Food Confusion

[rbtmcardle]

Based on the recent thread regarding food, children and choices.. I am reading two books that were recommended in the thread.. Why We Get Fat and the China Study.. to this point it seems they are two opposing viewpoints that just further confuse this hopeless foodie. I suppose at the end of the day, the key will be eating moderate amounts of real unprocessed food will be my best effort to control weight and remain mostly disease free. I have given up beer and even the occasional soda, however, wine will remain on the table... for me there is not much better than a great fresh meal with good friends and good wine.

I suppose many here have struggled / struggle with the same issues, most importantly for me is instilling the good food habits in my children.

[bargainguy]

For me, cycling is a trajectory into better nutrition. I'm not a racer, but do ride every day. If you just stuff food without much thought like so many people do, you're just surviving, not thriving.

I have found the best foods for sustaining my cycling, and it's not particularly difficult: high quality protein -- mostly lean meats and fish, low-fat dairy; whole grains; lots of leafy veggies and fruit, no refined flour products. Not a drinker but wouldn't object to wine. Couldn't be simpler.

Don

[jimcav]

But, I also burn a lot of calories. Or i did--I have gained 10 pounds since hurting my hip in late August. I learned probably the best habits as a child--my mom and dad have been "health food" vegetarians since before i was born (i'm in my 40s). This was way before it was common or being marketed as a lifestyle etc. I confess to this day i don't like salads, because we had them all the time. But i still make the same "brown" bread (as i called it as a 5 yr old)--it is just half white and half whole wheat (4 cups of each), and now my kids love it too. My mom made her own yogurt, own peanut butter (nothing but peanuts--i helped shell them, she roasted them, then put them in a blender, no salt, no oil, nada), etc etc
I do like to eat, so I worry what i will do if i never get back to my former energy expenditures (for the last 10 years I have ridden at least 10,000 miles a year and run anywhere from 25-40 miles a week). The last 3 years i have also done some weights and swimming. I have given up a pretty good soda habit in december 2009--it was hard for 2 weeks, after a few months i didn't even like the taste of it anymore. I oddly still do like coke with pizza for some reason, much as i like a dark beer with chile.
Anyway, I know exactly why i get fat--i overeat high calorie foods and don't work out enough. Work is the worst--people bring in bagels, krispy kreme donuts, etc When I manage to clear out the pantry (not easy: my wife is no help on this as she caves in and gets snack chips and fruit loops etc) and have nothing but my home-made bread, yogurt, hummus, and lots of fruits and veggies, well i loose weight--I just CAN'T overeat on bell pepper, carrots, apples, etc--i get full before i get fat. However, I do have to remember to put those healthy things on the plate--otherwise my single "healthy" buffalo burger becomes 2, then i go get ice cream (which we mainly have for the kids, but if i am hungry, i eat it too). For me the key is to either burn more, or eat more of fruits and vegetables. it also helps that i don't mind eating the same things over and over. the sheer variety of crap in stores amazes me. I think i had toast and eggs every single morning when i was a kid, except sunday when my mom made pancakes. I had the same thing for lunch each day(PBJ, apple, brownie). the only variety was dinner--and even then i half the time boycotted the salad and had PBJ again (home made peanut butter and bread). oh, and and lots of milk.
Anyway, there is so much food around us, it is too easy to overeat, but if you surround your self with healthy choices, it is a lot harder (maybe not as tasty--but I think some of that becomes a habit--like how i 'loved" coke, and after not drinking it for months i was shocked at how it tasted)

[Louis]

I am reading two books that were recommended in the thread.. Why We Get Fat and the China Study.. to this point it seems they are two opposing viewpoints that just further confuse this hopeless foodie.

I'm not surprised by this. After that thread I did some digging around and found that Gary Taubes is a bit of a kook. (or at least what he says about diet is, I don't know him personally) I don't know anything about the China Study, but if it is more mainstream and fact-based, then I'm not surprised that it would contradict Taubes.

[Jaq]

You might also consider visiting a trained, certified nutritionist. Your health insurance should cover it; if not, it's worth the out-of-pocket expense.

I did this a few years back - I wanted a hands-on experience in which I had more control and someone to speak with and bounce ideas off of. It was great - no radical changes; just sensible, balanced advice.

[rugbysecondrow]

Based on the recent thread regarding food, children and choices.. I am reading two books that were recommended in the thread.. Why We Get Fat and the China Study.. to this point it seems they are two opposing viewpoints that just further confuse this hopeless foodie. I suppose at the end of the day, the key will be eating moderate amounts of real unprocessed food will be my best effort to control weight and remain mostly disease free. I have given up beer and even the occasional soda, however, wine will remain on the table... for me there is not much better than a great fresh meal with good friends and good wine.

I suppose many here have struggled / struggle with the same issues, most importantly for me is instilling the good food habits in my children.

Watch the documentary Fork over Knifes. I started readying the China Study, but you get the gist of it all in the documentary and you will save hours of your life.

I like the idea of a sensible diet which consists of many natural, whole foods. Within that, I have switched to a high ratio of whole plant foods, but I still like milk, steak, chicken fish, but just not as much as before.

One of the added benefits was that I could eat a plant based meal for lunch, then run very soon after with no upset stomach. I will warn you though, once you start down this path, eating a meal which goes against this grain might make you feel like ****e...which is frustrating for a while.

[Louis]

I like the idea of a sensible diet which consists of many natural, whole foods. Within that, I have switched to a high ratio of whole plant foods, but I still like milk, steak, chicken fish, but just not as much as before.

This sounds reasonable to me and is also my diet.

(Except that I've completely dropped out the animal milk, meat, chicken, and fish. But I've mostly done it for ethical / moral reasons, not to improve the quality of my intake. That's just a fringe benefit.)

[stephenmarklay]

Summary*

Taubes: Carbohydrates make you fat by raising insulin. You don't strictly need carbohydrates and if you don't eat them you will never get fat regardless of the number of calories you eat.

I say he is wrong. At least to some extent. Calories indeed DO count. The trick here is that when eating just fat and protein your blood sugar does indeed stay more stable and you will tend to be less hungry. I do think this could tame obesity in most people.

However, for me to get very lean <10% BF I weigh my food and then it does not matter you will lose weight with carbohydrates in the diet.

He hangs with the Paleo group.


China study. Eating fat causes high cholesterol and therefore heart disease.

That study has been implicated in bad science in that they supposedly cherry picked data to fit the theory. Whatever the truth there are a lot of outliers and paradoxical situations that make this theory suspect.


I think everyone had the correct idea. Drop anything that is man made. Eat fresh fruit, veggies meat, eggs and dairy for the best sources you can find. Don't get caught up in the giant amount of carbohydrate drinks that the studies say make you pedal faster. Eat a banana. Save the sports drinks and goos for the race when you have too.

For me that is all organic produce and as much from the farmers market as possible. I buy beef by the 1/4 cow from my local farm and eggs as well. Milk is raw as well.

I also think that how you look and feel is a very good indicator of your overall health. If you have 20 pounds to lose it likely is impacting your health. If you overtrain/stress your body without fail, it will impact your health.

After that I let nature have its way.

[PaMtbRider]

My goal for this year has been to improve my diet by avoiding processed foods and eating as many whole foods as possible. I am now eating nuts or fruits when I need a snack as opposed to little debbie snack cakes. I am not giving up alcohol, but am drinking less. The one area where I have read a lot of discrepancy is milk products. Several of the books I've read recommend raw, unpasteurized, whole milk products. I have been drinking 1% milk and thought that was what most people recommend. Any thoughts?

[zap]

Milk-some believe people shouldn't be drinking cows milk no matter what. Goats milk is better but ummmmmmm, an acquired taste.

[rugbysecondrow]

My goal for this year has been to improve my diet by avoiding processed foods and eating as many whole foods as possible. I am now eating nuts or fruits when I need a snack as opposed to little debbie snack cakes. I am not giving up alcohol, but am drinking less. The one area where I have read a lot of discrepancy is milk products. Several of the books I've read recommend raw, unpasteurized, whole milk products. I have been drinking 1% milk and thought that was what most people recommend. Any thoughts?


I started looking into these folks Dan, they might deliver in your area as well.

http://virginiasmc.deliverybizpro.com/home.php

http://www.southmountainveggies.com/home.php

[Louis]

However, for me to get very lean <10% BF I weigh my food and then it does not matter you will lose weight with carbohydrates in the diet.

When you do this are you hungry when you go to bed at night?

If I really push myself on the "eat healthy, but eat less" side of things (say in the winter, when I'm not exercising a lot, and therefore not burning as many calories) an inevitable side effect is that I have to go to bed hungry.

[Kontact]

My grandmother is 91 and takes no special medications. She likes pork chops and meatloaf. She has also always eaten a lot of fresh fruit and vegetables and kept active.

I suspect that many of these pet dietary theories only make sense because they require an initial criteria - bad diet, no exercise - to become reality. There are people on earth that eat nothing but reindeer or seal blubber and still live to fairly old ages, but they aren't beer guzzling cubicle jockeys.


If it is processed, don't eat it (much). If it is tasty, don't eat it often. If the food is almost work to eat, try to fill up on it. Take the stairs, ride your bike, run with your kids instead of watching them. Spend the majority of your waking hours on your feet, not butt. I doubt most people manage to adhere to this, which is a lot easier than trying to outmaneuver your own metabolism with Chinese wisdom.

[SEABREEZE]

Discover the blue zones of the world, where most live beyond 100 and are active.

See what there diets and life style consist of.

Keep out all preservatives and sugar found in many foods, begin to eat whole live foods..

Stress and aggrivation is our worst enemy...

Many are aware of this site, but for the one's who are not, they will have you eating properly...
http://www.westonaprice.org/

Happy Heathy Eating

[SEABREEZE]

FYI, that most may not be aware of...

The Olive Oil Scandal
By Raymond Francis

For more than a decade I have advised people to substitute olive oil for the regular oils available in the supermarket. Good advice. But here's the problem: trying to find real olive oil is like looking for a needle in a haystack. Olive oil has been part of the human diet for more than 5000 years. These millennia of human experience plus modem research indicate that olive oil is beneficial to health and that we can safely include it in our diet. In fact, olive oil has been singled out as contributing to the health of Greek centenarians. But, to get the same health effects as the Greek centenarians, the oil has to be made the way they made it. The problem is most of the olive oil on the market does not duplicate what our ancestors were eating, and people are not getting what they think they are buying. Almost all olive oil is processed in ways that result in the loss of nutrients which are essential to health.

Olive oil is almost unique among oils in that it can be consumed in the crude form without refining. This has the effect of conserving all its vitamins, essential fatty acids, and other nutrients. Because it contains all these nutrients, including powerful antioxidants, real extra virgin olive oil is beneficial to health and protects us from damage by free radical oxidation. Cell membranes contain fatty acids that are highly susceptible to free radical damage. This damage produces lipid peroxides that can kill the cell. Real olive oil contains polyphenols, vitamin E, and other natural antioxidants that prevent this damage.

Numerous studies show that olive oil reduces cholesterol, lowers blood pressure, inhibits platelet aggregation, and lowers the incidence of breast cancer. Because it is so rich in antioxidants, olive oil appears to dramatically reduce the oxidation of LDL cholesterol, thereby preventing heart disease. These same antioxidants also add to the stability, shelf life, and flavor of the oil.

Historically, high quality olive oil, rich in antioxidants, was easy to obtain, but not any more. Today, high quality oil is available only in relatively small quantities, usually from family owned farms, where the oils are produced in ways similar to how the Greeks and Romans made theirs. On these farms, olives are picked by hand so as not to damage the skin or pulp. They are transported in well aerated containers and milled within 48 hours of harvesting. Before milling, leaves and twigs are removed, the olives washed and dried, and then stone pressed the same way as it was done in antiquity. The resulting olive paste was then pressed in a hydraulic press without the use of heat, hot water, or solvents. The oil is left unfiltered as filtering removes many nutrients. The first pressing produces the best "extra virgin" oil.

The problem with most of today's olive oil is that it is rarely produced in the old way, which is more time consuming and expensive. Due to the increasing demand for olive oil, the trend has been to reduce production costs by moving toward more automation and concentration of production in ever larger installations. These modem factories extract more oil more cheaply, but their processing methods substantially reduce the nutritional quality of the oil.

To reduce costs, olives are machine harvested along with leaves and twigs. Olives that have dropped on the ground, which can be said to contain bad oil, are often mixed with the good ones. They are shipped in all kinds of containers, many of which are poorly ventilated, and heaped in large piles where the olives are stored for too long and often become moldy. The oil is then extracted in a continuous centrifuge where hot water is used to help separate out the oil.

Antioxidant polyphenols are soluble in water and are washed away in this process, thereby lowering the shelf life and the nutritional quality of the oil. Italy alone produces 800,000 cubic meters of waste water per year from this process. Because substantial amounts of antioxidants are washed away, factory produced olive oils have a short shelf life of only months, whereas real olive oil lasts for two to three years. Factory produced olive oil is filtered and looks clear. Real olive oil is not filtered and looks cloudy.

Most people think that by purchasing "extra virgin" olive oil they are getting a high quality oil.

Unfortunately, in most cases, this is not true. It's more complex than that. A label reading extra virgin is no guarantee of quality. For one thing, nowhere does it say that extra virgin olive oil has to be made 100% from olives. An major criterion for grading olive oil is its level of acidity. Extra virgin oil should have a free oleic acid acidity of no more than one percent, whereas ordinary virgin olive oil can have an acidity of up to 3.3 percent.

Lower quality oils can be refined to bring the acidity down so they can be labeled as extra virgin. But now the oil has been refined, and that's not what you want. That's why being labeled extra virgin is no guarantee of getting high quality oil, which has not been processed in ways that reduce its nutritional value. To complicate matters even more, the term "extra virgin" has no official meaning in the United States. The U.S. is not a member of the International Olive Oil Council. So, olive oil sold here can be labeled extra virgin without meeting the accepted international standards.

Another reason why you can't trust extra virgin olive oil is exemplified by a problem that manifested last year, and may turn out to be the biggest food fraud of the 20th Century. Despite the fact that details of this scandal have been published in Merum, a Swiss-German magazine, and in Italian journals such as Agra Trade, and the newspaper Gazzetta del Mezzogiorno, this information has been successfully suppressed and is known to only a handful. Investigators are gathering evidence indicating that the biggest olive oil brands in Italy have for years been systematically diluting their extra virgin olive oil with cheap, highly-refined hazelnut oil imported from Turkey. International arrest warrants have been issued and so far documents indicate that at least ten thousand tons of hazelnut oil are involved. As much as 20% hazelnut oil can be added to olive oil and still be undetectable to the consumer. In fact olive oil labeled "Italian" often comes from Turkey, Tunisia, Morocco, Spain, and Greece. Considering what has happened in Europe, where there are strict regulations, imagine what can happen in California where there are no regulations. Apparently, more oil is "produced" in California than there are olives available. The truth is, most of the extra virgin olive oil on the market does not supply all the nutritional value and health giving properties that we have a right to expect from olive oil.

This is scary stuff when you consider how extremely important oil is to human health. Our modem chronic disease problems are the result of radically changing, in a short period of time, the fundamental parameters of human existence, namely: diet, environment, and behavior. One of the most fundamental changes in our diet has been the kind and the amount of fats and oils that we consume. For example, the consumption of hydrogenated oils has proved to be a disaster for human health. Hydrogenated oils have been implicated in both our cancer and heart disease epidemics. In fact, all modem processed oils are injurious to human health. To reverse our pandemic of chronic disease, we have to return to eating a more traditional diet, and high quality olive oil can safely be included in that diet. It's not so much that olive oil should be added to the diet as much as healthy, real olive oil should be used to replace the unhealthy, processed oils now being consumed.

How does one ensure that they are eating the most healthful oil? Find an extra virgin olive oil that is cold pressed, unfiltered, and looks cloudy. The oil should be packaged in dark glass bottles to protect it from the damaging effects of light. Real olive oil is still made in small estate bottled settings. The challenge is to find one that does it! all right.

After selecting the oil, it has to be stored properly. When properly stored, real extra virgin olive oil can last two to three years. Because of processing, most of the extra virgin oil on the market has a shelf life of only a few months. A good rule of thumb is to purchase oil in small bottles and consume it within a year of purchase; this will also ensure getting the best flavor. Store the oil away from both heat and light.

Storing in a dark place is important because exposure to light will start a chain reaction that will destroy the oil a thousand times faster than oxygen. During storage, olive oil oxidizes and undergoes a slow, continuous, and irreversible deterioration until it becomes inedible.

The bottom line is that modem, factory- produced olive oil has been stripped of its health enhancing nutrients, and the task of selecting a high quality oil has been made very difficult.The olives are grown without pesticides.

They are hand picked from the trees, carefully washed and dried, and milled with a stone wheel within 48 hours of harvesting. It is pressed in a hydraulic press, collected in stainless steel vats, decanted, and bottled.

This first cold pressed oil is the real stuff and retains all the natural flavor and goodness

Raymond Francis is an M. L T.-trained scientist and an internationally recognized leader in the emerging field of optimal health maintenance.

[SEABREEZE]

Milk-some believe people shouldn't be drinking cows milk no matter what. Goats milk is better but ummmmmmm, an acquired taste.

Doesn't have to be, if the farmer knows what they are doing..

[Louis]

Raymond Francis is an M. L T.-trained scientist and an internationally recognized leader in the emerging field of optimal health maintenance.

So what olive oil brand is he selling? ;)

[SEABREEZE]

So what olive oil brand is he selling? ;)

He doesn't sell olive oil that I am aware of.

[stephenmarklay]

It depends on the situation. If I need to lose a lot of weight fast I will go to about 11kcal/lbs. I don't go to bed hungry as I am good about choosing the right foods (to keep sugar stable) and not letting myself get hungry. I do get a little low energy and need to splurge once a week. But that only helps progress.

However, I can eat about 13kcal/lbs and lose slowly without low energy or even hunger.

These are about 2000kcal and 2400kcal respectively. If I were you and just want to get in the right direction I would drop about 250kcal a day from normal eating that maintains your weight.

When you do this are you hungry when you go to bed at night?

If I really push myself on the "eat healthy, but eat less" side of things (say in the winter, when I'm not exercising a lot, and therefore not burning as many calories) an inevitable side effect is that I have to go to bed hungry.

[stephenmarklay]

Milk-some believe people shouldn't be drinking cows milk no matter what. Goats milk is better but ummmmmmm, an acquired taste.

I can only do goat milk as milk proteins make my whole body hurt. Allergy I guess. I wish I could as goat products are always more $.

[SEABREEZE]

I can only do goat milk as milk proteins make my whole body hurt. Allergy I guess. I wish I could as goat products are always more $.


Many are lacto intolerant, but are able to use goat dairy.. yes goat dairy is more expensive due to the limited amount they produce vs cow...

I have heard many who are lacto intolerant, leave a poured glass out all day on the counter, and are able to tolerate it... doesn't work for everyone, but others swear by it..

[stephenmarklay]

Many are lacto intolerant, but are able to use goat dairy.. yes goat dairy is more expensive due to the limited amount they produce vs cow...

I have heard many who are lacto intolerant, leave a poured glass out all day on the counter, and are able to tolerate it... doesn't work for everyone, but others swear by it..

For me its not the lactose. I don't have any digestion problem with cow milk or products but after a day or two I can barely bend over to tie my shoes. Its the casein protein as I can use whey protein with zero problem.

[Jaq]

So what olive oil brand is he selling? ;)

He's selling his own brand of olive oil, (http://beyondhealth.com/oliveoil-bh.asp) through his very own website.

Further, his degree from MIT was in Civil Engineering in 1961.

He may be legit, he may be a quack. However, when I read passages that suggest the existence of international conspiracy theory involving olive oil production in which "international arrest warrants" have been issued, I tend to get a little skeptical. When the same person making those claims also happens to sell his own brand for 3 times the going rate (most olive oil's about 7 bucks for 500ml) my b.s. detector tends to go "ping."

Still, if the beat of his drum is music to someone's ears, it's none of my beeswax.

[SEABREEZE]

A nice healthy quenching drink to take along on a ride. Juice 2/3 cukes, whey from cheese making process, raw unheated honey, and squeeze a half/whole lemon , depending how lemony you like it.

Whey is packed with minerals and protein.

Whey is also good to add to smoothies..

[Louis]

I get gout pains if I add anything more than a small amount of whey protein to my diet. It must be somewhat hereditary, because my father also gets it.

[SEABREEZE]

He's selling his own brand of olive oil, (http://beyondhealth.com/oliveoil-bh.asp) through his very own website.

Further, his degree from MIT was in Civil Engineering in 1961.

He may be legit, he may be a quack. However, when I read passages that suggest the existence of international conspiracy theory involving olive oil production in which "international arrest warrants" have been issued, I tend to get a little skeptical. When the same person making those claims also happens to sell his own brand for 3 times the going rate (most olive oil's about 7 bucks for 500ml) my b.s. detector tends to go "ping."

Still, if the beat of his drum is music to someone's ears, it's none of my beeswax.


My research shows many mediterranian villages have a central stone grinder and cold press to get pure olive oil for the locals who have small olive groves on there property.. I am sure if you contact the proper OO association in any given Med country, they could supply a list of importers that have the type of OO he is describing thats available here in the US.

I think the international conspiracy theory involving olive oil production is in regards to those claiming 100% OO, when other oils are added which dilutes it. Not everyone plays fair, so its important to know your source.

***EDIT*** Wasnt aware he sold it, but he charges 21.95 for 16.9 oz

Found another company selling it for

500ml $15.00 = 16.90701127945 oz
1000ml $28.00 =33.8140225589 oz

Hardly 3 times as you claim.
It may be true to the diluted forms of OO that other oils are added...

[SEABREEZE]

I get gout pains if I add anything more than a small amount of whey protein to my diet. It must be somewhat hereditary, because my father also gets it.


Pure speculation, but it may be your kidneys have problems processing the protein of the whey.

***edit*** another thought, are you referring to the processed powder form that you find in health stores primarly for body builders, as we are talking about a liquid by product that occurs from cheese making. Its natural form. Cheese is made from milk.

[Louis]

My solution is to avoid rich foods (good to do, whether they cause gout or not) and all is well. I've been meaning to have my blood uric acid level measured, but that's not very high on my priority list.

[Jaq]

***EDIT*** Wasnt aware he sold it, but he charges 21.95 for 16.9 oz

Found another company selling it for

500ml $15.00 = 16.90701127945 oz
1000ml $28.00 =33.8140225589 oz

Hardly 3 times as you claim.
It may be true to the diluted forms of OO that other oils are added...

Beyond Health dot com is his website, and sells his oil for 22 dollars a bottle. Filippo Berio Extra Virgin Olive oil, which claims to be 100% pure, costs ~7 bucks a bottle (500ml). Most other olive oils available in the supermarket claim purity or cold pressing or organic sourcing, etc., and are also priced at about 7 bucks/500ml.

Other sites that sell Beyond Health Olive Oil for ~15 bucks/500ml are still selling his olive oil for twice the going rate.

I know nothing about his claims as to the efficacy of olive oil. I do know, however, that he is implying a causal relationship between olive oil consumption and longer-than-normal lifespans among the Greeks. He also alleges conspiracies and "International Arrest Warrants" (whatever those are), adding a slight level of fear-mongering/anxiety to the article, which originally appeared as a newsletter from the Beyond Health website, the same website which just so happens to sell his olive oil in dark glass bottles.

That's hucksterism, as old as the dirt in Ulysses' orchards.

[zap]

Doesn't have to be, if the farmer knows what they are doing..

From what I understand, cows milk (no matter how pure, free of hormones, etc.) compromises every man's immune system. To what degree depends on the individual.

[SEABREEZE]

Beyond Health dot com is his website, and sells his oil for 22 dollars a bottle. Filippo Berio Extra Virgin Olive oil, which claims to be 100% pure, costs ~7 bucks a bottle (500ml). Most other olive oils available in the supermarket claim purity or cold pressing or organic sourcing, etc., and are also priced at about 7 bucks/500ml.

Other sites that sell Beyond Health Olive Oil for ~15 bucks/500ml are still selling his olive oil for twice the going rate.

I know nothing about his claims as to the efficacy of olive oil. I do know, however, that he is implying a causal relationship between olive oil consumption and longer-than-normal lifespans among the Greeks. He also alleges conspiracies and "International Arrest Warrants" (whatever those are), adding a slight level of fear-mongering/anxiety to the article, which originally appeared as a newsletter from the Beyond Health website, the same website which just so happens to sell his olive oil in dark glass bottles.

That's hucksterism, as old as the dirt in Ulysses' orchards.

Rather than comment , buy both varities. See and taste the difference for yoursef, I assure you there is a signigant difference. if you you care to, if you dont, then thats your decision and its all good to...

When your finished thinking about my suggestion, check out the island of Crete, its a blue zone, where folks live beyond 100 and active. A important part of there diet is to have lots of OO that Raymond Frances talks about, Its not Filippo Berio Extra Virgin OO. I'm very familiar Filippo Berio, as my family used it, but they were not aware of real whole live olive oil.

If Frances is capitalizing on the OO , this is America, find a source that offers it for less. I bet you could buy it fairly reasonable in various Med countries.