another builder is seeing 'red'

[Climb01742]

from IF's blog:

http://ifbikesblog.blogspot.com/2012/02/red-tower-party-like-its-2011-or-not.html

you can see the cold-hard business reality of what sram is doing, but what sucks, IMO, is for sram to try to pimp the big boys and the little dudes at the same time. just be honest, sram. the big bike manufacturers are your true friends and true bread and butter. fine, cool. but then don't try to lock up smaller, cooler builders with a sorta-bait-and-switch dealio. as gary says, the craftsman builders really don't matter to sram. again, fine, cool, that's business. just don't lead them on.

[jr59]

Sram = ???

Campy is always faster!

[fourflys]

well, just like the other thread, there is one glaring sentence that stands out in my mind...

"We always allocated hot new product to customers with the most influence, not necessarily those with the most cash"

it seems IF is trying to say they have more influence than the "big guys"... let's think about the size of audience Trek gets and the size of audience ALL of NAHBS gets... I have a pretty good idea of how has more influence just by the number of units on the street...

just like the last thread, I think it would be great if SRAM ponied up the new stuff but I think they have a good point about fairness... if they give the new stuff to RS, IF, and Vanilla let's say... is it fair to not give it to DeSalvo or Erickson? I have no idea if this would be accurate, just an example...

I LOVE the small builders and will likely be using one when I move down from Alaska in 3 yrs, but if they think they have more influence or power than a Trek, Specialized, or Giant... I just don't see it, sorry...

[bargainguy]

Not a SRAM person, but after reading this and e-Ritchie's take, I'm even less of one.

Don

[Kontact]

I'm a little surprised that IF had chosen to equip all five of their show bikes with identical groups - especially since when they bought them there was no mention of them being new Red, just the same Red that had been out awhile.

FSA, Miche, Tissot, Microshift, Phil Wood, Mavic, Stronglight, Cane Creek, Feather, Zero Gravity, Rotor, Sugino, etc. all offer some nice alternative components to Campy or Shimano, and ones that better match the idea of the limited production custom bike.

If I was one of these NAHBS people, I would strongly consider not using SRAM at all for all the reasons stated - why showcase old news?

[54ny77]

hated red when i had it, dislike it even more based on how this has played out.

shifts about as loud and clunky as 4.10 straight cut gears.

i want smooth like a 7 speed dsg slushbox, thank you.

[oldguy00]

hated red when i had it, dislike it even more based on how this has played out.

shifts about as loud and clunky as 4.10 straight cut gears.

i want smooth like a 7 speed dsg slushbox, thank you.

+1

Most folks I know who tried it felt the same. Back to 7900 for me.

[tsarpepe]

What I don't understand is why IF are so hooked on SRAM. Because it's American? Just dump this sheet and never look back.

[97CSI]

What I don't understand is why IF are so hooked on SRAM. Because it's American? Just dump this sheet and never look back.SRAM is hardly American. Made in China.

And, if I recall correctly, e-Ritchie got pissed at Campy back when and went with SRAM. As stated above, with his RS cachet, he is still really small potatoes (rather than old potatoe ;) ) compared to Trek, Giant, etc.

[54ny77]

Yeah but Sachs and IF are like an elegant gratin, whereas the others....eh, bland & plain dehydrated potato buds. Which you you rather eat? :banana:

SRAM is hardly American. Made in China.

And, if I recall correctly, e-Ritchie got pissed at Campy back when and went with SRAM. As stated above, with his RS cachet, he is still really small potatoes (rather than old potatoe ;) ) compared to Trek, Giant, etc.

[97CSI]

Yes.......... unquestionably, we are all connaisseurs of fine bicycles posting here, but SRAM makes their living off the blue-collar buyer.

[oldpotatoe]

well, just like the other thread, there is one glaring sentence that stands out in my mind...

"We always allocated hot new product to customers with the most influence, not necessarily those with the most cash"

it seems IF is trying to say they have more influence than the "big guys"... let's think about the size of audience Trek gets and the size of audience ALL of NAHBS gets... I have a pretty good idea of how has more influence just by the number of units on the street...

just like the last thread, I think it would be great if SRAM ponied up the new stuff but I think they have a good point about fairness... if they give the new stuff to RS, IF, and Vanilla let's say... is it fair to not give it to DeSalvo or Erickson? I have no idea if this would be accurate, just an example...

I LOVE the small builders and will likely be using one when I move down from Alaska in 3 yrs, but if they think they have more influence or power than a Trek, Specialized, or Giant... I just don't see it, sorry...

Yep, sram couldn't spare say 10-15 red groups out of the 15,000-20,000 they will 'sell' to trekspecializedgiant..I can see it would really put a bind into their attempt at world wide dominance.

It's not about numbers or influence or power..it's about perception. This forum and the 3 others I am on have a very dim view of sram...VERY similiar to the cutthroat, take no prisoner, arrogant practices of special-ed.

sram are being pricks, and is in keeping with my dealings with those in their ivory towers...thanks, no sram for me or my shop. No demo bikes with it, no spare parts, shimano works just fine(better).

The outside sram guy wonders why I feel this way...he's needs to spend some time in the trenches. When sram isn't a price/great deal, only reason for their OE presence right now, they will disappear like suntour did.

AMF

[Kontact]

It seems very fashionable on this site to dislike SRAM, and love Campy. Other places you'll see very different opinions.

A lot of people have hated Shimano for decades, and they have certainly manipulated the bike industry far more than any other single entity, even having killed Suntour in the process.


SRAM is definitely an American company - US engineers and owners who make their products overseas - just like everybody else. But there has never been a US component group making company, so it isn't exactly a loss to US workers.


It sounds like IF and RS genuinely like SRAM for who they are and their products, but are disappointed in what they've done today - not in general. But that's a hard thing to understand if you're unable to get past a loud index click.

[54ny77]

Go SRAM go!!

This had to have been written by a bunch of product guys in the middle of a coke-fueled stripper party featuring Tony Robbins videos playing on an endless loop.

http://www.sram.com/company/about

[snip...]

"Narrow minded yet forward thinking."

[snip...]

Now that we have achieved total drive train nirvana, we will continue to seek and deploy technological and engineering advancements, as we compulsively refine and redefine the pinnacle of the ultimate ride."

[jpw]

Sram...scram.

DA is good - "... the heritage of Campagnolo and the precision of Shimano."

[fourflys]

It seems very fashionable on this site to dislike SRAM, and love Campy. Other places you'll see very different opinions.

<snip>

It sounds like IF and RS genuinely like SRAM for who they are and their products, but are disappointed in what they've done today - not in general. But that's a hard thing to understand if you're unable to get past a loud index click.

this is what I was talking about in my post on the last thread about people hating success...

everyone is allowed their opinion of course... I've been working in a shop since September and haven't seen 1 SRAM bike come back for any issues... and that's with a 100% satisfaction guarantee... our riders probably don't ride the # of miles that others ride, but still...

I have a bike with first gen Rival that was raced pretty hard from what I understand before I bought it and it shifts just like my new Rival bike... which BTW shifts just as well as my Chorus 11sp bike did... different, but just as well...

I've given up arguing about the different groupsets... I don't know the reasons SRAM has decided not to outfit the NAHBS people with the 2012 stuff, but I'm pretty they have a reason that is sound to them... something must outweigh the possible PR the new stuff would receive...

[professerr]

"It sucks to be told that you don't matter." -- G at IF

Seems that's the heart of the matter here for both RS and IF, which is entirely understandable.

Sucks that the business world is not like Lake Wobegon "Where all the children are above average." Some businesses are less economically significant than others.

[Ahneida Ride]

One should try to honor their commitments.

[fourflys]

One should try to honor their commitments.

who didn't honor their commitments?

[RacerJRP]

I am a big supporter of Sram. I have most of what they make spread out over 4 bikes. I like the ergonomics and the shift feel significantly better than Shimano and I cant stand the way that Campy feels. Of course this is atmo. The current stuff from all three manufacturers works just fine and I have to go through this many times every week as I have worked at an LBS for the past 4 years.

It sounds like these NAHBS builders will be delivered exactly what they ordered though I must say the timing of the 2012 Red launch is a bummer for them.

Unfortunately in the business world everyone cannot always be happy, but as long as Sram is comfortable with their business decision than that is really all there is to this...again, the timing is a bummer but it is what it is...

For me, whether or not Sachs', or IF's show bikes have new red or old red or Apex doesnt matter. I want to see gorgeous framesets!

[Peter P.]

SRAM could have used NAHBS as an opportunity to advance advertise their new product, but failed to see the benefit.

If SRAM were awake they could have told NAHBS vendors "Hey; we'll give you X new gruppos if you'll display them on your show frames and hang this banner announcing the product in your booths/on your frames/whatever" sort of a co-branded advertising.

I'm not a vicious hater of SRAM as a result of their dissing NAHBS, but I certainly won't forget the lack of integrity their representatives displayed toward their customers, the framebuilders.

Let's hope SRAM can come up with a way to redeem themselves.

[Kontact]

SRAM could have used NAHBS as an opportunity to advance advertise their new product, but failed to see the benefit.

If SRAM were awake they could have told NAHBS vendors "Hey; we'll give you X new gruppos if you'll display them on your show frames and hang this banner announcing the product in your booths/on your frames/whatever" sort of a co-branded advertising.

I'm not a vicious hater of SRAM as a result of their dissing NAHBS, but I certainly won't forget the lack of integrity their representatives displayed toward their customers, the framebuilders.

Let's hope SRAM can come up with a way to redeem themselves.
I'm sure SRAM would do just that, if they had enough groups to go around. Are you saying they have the groups, but don't want to sell them to the NAHBS people?

[David Kirk]

I don't know - to me it feels not so much like they didn't want 'us' to have the new stuff but that they instead wanted to control its release and wanted that release to be on the mass market wunderbikes. I'd say that the builders at NAHBS really care about how their bikes are presented to the public and they sweat all the little details knowing that the impression they give will mean sales, or lack thereof for the next year. I don't know why Sram would be any different. I'm sure they want the bikes that their gear is shown on, for one of the first times in public, to be just what they want it to be and don't want to give the wrong impression to the public (who will buy these groups by the many thousands) by putting the new stuff on bikes that they have no control over. So it seems to me that rather than try and pick and choose which NAHBS would bikes are 'cool enough' that they will stay away from the show altogether.

I've been in this niche for more than a few years now and one thing I can say for sure is that we are small - very small. We tend to think of ourselves as big in places like this but the reality of it is that we are indeed very small. Companies like Serotta are the 800 pound gorillas in this gig but in the bigger world they are just not big enough to worry about - numbers and quantities talk. If all of the builders at NAHBS used Red it would hardly make a blip on their sales chart. I can think of a few bike shops that will move more kits than most of our niche put together moving hundreds of units in a season. Sram is chasing bigger fish and frankly I can't blame them.

I'm also not sure I agree that anyone in our niche has any real influence outside of this very niche. Big fish - little pond as they say...........but anyway you cut it it's still a small pond. The idea that someone would go online, see a NAHBS bike with Red on it, and rush to their shop and buy a trek with Red seems naive to me. They'll see a Desalvo and want a Desalvo and it seems that's about the extent of it..........and from where I sit that's a good thing and all that matters for the show.

So I don't see how their decision is really a bad business decision for them.

------------------------------------------------------------------

All that said - the way Sram handled the deal is amateurish at the absolute best. If they were upfront in advance with who would be able to buy what, and when, from the get-go then it would have just disappointed a few builders who wanted the new stuff to show. But rather they seemed to try to have both sides of this and came out looking silly at best, and dishonest at worst. Not good. So while I in no way condone how they handled this mess I do understand where they were trying to end up - they just chose a ****ty and unproductive path to get there.

Ironic that they didn't want to take away from the value of the show but instead of talking about what cool bikes we'll see there we are instead talking about Red. I guess in an odd/ironic way they were right.

Dave

[fourflys]

the lack of integrity their representatives displayed toward their customers, the framebuilders.


if you mean the assumption some have made about when the groups were offered, I have issue with your statment...

one of the NAHBS builders at VSalon posted that when he got the phone call with the offer, he actually asked if it would be the new stuff and was told no... he declined... so to assault the representatives integrity is pretty low...

[Climb01742]

(snipped) they seemed to try to have both sides of this and came out looking silly at best, and dishonest at worst.

that's the rub for me.

[charliedid]

I am tired of all the crying over this...stuff happens and people get upset. I am not sure that throwing a hissy fit on your blog is going to do anything to help the situation.

RS has been building his bikes for 30 + years the same way. Why should he care if he has the "newest" Red? It makes ZERO difference at the show and it makes ZERO difference to the guys who want to buy these frames. Why not just hang some 30 year old parts on those frames? :D

And why does Richard even go to this show if his list is 9 years out for a bike and the bike he made 3 years ago is the same as it will be this year?

Too much ego being thrown around atmo

[David Kirk]

that's the rub for me.

Me too.

FWIW - I got a call from Sram a few months back offering me a good deal on stuff for the show and I asked if it was going to be the new stuff. They said 'no', so I said 'no thanks' and I'll be showing bikes with other brands of groups on my bikes at NAHBS.

dave

[Joachim]

I as a customer do not even look at the parts. Put some NOS stuff on there mixed in with modern components, its all good. I only care about the frame. Parts I can get anywhere. Might still be a dumba$$ move by SRAM but in the end its not the components that make the bike. Now wheels maybe...

[EricEstlund]

They said 'no', so I said 'no thanks'

Same here.

Ultimately I am bringing customer bikes anyway, but when presented the option between waiting for 2012 Red and buying Ultegra Di2 now my customer didn't even pause before choosing to go with the Ultegra.

[krhea]

I don't know - to me it feels not so much like they didn't want 'us' to have the new stuff but that they instead wanted to control its release and wanted that release to be on the mass market wunderbikes. I'd say that the builders at NAHBS really care about how their bikes are presented to the public and they sweat all the little details knowing that the impression they give will mean sales, or lack thereof for the next year. I don't know why Sram would be any different. I'm sure they want the bikes that their gear is shown on, for one of the first times in public, to be just what they want it to be and don't want to give the wrong impression to the public (who will buy these groups by the many thousands) by putting the new stuff on bikes that they have no control over. So it seems to me that rather than try and pick and choose which NAHBS would bikes are 'cool enough' that they will stay away from the show altogether.

I've been in this niche for more than a few years now and one thing I can say for sure is that we are small - very small. We tend to think of ourselves as big in places like this but the reality of it is that we are indeed very small. Companies like Serotta are the 800 pound gorillas in this gig but in the bigger world they are just not big enough to worry about - numbers and quantities talk. If all of the builders at NAHBS used Red it would hardly make a blip on their sales chart. I can think of a few bike shops that will move more kits than most of our niche put together moving hundreds of units in a season. Sram is chasing bigger fish and frankly I can't blame them.

I'm also not sure I agree that anyone in our niche has any real influence outside of this very niche. Big fish - little pond as they say...........but anyway you cut it it's still a small pond. The idea that someone would go online, see a NAHBS bike with Red on it, and rush to their shop and buy a trek with Red seems naive to me. They'll see a Desalvo and want a Desalvo and it seems that's about the extent of it..........and from where I sit that's a good thing and all that matters for the show.

So I don't see how their decision is really a bad business decision for them.

------------------------------------------------------------------

All that said - the way Sram handled the deal is amateurish at the absolute best. If they were upfront in advance with who would be able to buy what, and when, from the get-go then it would have just disappointed a few builders who wanted the new stuff to show. But rather they seemed to try to have both sides of this and came out looking silly at best, and dishonest at worst. Not good. So while I in no way condone how they handled this mess I do understand where they were trying to end up - they just chose a ****ty and unproductive path to get there.

Ironic that they didn't want to take away from the value of the show but instead of talking about what cool bikes we'll see there we are instead talking about Red. I guess in an odd/ironic way they were right.

Dave


As my 14yr old son and his friends would say..."word".

[rustychain]

I am at a loss for why IF would showcase ANY group to the exclusion of all others. That is IMO poor marketing as well.
They sell FRAMES I'm told :beer:

[BumbleBeeDave]

Me too.

FWIW - I got a call from Sram a few months back offering me a good deal on stuff for the show and I asked if it was going to be the new stuff. They said 'no', so I said 'no thanks' and I'll be showing bikes with other brands of groups on my bikes at NAHBS.

dave

When I first read Richard's blog this was my immediate reaction. If somebody came to me and offered me a deal like that I would immediately assume they were trying to unload some current year overstock and question them accordingly. Then I would have done a bit of research--here, for instance--to see who even remembers what groups were on bikes at last year's show. I know I don't remember, nor did I care when I went to the show . . .

BBD

[swg]

[QUOTE=BumbleBeeDave]When I first read Richard's blog this was my immediate reaction. If somebody came to me and offered me a deal like that I would immediately assume they were trying to unload some current year overstock and question them accordingly. Then I would have done a bit of research--here, for instance--to see who even remembers what groups were on bikes at last year's show. I know I don't remember, nor did I care when I went to the show . . .

BBD[

I don't remember what groups were on bikes at last year's show nor did I care. There was the lone Dornbox which had SRAM Force. Only reason I remember is because I was so impressed with Christopher's work I went back and oogled. In fact I liked Chris and his work so much that I have one of his frames on order.

[SteveFrench]

waa waa waa boo hoo

[bobswire]

I guess I'm surprised by the builders of these beautiful hand made frames and their preference for using Sram when by and large those of us who own hand made frames prefer to adorn them with Campagnolo or Shimano.
I think this site can attest to that fact.

[Earl Gray]

Heck, I'm impressed that someone at SRAM even know's who any of these builders are. I think Richard said he moves about 50-60 groups a year. I assume that is on completed bikes.

Damn near every LBS in the country moves at least that many.

If SRAM was going to suck up to anyone in this group I would think it would be the IF's or other custom brands that are sold via bike shops. I have no clue why anyone would think they care even a little bit about someone selling 1 bike a week tops.

Little customer's with big expectations make for some of the least profitable customers. Often times not worth having.

If I were SRAM I maybe asking RS to remove me as a sponsor. Not that it matters either way.

[mistermo]

I think some of you are missing the point. Richie is an advocate for SRAM. He doesn't race bikes with Campy or Shimano. Unlike many of the other builders who have posted here, he is loyal to SRAM and uses nothing else.

Richie's mistake, if you believe he made one, was assuming that SRAMs loyalty to him was reciprocal. His products are premium products, SRAM knows this, and uses his product in their advertising. He expected to receive their premium product.

It's understandable that there would be a feeling of betrayal that, despite his loyalty to them, they choose to snub him in favor of the mass marketed brands.

I get it and agree with him. It's bad business to snub your most loyal customers and those who advocate for your product.

[Earl Gray]

I guess I'm surprised by the builders of these beautiful hand made frames and their preference for using Sram when by and large those of us who own hand made frames prefer to adorn them with Campagnolo or Shimano.
I think this site can attest to that fact.

That's a valid point. They all selling to us in spite of using SRAM.

[AgilisMerlin]

so which builders will dump sram. Who is going to take the leap out of the circle?

curious

[fourflys]

I guess I'm surprised by the builders of these beautiful hand made frames and their preference for using Sram when by and large those of us who own hand made frames prefer to adorn them with Campagnolo or Shimano.
I think this site can attest to that fact.


meh... I think people just like to pile on SRAM personally... I used to have a bit of hate for SRAM... until I actually rode it past one test ride... I can understand if someone doesn't like the doubletap or wants alloy Athena to hand on that type of bike... but honestly, if you have a bada$$ handmade road bike like a Gaulzetti, I can't imagine a better looking, more serious piece of gear than some Red... for me anyway...

[Earl Gray]

....Big fish - little pond as they say...........


Meaning no disrespect, but you guys might not even qualify as a pond.

I very, very big, Kick ASS museum quality fish tank that keeps only the finest fish in the world, but a tank none the less.

[mistermo]

My last post on this....

While the handbuilt bike market may be miniscule, the influence is large. I don't work in a bike shop, nor do I work in the bike industry.

I bet all of us here sell LOTS of bikes indirectly. How many of us here are sought out as authorities by our friends, coworkers or family members who want to buy a bike? I bet I've sold close to ten bikes this year by helping people identify what they want/need.

In business, referrals are the best advertising. I risk sounding self-important, but those of us in this miniscule fish tank have disproportionate opinions and influence.

[Uncle Jam's Army]

What bothers me here is that SRAM appears to have been less than candid when offering these framebuilders the "deal" for Red groupsets. All framebuilders should have been told that this "deal" did not include the new SRAM Red group that everyone knew would be released this year, but rather the old Red group. Apparently, some framebuilders had the forethought to ask and were told that the deal did not include the new Red, while other framebuilders did not inquire.

[bobswire]

Sram who? :rolleyes:
http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=94685&highlight=campagnolo+poll

[choke]

I guess I'm surprised by the builders of these beautiful hand made frames and their preference for using Sram when by and large those of us who own hand made frames prefer to adorn them with Campagnolo or Shimano.
I think this site can attest to that fact.It came as a surprise to me as well. meh... I think people just like to pile on SRAM personally... I used to have a bit of hate for SRAM... until I actually rode it past one test ride... I've never forgiven them for killing the Aris freewheel.

[fourflys]

I've never forgiven them for killing the Aris freewheel.

I have no idea what that is... maybe that's why I don't see an issue with SRAM...

[fourflys]

What bothers me here is that SRAM appears to have been less than candid when offering these framebuilders the "deal" for Red groupsets. All framebuilders should have been told that this "deal" did not include the new SRAM Red group that everyone knew would be released this year, but rather the old Red group. Apparently, some framebuilders had the forethought to ask and were told that the deal did not include the new Red, while other framebuilders did not inquire.

I guess it's how you look at it... since the new group hadn't been introduced or a date given when it would be introduced, I see no reason why they would think it would be any different than what was currently available... sure there were leaks about a new group coming out, but that means nothing when it can take forever to release something (electronic Campy anyone?)... plus if you think there is a new group coming out, that's even more reason to ask...

[fogrider]

My last post on this....

While the handbuilt bike market may be miniscule, the influence is large. I don't work in a bike shop, nor do I work in the bike industry.

I bet all of us here sell LOTS of bikes indirectly. How many of us here are sought out as authorities by our friends, coworkers or family members who want to buy a bike? I bet I've sold close to ten bikes this year by helping people identify what they want/need.

In business, referrals are the best advertising. I risk sounding self-important, but those of us in this miniscule fish tank have disproportionate opinions and influence.
I had a friend call and ask, "there's a bike here I like, there is one built with shimano and one with campy; which one should I get?" My response...hands down, go with campy! I work in an architectural office and of the bikes in the office, 3 campy, 2 shimano, 1 sram.

[choke]

I have no idea what that is... maybe that's why I don't see an issue with SRAM...Sachs produced the Aris freewheel (similar to a cassette) and it was IMO the best freewheel made....especially if you're a Campy guy and don't want to use a Shimano part. SRAM purchased Sachs and within a year or so ceased production of the Aris.

I still have bikes which use a freewheel....

[Kontact]

My last post on this....

While the handbuilt bike market may be miniscule, the influence is large. I don't work in a bike shop, nor do I work in the bike industry.

I bet all of us here sell LOTS of bikes indirectly. How many of us here are sought out as authorities by our friends, coworkers or family members who want to buy a bike? I bet I've sold close to ten bikes this year by helping people identify what they want/need.

In business, referrals are the best advertising. I risk sounding self-important, but those of us in this miniscule fish tank have disproportionate opinions and influence.
I think this is Serotta forum myopia.

The other day a gentleman came into the bike shop. I overheard him mention Kirk and Bedford - so I asked him if he posts on Serotta forum. Sure enough.


The average point of view on this forum is also a pond, or fish tank. This is a more informed group - about some less known brands. But that POV is still just a product of this pro-Campy, pro-small builder, pro-across the hall brand influence. Out in the rest of the world people are buying frames and parts that just don't come up here, and haven't even heard of Bedford. But they have heard of Kish, who won at NAHBS last year, but never comes up around here.

I think we're kidding ourselves about this influence stuff. I love the custom stuff, but most of those names are great for producing blank stares.



As for the rest of this thread, SRAM wasn't being deceitful. RS and IF aren't peeved because they were tricked, they are peeved because they decided to use a 3 year old group on their bikes, and the press releases of its replacement is going to make it look like a 3 year old group on their bikes.

[fuzzalow]

Doesn't all this whinging and drama about getting the screws over buying last years parts boil down to one simple thing? Did the person receiving the offer of parts ask the simple question "Will I be getting the newest parts or not?".

One or two builders had the business sense to ask, a few did not. Some whom did not ask and later were to receive older parts then took to the blogs to cry about their own business mistake. Pile on to SRAM ensues.

It would be proper IMO that these guys just take their lumps quietly rather than proceeding as like self preoccupied drama queens. Of course, I read about the misadventure without any sense of schadenfreude but can't fathom the need to display one's own mistake.

[harryblack]

i tried to read the other thread for weirdness value, amusement, education but came away more confused than ever.

that ** ANYONE ** could get worked up over SRAM anything seems utterly daft and for these builders to get all worked up over someone they let into their beds for...

... what reason, precisely? a few meaningless grams at price point x?

if folks actually like SRAM road groups, fine, but the jilted lover schtick seems silly.

signed,

rides campy, respects shimano

from IF's blog:

http://ifbikesblog.blogspot.com/2012/02/red-tower-party-like-its-2011-or-not.html

you can see the cold-hard business reality of what sram is doing, but what sucks, IMO, is for sram to try to pimp the big boys and the little dudes at the same time. just be honest, sram. the big bike manufacturers are your true friends and true bread and butter. fine, cool. but then don't try to lock up smaller, cooler builders with a sorta-bait-and-switch dealio. as gary says, the craftsman builders really don't matter to sram. again, fine, cool, that's business. just don't lead them on.

[dhoff]

I am tired of all the crying over this...stuff happens and people get upset. I am not sure that throwing a hissy fit on your blog is going to do anything to help the situation.

Too much ego being thrown around atmo


+10!!!

[Sandy]

Initially, when reading Richard's blog/letter, my reaction was so what?....Why even care one way or another?...Why such an obsession and inordinate time spent on something relatively trivial? The 2011 Sram versus the 2012? NAHBS is basically for display/appreciation/interest (and potential future sales) of frames/frame sets produced by a select few, who possess remarkable abilities and exceptional talent. A place to meet friends and others with similar interests in cycling and meet some of those special builders. No one will really care whether 2011 or 2012 Sram components are used. As the IF blog indicated, the paramount focus is frames (per SRAM), not components. In addition, compared to what is really important in life, such concern appeared, initially, almost to be silly.

But I realized after thinking more carefully that Richard (in my opinion)and the others are "hard wired" to produce total excellence, a display of the best that can be offered at the time....total excellence in the presentation, and that total excellence is not simply limited to the frame or frame set...It is all that one sees..and the "old" Sram detracts from the total package. I would not see it that way, but I think Richard and others do. That perspective needs to be understood.

Richard and others builders tend to be very loyal and caring about people, and would like that to be reciprocated, and apparently he and others did not feel it was. How many units would it really take for SRAM to supply Richard, IF, and others at the NAHBS? Certainly, not many. It just did not seem fair..especially to someone like Richard who possesses loyalty to others. On the other hand, Richard and others were offered extremely good prices, so one might say that why should they expect 2012 product that was very limited, at best, at the time? Was it the responsibility of the individual builder to ask precisely what SRAM was selling them, as the 2011/2012 was in transition? Clearly from IF's very well written blog, there was a business decision made by SRAM to use the limited early production elsewhere.....perhaps as a function of the limited exposure/sales potential of the builders at the NAHBS. Perhaps that business decision was not "fair", as that places loyalty lower that potential monetary considerations. But that is business.

I see it both ways....but think the best for Richard and IF and others to do is not to obsess about it...move on, and think about how they will use SRAM in the future. The actual 2011 SRAM Red (Black Edition) impact on the actual presentation at the show will be very small. Certainly the SRAM Red 2012 would be a positive, but only in a very small way.



Sandy

[beeatnik]

This debate reminds me of the documentary The September Issue and The Devil Wears Prada. "We need this season's Lagerfeld silk butt wipe for our world historical (for this season) September issue or it will be ruined." Thousands of tastemakers will take notice. Orders from major retailers like Neiman Marcus will be affected...blah, blah, blah. It's funny when boys play this BS game.

To paraphrase Sachs, the group is not the bike. And if you can afford the 10 large bikes these dudes show, the last thing you look at is the group. I mean, 9 out of 10 bikes I see at NAHBS have crap wheels and yet I still lust for the frame.

[Earl Gray]

My last post on this....

While the handbuilt bike market may be miniscule, the influence is large. I don't work in a bike shop, nor do I work in the bike industry.

I bet all of us here sell LOTS of bikes indirectly. How many of us here are sought out as authorities by our friends, coworkers or family members who want to buy a bike? I bet I've sold close to ten bikes this year by helping people identify what they want/need.

In business, referrals are the best advertising. I enjoy being overly self-important, those of us in this miniscule fish tank think we have disproportionate opinions and influence.

I fixed it for you.

[Rueda Tropical]

When you are building the ultimate custom machines you obsess over every detail. If you are not hard wired to obsess over every detail of your product you probably would not be at the top in the custom bike biz.

I can understand how knowing you are going to the biggest showcase for your work with anything less then the latest, greatest and most ultissimo of every detail and component could really mess with your desire for perfection.

If you planned and saved all year for the ultimate bike. You had the latest and greatest of every component specced and when you finally went to pick up your bike there was one on the floor with a newer, slicker gruppo it would certainly put a wet blanket on the experience. Even though there would be no rational reason to feel the bike you specced was any less good now in your lizard brain you got second best, it's just not the alpha, top of the heap, ultimate.

[palincss]

What bothers me here is that SRAM appears to have been less than candid when offering these framebuilders the "deal" for Red groupsets. All framebuilders should have been told that this "deal" did not include the new SRAM Red group that everyone knew would be released this year, but rather the old Red group. Apparently, some framebuilders had the forethought to ask and were told that the deal did not include the new Red, while other framebuilders did not inquire.

That speaks of naivete on the part of the builders, rather than duplicity on the part of SRAM, doesn't it?

[tsarpepe]

When you are building the ultimate custom machines you obsess over every detail. If you are not hard wired to obsess over every detail of your product you probably would not be at the top in the custom bike biz.

I can understand how knowing you are going to the biggest showcase for your work with anything less then the latest, greatest and most ultissimo of every detail and component could really mess with your desire for perfection.


I do believe this to be true, but then it makes even less sense to obsess over the new SRAM. The 2012 Red are visually very bold, not to say garish. If you've tuned your frameset to perfection aesthetically, putting this stuff on will only destroy the aesthetics. (I am assuming that--since builders did not know about the Red 2012 release, they couldn't have had time to design a frameset around the new SRAM bling.)

[oldpotatoe]

who didn't honor their commitments?

You wrote-"I've given up arguing about the different groupsets..."

I guess you haven't.

If you and your bike shop and your 5 months in a bike shop like the $ of sram and the OE presence, and all, groovy but those of us that have had to deal with the folks at sram, well, no thanks. It's about more than cheap and light.

[19wisconsin64]

don't understand. what's all this hating on sram? really?!?!?!

oh, i get it. let's just have one component maker, campy. yeah, that makes sense. and let's have that maker be real, real expensive for the everyday rider.

oh, and even if a new component manufacturer comes along, and then continually improves its parts, let's trash them more. oh, yeah, that makes even more sense.

life's too short to waste energy on the hating, folks. sram's not perfect, but i applaud and welcome innovation.....it keeps the other (more entrenched) manufacturing companies on their toes!

[oldpotatoe]

meh... I think people just like to pile on SRAM personally... I used to have a bit of hate for SRAM... until I actually rode it past one test ride... I can understand if someone doesn't like the doubletap or wants alloy Athena to hand on that type of bike... but honestly, if you have a bada$$ handmade road bike like a Gaulzetti, I can't imagine a better looking, more serious piece of gear than some Red... for me anyway...

Why do ya suppose that is? People like to pile on sram?

Ya know I have worked on many sram bikes, have warrantied about 2 dozen levers, lotsa bearings, rear ders and if I had a bada$$ handmade bike, sram would be a distant, distant third when it came to choosing a group. IMHO, of course.

'Serious piece of gear'?

So serious, Garmin chooses to buy Di2 rather than get sram for free...yep..

I see a fair amount of pros and their pro bikes ere in the republic, some with sram....officially, they are 'great bikes', anything for the sponsor.

If your bike shop(which is it BTW?) likes the $ generated by sram, well good for the bike shop. Too many go under these days.

What does the owner ride?

[Tom]

Late to the party - just like the parts that SRAM is shipping. Note that Sachs mentions that the parts are being shipped tardy - last year's parts are being shipped tardy. All they had to do was go to stock, pull some boxes and get them to Sachs before the announcement... he puts his bikes together and takes advantage of the shipping arrangements he had set up and saves a few bucks on shipping... then the new stuff comes out and Sachs has really nothing to say. Instead, SRAM is sending him old stuff late after the new stuff is shown. If I were running SRAM, that's not how I'd treat a company that moves product for me... but it's clear that it's only the big movers they're interested in.

Nothin' personal, it's only bidness.

[Bob Loblaw]

One of the things I often hear from people who ride SRAM is how friendly and responsive their customer service is. I agree that they are very reachable and very responsive. They ship replacement parts quickly and with little fuss.

I have no idea how the customer service at Campagnolo or Shimano are.

Going forward, riders who have enough disposable income to ride a custom bike will probably not hear good things about Red from their frame builders. I think this NAHBS debacle is going to blow up in SRAM's face.

BL

[dhoff]

All of our self importance not withstanding, we don't mean much to the bicycle market as a whole. The percentage of people buying high end bikes who come to the readers of this page for advice could not possibly amount to 0.1%. In the scheme of things, to a company like SRAM, we mean ****.

Yeah, it might be nice to take care of us. And yup, small private teams have a right to be offended, but really, we will buy what we buy because we like the product. I would gladly buy another Serotta from an asshole rather than a trekalized from a gentleman. I like bikes and bike parts. I like doing business with people I like, but personalities don't keep me from the good stuff. If I liked SRAM, I would be riding it. That's all

If we were what SRAM saw as their market, they would be taking care of us. But we are the fringe. We are in some respect the "Early Adopters". But SRAM is way past needing us.

-d

[bobswire]

I think this is Serotta forum myopia.

The other day a gentleman came into the bike shop. I overheard him mention Kirk and Bedford - so I asked him if he posts on Serotta forum. Sure enough.


The average point of view on this forum is also a pond, or fish tank. This is a more informed group - about some less known brands. But that POV is still just a product of this pro-Campy, pro-small builder, pro-across the hall brand influence. Out in the rest of the world people are buying frames and parts that just don't come up here, and haven't even heard of Bedford. But they have heard of Kish, who won at NAHBS last year, but never comes up around here.

I think we're kidding ourselves about this influence stuff. I love the custom stuff, but most of those names are great for producing blank stares.



As for the rest of this thread, SRAM wasn't being deceitful. RS and IF aren't peeved because they were tricked, they are peeved because they decided to use a 3 year old group on their bikes, and the press releases of its replacement is going to make it look like a 3 year old group on their bikes.

Well I must admit that's a pretty good summation.

[mistermo]

Why do ya suppose that is? People like to pile on sram?

Ya know I have worked on many sram bikes, have warrantied about 2 dozen levers, lotsa bearings, rear ders and if I had a bada$$ handmade bike, sram would be a distant, distant third when it came to choosing a group. IMHO, of course.

'Serious piece of gear'?

So serious, Garmin chooses to buy Di2 rather than get sram for free...yep..

I see a fair amount of pros and their pro bikes ere in the republic, some with sram....officially, they are 'great bikes', anything for the sponsor.

If your bike shop(which is it BTW?) likes the $ generated by sram, well good for the bike shop. Too many go under these days.

What does the owner ride?

I have another interesting data point along these lines. I work for an Italian company unrelated to cycling. Our Italian CEO came from Bain Consulting (the one that likes to "fire" people). In that position, he previously performed the strategic consulting for Campagnolo. He told me there's a reverence within Campy for Shimano's engineering abilities. Campy recognizes the innovation that Shimano brings and has an admiration for their product, in spite of being a competitor. No such admiration for SRAM exists and I'm told the 'within Campy' view of SRAM is that they have developed a business model designed to create the simplest, cheapest product, then market it as a premium product. SRAM's marketing prowess is their strength (along with low cost manufacturing), not their engineering and innovation. I'm told that those within Campy respect the engineering that goes into Shimano, but laugh at the lack of it that goes into SRAM.

Just another data point, ignore it if you wish.

[soulspinner]

:beer: What bothers me here is that SRAM appears to have been less than candid when offering these framebuilders the "deal" for Red groupsets. All framebuilders should have been told that this "deal" did not include the new SRAM Red group that everyone knew would be released this year, but rather the old Red group. Apparently, some framebuilders had the forethought to ask and were told that the deal did not include the new Red, while other framebuilders did not inquire.

There it is!

[Bob Ross]

I think this is Serotta forum myopia.

The other day a gentleman came into the bike shop. I overheard him mention Kirk and Bedford - so I asked him if he posts on Serotta forum. Sure enough.


The average point of view on this forum is also a pond, or fish tank. This is a more informed group - about some less known brands. But that POV is still just a product of this pro-Campy, pro-small builder, pro-across the hall brand influence.


I get what you're saying, and can't argue per se... but I also know of at least two people who placed orders with Carl Strong based (so they say) on seeing pictures of my Strong on internet forums, and the brief ensuing online conversations we had about my bike and the ordering process.

Now, two bikes isn't even a drop in the bucket (even the bucket that you use to rinse the sponge that wipes down the sides of that fishtank), but for a guy who builds less than 100 bikes a year, I'm guessing that kind of word-of-mouth referral is absolute gold. I'm betting the NAHBS gang is extremely grateful for "forum myopia", and I would even bet many of them can point to significant increases in orders as a direct result of activity on this forum and That Other One.

Still doesn't impact SRAMs bottom line, which I suspect was your point, but it definitely impacts Bedfords', Zank's, Sachs', Kirk's, etc.

[oldpotatoe]

I have another interesting data point along these lines. I work for an Italian company unrelated to cycling. Our CEO came from Bain Consulting (the one that likes to "fire" people) and in that position, he previously performed the strategic consulting for Campagnolo. He told me there's a reverence within Campy for Shimano's engineering abilities. Campy recognizes the innovation that Shimano brings and has an admiration for their product, in spite of being a competitor. No such admiration for SRAM exists and I'm told the 'within Campy' view of SRAM is that they have developed a business model designed to create the simplest, cheapest product, then market it as a premium product. SRAM's marketing prowess is their strength, not their engineering and innovation. I'm told that those within Campy respect the engineering that goes into Shimano, but laugh at the lack of it that goes into SRAM.

Just another data point, ignore it if you wish.

I think fourflys will think it's BS, but I have heard this from some at Campagnolo, NA. There is also references and implications of this in Campagnolo's articles in Bicycling and Rouleur.

I think shimano is pleased Campagnolo introduced electronic and Campagnolo is pleased shimano is going to 11s. It justifies and strengthens each company's position.

And I agree. Kinda like selling a really expensive Timex watch.

[sailorboy]

I haven't read all the posts in this thread although I suspect it could've probably ended after what Dave Kirk said about them handling it poorly etc...good thing for me is that it isn't even a philosophical debate since I'm kind of 'been there done that' WRT using their stuff and wouldn't get it again. Just don't like how it works and some of the finishes seemed less refined for what you pay for the stuff not to mention some durability questions.

Campy or shimano for me, thank you.

[Charles M]

I think this is Serotta forum myopia.

The other day a gentleman came into the bike shop. I overheard him mention Kirk and Bedford - so I asked him if he posts on Serotta forum. Sure enough.


The average point of view on this forum is also a pond, or fish tank. This is a more informed group - about some less known brands. But that POV is still just a product of this pro-Campy, pro-small builder, pro-across the hall brand influence. Out in the rest of the world people are buying frames and parts that just don't come up here, and haven't even heard of Bedford. But they have heard of Kish, who won at NAHBS last year, but never comes up around here.

I think we're kidding ourselves about this influence stuff. I love the custom stuff, but most of those names are great for producing blank stares.



As for the rest of this thread, SRAM wasn't being deceitful. RS and IF aren't peeved because they were tricked, they are peeved because they decided to use a 3 year old group on their bikes, and the press releases of its replacement is going to make it look like a 3 year old group on their bikes.




Like I posted in the last thread...

Could it again be a case of SRAM simply releasing the new Red because it's now ready?


It got ignored the last time too, but SRAM were very simply not set on a launch date when they gave people a very good deal...

[oldpotatoe]

could it again be a case of SRAM simply releasing the new Red because it's now ready?

Did sram know they were 'close' to releasing a new Red, about the time the builders were talking to sram, gettting ready for NAHMBS?

[fourflys]

You wrote-"I've given up arguing about the different groupsets..."

I guess you haven't.

If you and your bike shop and your 5 months in a bike shop like the $ of sram and the OE presence, and all, groovy but those of us that have had to deal with the folks at sram, well, no thanks. It's about more than cheap and light.

to each their own... I can just relate my own experience, limited as it may be... of course I also go on the experience of our mechanic, who is one of the best in the city... BTW-I know not and could care less about the $ of SRAM since I have nothing to do with that...

as far as personally liking SRAM... it feels good to me and works just as well as Campy and Shimano (had both), as blasphemous as that may be to you...

[rugbysecondrow]

Whether you are a big fish, little fish, in an ocean or a frick'n baggie with water, you want to believe in the product you are purchasing. Frames, components, shoes, clothes etc. Does Campy function better or worse than Shimano? I don't know, but I know which one I believe in more.

Regardless of the reason, SRAM planted seeds of doubt in the builders, which is creating a trickle down. What is the adage about poor customer service, one unhappy customer will tell ten? Anyway, there will be a trickle down here. Folks have pride in what they ride, I don't give a **** if I ride my Bedford and nobody notices, but I am proud of it and I believe in the guy who built it. I am sure SRAM rides just fine, but would I be proud to ride it if this is how they are treating their partners? Likely not. It doesn't matter if I have all the facts or not, seeds of doubt planted, choose another option.

[echelon_john]

As a part-time frame and wheelbuilder who works with a variety of different suppliers, I have to say that the difference in customer service and amount of the suppliers' interest in MY satisfaction and success varies widely.

I'm a small fish by any account, but companies like Velocity (whom I sing the praises of regularly) continually go the extra mile to make sure I have what I need. If they're doing this for me, I can only assume that they're taking as good or better care of their large accounts. Working with them, I feel informed, taken care of in case of warranty issues, and generally like I'm receiving great service.

Another distributor I work with is the opposite. It's like pulling teeth to get them to answer simple questions about part availability, and when they do it's often one-word email replies. I work with them because they have a lot of what I need, but don't feel like they could care less about having me as a customer.

Business is business, but the human side--and especially the customer service end of things--is still important. SRAM could have gone the extra mile to generate goodwill, but apparently isn't. To me, this seems like a situation that happened needlessly, and a missed opportunity to be the hero and generate goodwill and good press by Sram.

[fourflys]

I have another interesting data point along these lines. I work for an Italian company unrelated to cycling. Our Italian CEO came from Bain Consulting (the one that likes to "fire" people). In that position, he previously performed the strategic consulting for Campagnolo. He told me there's a reverence within Campy for Shimano's engineering abilities. Campy recognizes the innovation that Shimano brings and has an admiration for their product, in spite of being a competitor. No such admiration for SRAM exists and I'm told the 'within Campy' view of SRAM is that they have developed a business model designed to create the simplest, cheapest product, then market it as a premium product. SRAM's marketing prowess is their strength (along with low cost manufacturing), not their engineering and innovation. I'm told that those within Campy respect the engineering that goes into Shimano, but laugh at the lack of it that goes into SRAM.

Just another data point, ignore it if you wish.

since I was called out for this above, I guess I'll reply to it...

I'm glad Campy and Shimano respect each other... I do find it kind of odd Campy "laughs at the lack if engineering that goes into SRAM" when they designed a completely new way to shift... I'm sure some engineering had to go into that... I couldn't care less if Campy respects SRAM or if any shops sells SRAM or not, really I couldn't...

[oldpotatoe]

to each their own... I can just relate my own experience, limited as it may be... of course I also go on the experience of our mechanic, who is one of the best in the city... BTW-I know not and could care less about the $ of SRAM since I have nothing to do with that...

as far as personally liking SRAM... it feels good to me and works just as well as Campy and Shimano (had both), as blasphemous as that may be to you...

As a sales guy, and I'll bet your shop is the type with standard brands, most with OE of sram, you actually do care about the $, since selling these things means you get a paycheck generated by the bike shop's sales.

You can ride whatever you wish and sell any way you wish, I'm sure with the sales managers input. BUT as an owner, I have the freedom to choose to sell what I want. Lots I don't sell because, IMHO, it's a poor product(Ksyriums are in this catagory-does your shop sells a lot of them) or I cannot support the manufacturer or distributor, or both.

I could sell anything I want, but I don't sell something, 'just cuz I can'.

I had first gen. Force on a demo bike 4 years ago. With shimano and Campagnolo equipped bicycles. Riders who didn't know which they wanted, we encouraged them to ride all 3. I have never sold a bike with sram.
OE is where there is a bunch of sram cuz...sram has deep pockets from a multi #million investment and makes manufacturers of bicycles offers they can't refuse. Call up a product manager at one of the big bike makers you sell and ask how they come to the 'what to spec the bike with' decisions.

Mostly it's about $ and availability.

Your wrench, the best in SanDiego, obviously has figured out how to make the FD work the best he can. He probably knows the tricks to make the ceramic 'stuff' last longer than the steel items costing 1/4 as much(BB), probably has figured out the warranty process at sram(call, ask for a new anything, for any reason, get it with a addressed bag). Knows how to make Ksyrium rear hubs stop screetching and how to make 6700/7900 shift well.

But his salary is paid by selling the bikes on the floor, you know, the ones with sram....nobody working in a Chevy dealer badmouths Chevy, but the independent down the street, that works on Chevy's....can.

Once again, what shop?

[Ahneida Ride]

The small time Frame builder takes great prides in what they show
at NAHBS. (Just look at some of the displays and the lengths these
small fries go to make their exhibition area look attractive.)

Hence their desire to hang the "best" components.

[tsarpepe]

How often have you researched a bike on the internet and landed in a thread from this or other bike forum? With me it happens all the time. How many people research on the internet before they buy cycles? Dunno, but my feeling is: they are fast approaching 100%. The web has changed the metrics for how you measure a small pond. A small pond we may be, but the waves are bigger than you think.

[William]

Does that make me a rogue wave?






William ;)

[fourflys]

As a sales guy, and I'll bet your shop is the type with standard brands, most with OE of sram, you actually do care about the $, since selling these things means you get a paycheck generated by the bike shop's sales.

You can ride whatever you wish and sell any way you wish, I'm sure with the sales managers input. BUT as an owner, I have the freedom to choose to sell what I want. Lots I don't sell because, IMHO, it's a poor product(Ksyriums are in this catagory-does your shop sells a lot of them) or I cannot support the manufacturer or distributor, or both.

I could sell anything I want, but I don't sell something, 'just cuz I can'.

I had first gen. Force on a demo bike 4 years ago. With shimano and Campagnolo equipped bicycles. Riders who didn't know which they wanted, we encouraged them to ride all 3. I have never sold a bike with sram.
OE is where there is a bunch of sram cuz...sram has deep pockets from a multi #million investment and makes manufacturers of bicycles offers they can't refuse. Call up a product manager at one of the big bike makers you sell and ask how they come to the 'what to spec the bike with' decisions.

Mostly it's about $ and availability.

Your wrench, the best in SanDiego, obviously has figured out how to make the FD work the best he can. He probably knows the tricks to make the ceramic 'stuff' last longer than the steel items costing 1/4 as much(BB), probably has figured out the warranty process at sram(call, ask for a new anything, for any reason, get it with a addressed bag). Knows how to make Ksyrium rear hubs stop screetching and how to make 6700/7900 shift well.

But his salary is paid by selling the bikes on the floor, you know, the ones with sram....nobody working in a Chevy dealer badmouths Chevy, but the independent down the street, that works on Chevy's....can.

Once again, what shop?

as I said, to each their own... I work at the shop for the fun of it, certainly not for the money... I have a regular job for that...

enjoy the day!

[Uncle Jam's Army]

That speaks of naivete on the part of the builders, rather than duplicity on the part of SRAM, doesn't it?

The point I made is that I think SRAM had an affirmative obligation to inform everyone what they were getting (old Red, rather than the new, soon-to-be-released Red). Had they done so, none of this dust-up would have occurred.

[Idris Icabod]

Seems to me the 2011 and the 2012 are not that massively different, at least in the 'glance at the bike and see if it is dressed with Shimano, Campagnolo or SRAM way', I certainly wouldn't notice that the FD has a Ti or steel cage or whatever the new improvement was.

I like the pictures from NAHBS, I check the websites to see pictures of the bikes. I love the paint, the innovative ways builders have integrated cables, seatposts, stems etc. or done something a bit out of the norm. I do however scratch my head when places like cyclingnews.com has a dozen pictures of the SRAM crankset or RD in their coverage of NAHBS bikes.

What I'm saying is this seems a bit of a storm in a teacup, does anyone really give a toss which group set is on these beautiful frames? I could see being pi$$ed if a builder wanted the cleanest looking frame and Shimano told him/her they only had a Di2 group with external wires and you turn up and see everyone else has internal wires, but this is old and new SRAM, some nice tweeks but aesthetically about the same.

[Kontact]

Just because a shop owner dislikes SRAM, that doesn't mean the owner's opinion is somehow more valid than every one else's.

The owner of my shop likes SRAM. He's been in the industry longer than Oldpotatoe, raced on the national team in the '70 and '80s, held some track records, has several bike related patents, built frames with Mike Appel and sponsored a cycling team. But instead of assuming my boss knows something OP doesn't, I think it is much easier to assume that all of this component arguing is all about opinion, not facts.

Garmin did switch to Di2 - that is a fact. Does anyone really believe that no money was involved in that?

[SamIAm]

This tempest in a teapot puzzles me. It sounds like SRAM would like to control the release of their newest product in such a way as to benefit their largest customers using a much larger stage.

Try as I might, I just can't find anything wrong with that.

Nor do I think they intentionally misled the builders. It doesn't sound like the builders who were wise enough to ask, got squishy answers from SRAM. They got a straightforward no, its not the new stuff. There was probably even an element of concern or prudence to not promise the new stuff as time lines on new product development and release have a way of slipping.

Further, I think its sad that builder think that hanging the newest SRAM Red stuff on their frames is a good thing and will make a difference to the attendees of NAHBS.

[dekindy]

Sram who? :rolleyes:
http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=94685&highlight=campagnolo+poll

Maybe SRAM saw this poll; 12% of a small pond, or tank as somebody characterized it. If "our community" has influence that should be worth of SRAM's consideration, which I don't agree with BTW, it would be for Campy and Shimano, not SRAM.

[nm87710]

Just because a shop owner dislikes SRAM, that doesn't mean the owner's opinion is somehow more valid than every one else's.

Their is a big difference between saying something and being respected for what you say. Sometimes it's hard to tell the difference on the internets. Respect is earned - not preached.

[gemship]

I guess I'm surprised by the builders of these beautiful hand made frames and their preference for using Sram when by and large those of us who own hand made frames prefer to adorn them with Campagnolo or Shimano.
I think this site can attest to that fact.


+1 and great post by DK, I have yet to read the thread in entirety, so a little credit to everyone because this one is big. So I'll raise you as I am baffled that I don't understand why a builder wouldn't want to maybe have a couple of different make model groups to show off on their bikes. I mean people can be aloof to the fact that not only can a custom bike mean personalize in frame building construction but also in terms of ordering the bike complete from a builder with one's own choice of parts.

[gemship]

Maybe SRAM saw this poll; 12% of a small pond, or tank as somebody characterized it. If "our community" has influence that should be worth of SRAM's consideration, which I don't agree with BTW, it would be for Campy and Shimano, not SRAM.


agreed I read a lot of bad stuff about SRAM. I'd really like to sit down with RS and have him explain to me why he likes SRAM. Now I'm interested in all this and baffled. I really like to think he knows his stuff but I wonder if he always got a decent deal being sponsored and their stuff was just good enough that he tolerated it, he's in the minority most try SRAM and don't like it or stick with it.

[oldpotatoe]

Just because a shop owner dislikes SRAM, that doesn't mean the owner's opinion is somehow more valid than every one else's.

The owner of my shop likes SRAM. He's been in the industry longer than Oldpotatoe, raced on the national team in the '70 and '80s, held some track records, has several bike related patents, built frames with Mike Appel and sponsored a cycling team. But instead of assuming my boss knows something OP doesn't, I think it is much easier to assume that all of this component arguing is all about opinion, not facts.

Garmin did switch to Di2 - that is a fact. Does anyone really believe that no money was involved in that?

Gee, thanks for that.

But I guess you agree with the owner of your shop, don't you?

Guess that's a good thing to do. I don't care whether you agree with me or not. Yopu don't work for me. Yep, likes most things here, it is IMHO, nothing more. Except for the 'facts' that RS and IF talked about.

My info is that there was no money involved except the money paid to shimmano for their equipment, for JV and Garmin.

BTW-How long have I been in the 'industry'?

[gemship]

This tempest in a teapot puzzles me. It sounds like SRAM would like to control the release of their newest product in such a way as to benefit their largest customers using a much larger stage.

Try as I might, I just can't find anything wrong with that.

Nor do I think they intentionally misled the builders. It doesn't sound like the builders who were wise enough to ask, got squishy answers from SRAM. They got a straightforward no, its not the new stuff. There was probably even an element of concern or prudence to not promise the new stuff as time lines on new product development and release have a way of slipping.

Further, I think its sad that builder think that hanging the newest SRAM Red stuff on their frames is a good thing and will make a difference to the attendees of NAHBS.


I agree with mostly everything you say but it would of been decent for SRAM if they could of at least been more upfront with it in the beginning and to be "fair" to everyone and try to give them all one of the 2012 group to have alongside the 2011's. Then at least the builders could explain themselves if need be(not that they won't anyways) and show off a completely new 2010 bike. I also in a way give credit to the custom builders like RS and IF for expressing their displeasure. Although their wait times are long especially for a Sachs it seems like these small builders really do want to be competitive with the big bike companies and maybe open the public's eyes to custom bikes. You don't have to be a bike geek... only a little bit to know that a custom made for you frame can be had for the same sometimes less money than any flagship carbon wonder bike from Trek, Specialized, etc.

[gemship]

But instead of assuming my boss knows something OP doesn't, I think it is much easier to assume that all of this component arguing is all about opinion, not facts.


I'm willing to bet after all my hours of life reading this and that about bikes,equipment, groups that if any of us took a poll we would find Sram in last place for performance and reliability,serviceability. I just think more discerning customers who take the time to evaluate tend to dislike Sram product and that's pretty much a assumable fact.

[fourflys]

I'm willing to bet after all my hours of life reading this and that about bikes,equipment, groups that if any of us took a poll we would find Sram in last place for performance and reliability,serviceability. I just think more discerning customers who take the time to evaluate tend to dislike Sram product and that's pretty much a assumable fact.

except for the fact that SRAM is pretty much ubiquitous in cross racing... here is an environment that is MUCH more demanding that road racing and yet a TON of racers are on it, especially if you look at the non-sponsored riders...

just sayin'...

[Kontact]

Gee, thanks for that.

But I guess you agree with the owner of your shop, don't you?

Guess that's a good thing to do. I don't care whether you agree with me or not. Yopu don't work for me. Yep, likes most things here, it is IMHO, nothing more. Except for the 'facts' that RS and IF talked about.

My info is that there was no money involved except the money paid to shimmano for their equipment, for JV and Garmin.

BTW-How long have I been in the 'industry'?
I agree that there is nothing particulary wrong with SRAM, and that there are some things not particularly right with the other two. Neutrality is a pretty easy stance to agree with.

My "info", which is probably just as fourth or fifth hand as yours, is from our Cervelo and SRAM reps.

How long? From some of the stuff you talk about, it sounds like you became active in shops in the early '80s. If that is in error, pardon. But I was not attempting to discredit you, I was attempting to add some perspective. You are a wealth of information and experience, most of the time it is good information. Other people have that, too.

[oldpotatoe]

except for the fact that SRAM is pretty much ubiquitous in cross racing... here is an environment that is MUCH more demanding that road racing and yet a TON of racers are on it, especially if you look at the non-sponsored riders...

just sayin'...


'non sponsored riders', that's funny. Cross in Socal is not very demending, unless it rains, I guess.

Cross racing in the us is maybe 1-2% of the total bikes sold and ridden. HUGE in Europe, pretty small in the US.

Those that start with a frame, not a bike, and buy their stuff are more likely to choose shimano, IMHO/E. At least that's what I see here. Most cross bikes sold/raced/ridden come outta a box, and lots are sram, for the same OE reasons($$$) as road and lots of MTBs.

[gemship]

except for the fact that SRAM is pretty much ubiquitous in cross racing... here is an environment that is MUCH more demanding that road racing and yet a TON of racers are on it, especially if you look at the non-sponsored riders...

just sayin'...


I can't argue with that because I never got to cross racing on the west coast for that matter the only cross race I've been to is in Gloucester,Ma. but I do know and recall most of what I read on the internet. Isn't terrible that the internet is the biggest audience and it's all just sort of like armchair quarterback, I mean you really gotta take it from the source yet the number of negative toward Sram voiced over the internet don't lie. Sure Shimano has their rep for being the evil empire and having shifters that can't be serviced quite like a Campy but most all will associate the words quiet and precision with Shimano more so than Red. Again probably should just take it from the source.

[oldpotatoe]

I agree that there is nothing particulary wrong with SRAM, and that there are some things not particularly right with the other two. Neutrality is a pretty easy stance to agree with.

My "info", which is probably just as fourth or fifth hand as yours, is from our Cervelo and SRAM reps.


shimano is big and evil, Campagnolo is expensive with poor customer service...right?

Certain advantage in being in a team's(Garmin) 'home town'....with a former member living 2 doors down.

If your shop likes it and the $, groovy, like I said, if it helps a shop stay in biz, that's a good thing.

wonder when I'll get the next phone call from sram...i know they monitor this forum along with others.

UPDATE-

Wow, got a call from Ed from sram at about 1pm...very cordial.

[Jawn P]

except for the fact that SRAM is pretty much ubiquitous in cross racing... here is an environment that is MUCH more demanding that road racing and yet a TON of racers are on it, especially if you look at the non-sponsored riders...

just sayin'...

SRAMs sponsorship even helps out the littler guys. That certainly is a strength to the brand.

My team is sponsored (via the local sales rep) via SRAM, and they go out of their way to help us out.

[tsarpepe]

Just because a shop owner dislikes SRAM, that doesn't mean the owner's opinion is somehow more valid than every one else's.

This is a bit harsh (toward oldpotatoe), apart from being wrong. I, for one, would immediately admit that a shop owner's opinion on the qualities of SRAM is more valid than mine, since I've never touched the stuff and never had any feedback from users.

[fourflys]

'non sponsored riders', that's funny. Cross in Socal is not very demending, unless it rains, I guess.

Cross racing in the us is maybe 1-2% of the total bikes sold and ridden. HUGE in Europe, pretty small in the US.
.

the only response I'll say to this is almost all of the bikes that get tested by Cyclocross Magazine have SRAM, including the coveted Moots PsycloX in the last issue... not sure if Moots sent that groupset or not though...

also, one current and one former Master's champs Don Myrah and Barb Howe both race with SRAM, although Danny Summerhill (Garmin) does use Shimamo... all three ride Ibis bikes and offers the bike with SRAM or Shimano... the riders may be sponsored by SRAM individually, I'm not sure...

I'd love to see some numbers on which brand is most used in cross... also I was looking outside of SoCal when I posted before...

[beeatnik]

IMO, it would be useful for many here to re-read The Tipping Point and, conversely, to check out road bike reviews on www.performancebike.com

Then, possibly, the distinction between trends, niche markets, and MBA driven marketing would be better understood.

It's amazing (only to people here) how many people think a $1000 bike with Rival is a top of the line machine. There are exponentially more Freds in the world than racers or velocipede salon/serotta forum-type connoisseurs. Why is that so easily forgotten?

[William]

....It's amazing (only to people here) how many people think a $1000 bike with Rival is a top of the line machine. There are exponentially more Freds in the world than racers or velocipede salon/serotta forum-type connoisseurs. Why is that so easily forgotten?

I'm reminded of this almost every time I go into my lbs. Someone comes in (individual or parents with kids) and are incredulous that a "bicycle" could cost a thousand dollars+.





William

[beeatnik]

Exactly.

This past xmas I picked up a GT road bike with Rival (for my brudder) at a 50% discount from Performance. With California state tax, the total topped $1000. My CC wouldn't go through. So, the nice people at Performance called my CC company and I had to explain to a nice lady in the South that I was buying a $1000 bike. "Is that a new motorcycle?" she asked. Told her I was buying a bicycle. Stunned silence for about 20 seconds. So, basically, the fraud identification algorithm my CC uses couldn't fathom that a bike would top a grand. The irony is that I used a credit card which is strictly for bike purchases, thousands of dollars yearly in bike crap.

Who's the comic who calls this stuff First World Problems?

[oldpotatoe]

the only response I'll say to this is almost all of the bikes that get tested by Cyclocross Magazine have SRAM, including the coveted Moots PsycloX in the last issue... not sure if Moots sent that groupset or not though...

also, one current and one former Master's champs Don Myrah and Barb Howe both race with SRAM, although Danny Summerhill (Garmin) does use Shimamo... all three ride Ibis bikes and offers the bike with SRAM or Shimano... the riders may be sponsored by SRAM individually, I'm not sure...

I'd love to see some numbers on which brand is most used in cross... also I was looking outside of SoCal when I posted before...


I'm out, gotta take a force lever off a bike(specialized) to be sent back for warranty.

[bobswire]

I'm out, gotta take a force lever off a bike(specialized) to be sent back for warranty.

Cool, Sram helps keeps the maintenance side of your business going. :rolleyes:

[Kontact]

This is a bit harsh (toward oldpotatoe), apart from being wrong. I, for one, would immediately admit that a shop owner's opinion on the qualities of SRAM is more valid than mine, since I've never touched the stuff and never had any feedback from users.
You understand that I was comparing one very experienced shop owner to another very experienced shop owner, right?


Oldpotatoe - how is Ed today? I worked with him at a shop in Chicago in 1995. Quite a character.

[jimdohertyjim]

Does anybody even know if any bikes at NAHBS are going to have the new 2013 Red?

If no one has the new 2013 Red it's a fair game.

[ultraman6970]

available march 16

http://www.competitivecyclist.com/za/CCY?PAGE=BUY_PRODUCT_STANDARD&PRODUCT.ID=10801&MODE=

[nova]

With all due respect, IF and RS are fools if they only bring sram equipped bikes to NAHBS.

[palincss]

The point I made is that I think SRAM had an affirmative obligation to inform everyone what they were getting (old Red, rather than the new, soon-to-be-released Red). Had they done so, none of this dust-up would have occurred.

I guess they must have thought caveat emptor covered it.

[palincss]

What I'm saying is this seems a bit of a storm in a teacup, does anyone really give a toss which group set is on these beautiful frames?


It didn't seem that way to me -- after all, how many years do you have to wait if you order a Sachs or a Vanilla today before you see the frame? -- but e-Richie posted that he had a buyer decide not to take the frame built for him (which will be exhibited at the show) because it had "old, stale" Red rather than "new, fresh, 2012 black" Red. This continues to amaze me. The Sachs wait list last I heard was something like seven years, and after all that waiting this guy cancels because he isn't getting the newest new Red? Sheesh - weren't the latest groups still at 8 speed when he put down his deposit?

[fiamme red]

With all due respect, IF and RS are fools if they only bring sram equipped bikes to NAHBS.Why?

[nova]

Simple pawns in selling old stock.

As two of the America's premier bike builders I'd expect more respect than that offered by Sram. In saying this, the only form of protest is to show up without Sram.

It seems rational that if it's a big enough problem to announce to the world via website and then forums, that it's just silly to let the bikes be shown with politics they don't believe in.

[mistermo]

With all due respect, IF and RS are fools if they only bring sram equipped bikes to NAHBS.

Again, IF is different than RS. Team RS races SRAM equipped bikes. He promotes the SRAM brand and is loyal to it. When Shimano decided to sponsor the NAHBS, RS helped out SRAM by displaying posters saying, "Powerd by SRAM" in his booth. In short, he's promoted the SRAM brand.

Is it really unfathomable to expect that SRAM repay the loyalty displayed towards them by RS and give him just one measly group to display in his booth?

Is 'caveat emptor' the way to treat your loyal business partners? I think his point has validity, even if the diff between these groups is insignificant.

[bfd]

Sheesh - weren't the latest groups still at 8 speed when he put down his deposit?

Haha, that's funny!

Actually, the question should be "Was SRAM selling road groups, including Red, when he put down his deposit?!" Good Luck!

[oldpotatoe]

You understand that I was comparing one very experienced shop owner to another very experienced shop owner, right?


Oldpotatoe - how is Ed today? I worked with him at a shop in Chicago in 1995. Quite a character.

No, I didn't get that at all but such is the fuzziness of the interweb and forums, little omicons notwithstanding. I got your experienced owner, with patents and US team experience, is correct about sram(loves it) and I am somehow misguided in this grand scheme of bicycle stuff. Oh well, so it goes. Once again, if it helps his bottom line and he can look at himself in the mirror in the AM, well that's just fine.

Ed was willing to help but he was clearly not happy with my 'position', even if seen as uninformed by some in this forum.

Tuff potatoes, still not gonna have a sram bike in my demo fleet. I stand by everything I have said in this and other threads and forums.

[Earl Gray]

...but e-Richie posted that he had a buyer decide not to take the frame built for him (which will be exhibited at the show) because it had "old, stale" Red rather than "new, fresh, 2012 black" Red.


I find this a little hard to take. Does he only sell his frames as completed bikes. Why wouldn't this person just taken the frame and build it any way he pleases.

After waiting 7 years someone is going to walk away from their deposit.

More to the story I suspect.

[Charles M]

I would guess that both Richard and his customer could order the new group and pay the asking price if they were willing to wait for the products to become available.

IF could order and wait for the new stuff too if they wanted to.

And or all three could use the parts they ordered.


I just dont get why any of this has anything to do with SRAM launching once they had a solid date for production runs and inventory.




It might be worth a page if there was any sort of bait and switch effort being made, but again, SRAM didnt know their launch date when they offered a very good deal to RS, IF and a few other builders...

[dekindy]

Did anybody feel that this matter should have been handled behind the scenes versus making it public? Really can't see what good it did for consumers to know about this. I can somewhat understand the framebuilders' perspective but the spirit of the criticism toward SRAM was certainly a negative for me.

[dancinkozmo]

....

[nova]

Did anybody feel that this matter should have been handled behind the scenes versus making it public? Really can't see what good it did for consumers to know about this. I can somewhat understand the framebuilders' perspective but the spirit of the criticism toward SRAM was certainly a negative for me.

It sounds like both IF and RS tried to handle it behind the scenes, things didn't go well and they brought it up on the interwebz.

Additionally, how can it be behind the scenes? We are all going to be loathing over pictures from NAHBS a month from now while wondering why all of americas top frame builders have last generation sram red.

Also, I think it's great that someone like RS is sharing this with all interested, as a builder who works exclusively with sram it speaks volumes about the politics running sram. Transparency is rad.

[Kontact]

No, I didn't get that at all but such is the fuzziness of the interweb and forums, little omicons notwithstanding. I got your experienced owner, with patents and US team experience, is correct about sram(loves it) and I am somehow misguided in this grand scheme of bicycle stuff. Oh well, so it goes. Once again, if it helps his bottom line and he can look at himself in the mirror in the AM, well that's just fine.

Ed was willing to help but he was clearly not happy with my 'position', even if seen as uninformed by some in this forum.

Tuff potatoes, still not gonna have a sram bike in my demo fleet. I stand by everything I have said in this and other threads and forums.
OP, I like and respect you, so let me try to clear this up:

You have a perfect right to your opinion, and that opinion is formed from your experience with SRAM and as a top bike shop owner. You should feel free to let people know what you think, and you do. Great.

Everyone else should read what you think on the subject and reflect on it. But they should also consider that there are some other respectable, experienced and smart people who's experience with SRAM and other components have led them to a different conclusion. And it isn't because of bottom lines or Shimano hate, it is simply because they have had good experiences with SRAM, and maybe a not always so much with the other stuff. That's the way we look at it at the shop, and maybe the way IF and RS look at it, too. I'm sure some SRAM pundits are all about the Benjamins, but that isn't the case with our store, and probably a couple other smart places, too.

[oldpotatoe]

OP, I like and respect you, so let me try to clear this up:

You have a perfect right to your opinion, and that opinion is formed from your experience with SRAM and as a top bike shop owner. You should feel free to let people know what you think, and you do. Great.

Everyone else should read what you think on the subject and reflect on it. But they should also consider that there are some other respectable, experienced and smart people who's experience with SRAM and other components have led them to a different conclusion. And it isn't because of bottom lines or Shimano hate, it is simply because they have had good experiences with SRAM, and maybe a not always so much with the other stuff. That's the way we look at it at the shop, and maybe the way IF and RS look at it, too. I'm sure some SRAM pundits are all about the Benjamins, but that isn't the case with our store, and probably a couple other smart places, too.

"probably a couple other smart places, too"..and I guess some dum ones continue to be lost in the wilderness...oh well....I'm sure some of us in the bike biz see things that 'big bike stores' such as yours don't see, not sure why.

I'm out, the call from Ed and subsequent emails(nice gloves on the video, who uses gloves to wrench on a bicycle??) kinda sets this in stone for me.

'Just tell the truth"....hmmmm

Wonder who told Ed I was going to need a Force lever?? I wonder??

[Bob Loblaw]

+1

I like knowing this sort of thing and making my own decisions about the quality of the parts and the character of the company. Otherwise all we have is marketing copy to go on.

BL

It sounds like both IF and RS tried to handle it behind the scenes, things didn't go well and they brought it up on the interwebz.

Additionally, how can it be behind the scenes? We are all going to be loathing over pictures from NAHBS a month from now while wondering why all of americas top frame builders have last generation sram red.

Also, I think it's great that someone like RS is sharing this with all interested, as a builder who works exclusively with sram it speaks volumes about the politics running sram. Transparency is rad.

[jr59]

"probably a couple other smart places, too"..and I guess some dum ones continue to be lost in the wilderness...oh well....I'm sure some of us in the bike biz see things that 'big bike stores' such as yours don't see, not sure why.

I'm out, the call from Ed and subsequent emails(nice gloves on the video, who uses gloves to wrench on a bicycle??) kinda sets this in stone for me.

'Just tell the truth"....hmmmm

Wonder who told Ed I was going to need a Force lever?? I wonder??

The truth shall set you free! Trouble is most people really don't want the truth.
Cue up A Few Good Men!

I think my signature says it all!
I don't care for Sram, and that has NOTHING to do with Old tuff Potatoe.

It has to do with most of my friend that ride that stuff all have a lot of problems with it.

I would rather ride my bike than fix it.

Ride what you want, but for me, it won't be sram.

Besides that name always makes me think of a rash that I need to get rid of.

[Kontact]

"probably a couple other smart places, too"..and I guess some dum ones continue to be lost in the wilderness...oh well....I'm sure some of us in the bike biz see things that 'big bike stores' such as yours don't see, not sure why.

I'm out, the call from Ed and subsequent emails(nice gloves on the video, who uses gloves to wrench on a bicycle??) kinda sets this in stone for me.

'Just tell the truth"....hmmmm

Wonder who told Ed I was going to need a Force lever?? I wonder??
We're a small shop, not a "big bike store". I have tried to illustrate that there are other opinions out there besides yours for reasons that aren't nefarious, but you keep turning this into something else.

And I certainly didn't call SRAM on you. I don't even know the name of your shop.

[SamIAm]

We are all going to be loathing over pictures from NAHBS a month from now while wondering why all of americas top frame builders have last generation sram red.



I assume you mean lusting, not loathing, but you can't be serious about the last generation sram red part, can you?

I also think its fine that that IF and Sachs brought their beef to the web. I don't think its particularly smart, but its fine. The knife cuts both ways. For all those who think this makes SRAM look bad, there are probably many more that think IF and Sachs look less than favorable.

[cincytri]

Should I sell the force groups that I have on my cross bikes? One of them is literally brand new, never ridden. I feel so foolish putting such a terrible product from a terrible company on my high-end frames. Rolls eyes...

[charliedid]

No, I didn't get that at all but such is the fuzziness of the interweb and forums, little omicons notwithstanding. I got your experienced owner, with patents and US team experience, is correct about sram(loves it) and I am somehow misguided in this grand scheme of bicycle stuff. Oh well, so it goes. Once again, if it helps his bottom line and he can look at himself in the mirror in the AM, well that's just fine.

Ed was willing to help but he was clearly not happy with my 'position', even if seen as uninformed by some in this forum.

Tuff potatoes, still not gonna have a sram bike in my demo fleet. I stand by everything I have said in this and other threads and forums.

So, the infamous "Taco Ed" is working for you Peter? I really need to visit your shop some day...

[Kontact]

So, the infamous "Taco Ed" is working for you Peter? I really need to visit your shop some day...
Tace Ed works for SRAM. He called OP after reading this thread, apparently.

[charliedid]

Tace Ed works for SRAM. He called OP after reading this thread, apparently.

Yeah, I knew that....I was just taking my second sip of coffee and thinking, that could not be right. Stranger things have happened.

So Kontact, you worked at Turin?

[Ahneida Ride]

The web has changed the metrics for how you measure a small pond. A small pond we may be, but the waves are bigger than you think.

Amen !

[cw05]

I also think its fine that that IF and Sachs brought their beef to the web. I don't think its particularly smart, but its fine. The knife cuts both ways. For all those who think this makes SRAM look bad, there are probably many more that think IF and Sachs look less than favorable.

Ditto that. I think the new Red stuff is a little garish personally but that's besides the point. Just don't bad mouth any custom framebuilders unless you want a beat down...component makers are apparently free game.

[Kontact]

Yeah, I knew that....I was just taking my second sip of coffee and thinking, that could not be right. Stranger things have happened.

So Kontact, you worked at Turin?
For a summer, but I worked with Ed at RRB Cycles a few years later.

[harryblack]

I had little interest in either builder though no negative opinion and know folks who like their bikes just fine.

Now, however, I have zero interest and consider both their SRAM advocacy ** and ** bashing 1) silly and 2) unseemly.

Q: what road component has SRAM made better than Campagnolo or Shimano or any # of other manufacturers who don't do full groups?

But Force is 100 grams lighter, woo!

And is 2012 Red really less fugly than 2011? Perhaps so.

Everyone is entitled to their choice of functionality/aesthetics but I am under no illusion that SRAM is any kind of beneficent company.

[Kontact]

Q: what road component has SRAM made better than Campagnolo or Shimano or any # of other manufacturers who don't do full groups?
Since you ask, some people really, really like the ergonomics of the Double Tap levers. I personally can never quite find a comfortable drop or hood position where I can reach the Campy thumb button, for instance.

My second favorite is the placement of the Microshift buttons. Ultegra Di2 is the worst.

The only other thing SRAM has going for it are the strongest RD springs, which are pretty nice for dirt and internal cable routing.


Other than that, I agree with your post. Much ado about components which are decent and light, but aren't amazing or perfect.

[fourflys]

this one's starting to get a bit personal... I'm guessing all that can be said had been said in this one...

[weiwentg]

This has been entertaining a la Desperate Housewives. Now I'm going to ride my freaking bike, though.

[dekindy]

agreed I read a lot of bad stuff about SRAM. I'd really like to sit down with RS and have him explain to me why he likes SRAM. Now I'm interested in all this and baffled. I really like to think he knows his stuff but I wonder if he always got a decent deal being sponsored and their stuff was just good enough that he tolerated it, he's in the minority most try SRAM and don't like it or stick with it.

I will take a crack at it. An long-time racer who is also a Serotta trained fitter and a long-time employee of the LBS that I frequent would have every reason to not be interested in a new market entrant summarized it this way; SRAM tried to engineer in all the best attributes of Shimano and Campy plus a major innovation in the double-tap.

I can't remember all the reasons off the top of my head but one was being able to rebuild instead of having to replace. Shimano cannot be rebuilt(for the most part) and Campy can, advantage Campy so SRAM made their groupo so that it could be rebuilt. There were several other reasons that I cannot remember but there were two or three more major reasons. And then there is the innovation of double-tap. USA connection was not one of the reasons. There are probably some old threads that summarize the differences.

The major disadvantage that I have heard other not likening SRAM is drivetrain noise.

[dekindy]

If I could be so bold to summarize the sentiment on this forum towards this topic seems to be along the lines of bewilderment, "making a mountain out of a mole hill", "much ado about nothing", etc., and tending to be negative toward RS and IF.

More RS loyalists across the hall extolling the importance of the independent framebuilder market to SRAM's success and calling for everyone to vote with their dollars and boycott SRAM.

Does that about sum it up?

The more I think about it the more I see it this way. Visitors to RS's booth will be of two types; one type being on the waiting list and will eventually own a RS built bike and the other type being those that will never own a RS built bike but respect his knowledge and accomplishments very much and will be honored just to meet and talk with him. Neither of which will care what or even whether the frames in the booth have components hanging on them. Maybe there will be the one in a million that was hoping to take delivery at the Show but if they have waited this long a little longer may not matter.

IF on the other hand may have more of a beef. I don't know what percentage of IF's business is custom and what is standard and whether it would matter to their purchasers whether a groupo was on their bikes or not. My inclination that it would matter more to their prospective but how much more I don't have a clue.

I know for me personally the whole situation is a negative as in my eyes it makes all parties look bad. Of all the things that I as a consumer could read about NAHBS this wasn't one of them that I expected.

I don't know why I am so drawn to this topic but as it has drawn considerable interest and many diverse reactions and comments I can only take comfort that I am one of the rubber neckers also.

[fourflys]

apparently SRAM has seen they were in the wrong a bit about all this... Also, I think e-Richie needs to be commended for declining the offer of the new Red if all the NAHBS vendors couldn't have access to it... I misunderstood Richie's stuff when I first read this stuff... I think we all should take a step back and look at this anew...

http://www.richardsachs.com/site/2012/02/07/its-okay-to-have-an-opinion/

http://www.bicycleretailer.com/news/newsDetail/6468.html

[Earl Gray]

...... Also, I think e-Richie needs to be commended for declining the offer of the new Red if all the NAHBS vendors couldn't have access to it...


Wasn't that one of the original reason SRAM stated for not offering the newest stuff?

[palincss]

I can't remember all the reasons off the top of my head but one was being able to rebuild instead of having to replace. Shimano cannot be rebuilt(for the most part) and Campy can, advantage Campy so SRAM made their groupo so that it could be rebuilt.


However, it's my understanding that no replacement parts are available, so that "feature" is either purely theoretical, or a bad joke.

[Kontact]

However, it's my understanding that no replacement parts are available, so that "feature" is either purely theoretical, or a bad joke.
But that means it can be disassembled and cleaned.

SRAM probably changed its mind about providing small parts, and went with a big warranty department instead. But Campy is no longer providing parts, either, so the joke is on everyone.

[oldpotatoe]

However, it's my understanding that no replacement parts are available, so that "feature" is either purely theoretical, or a bad joke.

That is correct. They can be rebuilt, fairly easy, altho not as easy as Campagnolo, but no small parts available. For the ones I send back, I strip lots of the stuff that's useable but what seems to break are shift lever blades and the toothed cam...

[mistermo]

However, it's my understanding that no replacement parts are available, so that "feature" is either purely theoretical, or a bad joke.

I ride Campy, and these days the same could be said about them. Unless you go to Vecchio's. :beer:

[oldpotatoe]

I ride Campy, and these days the same could be said about them. Unless you go to Vecchio's. :beer:

Grazie...

the lack of Campagnolo support in the US is appalling. Even in the republic. I see some amazing stuff of Campagnolo equipped bicycles from other places. It's really not that hard.

Campagnolo NA, a small piece of Campagnolo, ITL, just doesn't have the resources to go on the road. Only one guy is going ALL over for the EPS cert(I get that today in Denver), bet he's cooked.

I have volunteered to work for Campagnolo as a tech rep around here.....but.........

[jr59]

Grazie...

the lack of Campagnolo support in the US is appalling. Even in the republic. I see some amazing stuff of Campagnolo equipped bicycles from other places. It's really not that hard.

Campagnolo NA, a small piece of Campagnolo, ITL, just doesn't have the resources to go on the road. Only one guy is going ALL over for the EPS cert(I get that today in Denver), bet he's cooked.

I have volunteered to work for Campagnolo as a tech rep around here.....but.........

Don't you do it! We like you right where you are. That way when I have a Campy question, I know who to call, and when my shifters need to be rebuilt, I know where to send them.

[dekindy]

Grazie...

the lack of Campagnolo support in the US is appalling. Even in the republic. I see some amazing stuff of Campagnolo equipped bicycles from other places. It's really not that hard.

Campagnolo NA, a small piece of Campagnolo, ITL, just doesn't have the resources to go on the road. Only one guy is going ALL over for the EPS cert(I get that today in Denver), bet he's cooked.

I have volunteered to work for Campagnolo as a tech rep around here.....but.........

So what is(are) the reason(s) that some ambitious bicycle industry person has not or will not jump in and fill this niche?

[El Chaba]

I assume you mean lusting, not loathing, but you can't be serious about the last generation sram red part, can you?

I also think its fine that that IF and Sachs brought their beef to the web. I don't think its particularly smart, but its fine. The knife cuts both ways. For all those who think this makes SRAM look bad, there are probably many more that think IF and Sachs look less than favorable.

This sums up the whole brohaha for me. Everybody lost.

[xjahx]

SRAM air-freights new Red to NAHBS

http://www.bicycleretailer.com/news/newsDetail/6545.html

Awaiting some recognition of this act.

[Dave Wages]

Interesting, it seems that stories sometimes have two sides?

My read on this is that it's pretty straight up, I doubt SRAM is timing the release of their parts to coincide with NAHBS, but at least they made an honest effort to make things right.

I suppose you can hate them for the way the shifter clicks, or how they direct their marketing and OEM sales, but hey, it's a free country, and all the better for having options. I personally like my Di2 bike, but I don't have a problem riding my Red/Force equipped road bike either. It's light, pretty intuitive, and never given me a problem. For those that like Campy, I say "vive le difference"!

Cheers,
Dave

[fourflys]

SRAM air-freights new Red to NAHBS

http://www.bicycleretailer.com/news/newsDetail/6545.html

Awaiting some recognition of this act.

sounds pretty cool to me...

[pdmtong]

SRAM air-freights new Red to NAHBS

http://www.bicycleretailer.com/news/newsDetail/6545.html

Awaiting some recognition of this act.

The Baum with new Red had a non-functional crank - the pedal inserts had no threads.

[don compton]

Yep, sram couldn't spare say 10-15 red groups out of the 15,000-20,000 they will 'sell' to trekspecializedgiant..I can see it would really put a bind into their attempt at world wide dominance.

It's not about numbers or influence or power..it's about perception. This forum and the 3 others I am on have a very dim view of sram...VERY similiar to the cutthroat, take no prisoner, arrogant practices of special-ed.

sram are being pricks, and is in keeping with my dealings with those in their ivory towers...thanks, no sram for me or my shop. No demo bikes with it, no spare parts, shimano works just fine(better).

The outside sram guy wonders why I feel this way...he's needs to spend some time in the trenches. When sram isn't a price/great deal, only reason for their OE presence right now, they will disappear like suntour did.

AMF
AMEN. Sram is just an opportunity for some corporate types to make some fast bucks on a stock IPO. No long term quality commitment.