OT, right/wrong, 3rd graders and spouses

[jimcav]

I hear this all after the fact: my son has a friend over, my wife sees him (from another room via reflection in sliding glass door) pocket some legos, calls him on it, he hands it over. She gives him the "this is just between us" speech. later that night, my son discovers something else missing. My wife texts the other mom, with the "they were playing can you please check for _____ as maybe he didn't realize he left with it" Yep, other mom finds it--tells him to give it back at school the next day.
Kid returns it to my son the next day--puts it in his back pack, tells him he put it there "yesterday " (the day he stole it). tells his mom he gave it back as directed. My wife tells none of the true extent of this to the other mom.

I think she should, and furthermore, I said any 3rd grader knows right and wrong and this kid is a liar and a thief and he knows exactly what he is doing--he stole stuff even after she caught him and talked to him.

anyway, i think he is a little creep and not someone i ever want over again--he is going to do anything he wants to if he thinks he can get away with it--and i told my wife she is just helping him do that.

wondered if anyone here went through anything similar (either side of it--not that i expect many response of "my kid was a creep but he grew out of it")

[Grant McLean]

Human behaviour is complex.

People lie for different reasons, usually because they are afraid and ashamed,
not because they're sociopathic who don't know right from wrong.

The act of taking something that isn't yours can be symbolic expression of
anger or just a childish impulse of wanting something. It's often more
self-destructive than anything. Make you wonder why a kid wants to get
in trouble, right? Maybe just wants attention, makes you wonder why
they'd take a risk, when they have a lot more to lose than to gain.

-g

[SamIAm]

If I were the parent of that child, I would want to know.

[vqdriver]

tough spot. i agree with GM that there's a myriad reasons why kids do the things they do, especially at that age when maturity levels are all over the place. we see WHAT they're doing, but oftentimes, it's the WHY that needs to be addressed.

ultimately, i agree with your impulse to tell the other parent. what they do with that info is up to them but they need to know what their child is up to, cuz clearly he's lying to them. if nothing else, at least you'll raise their antennae in the future.

[pedlpwrd]

My son had stolen a candy from Shop Rite once. I found out as he was sucking on it when we'd gotton home. He was about 7 or 8 then. I drove him back there and had him turn himself over to store security. A few months later I found him with Pokemon cards that I knew we had not bought for him. I find that it's a popular thing in elementary school, to "borrow" from your friends. Turns out he "borrowed" it without the other child who owned the cards' permission. I had him do a visit to the local PD and they made him an "Honorary Deputy" and he never did anything that scandelous again. I would agree that I would not have that child in my house and even further I would try to influence your child to not associate with the boy so much. Keep us posted on how this plays out if you would? I would find it intresting as it unfolds. Best of Luck!

[bargainguy]

I agree that the other kid will probably continue stealing as long as he thinks he can get away with it. But I don't think that's the only issue at play.

When you tell your wife that she's essentially enabling the other kid to steal, it's an integrity violation on her. Saying you're helping the other kid be a thief is virtually the same as calling her a thief. She might not have handled it the way you wanted her to, but you weren't there. It's her call.

I have two rules for relationships: 1. Never violate the integrity of your partner. 2. Never knowingly allow the integrity of your partner to be violated by someone else.

If it were me -- and this is all hindsight, mind you -- I would have discussed with my wife the best way to approach the other kid and the reasons therefore without pointing fingers at her. "How can we best stop the kid from doing this? Do we need to contact the other kid's parents immediately if we catch them stealing from us?" That way, it's just one problem instead of two.

Don

[tiretrax]

Why would your son want him to come to your house again? He needs to learn the lesson, too, on choosing friends.

[jimcav]

But I have yet to hear what sounds like that. If not for the reflection, he would not have been caught, if not for getting caught, my son would not have checked later to see if all his stuff was there (honestly, he has sooo many legos it is insane)--by the time it was noticed, it would be well after the fact and hard to definitively accuse someone.

not saying he is a little "Dexter", but i think my wife was wrong in not telling the mom. I think i am going to put my foot down and say he is not coming back into our house unless my wife has the honest true talk with the mom--she can blame me and say i unreasonably try to instill and enforce certain values or whatever excuse she wants (ie Jim is a bit of an A$$-h0le)


Human behaviour is complex.

People lie for different reasons, usually because they are afraid and ashamed,
not because they're sociopathic who don't know right from wrong.

The act of taking something that isn't yours can be symbolic expression of
anger or just a childish impulse of wanting something. It's often more
self-destructive than anything. Make you wonder why a kid wants to get
in trouble, right? Maybe just wants attention, makes you wonder why
they'd take a risk, when they have a lot more to lose than to gain.

-g

[jimcav]

Why would your son want him to come to your house again? He needs to learn the lesson, too, on choosing friends.

he does seem to like him. We just moved here 6 months ago and i know he wants to have more friends (if for no other reason than to have more playing options when others are busy/gone/etc), and luckily my son has at least 3-4 other good friends. So far he is understanding of my reasoning, but he can't really abstractly understand how this behavior could make other behavior more likely, how it shows no respect for him as a friend, etc

[Chad Engle]

I have three children, 15, 13 and 7. The 7 year old has a friend that I've had several run ins with and I refuse to let him come over for play dates anymore. Just general disrespect that I won't tolerate. It doesn't bother me a bit to ask him to invite other friends over.

Trust is very difficult to earn back. Cut your losses and find some new buddies for your son to hang with.

At the same time I believe that it takes a village to raise a child, but I've been stern with this one several times and he fails to see the light. I've seen the behavior with his own parents, I don't have much hope of saving this one so we'll find friends who model behavior I want my child to emulate.

[jimcav]

I did not use the term enabling, and i did present it in a calm and more tactful way, as to the effectiveness, and that my opinion was he would only see it as he got away without any real consequences. In fact, that was why after this, we had my son cehck for anything else, which led to the text to the mom. Anyway, i did not adopt and "i told you so" attitude then, nor did my wife say "you were right" because i did not really talk to her in such a manner that it would have to be viewed that way.

That said, it is truly my opinion the way she handled it was not optimal, but then I am more rigid or idealistic about fairness, equity, and consequences. My wife is more concerned with harmony. I do understand the difference and possibly the importance of each approach. But i also imagine things that might not happen--like my son is friends with this kid who does someting and sets it up for him to take the fall. That is how i view the boy and the situation.

I agree that the other kid will probably continue stealing as long as he thinks he can get away with it. But I don't think that's the only issue at play.

When you tell your wife that she's essentially enabling the other kid to steal, it's an integrity violation on her. Saying you're helping the other kid be a thief is virtually the same as calling her a thief. She might not have handled it the way you wanted her to, but you weren't there. It's her call.

I have two rules for relationships: 1. Never violate the integrity of your partner. 2. Never knowingly allow the integrity of your partner to be violated by someone else.

If it were me -- and this is all hindsight, mind you -- I would have discussed with my wife the best way to approach the other kid and the reasons therefore without pointing fingers at her. "How can we best stop the kid from doing this? Do we need to contact the other kid's parents immediately if we catch them stealing from us?" That way, it's just one problem instead of two.

Don

[jimcav]

I am going to have him NOT be on the guest list.

I have three children, 15, 13 and 7. The 7 year old has a friend that I've had several run ins with and I refuse to let him come over for play dates anymore. Just general disrespect that I won't tolerate. It doesn't bother me a bit to ask him to invite other friends over.

Trust is very difficult to earn back. Cut your losses and find some new buddies for your son to hang with.

At the same time I believe that it takes a village to raise a child, but I've been stern with this one several times and he fails to see the light. I've seen the behavior with his own parents, I don't have much hope of saving this one so we'll find friends who model behavior I want my child to emulate.

[AngryScientist]

If I were the parent of that child, I would want to know.

same here

[rugbysecondrow]

If I were the parent of that child, I would want to know.


Ditto, but I also think 3rd graders do all sorts of things that as grown ups we don't understand. Stealing to them is just taking something because they want it, not because they understand work, value, earning, money etc etc. It doesn't make it right by any means, it just makes it different, IMO.

I did the same thing as another person above, my daughter stole something from the Disney store. I found out at home, drove her back to the mall, at Christmas time, marched her into the store, asked for the manager and then she had to hand over the goods and apologize for stealing. The manager was good as she was polite, but direct about how that is not right. I was glad she didn't poo poo what I was doing.

Anyway, the kid may end up being a ****. I had a neighbor kid who stole as a kid and is a thief today. On the other hand, I know I lifted baseball cards from the hardware store as a 4th grader and by the 6th grade I would have never done such a thing. Although, there might have been a altercation with my Dad which dissuaded me of any notion of theft, EVER. Tell the parent, hopefully they handle it appropriately.

As an aside, if it is worth it, let the kid earn your trust back to play with your son. Part of the lesson of life is not just right or wrong, but how to rebound after doing something wrong. Forgiveness and grace is a powerful lesson.

[buldogge]

I don't often agree with rugby...but...this is spot on.

-Mark in St. Louis

Ditto, but I also think 3rd graders do all sorts of things that as grown ups we don't understand. Stealing to them is just taking something because they want it, not because they understand work, value, earning, money etc etc. It doesn't make it right by any means, it just makes it different, IMO.

I did the same thing as another person above, my daughter stole something from the Disney store. I found out at home, drove her back to the mall, at Christmas time, marched her into the store, asked for the manager and then she had to hand over the goods and apologize for stealing. The manager was good as she was polite, but direct about how that is not right. I was glad she didn't poo poo what I was doing.

Anyway, the kid may end up being a ****. I had a neighbor kid who stole as a kid and is a thief today. On the other hand, I know I lifted baseball cards from the hardware store as a 4th grader and by the 6th grade I would have never done such a thing. Although, there might have been a altercation with my Dad which dissuaded me of any notion of theft, EVER. Tell the parent, hopefully they handle it appropriately.

As an aside, if it is worth it, let the kid earn your trust back to play with your son. Part of the lesson of life is not just right or wrong, but how to rebound after doing something wrong. Forgiveness and grace is a powerful lesson.

[93legendti]

I hear this all after the fact: my son has a friend over, my wife sees him (from another room via reflection in sliding glass door) pocket some legos, calls him on it, he hands it over. She gives him the "this is just between us" speech. later that night, my son discovers something else missing. My wife texts the other mom, with the "they were playing can you please check for _____ as maybe he didn't realize he left with it" Yep, other mom finds it--tells him to give it back at school the next day.
Kid returns it to my son the next day--puts it in his back pack, tells him he put it there "yesterday " (the day he stole it). tells his mom he gave it back as directed. My wife tells none of the true extent of this to the other mom.

I think she should, and furthermore, I said any 3rd grader knows right and wrong and this kid is a liar and a thief and he knows exactly what he is doing--he stole stuff even after she caught him and talked to him.

anyway, i think he is a little creep and not someone i ever want over again--he is going to do anything he wants to if he thinks he can get away with it--and i told my wife she is just helping him do that.

wondered if anyone here went through anything similar (either side of it--not that i expect many response of "my kid was a creep but he grew out of it")
I have a 3rd grader. If my child was the "creep", I'd want to know it. I agree with you.

My son is in kindergarten and was being "energetic" earlier in the year and getting warnings from the teacher. I can't remember what he did the last time, but the next day I had him apologize to that child and the teacher (for wasting her time and making her job harder). He wasn't happy, but he did it.

NOW, he gets several mensch cards per day, and in the words of his teacher, he is "soaring in his reading and writing".

He took a book to school last week and wanted to read it to me before the bell ask asked if he could read it to the class. He did and others started to do the same.
It's not too early to learn right and wrong, good and bad. It will
only benefit the child.

[Louis]

I think the parents are the key.

Some will deny and minimize the act, and shield their kid all the way. Others will handle it in a responsible manner by teaching the kid a firm, but gentle lesson. I suppose some will remove their belt and give the kid a few hard whacks. Done properly that may also work, but these days there is less and less of that.

[93legendti]

2 summers ago, a boy in my daughters class, at a party, was walking up to me and said to me : "I'm going to kick you" and he did kick me! Hard! He came with a friend's parent.
It was out of left field. He had been at our home before and always joked with me and was always nice to my daughter. In fact, she had stuck up for him in school vs the class bully and said "Asa is such a sweetie, he doesn't bother anyone".
I left a message for his Mom. When she heard, she was horrified, was very glad to know what had happened, and had her son call me and apologize. (The parent he was with never told the boy's Mom!) I told the boy that it takes a big man to apologize and he was welcome at our home any time.
Whenever I see him in school, I ask him how he is doing, give him five, and tussle his hair.
He was here for my daughter's birthday party 2 weeks ago and he was a perfect gentleman. In fact, I forgot about our encounter until this thread came up.

Mistakes happen. It's what takes place after that matters.

[Wilkinson4]

I had a neighbor across the street who had a gaggle of kids. His 3 year old son one day took to throwing rocks at me from across the street while I mowed. It was kinda funny because he would throw the rock, laugh so hard that that no neck monster would slap his knee and go hide.

Then the postman came by and he threw rocks at his truck. So, now Dad is out and I call him over and tell him what happened. He brings his kid over after a talk and tells him to apologize. He did, tears and more tears. I accept and shake their hands. Done and done.

Most parents want to know and most kids are not little creeps. But, almost all kids are kids so cut em some slack imo.

mIKE

[wc1934]

I would inform the parents - if they become defensive and dismissive I would end that relationship - however if they hear you, are receptive and force their child to make amends, i would give the kid another chance.
I would explain the decision (which ever way it turns out) to my kid as well- use it as a teaching moment for you child.

[ultraman6970]

Agree with many here, the mom's kid has to know. What she does with the kid is her problem tho, some parents really don't care anyways.

My older stole a couple of things in the store just because he wanted them, that was his reason. As many, had to go back to the store and make him return it with an apology.

Have seen mom's dont move a muscle when their kids a jumping over other kids back's for example so pretty much who knows what is going on in their houses too, everybody has to agree some little buggers are a real PITA too.

[jimcav]

really appreciate the comments and once again will make use of the collective forum wisdom!

[Grant McLean]

I have two rules for relationships: 1. Never violate the integrity of your partner. 2. Never knowingly allow the integrity of your partner to be violated by someone else.
Don

Pretty darn good rules Don!

-g

[djg]

I think you've gotten some good advice. Lots of kids go through a short phase where they steal things or money. Most get serious negative feedback and pass out of the phase fairly quickly. One or two events quickly. Others take a little more time. It's up to the parents to decide how to deal with the problem, but nobody is doing the kid or the parents any favors by keeping things quiet. More generally, it's extremely common for generally nice kids to be jerks sometimes -- some way more than others, of course, but I'd say that the kid who is nice (and honest, and decent) to everyone, every single day of growing up, is in the seriously small minority. Maybe the other kid is a creep, and it's up to you to decide what the means for you and yours, but I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that he's bad to the bone based on the lego incident.

[Grumbs]

Good advice so far.

I would add that one cannot make generalizations about a child's personality, based on their actions, the way one sometimes can with adults. Children actually have very few enduring traits while they are still young -- indelible ones that will stick -- and the ones they do have are not always the ones that manifest in visible actions. There is a reason why personality disorders cannot be diagnosed until after adolescence. Kids fare learning how to act, and you can't always tie a motive or personality trait to an action. A lot of the time it is immitation, and just as often it is experimentation.

[tannhauser]

That's the guy's role.

Women have infinitely complex relationships with each other. Let your wife fulfill her role as she sees fit.

[killacks]

Right vs. wrong, and the grey areas in between, are lessons that we learn and reevaluate constantly. Choices may not seem like the right/wrong ones until after they are made.

Whatever decision is made, hindsight is always 20/20.

[Dave B]

Bro, tough one to deal with. I am no expert on kids. Yeah I teach 12 year-olds, but I have so much to learn. One thing I have not seen anyone mention is a conversation with your own son. I am sure you have had that already, but just for giggles and stuff remind him of why you have a problem with what his friend did.

Let him know that it meant something incredibly important to you to see a young person not only make a mistake, but to repeat it again w/o hesitation.

You have your own view of this and it is important to work with your wife to educate your son as to what "the family" expects. She made a call on this and you need to support it, regardless of what you think should have been done. She confronted the kid the first time and it is her call to make. Mothers are more forgiving then us dads. That is why they are better then us. ;) Kids are more able to forgive and forget in these situations. It is also important to re-learn that from them. Be a dad, be an angry dad, but also be a dad who shows his son that making mistakes happen and that no matter what it is, not only is there a consequence, but there is also forgiveness and understanding.

Just a thought.

Cheers

Dave

[hybridbellbaske]

Reading this thread brought back one of earliest memories- I must have been about 5 or 6 (1967 or 1968) and I was playing at someone's house- I don't remember the kid, but I do remember that it was across the road from our house, and we were playing with Matchbox cars.

This kid had a Matchbox motorbike and trailer which would hitch on to the back of one of the cars. I thought it was the best thing had ever seen and I wanted it so much I put the motorbike- it had spoked wheels and was a blue gray colour- it in my pocket and took it home. It was so great I just had to have to have it and I don't believe at age 5 or so I gave any thought to any concept of rightful ownership etc.

The kid's mother spoke to my mother and my mother spoke to me. I said yes I took it, it was so great I just had to have it. There were no histrionics or shouting or anything dramatic, just an explanation that it wasn't mine and no matter how fantastic it was I couldn't just take it. I went back over the road the next day and gave it back, and apologised.

That experience has stayed with me a long time and now I steal whatever I can whenever I can get away with it. (Joke!!) Seriously, in retrospect I appreciated learning an important lesson quite early on.

Bottom line- I think it is important to let the kid's parents know.

[Kevan]

I notice a "It takes a village" theme going on here.