View Full Version : Recommend a hubset for me
astaft
01-28-2012, 07:42 PM
I am going to be building a new set of wheels for the road and am looking for advice on what hubset to buy. It will be a standard set of campy 10 compatible 32 holes with open pro rims. The last wheelset I built was with the 2006? Campy record hubs, which I love. Are the new Record black hubs any good? Any reason to go to DT or the new Chris King R45? I don't care about weight.
thanks
Andrew
AngryScientist
01-28-2012, 07:45 PM
Record hubs are fantastic and reasonably priced, use them without hesitation. Also consider dt465 rims over open pros IMO
thegunner
01-28-2012, 07:48 PM
I am going to be building a new set of wheels for the road and am looking for advice on what hubset to buy. It will be a standard set of campy 10 compatible 32 holes with open pro rims. The last wheelset I built was with the 2006? Campy record hubs, which I love. Are the new Record black hubs any good? Any reason to go to DT or the new Chris King R45? I don't care about weight.
thanks
Andrew
to be honest, record hubs, dt240s, ck45s are all tremendous hubs and i don't think you can go any way (might as well throw in white industries if you're on 10s only) - i think it really comes down to aesthetics and what you like best here. BUT if you liked your old campy record hubs, the new ones are likely no worse given their reputation...
sokyroadie
01-28-2012, 07:53 PM
(might as well throw in white industries if you're on 10s only)
FYI - White Industries H3 rear hub is 11s compatible.
Jeff
bicycletricycle
01-28-2012, 08:19 PM
campy record hubs are really great, you cant go wrong with them. cheaper and in my opinion nicer than dt and ck, i like whites a lot but if 32 hole 130mm spacing is required than campy all the way.
Bob Ross
01-28-2012, 08:24 PM
I have DTs on two of my wheelsets and, at least as much as any human could possibly love a hub, I'd say it's fair to say I love these.
67-59
01-28-2012, 09:31 PM
I have a set of wheels with Record hubs and a set with DT240s, and I very much prefer the Record. Nothing really wrong with the others, but if you've enjoyed Record, I'd stick with them.
oldpotatoe
01-29-2012, 07:45 AM
I am going to be building a new set of wheels for the road and am looking for advice on what hubset to buy. It will be a standard set of campy 10 compatible 32 holes with open pro rims. The last wheelset I built was with the 2006? Campy record hubs, which I love. Are the new Record black hubs any good? Any reason to go to DT or the new Chris King R45? I don't care about weight.
thanks
Andrew
Black Record hub innards the same as the silver ones with a better axle and one piece freehub(no FH splitting). DT 350 are very nice as well. DT 240 are getting really expensive, same innards as the 350, wee less weight, lotsa $.
I personally think in this era of really nice and pretty simple hubs, CK are overly complicated and expensive for no real durability, or performance, reason. They do come in colors tho.
Hard to beat a set of wheels with Record hubs, IMHO. I build a lot of them.
As Angry mentioned, DT 465 are far better rims in terms of initial quality and longevity than OpenPros, Similar $, silver and black and you could use a DT 415 on the front. I have build probably 100 or so of these both w/o any issue or problem. Best clincher rims made, IMHO.
67-59
01-29-2012, 12:12 PM
As Angry mentioned, DT 465 are far better rims in terms of initial quality and longevity than OpenPros, Similar $, silver and black and you could use a DT 415 on the front. I have build probably 100 or so of these both w/o any issue or problem. Best clincher rims made, IMHO.
I am not familiar with many of the DT rims, but your comparison of DT 465 with Open Pros surprises me...especially the comment about better longevity. My first set of Open Pros lasted well over 20,000 miles before I had to replace them because a small crack appeared in the rear. I replaced them with DT rims (I think they were RR1.1, which I believe were the predecessor of the 465?), which were built by a very reputable builder...and cracked after about 1,000 miles. Decided to go back to Open Pros, and have had no issues for 5,000 miles and counting.
Not saying you're wrong, as I know my sample size is small and you have a ton of experience, but like I said, your statement was very surprising to me.
fourflys
01-29-2012, 12:33 PM
I replaced them with DT rims (I think they were RR1.1, which I believe were the predecessor of the 465?), which were built by a very reputable builder...and cracked after about 1,000 miles. Decided to go back to Open Pros, and have had no issues for 5,000 miles and counting.
I have a set of wheels with DT240s hubs/RR 1.1 rims and they are held great, even in cross racing... I also have a set of open pro/ultegra wheels and they are great wheels as well, just don't ride as well as the DT set and weigh a bit more...
Grant McLean
01-29-2012, 01:01 PM
not what you asked... but assuming you want a
relatively conventional looking traditional wheelset,
personally, i'd buy the Neutron wheels before 32 hole record
hubs with open pro rims. They are better wheels,
rear is offset to equalize spoke tension, this can be a
major issue with campagnolo rear wheels.
Pricing on complete campag wheels from UK mail
order places is very competitive with having handbuilts
made for you.
g
The difference of opinions based on personal experience can be down to manufacturing and 'batches' (Mavic ceramic rims being a notorious example of batch quality variability). I like CK hubs. They do the job I need doing, spare seal kits and service tools are readily available. I don't like alu cassette bodies. Either stainless steel or titanium are better.
oldpotatoe
01-29-2012, 01:20 PM
I am not familiar with many of the DT rims, but your comparison of DT 465 with Open Pros surprises me...especially the comment about better longevity. My first set of Open Pros lasted well over 20,000 miles before I had to replace them because a small crack appeared in the rear. I replaced them with DT rims (I think they were RR1.1, which I believe were the predecessor of the 465?), which were built by a very reputable builder...and cracked after about 1,000 miles. Decided to go back to Open Pros, and have had no issues for 5,000 miles and counting.
Not saying you're wrong, as I know my sample size is small and you have a ton of experience, but like I said, your statement was very surprising to me.
Were the RFR 1.1 double or single eyelet?
I can only speak from my experience from building 2000 or so OpePros and now about 500 or 465/415. I see cracks around eyelets, noisy wedge, noisy eyelets on OpenPros(problems Mavic has known about for over a decade)
plus DT build faster, easier, stay true longer. I suspect you 'may' have had single eyelet and that 'reputable builder' used too much tension.
Mavic OpenPor are a distant 3rd on my perferred rim list..DT, Velocity............................
Mavic OpePro
PS, I don't mind CXP-33-those work well.
oldpotatoe
01-29-2012, 01:31 PM
not what you asked... but assuming you want a
relatively conventional looking traditional wheelset,
personally, i'd buy the Neutron wheels before 32 hole record
hubs with open pro rims. They are better wheels,
rear is offset to equalize spoke tension, this can be a
major issue with campagnolo rear wheels.
Pricing on complete campag wheels from UK mail
order places is very competitive with having handbuilts
made for you.
g
There is no 'major issue' with the flange placement on Campagnolo hubs and non offset rims. Sorry, there isn't. I have built thousands of rear wheels with Campagnolo hubs, non offset rims, and I don't see these coming back to me because of any 'major issue' with Campagnolo hubs. I just don't.
PLUS Nuetrons are about $800 in the UK, the same as Record/DT(some places less) BUT wack a rim(if you can find one) and that's about $150. Spoke kits, from and rear, 6 spokes are $30, if you can find them. And in 3 years when the 'next' wheel is around and Campagnolo no longer supports that wheel with spokes and a rim(all rims wear out), those $300 hubs will be $300 pen holders. Try to find a spoke or rim for a Proton or Electron or Helium(F) or ROVAL OR OLDER SHAMAL or.......................
I'll stick with handbuilts in general, and Campagnolo hubs specifically, thanks..there simply is no 'issue' with them and haven't been since they came out in 1990.
Grant McLean
01-29-2012, 01:38 PM
There is no 'major issue' with the flange placement on Campagnolo hubs and non offset rims. Sorry, there isn't. I have built thousands of rear wheels with Campagnolo hubs, non offset rims, and I don't see these coming back to me because of any 'major issue' with Campagnolo hubs. I just don't.
Re-read my post, you aren't characterizing
accurately what i said.
I said there is a major issue with the spoke
tension differential between the sides,
Are you saying there is equal spoke
tension between left and right?
This issue can be a real problem:
either for some it's lateral flex,
for others it could be cracking eyelets
on the drive side. These are pretty
well documented. (google 'cracked mavic
reflex' - there are plenty of campag hub
rear wheels out there.
I'm not saying they explode into flames.
It's funny when crusty old wheel builders
defend poor designs, (i know, i am one)
but the flange spacing on campag hubs is
terrible geometry, there are better solutions
to making a stiffer and stronger wheel.
Of course, virtually any wheel is rideable.
Question was... what to spend your money on.
I was talking about the Standard Neutrons,
not the ultras. They aren't in the 2012 line up,
which might make it difficult to find them,
or maybe they can be found for a deal.
I certainly got severals pals on neutrons
last season for about $500.
Sorry to burst people's bubbles, but campag
wheels are handbuilt too, the 32 hole versions
just use inferior flange, spoke and rim designs.
g
Umpteenth vote for Campy hubs & RR465 rims. This was what I was going to build until I decided to stay with tubulars for now & went with reflexes.
You don't mention what you plan to do with the rims - if they're racing, racing/training, training, club-ride show-offs, etc.
For everyday training/commuting, the DT540s seem like great wheels for soaking up so-so roads. Some of the Velocity clinchers like the A23s seem really great, too, especially for the very reasonable prices they command.
Grant McLean
01-29-2012, 01:49 PM
Umpteenth vote for Campy hubs & RR465 rims. This was what I was going to build until I decided to stay with tubulars for now & went with reflexes.
Careful with the drive side spoke tension, the reflex rim has a reputation
with some for cracking due to the overloading caused by the need to
dish the wheel and keep the non-drive side tension to being too low.
(unless oldpotatoe builds your wheels, then there is no issue at all)
g
Kontact
01-29-2012, 01:59 PM
I honestly don't understand using $500 hubs to build a basic 32 hole wheelset. Less expensive hubs are just as durable and smooth, and weight is clearly not a big issue with a conservative wheelset. So another vote for Campy Record, though if you came across an older NOS Campy hubset for less, consider that.
If this was a Shimano wheelset, I'd recommend Tiagra hubs for the same reasons.
There is no 'major issue' with the flange placement on Campagnolo hubs and non offset rims. Sorry, there isn't. I have built thousands of rear wheels with Campagnolo hubs, non offset rims, and I don't see these coming back to me because of any 'major issue' with Campagnolo hubs. I just don't.
PLUS Nuetrons are about $800 in the UK, the same as Record/DT(some places less) BUT wack a rim(if you can find one) and that's about $150. Spoke kits, from and rear, 6 spokes are $30, if you can find them. And in 3 years when the 'next' wheel is around and Campagnolo no longer supports that wheel with spokes and a rim(all rims wear out), those $300 hubs will be $300 pen holders. Try to find a spoke or rim for a Proton or Electron or Helium(F) or ROVAL OR OLDER SHAMAL or.......................
I'll stick with handbuilts in general, and Campagnolo hubs specifically, thanks..there simply is no 'issue' with them and haven't been since they came out in 1990.
Do you have experience of Ambrosio rims? Nemesis? Any good?
thinpin
01-29-2012, 03:07 PM
i'd buy the Neutron wheels before 32 hole record
hubs with open pro rims. They are better wheels,
rear is offset to equalize spoke tension, this can be a
major issue with campagnolo rear wheels
g
Try getting a tyre back on a campagnolo wheel (scirocco, proton, neutron) by the road side on a cold day. Strewth!
ergott
01-29-2012, 03:24 PM
I am going to be building a new set of wheels for the road and am looking for advice on what hubset to buy. It will be a standard set of campy 10 compatible 32 holes with open pro rims. The last wheelset I built was with the 2006? Campy record hubs, which I love. Are the new Record black hubs any good? Any reason to go to DT or the new Chris King R45? I don't care about weight.
thanks
Andrew
I'll ask the million dollar question. Do you still have the Record hubs? If available, just rebuild them. It's not clear if you are replacing your set or you need another one.
If you need new and you don't care about weight, the Veloce hubs are fine. They aren't fancy, but for a basic 32/3X set of wheels they do the job.
Grant McLean
01-29-2012, 03:43 PM
Try getting a tyre back on a campagnolo wheel (scirocco, proton, neutron) by the road side on a cold day. Strewth!
which tires? they aren't all the same.
I use Vittoria Corsa Cx and can take them off easily without levers.
A thin rim strip is essential too.
-g
sg8357
01-29-2012, 04:20 PM
XTR hubs with Aerohead O/C rims on my Campy equipped bike,
jtek to make it work. 200lb rider who likes cone wrenches.
stephenmarklay
01-29-2012, 04:44 PM
If a guy was riding Shimano would DA be the way to go? I was thinking the same questions for the HEDs I want to run.
oldpotatoe
01-29-2012, 04:56 PM
Do you have experience of Ambrosio rims? Nemesis? Any good?
Built some, nice rims, better than mavic also, IMHO.
oldpotatoe
01-29-2012, 04:59 PM
If a guy was riding Shimano would DA be the way to go? I was thinking the same questions for the HEDs I want to run.
They are expensive, ti freehub, aluminum axle. I think 6700 and 5700 are great hubs. I would recommend something other than Record if Campagnolo made Centaur, Chorus hubs but alas, they don't. Record are great, just expensive and lonely in the Campagnolo hub lineup.
oldpotatoe
01-29-2012, 05:04 PM
Careful with the drive side spoke tension, the reflex rim has a reputation
with some for cracking due to the overloading caused by the need to
dish the wheel and keep the non-drive side tension to being too low.
(unless oldpotatoe builds your wheels, then there is no issue at all)
g
Righto Grant, I could say something pithy about some who build wheels built on Record hubs and rim cracking but I won't, cuz I don't see it nor do I see spokes getting loose or breaking on the NDS with Record hubs and non offset rims. I'm not the only person successfully building with these hubs, the design has been around for over 2 decades.
I don't like Reflex rims for other reasons, I DO like Aerohead Escape, Ambrosio and Velocity Major Toms. They don't crack or see loose spokes either.
Do you have experience of Ambrosio rims? Nemesis? Any good?
Nemesis are great olde skool box rims. I have 2 wheelsets built with them, and they have both stayed true through the hellish potholes and crappy winter (and summer) pavement around where I live. They aren't light, but they are shallow and comfy and look good on traditional metal bikes. I have some reflex wheels too, but they feel kinda 'cheap' and less solid vs the Nemesis.
Kontact
01-29-2012, 05:22 PM
If a guy was riding Shimano would DA be the way to go? I was thinking the same questions for the HEDs I want to run.
You were going to build HED rims with 32 spokes each? Or were you going to build a light wheelset?
I personally think in this era of really nice and pretty simple hubs, CK are overly complicated and expensive for no real durability, or performance, reason. They do come in colors tho.
I love CK headsets, and because of this I've been tempted on several occasions to have a pair wheels built with CK hubs. But then I go to their website and I see the cut-away picture of their hub and the special tools and grease injectors and whatever and I change my mind. They are pretty, but seem wicked finicky for no real performance reason. What is the appeal? Just the bling (hate that word) factor?
edward12
01-29-2012, 05:38 PM
I love CK headsets, and because of this I've been tempted on several occasions to have a pair wheels built with CK hubs. But then I go to their website and I see the cut-away picture of their hub and the special tools and grease injectors and whatever and I change my mind. They are pretty, but seem wicked finicky for no real performance reason. What is the appeal? Just the bling (hate that word) factor?
Roger that. I have a Cielo Sportif with CK headset and bb. I'm building a set of wheels with DT 465 rims and although I greatly covet the CK Classic hubs (SERIOUS "bling" factor, here), I just can't justify the price. Which is why I'm building the wheels with Ultegra hubs instead...that shoud save about $350 on the build.
ergott
01-29-2012, 07:07 PM
Record are great, just expensive and lonely in the Campagnolo hub lineup.
I haven't been keeping up. :o They dropped Veloce hubs.
White Industries hubs are a good set of hubs that will last a long time. They are easy to service as well.
tiretrax
01-29-2012, 11:07 PM
I had some record/OP's that were fantastic. I rode them for thousands of miles. My friend that purchased my bike had them retensioned and loves them, too.
I have a pair of White Industry hubs with Velocity Aerohead rims. They are also great, although the hub is a little heavier than I would like.
bicycletricycle
01-29-2012, 11:40 PM
the amount of dish required for the current crop of campagnolo 10/11 speed hubs is pretty extreme. the drive side flange is about 2 millimeters in board of a 8/9/10 shimano compatible hubs. This does make for a rather large difference in tension between the drive and non drive spokes and is most likely the end of the line for 130mm spaced drivetrains.
however,
this is true for any brand of campagnolo compatible hubs and if one is going to build up a nice set of easily repairable and serviceable traditional 32 hole wheels than record hubs are a great way to go.
velocity aeroheads come in an offset spoke option which can help with the excessive dish.
open pros may have some problems here and there but they work great for lots of people and are not a bad choice.
also, campy record hubs come with really bad ass skewers, dt skewers suck, CK and WI don't make skewers.
king hubs are really complicated, they work well but it just seems a little silly when you take them apart. what were they trying to prove? They do work well for lots of people so i guess you cant say that they are bad but i did have a few of broken axles and stretched hub shells (bearings falling out) but that kind of stuff can happen be said about just about any one of these hubs.
I warrantied a ton of split hub shells on older 240 rear hubs.
I have not had to do much repair work on white industries hubs but they are not as popular so the comparison is not really fair. I have seen a blown apart flange on one of their high flange front tandem hubs (that they dont make anymore)
neutrons are fantastic wheels
however
they are completely unrideable with one broken spoke, a pain to true because you have to take the tire off to do so and they require expensive parts to maintain which will likely not be available locally and possibly not at all in the future.
oldpotatoe
01-30-2012, 07:29 AM
I haven't been keeping up. :o They dropped Veloce hubs.
White Industries hubs are a good set of hubs that will last a long time. They are easy to service as well.
They morphed into Centaur for about a year then got dropped in about 2007/8. About when Campagnolo started making only Record, 32h omly, too bad.
They, like mavic, wants ya to buy their wheels, not their hubs.
stephenmarklay
01-30-2012, 07:42 AM
You were going to build HED rims with 32 spokes each? Or were you going to build a light wheelset?
I will be doing 32 based on comments on other threads. I would love a light wheels set but they won't love my 180lb butt.
But I still can save some weight with a hub and still keep the spoke count up.
If I wanted to be slow I could go with 36h since I have some nice Mavic 500 hubs to use.
So how do factory built rims like what Hed puts out or even the Velocity A23 remain durable (speculation) with so few spokes?
ergott
01-30-2012, 07:49 AM
I will be doing 32 based on comments on other threads. I would love a light wheels set but they won't love my 180lb butt.
But I still can save some weight with a hub and still keep the spoke count up.
If I wanted to be slow I could go with 36h since I have some nice Mavic 500 hubs to use.
So how do factory built rims like what Hed puts out or even the Velocity A23 remain durable (speculation) with so few spokes?
A set of A23/White Industries wheels with a 24/28 spoke count will be durable for you if built well. That's not usually considered a budget breaker set of wheels.
oldpotatoe
01-30-2012, 08:01 AM
I will be doing 32 based on comments on other threads. I would love a light wheels set but they won't love my 180lb butt.
But I still can save some weight with a hub and still keep the spoke count up.
If I wanted to be slow I could go with 36h since I have some nice Mavic 500 hubs to use.
So how do factory built rims like what Hed puts out or even the Velocity A23 remain durable (speculation) with so few spokes?
Often, with 'bigger' riders, they aren't. Light rims, thin spokes, fewer spokes, and no matter how 'good' the build is, they may not be as reliable as a 32/32...same rims and hubs, for bigger riders or smaller riders that ride 'heavy'.
Best way to make a light wheelset is light hub, light rim and adequate number of spokes. For some 'factory' wheels, reduce the spoke count by 200 grams but then add 300 grams to the rim to make it reliable. BUT light rim and not enough spokes=lack of reliability.
Reducing the wheelset weight by say 300 grams(8-12 less spokes, same rim and hub), on a 89,000 gram 'package', when the wheel may not be reliable, makes little sense, IMHO.
ergott
01-30-2012, 08:04 AM
the amount of dish required for the current crop of campagnolo 10/11 speed hubs is pretty extreme. the drive side flange is about 2 millimeters in board of a 8/9/10 shimano compatible hubs.
For comparison sake:
DS flange Alchemy Campagnolo - 18mm
DS flange Campagnolo - 16.4mm
DS flange DT Shimano or Campagnolo - 16.8mm
DS flange White Industries Campagnolo - 16.2mm
DS flange White Industries Shimano - 18.3mm
DS flange Shimano - 18.8mm
DS flange Alchemy Shimano - 19.6mm
I mention this because Jeremy over at Alchemy is the only hub designer I know of that attempts to maximize DS spacing. With some companies it's an afterthought at best. His Campagnolo model has DS spacing that is comparable or better than some of the "better" designed hubs out there for Shimano which allows for better spacing (for now).
When Shimano goes to 11 speed, the conversation changes and they will have to increase the width of the freehub body to accommodate. Then their spacing will be very similar to Campagnolo. A company like DT probably won't have to do anything because they DS spacing already leaves enough room for the possibility of Shimano 11. Other companies will just have to use the spacing of their Campagnolo design (White Industries, Tune, Alchemy, etc.).
astaft
01-30-2012, 08:34 AM
I just found a set of the 2000-2006 Record silver hubs that were slightly used. I am probably going to put in new bearings and re-grease. Anything I should be aware of? I was just going to pop some new 5/32" wheels manufacturing bearings into the retaining cups and follow the Campy tech document.
Andrew
oldpotatoe
01-30-2012, 08:44 AM
I just found a set of the 2000-2006 Record silver hubs that were slightly used. I am probably going to put in new bearings and re-grease. Anything I should be aware of? I was just going to pop some new 5/32" wheels manufacturing bearings into the retaining cups and follow the Campy tech document.
Andrew
Nope,. great hubs. If you need the cones(same front and back) or seals, email me.
oldpotatoe
01-30-2012, 08:47 AM
For comparison sake:
DS flange Alchemy Campagnolo - 18mm
DS flange Campagnolo - 16.4mm
DS flange DT Shimano or Campagnolo - 16.8mm
DS flange White Industries Campagnolo - 16.2mm
DS flange White Industries Shimano - 18.3mm
DS flange Shimano - 18.8mm
DS flange Alchemy Shimano - 19.6mm
I mention this because Jeremy over at Alchemy is the only hub designer I know of that attempts to maximize DS spacing. With some companies it's an afterthought at best. His Campagnolo model has DS spacing that is comparable or better than some of the "better" designed hubs out there for Shimano which allows for better spacing (for now).
When Shimano goes to 11 speed, the conversation changes and they will have to increase the width of the freehub body to accommodate. Then their spacing will be very similar to Campagnolo. A company like DT probably won't have to do anything because they DS spacing already leaves enough room for the possibility of Shimano 11. Other companies will just have to use the spacing of their Campagnolo design (White Industries, Tune, Alchemy, etc.).
Excellent thanks, get kinda tired of the RH flange on Campagnolo hubs, 'emergency'.
A certain gent/web site with the same first name as me thinks Campagnolo hubs and non offset rims are a deal killer, cannot be made to be reliable..ohh well.
echelon_john
01-30-2012, 08:49 AM
Great luck here with Velocity hubs, esp. the Race hub, for Campagnolo. The Race hub has a 62mm DS flange which effectively increases the c-f distance on the ds.
Have had lots of folks, including some pretty big dudes, on them for quite a while with (knock on wood) no real issues.
They're reasonably priced, easy to service, light enough, have a decent freehub body, and include a very decent skewer.
Plus great customer service & warranty care.
I also agree that an O/C rim can be a great choice; I wish the A23 came in an offset version; it would make a pretty killer low-ish spoke count wheel on the race hub.
JC
Joachim
01-30-2012, 08:51 AM
I just found a set of the 2000-2006 Record silver hubs that were slightly used. I am probably going to put in new bearings and re-grease. Anything I should be aware of? I was just going to pop some new 5/32" wheels manufacturing bearings into the retaining cups and follow the Campy tech document.
Andrew
I put Campy bearings in my silver Campy Record hubs....
classtimesailer
01-30-2012, 09:06 AM
You might consider them. The Velocity hubs come with little or no pride of ownership like the others mentioned but they are smooth and trouble free. FWIW, guys notice how nice mine look and think that they are original issue when they see them on my old steel bike.
oldpotatoe
01-30-2012, 09:08 AM
You might consider them. The Velocity hubs come with little or no pride of ownership like the others mentioned but they are smooth and trouble free. FWIW, guys notice how nice mine look and think that they are original issue when they see them on my old steel bike.
They, along with Miche, are our go to hubs if somebody wants Campagnolo compatible and doesn't want to spend the $ for Campagnolo or DT. Nice hubs.
echelon_john
01-30-2012, 09:25 AM
I have a hard time explaining to customers why Chris King hubs cost almost 3x what Velocity hubs cost. Obviously, made in USA is great, and the CKs are beautiful hubs. But if you're secure in your personhood there's no reason not to go Velocity IMO. It means you can basically get 2 sets of wheels for the price of one built with CK hubs.
ergott
01-30-2012, 09:26 AM
A certain gent/web site with the same first name as me thinks Campagnolo hubs and non offset rims are a deal killer, cannot be made to be reliable..ohh well.
It depends on the rim. If the rim can handle higher tension (110-130kgf), the wheel will be strong. The problem is with older rims that can't handle reasonable tension.
Joachim
01-30-2012, 09:52 AM
Little OT. Has anyone seen the new DT180 $800 rear hub?
Joachim
01-30-2012, 09:53 AM
It depends on the rim. If the rim can handle higher tension (110-130kgf), the wheel will be strong. The problem is with older rims that can't handle reasonable tension.
So Ambrosio Nemesis and Campy Record Pave rims can handle that tension?
ergott
01-30-2012, 10:13 AM
So Ambrosio Nemesis and Campy Record Pave rims can handle that tension?
Shouldn't be an issue. For box section rims like those, it's best if they weigh more than 400g. I had a set of GP4s laced to the last generation Chorus hubs. My friend has them now and they are still on the road.
ergott
01-30-2012, 10:18 AM
Little OT. Has anyone seen the new DT180 $800 rear hub?
There is no way I would recommend that hub. There are far better choices that are designed with better flange spacing, are lighter, and cost less. I'd recommend Tune Mag170 over those any day. They weigh the same and cost half as much to boot.
Joachim
01-30-2012, 10:26 AM
There is no way I would recommend that hub. There are far better choices that are designed with better flange spacing, are lighter, and cost less. I'd recommend Tune Mag170 over those any day. They weigh the same and cost half as much to boot.
My thoughts too. Everyone has their candy, but I was wondering what is that much better on the 180 hub vs the other "halo?" hubs out there...
I love CK headsets, and because of this I've been tempted on several occasions to have a pair wheels built with CK hubs. But then I go to their website and I see the cut-away picture of their hub and the special tools and grease injectors and whatever and I change my mind. They are pretty, but seem wicked finicky for no real performance reason. What is the appeal? Just the bling (hate that word) factor?
Of course! ;-) :beer:
I like the stainless steel cassette body option for added strength over alu. Having the option to buy the service tool is nice too, and seal replacement kits.
If getting the bits and pieces together to service a hub is going to be an ordeal I think I pass on that hub. With a wheel the problem is that one can't simply remove the hub and put a new one in. It's not like changing a tire. A CK may be finicky and expensive, but it is serviceable, and over time I think the costs begin to even themselves up.
ergott
01-30-2012, 10:54 AM
My thoughts too. Everyone has their candy, but I was wondering what is that much better on the 180 hub vs the other "halo?" hubs out there...
A halo hub should at least be a good design. At least you could make arguments for each of the halo bikes as being better (lighter, stiffer, more aero etc.).
The DT 180 uses tiny bearings, the flange placement is subpar, the weight isn't competitive and they cost more than almost every other hub out there. Extralite SLX hub is under 140g and is under $500.
saab2000
01-30-2012, 11:00 AM
I am a strong proponent of offset rims and wish there were more options. I know some of the guys from Velocity and I keep hounding them on an offset A23. They say it'll never happen and it's not needed because their hub does the same thing. I can't imagine it does as much to deal with the spoke tension issue but I would imagine a purpose-built hub like that with an offset would really pretty much eliminate the asymmetrical tension completely.
That said, I think the Velocity Aerohead OC is an awesome rim. I just wish the A23 had an offset rear available. Hopefully one day.
oldpotatoe
01-30-2012, 11:04 AM
I am a strong proponent of offset rims and wish there were more options. I know some of the guys from Velocity and I keep hounding them on an offset A23. They say it'll never happen and it's not needed because their hub does the same thing. I can't imagine it does as much to deal with the spoke tension issue but I would imagine a purpose-built hub like that with an offset would really pretty much eliminate the asymmetrical tension completely.
That said, I think the Velocity Aerohead OC is an awesome rim. I just wish the A23 had an offset rear available. Hopefully one day.
Fairly expensive to produce I would think. I like offset also. Synergy, Aerohead.
Kontact
01-30-2012, 11:38 AM
I will be doing 32 based on comments on other threads. I would love a light wheels set but they won't love my 180lb butt.
But I still can save some weight with a hub and still keep the spoke count up.
If I wanted to be slow I could go with 36h since I have some nice Mavic 500 hubs to use.
So how do factory built rims like what Hed puts out or even the Velocity A23 remain durable (speculation) with so few spokes?
180 isn't super heavy, but if you want more durability and lower weight you can eliminate some of the front wheel spokes (24/28, 28/32 or 24/32), use lighter spokes for the front and NDS, like Revolutions or the lighter aero spokes, or choose a stouter but more aero rim that is stiffer/stronger than a 425 gram A23. Rim strength matters, and sometimes adding material to the rim makes dropping a more spokes worthwhile. Of course, there are only so many 23mm rims out there.
There isn't a single solution, but the "problem wheel" is the rear, so that's where most people need a stronger wheel for their increased weight. The rear is also the less important aero wheel, so building the front wheel with fewer and aero spokes will net a bigger aero advantage than anything you do on the back.
But if you want to use your 36 hole Mavic hubs, with the right spokes you'll get a wheelset that is actually lighter than a 32 spoke regular double butted wheelset, and that much tougher, so I wouldn't dismiss that for a lightish utility wheelset. Just changing the type of spokes will change the wheelset weight by 100 grams - and allow a very light rim to be safely used.
If all that seems like a lot of bother for basic wheels, just buy a complete 32 hole Mavic/Shimano/DT 1900 gram wheelset for $230, and save the expense of getting custom wheels made for non-competitive riding:
http://www.bicyclewheelwarehouse.com/road/700c/riders-220-or-less/mavic-open-sport-shimano-105/prod_140.html
merckx
01-30-2012, 12:19 PM
So Ambrosio Nemesis and Campy Record Pave rims can handle that tension?
My Sigma Pave rear rim (laced to Campy hub) with 110 kgf on DS lasted a season before cracking. It was a 400g. rim. Nemesis at 440g.-465g. can take the tension. 400 grams is not enough (like Reflex) for long term durability, imho.
FlashUNC
01-30-2012, 12:27 PM
Second The recommendation on Miche hubs. Not fancy and lack the name cache, but I've got a pair of wheels that work great.
stephenmarklay
01-30-2012, 12:35 PM
Thank you for your input on this. If I were to go with the 36h hubs do you recommend a light wheel? I would love to go 23mm but just for completeness what others?
180 isn't super heavy, but if you want more durability and lower weight you can eliminate some of the front wheel spokes (24/28, 28/32 or 24/32), use lighter spokes for the front and NDS, like Revolutions or the lighter aero spokes, or choose a stouter but more aero rim that is stiffer/stronger than a 425 gram A23. Rim strength matters, and sometimes adding material to the rim makes dropping a more spokes worthwhile. Of course, there are only so many 23mm rims out there.
There isn't a single solution, but the "problem wheel" is the rear, so that's where most people need a stronger wheel for their increased weight. The rear is also the less important aero wheel, so building the front wheel with fewer and aero spokes will net a bigger aero advantage than anything you do on the back.
But if you want to use your 36 hole Mavic hubs, with the right spokes you'll get a wheelset that is actually lighter than a 32 spoke regular double butted wheelset, and that much tougher, so I wouldn't dismiss that for a lightish utility wheelset. Just changing the type of spokes will change the wheelset weight by 100 grams - and allow a very light rim to be safely used.
If all that seems like a lot of bother for basic wheels, just buy a complete 32 hole Mavic/Shimano/DT 1900 gram wheelset for $230, and save the expense of getting custom wheels made for non-competitive riding:
http://www.bicyclewheelwarehouse.com/road/700c/riders-220-or-less/mavic-open-sport-shimano-105/prod_140.html
Kontact
01-30-2012, 01:32 PM
Thank you for your input on this. If I were to go with the 36h hubs do you recommend a light wheel? I would love to go 23mm but just for completeness what others?
I have no experience with them, but Velo Orange imports a 530 gram box rim that is 22mm wide and polished. It wouldn't be light, but it would be wider.
The A23 is a fine rim, and a good choice for whatever drilling.
Sun Ringle CR-18s are 22.5mm wide box road rims that are polished, 36 hole and 460 grams. They are inexpensive and reasonably tough - this might be your best value in a wide, light rim.
IRD Cadence Road and VSR rims are about the lightest 36 hole rim you can buy at 390 grams - and they aren't too pricey, either. Lot's of spokes makes up for light rims.
Or you could buy these:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pair-classic-MAVIC-MODULE-E-2-clincher-700c-cycle-rims-Alloy-36H-/280814458608?pt=UK_sportsleisure_cycling_bikeparts _SR&hash=item4161d896f0#ht_500wt_1287
Another great way to go is to stop in at some of the more established shops and find out what they have sitting in the basement. 36 hole road rims haven't been popular for awhile, and there may be some real gems from the '80s for aero or box section Campy, Ambrosio, Mavic, etc to be had for a bargain, and they'll look nice, too.
Anyway, lot's of ways to go if you want to put those hubs back in service.
echelon_john
01-30-2012, 01:48 PM
the velocity dyad is available in 36 and doesn't carry a big weight penalty even though it's a pretty bomber rim. i think it's around 480g without looking.
so that with 36 2.0/1.5 spokes and maybe alloy nipples (the sapim ones really hold up great) would make a really nice, tough wheel.
stephenmarklay
01-30-2012, 02:21 PM
Going all new the Velocity hubs seem to gather some supporters for value and the offset hub factory A23 wheels seem like a good value.
echelon_john
01-30-2012, 02:51 PM
sorry bout that
Kontact
01-30-2012, 03:08 PM
Going all new the Velocity hubs seem to gather some supporters for value and the offset hub factory A23 wheels seem like a good value.
We've sold quite a few Velocity hub/A23 wheelsets - no problems.
I've done some more checking on the IRD rims - they don't seem to be as nice as the Kinlins, so please ignore that suggestion. Kinlin doesn't seem to make 36 hole rims.
pavel
01-30-2012, 03:20 PM
Sorry if this was already covered - are the velocity hubs made by formula?
ergott
01-30-2012, 06:21 PM
We've sold quite a few Velocity hub/A23 wheelsets - no problems.
I've done some more checking on the IRD rims - they don't seem to be as nice as the Kinlins, so please ignore that suggestion. Kinlin doesn't seem to make 36 hole rims.
IRD rims are made by Kinlin.
Kontact
01-30-2012, 07:24 PM
IRD rims are made by Kinlin.
I know, That's why I made the comparison. I should have said.
But the eyeletted IRDs are constructed differently and don't seem to have the reputation of the Kinlins.
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