my tuna right! :banana:

Dekonick

08-17-2005, 02:10 PM

Sir,

If you have to ask... you can't affort it

bostondrunk

08-17-2005, 02:13 PM

let's see, no need to respond with nonsense about your vocabulary . . . you illustrate my point far more effectively than I ever could. As it turns out, I have a simple understand of what teachers do as well as a more nuanced understanding of what they do. Those awake in class would have noticed that I was arguing in favor of greater respect for teachers.

As far as my being an idiot goes, I reckon you're entitled to an opinion, but you'd be the first person to think that. Jerk, ***, arrogant bastard . . . those are all things that lots of other consider me, but no one has ever thought me an idiot before. Since you clearly have lots of experience with this, let me ask you. I assumed I would care if someone called me an idiot, but I don't. If it happed to me for years and years, as must be the case with you, will I eventually give a damn?

I think you have a strange view. Is that better than idiot? Most parents who should have a "simple understanding" of what teachers do, don't. But maybe I shouldn't be so hard on them, because clearly we can't all be genius economists like yourself, and have an in depth nuanced understanding of how teachers effect the economy, and thus the political situation in the middle east, and the price of tuna.........
Oh, yer a swellllllll guy...............

Dekonick

08-17-2005, 02:30 PM

Thats a stupid question. The answer is that they for the most part did know what was in store, but they did it anyway because they like it. But just because they like it, doesn't mean its an easy job. How many people do you think like being spit on by a student (literally)?? Yet the world is still full of teachers....
Air traffic controllers work something like 1 week on 1 week off (or something to that effect). Think of teachers as the same way, except its their Summer they get to take off to de-stress.
I'm guessing you aren't a parent. When you are, you'll probably be a lot more appreciative of the free (yeah I know, we pay taxes) babysitting service that is provided for you for 12-14 years....

I can hardly believe where this thread is headed. How can anyone equate work schedule with worth? Take a look at high paying jobs and their value to society. How does a CEO earn 10M+ when his/her company is headed down the toilet? What is that person's work schedule? What work do they actually do during that time? What do you consider to be work?

A teacher should be the most revered, compensated, and valued of any person. The work they do will decide to a certain extent what happens to our wonderful society - It won't take long for our empire to crumble when our future leaders (now children in school being taught by those 'overpaid, underworked teachers...) Can't find China on a world map - much less know China's history...

$50k a year is a pittance. You may as well flick a farthing at their feet...

bostondrunk

08-17-2005, 02:38 PM

JohnS

08-17-2005, 02:41 PM

I can hardly believe where this thread is headed. How can anyone equate work schedule with worth? Take a look at high paying jobs and their value to society. How does a CEO earn 10M+ when his/her company is headed down the toilet? What is that person's work schedule? What work do they actually do during that time? What do you consider to be work?

A teacher should be the most revered, compensated, and valued of any person. The work they do will decide to a certain extent what happens to our wonderful society - It won't take long for our empire to crumble when our future leaders (now children in school being taught by those 'overpaid, underworked teachers...) Can't find China on a world map - much less know China's history...

$50k a year is a pittance. You may as well flick a farthing at their feet...
You're missing the point. Fly and I agree that teachers are underpaid and perform a public service. All we're saying is that they went into it with their eyes open. Teachers' salaries are public information. This all started when a teacher commented on his $51,000 salary. I've never seen anyone else post here what they made. He is well enough educated that if it bothers him, he can change careers. If he likes it fine, accept the good with the bad. You're a fireman, right? I don't see regular features in the newspapers about how underpaid and overworked you are (but you are). You accept that running into burning, dilapidated buildings is part of your job. Teachers should accept theirs, too.

Dr. Doofus

08-17-2005, 02:41 PM

teacher pay is best seen in this context:

in any industry, the creators and producers of knowledge are the most valued human commodities.

the distributors of knowledge are compensated based on the perceived value and complexity of such knowledge, and the difficulty in relacing a "knowledge distributor " at a given level (i.e., middle manager, high school teacher, pre school teacher, cubicle drone).

traditionally, research professors are seen as the producers of knowledge

traditionally, secondary, middle, and primary teachers are knowledge distributors of descending value

after switching from college to HS in 2001, doof thinks this traditional view is bunk. there are HS teachers who are sharper than professors, HS teachers who are cloddish pedants, professsors who are sharp, professors who are cloddish pedants...like any other field, there are the campioni, the gregari, and the poor slobs who are just slogging along getting a paycheck (the majority of working adults).

its not high paying. doof never thought it was. it is flipping hard if you do it correctly...like any other adult career worth having

wherezdafrigginporkbikedoofwantstodigthepignowmrsd oofevensaiditsokifitainttoomuch!!!!!!

scienceguy08

08-17-2005, 02:49 PM

First, let me say thank you to all of you for your comments. As a sixth-grade science teacher in South Dakota, I have heard all the sides to each argument made in this thread. A bit of background to let you know my own situation. South Dakota ranks 51st out of the 50 states and the District of Columbia. We're also a very conservative state and we HATE paying taxes. I've a MA and am also a dissertation away from my PhD.

Although, it was my decision to leave a higher paying position in management to become a teacher; it does not mean that I don't complain about my salary. Farmers may be the only people I know that complain more about their jobs than teachers. Don't let the complaining fool you though - I love my job. Working with kids IS rewarding. The relationships I've made in the 15 years of teaching are invaluable.

Furthermore I have time off during the summer to do what I choose. I happen to work as a software engineer at a USGS facility. The money I earn there was enough to buy my CSi. It will be the only Sereotta I'm likely to afford. If you want to know my salary, it gets published every August in the Sioux Falls Argus Leader. I wish I made 50k.

Thanks again for all the great comments about teachers. In return, you should all know that I respect every one of you. Even those with which I disagree.

bostondrunk

08-17-2005, 02:56 PM

dirtdigger88

08-17-2005, 02:57 PM

stupid me- I just cut grass for a living

Jason

JohnS

08-17-2005, 02:59 PM

I think most are missing that my arguements were mostly aimed at this guys comments.
JohnS and neverraced are two entirely separate people, as I'm sure he wants to keep it. Therefore, when you quote me, and call me by name, I guess an "idiot" ;) might think that you were referring to me.

scienceguy08

08-17-2005, 03:04 PM

stupid me- I just cut grass for a living

Jason

needs more grass cutters and less lawyers (attempt at changing the subject). :beer:

JohnS

08-17-2005, 03:07 PM

needs more grass cutters and less lawyers (attempt at changing the subject). :beer:
No, no, no. We need more grass smokers. The world would be a more peaceful place. :beer:

dirtdigger88

08-17-2005, 03:09 PM

needs more grass cutters and less lawyers (attempt at changing the subject). :beer:

NO WAY!!! Every swinging d*ck with a pick up and a lawn mower thinks they are going to put me out of business- HA!!!! :p SUCKERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Jason

fiamme red

08-17-2005, 03:09 PM

needs more grass cutters and less lawyers (attempt at changing the subject). :beer:Speaking of lawyers, where has dnovo been all this time?

bostondrunk

08-17-2005, 03:11 PM

JohnS and neverraced are two entirely separate people, as I'm sure he wants to keep it. Therefore, when you quote me, and call me by name, I guess an "idiot" ;) might think that you were referring to me.

you're an idiot...

;)

Roy E. Munson

08-17-2005, 03:23 PM

NO WAY!!! Every swinging d*ck with a pick up and a lawn mower thinks they are going to put me out of business- HA!!!! SUCKERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

All the illegal immigrants will beat them to it.

dirtdigger88

08-17-2005, 03:26 PM

All the illegal immigrants will beat them to it.

thats why I use Work Visas

Jason

Dekonick

08-17-2005, 03:36 PM

No, no, no. We need more grass smokers. The world would be a more peaceful place. :beer:

:beer:

what we need is more fermented grass (barley) drinkers...

Speaking of which I have none cold in the fridge :crap: and I still have to mow the lawn.

Cadence230

08-17-2005, 03:53 PM

:beer:

what we need is more fermented grass (barley) drinkers...

Speaking of which I have none cold in the fridge :crap: and I still have to mow the lawn.
I go for the Garden of Life stuff and Kombucha. :banana:

Sandy

08-17-2005, 03:56 PM

It seems as if some of my threads eventually deteriorate. I originally started out with a delicious tuna sandwich. Then I went to a delicious rib eye sandwich. I added fries. Then I added a pickle and potato salad. I even gave you a choice rib eye.

But now, the rib eye is missing. The fries are greasy, and the potato salad has bad mayo. The bread has gotten very hard and stale.

Perhaps Serotta James should end this thread. It is going to get very moldy soon.

Idiot Sandy

Smiley

08-17-2005, 04:07 PM

Sandy , I never thought about this idea that the originator of a Thread can shut it down . Lets see if James will allow us to do something like this .

dirtdigger88

08-17-2005, 04:10 PM

no way---- its like an atomic reaction-

once it starts there is no way to stop it

Jason

cyclesberuff

08-17-2005, 04:44 PM

I don't mind tuna sandwiches but I prefer "Club Specials" with a little bit of campy and SP on on it

Ti Designs

08-17-2005, 05:41 PM

Yeh, that's right. There is an $8000 frame/fork 'cause you asked for it. Don't remember asking for it? Just think back to when the speculation over the new frame was on the top of this board. The question of full carbon came up, and the response was only if Serotta could keep it all in-house and under their own quality control. Like I said, you asked for it.

I can put a stamp on a letter and send it 2000 miles away - no problem. I can also say "I'm not using the post office, I want to keep this delivery in-house" and deliver the letter myself. It may cost 1000 times more, but I'll have delivered it myself. I don't need a fleet of trucks, electonic sorting, internet tracing - these things all cost way too much! I'll save all kinds of money by just delivering the letter myself. Or not...

When the dust settles and the price is looked at, one thing becomes clear - it's way more expensive to make that bike at Serotta. The in-house R&D is paid for by the purchase of a few hundred frames, overseas the same expense is spread over tens of thousends of frames. It may sell on the fact that it's a carbon frame that's hand made in the states. There's a guy who purchases titanium golf tees from me, I charge $50 per, and he still orders them a dozen at a time. He could have them made in china for $5 each, but he wants 'em to be american made by an american artist. I don't get it, but for that kinda price I'll crank 'em out all day long.

1centaur

08-17-2005, 06:24 PM

Unless Serotta makes its own carbon on the new frame, which I doubt, then keeping the quality in house at Serotta puts them on a par (to keep the golf theme going) with Calfee and Parlee at half the price (spec the tubes from a great U.S. supplier and hand craft the results into a frame). I don't think the American made/quality control idea justifies the price. Spreading Serial# 1 R&D around might, though it worked out differently for Calfee and Parlee because they did not have a reputation to trade on. Nevertheless, they now do have an undisputed reputation in CF that Serotta should not be able to match until a few years have passed, so an $8k starting price sounds like a gamble on their name alone and/or an indirect pricing umbrella move to attract perhaps the Nag/Ferrari collector buyer with some special distinguishing features before settling down a lot closer to the competition for the full production run. That would be a heck of a name to give up for a limited run bike though.

Sandy

08-17-2005, 08:05 PM

There are only a few custom carbon fiber producers of bicycles. Assuming that the future of bicycles is headed more towards carbon fiber, and that Serotta has a superior reputation, perhaps Serotta will sell alot of these critters. That is,of course, assuming that the bike will be fully custom.

The Serotta Forum undoubtedly has the most significant core of Serotta enthusiasts. I may be foolish in saying this, but I think the number of Serotta Forum members that purchase said bike this year will be very small.

Not So Small,

Pea Brain Sandy

Sandy

08-17-2005, 08:07 PM

I will remain silent for now on the new bike.

Silent Serotta Sandy

I think that those at Serotta must be saying- "At last! Praise the Lord."

ergott

08-17-2005, 08:14 PM

:eek: :eek: Yeh, that's right. There is an $8000 frame/fork 'cause you asked for it. Don't remember asking for it? Just think back to when the speculation over the new frame was on the top of this board. The question of full carbon came up, and the response was only if Serotta could keep it all in-house and under their own quality control. Like I said, you asked for it.

I can put a stamp on a letter and send it 2000 miles away - no problem. I can also say "I'm not using the post office, I want to keep this delivery in-house" and deliver the letter myself. It may cost 1000 times more, but I'll have delivered it myself. I don't need a fleet of trucks, electonic sorting, internet tracing - these things all cost way too much! I'll save all kinds of money by just delivering the letter myself. Or not...

When the dust settles and the price is looked at, one thing becomes clear - it's way more expensive to make that bike at Serotta. The in-house R&D is paid for by the purchase of a few hundred frames, overseas the same expense is spread over tens of thousends of frames. It may sell on the fact that it's a carbon frame that's hand made in the states. There's a guy who purchases titanium golf tees from me, I charge $50 per, and he still orders them a dozen at a time. He could have them made in china for $5 each, but he wants 'em to be american made by an american artist. I don't get it, but for that kinda price I'll crank 'em out all day long.

Titanium golf tees for $50 :eek: :eek: Ben, you're short changing yourself by asking only $8000 :banana: :banana: .

Sandy

08-17-2005, 08:21 PM

At that price, the whole golf course would be worth 8,000 billion dollars!

Sandy

ergott

08-17-2005, 08:27 PM

At that price, the whole golf course would be worth 8,000 billion dollars!

Sandy
That would be 8 trillion dollars to us more sofistikated and edukated folk ;)

Dr. Doofus

08-17-2005, 09:34 PM

our society more generally. I go to the link and am unable to figure out who you are or what you do. I have a guess, but there seems to be more than one Ph.D. at your school, and I don't know your name, and most of the faculty entries--including that attached to my theory of your identity--lack obvious links to curriculum vitae (or other encapsulations of who you are and what you do). No doubt the information is all there for the clicking, but I'm too dense to click the right clicker. Or perhaps I'm too dense to click the left clicker--I just do not know. No doubt each and every child in, and AWOL from, your school knows, but I do not. That indicates a problem, but not THE problem.

THE problem, of course, is that I cannot even begin to identify what it is that I do not know about you and your very valuable life's work until I have scanned all the pictures ... er, you know ... in search of cute chicks.

I am very sorry. Very much ashamed, and very sorry.

1) food has noted many times that he teaches literature

2) its a public school website in a district with 43% free and reduced lunch. vitas? not that high-zoot of a webshack. If you look for the Dr. who looks like a fit racer, do a google search and find some scholarship...its unfortunately still out there....

3) the link was provided not so that one could instantly see what doof does...you would have to come sit in room A206 for a week...which is, in doof's cryptic way, the point.

4) the main cute chick is the german teacher (who has posted here as Mrs. Doofus)