CSi Last Call?

[dbrk]

Perhaps if there were enough of us, the diehards, Serotta would consider making a Last Call (instead of the cold turkey, "Hey, we're done! It was great! On to other things!) I mean certainly it is Serotta's right to do whatever they want as purveyors of cycles and so sell what they want but what if there _really were_ a number of us willing to PONY UP. I have a CSi but I would like _one last try_. A new one for me would be taller, longer, have a pump peg, use stnd reach calipers, none of which is true of the bike I have. Yours could be your way. Why bother? Well, it's a great bike (and there are other great bikes) but there is a distinctive aesthetic and claim that the CSi makes on American cycling history and Serotta's own history. Why not let us, the lugnuts and Serotta's most loyal following, have a shot at being part of the parting shot? It could be said that we had our chance and made other choices. Fair enough criticism. But if you put the "had we known" factor into the equation, perhaps there'd be one LAST CALL...

Would YOU pony up? It ain't chump change. I may just be a chump but what the heck, does it hurt to ask? Ben, do you hear me, brother? I've been with your bikes a long, long time, bought a slew of them, one last chance? Thanks, no matter what you decide.

dbrk

[William]

I agree. One final shot for those in remorse.

William :)

[csilastcall]

I'd order one directly.

[William]

...A special farewell edition? Maybe a special Badge outlining the years production began and ends? Only take orders for a certain period of time to get these end of production specials?

Just thinking out loud.

William

[SoCalSteve]

and will keep it...

But, if there were things about it that I didnt like...well, I'd buy a new custom one in a heartbeat!

I really think Douglas has hit on something. Yeah Ben, one last chance!

Steve

PS: Special lugs, a different headbadge, all things worth considering.

[Louis]

I wonder how Serotta decided to not do this. Did they gauge the market based on recent Csi sales, or did they poll their dealers or anyone else?

If they did decide to produce a final CSi model, having already decided to not do that, I believe they would be admitting that they really don’t know their customers, which I think is unlikely. (You can read that either way you like.)

Louis

[Fixed]

That might have been in the works the whole time they ain't dumb.BroCheers

[93legendti]

Perhaps if there were enough of us, the diehards, Serotta would consider making a Last Call (instead of the cold turkey, "Hey, we're done! It was great! On to other things!) I mean certainly it is Serotta's right to do whatever they want as purveyors of cycles and so sell what they want but what if there _really were_ a number of us willing to PONY UP. I have a CSi but I would like _one last try_. A new one for me would be taller, longer, have a pump peg, use stnd reach calipers, none of which is true of the bike I have. Yours could be your way. Why bother? Well, it's a great bike (and there are other great bikes) but there is a distinctive aesthetic and claim that the CSi makes on American cycling history and Serotta's own history. Why not let us, the lugnuts and Serotta's most loyal following, have a shot at being part of the parting shot? It could be said that we had our chance and made other choices. Fair enough criticism. But if you put the "had we known" factor into the equation, perhaps there'd be one LAST CALL...

Would YOU pony up? It ain't chump change. I may just be a chump but what the heck, does it hurt to ask? Ben, do you hear me, brother? I've been with your bikes a long, long time, bought a slew of them, one last chance? Thanks, no matter what you decide.

dbrk

Great idea.

[rnhood]

If they have a layaway program I would throw my hat in. I have always wanted a CSI built on Rapid Tour geometry.

[Kevin]

If we are going to have a farewell edition CSI, how about a farewell edition DKS?

Kevin

[William]

That might have been in the works the whole time they ain't dumb.BroCheers

That was kind of the flip side of what I was thinking. Make the announcement, gauge the response, make the offer. Use the announcement to create the outcry ,the troops rally so to speak, and then offer a special.

I'm not saying that this is what they are doing. Just that the thought occurred to me.

Anyway, I still think it's a good idea.

William

[Smiley]

Fire up the tourch Brian , I think we got ourselves a mad feeding rush . Yippe , Guys and Gals , send in Deposits to your dealers for CSI's and test the waters , Money talks and bull$it walks . If your dealer has clout you'll get a CSI , if not, you'll get a thank you .

[Needs Help]

What would happen if a certain dealer turned in an order for 10 Csi's? :)

[dbrk]

Smilely, check you pm.

Gentlepersons, I will put money where goes the mouth. Who's in?

Take yer time but remember that life passes you by while you plan too far ahead. The other guy who would go in with me on just such a deal is no longer here but he died riding his bike ---as fine a person as I have ever known and the sort to put his money where his mouth goes.

Now...the color...hmmm...:-)

dbrk

[Smiley]

For the record , I told DBRK that I'd push the issue but we would need a few orders to make Ben and company drool for the business and hopefully they set up and make a production run . Brian are you rested :banana:

[JohnS]

I don't think it's going to happen...

[Tom]

But if Serotta said they'd make a recumbent tandem... talk about a land rocket!

[Smiley]

If they have the lugs in stock , the tubes are the same as the C-III , then now is the time to test this theory , but one or two frames won't excite anybody . This senario is different then when they stopped making the Hors , in that case they were running low on elasomers and parts needed and stopped taking new orders so they would not over load inventory with parts they could not sell . Time is ticking . For the record , I would not get any credit for these bike sales ( nor do I want it ) , I would assume that Serotta would assign these sales to your chosen local shop . Somebody needs to be the central focal point to show Steve and Mike ( Serotta regional Sales guru's ) the power of a grass roots sales campaign .

[dbrk]

So, I'll plunk down. I'm willing to be the focal point, as it were, that is just the one who says there are definitely X-number of CSi customers from various shops awaiting you. Drop me a PM or an email at dbrk@frontiernet.net

In few days I will write or call Serotta and tell them our grassroots effort. It would bring integrity to the process if people did not change their minds, back out, or otherwise not meet the commitment, right? So let's be good to Ben and Co. and to ourselves. If this is the bike you want, perhaps they will make a few more. How many is "critical mass"? Who knows. Will Serotta do it? Perhaps...or not, it's their business, but why not we ask?

dbrk

[slowgoing]

I'm in. I have one but would like to get one for my son. He's 10 now so this will be going in storage for a while. He'll never be able to order one later, so why not order him one while they still might be available?

What's the ball park proper size for a someone who's 6'2" to 6'3"?

[SoCalSteve]

A stock 60 or 62...depending on his leg length, torso length and how long you want the stem to be.

I have a stock 62 with a 130 stem.

Steve

[Russ]

My current CSI is a few mm shorter on the top tube, this alone would not warrant for me to have/want a new CSI. However, if Ben decides to make a grand finale limited edition steel lugged bike, I would be glad to sell my CSI and order a new baby that would fit me to the mm!

DBRK, I am with you... But I wonder how many orders would have to be in the house for Serotta to make a farewell bike?

[vaxn8r]

I don't think it's going to happen...
I don't either. Come on steelheads. Money. Mouth. Put her there.

[Bill Bove]

Can I get mine fillit brazed :confused: Like the origenal. :eek:
But this is a very great idea! One last run, a special "end of an era" model.

[dirtdigger88]

can they do drunken stays :p

Jason

[palincss]

...A special farewell edition? Maybe a special Badge outlining the years production began and ends?
William

Yes, with a black border.

[JohnS]

I'm in. I have one but would like to get one for my son. He's 10 now so this will be going in storage for a while. He'll never be able to order one later, so why not order him one while they still might be available?

What's the ball park proper size for a someone who's 6'2" to 6'3"?
Watch out for those genes. I have two older brothers who are 6'1" and I'm only 5'8".

[Dekonick]

I would consider selling the Legend I just bought to get a custom last run CSI that FITS like a dream.

Anyone know the cost? It's not on the website anymore...



I

[Smiley]

MSRP Frame was $ 2195 plus steel Fork for $ 595 , thats off my last price sheet . Single stock color . Now where's all the deposits :)

[slowgoing]

Watch out for those genes. I have two older brothers who are 6'1" and I'm only 5'8".

They just came out with a report that some huge percentage of kids aren't really the children of the guy who thinks he's their father. Hmmm.

Just kidding.

My son is on track to be that height, unless he stops growing soon. If he's shorter, he can ride mine.

And I'd be willing to pay even extra to get the LAST CSi. Serial number 99999, or something like that.

[eddief]

but at $3k the competition is rediculous and that is no doubt the reason for the decision to discontinue. I love the outcry for keeping a legend alive, but for example, Steve Rex will build you a custom, lugged steel frame with a steel fork for about $1500. I for one would rather go meet with my builder, not my shop owner, spend probably less than half and get probably nearly the equal. And I understand the value of owning a classic too. So good luck in getting the last CSI's to those who value such things.

[e-RICHIE]

but at $3k the competition is rediculous and that is no doubt the reason for the decision to discontinue. I love the outcry for keeping a legend alive, but for example, Steve Rex will build you a custom, lugged steel frame with a steel fork for about $1500. I for one would rather go meet with my builder, not my shop owner, spend probably less than half and get probably nearly the equal. And I understand the value of owning a classic too. So good luck in getting the last CSI's to those who value such things.


it's not fair comparing serotta's csi frame or price with
steve rex. the company's timeline in developing the
tubing shapes, guages, and variations is unparalled in
the framebuilding industry - going back to the late 70s
when ben was the first guy to show frames with non
round pipes. none of us had the resources or the prodigious
output it would require to make that learning curve turn
into a straighter line. whether lugged or tigged, those
were always great frames and ahead of what many folk
were able to envision and/or produce.

i don't know the food chain involved in getting the correct
client specs to ny state for the build but if it can be done
(i'm sure it can be done) the result is still a steel frame
that is at the vanguard and, IMO, still a better frame
than 99% of the nonferrous ^&%$ that is imported or
made stateside.
e-RICHIE©™®

[Smiley]

eddieF , you mean meeting with me is not a priceles moment that you could cherish :banana: I am hurt big guy and after I warned you about them decals on your Kogs . By the way speaking of Kogswell , how would you compare that price :)

[JohnS]

All these people who have been griping for the past two years that Serotta had priced the CSI out of the market all of a sudden think that it's a good deal. I wish I had your disposable income. :confused:

[slowgoing]

All these people who have been griping for the past two years that Serotta had priced the CSI out of the market all of a sudden think that it's a good deal. I wish I had your disposable income. :confused:

John - I think some people are more motivated to buy now, compared to the last few years, because we now know it's not going to be available anymore. I certainly wouldn't buy one now if I thought they'd be available years down the line, but that's no longer an option.

[eddief]

buddies. e-ritchie I admitted the classic nature of the CSI. I even owned a too small example before I knew my fit requirements. You know better than most all the factors involved in the gestalt of a bike. Like I said, those who want to buy a piece of cycle history should do so, but I still think the Rex or any other decent custom built frameset can look and ride to compete with it. I know there is a steep price to pay for the ghost of cycling history, but I am willing to settle for merely a finely built piece of custom steel work.

Smiley even though I'm sure you are the best of fitters, I still really enjoyed meeting the face and hands of the man who brazed my tubes. My Kogswell was priced at $450 shipped, my Rambouillet at about $900 and my Rex at about $1500. For the non-racer that I am and the mostly non-racers who meet here, these bikes I venture, are the riding match for anything pictured or discussed. By the way, my Kogswell decals were applied with nary a hitch. Please don't misinterpret my comments. I do truly love lugged steel bikes, just have other things to do with my money besides purchasing what I perceive to be a piece of nostalgia.

[David Kirk]

it's not fair comparing serotta's csi frame or price with
steve rex. the company's timeline in developing the
tubing shapes, guages, and variations is unparalled in
the framebuilding industry - going back to the late 70s
when ben was the first guy to show frames with non
round pipes. none of us had the resources or the prodigious
output it would require to make that learning curve turn
into a straighter line. whether lugged or tigged, those
were always great frames and ahead of what many folk
were able to envision and/or produce.

i don't know the food chain involved in getting the correct
client specs to ny state for the build but if it can be done
(i'm sure it can be done) the result is still a steel frame
that is at the vanguard and, IMO, still a better frame
than 99% of the nonferrous ^&%$ that is imported or
made stateside.
e-RICHIE©™®

what he said times 2

Dave

[ThylacineCycles]

it's not fair comparing serotta's csi frame or price with
steve rex. the company's timeline in developing the
tubing shapes, guages, and variations is unparalled in
the framebuilding industry - going back to the late 70s
when ben was the first guy to show frames with non
round pipes. none of us had the resources or the prodigious
output it would require to make that learning curve turn
into a straighter line. whether lugged or tigged, those
were always great frames and ahead of what many folk
were able to envision and/or produce.

i don't know the food chain involved in getting the correct
client specs to ny state for the build but if it can be done
(i'm sure it can be done) the result is still a steel frame
that is at the vanguard and, IMO, still a better frame
than 99% of the nonferrous ^&%$ that is imported or
made stateside.
e-RICHIE©™®

I'm looking forward to seeing how many of these idiots who undercharge for custom frame design contribute to the species in 15 years time.

Nobody should really lament the passing of lugged steel by Serotta. They run a business, and for a business their size lugged steel ain't economically viable. Plain and simple.

If you want nostalgia, go dredge ebay. If you want modern neo-retro steel, that means more Kirks, Vanillas, Bohemians, 'Trauts...whatever.

How can that be a bad thing?

[e-RICHIE]

I'm looking forward to seeing how many of these idiots who undercharge for custom frame design contribute to the species in 15 years time.

I may not love Serottas, but you're paying for something far more valuable than some monkey who charges 600 bucks, tells you what you want to hear, and then finds out he earns about 12 bucks an hour and has no captial to reinvest in making his frames better.

Nobody should really lament the passing of lugged steel by Serotta. They run a business, and for a business their size lugged steel ain't economically viable.

Good I say. Good riddance. That means more Kirks, Vanillas, Bohemians, 'Trauts...whatever. How can that be a bad thing?



good morning warwick.

[ThylacineCycles]

'Evening Richo. You'll notice my deft use of editing. :rolleyes: The drugs for my sore throat appear to be working.

[Sandy]

it's not fair comparing serotta's csi frame or price with
steve rex. the company's timeline in developing the
tubing shapes, guages, and variations is unparalled in
the framebuilding industry - going back to the late 70s
when ben was the first guy to show frames with non
round pipes. none of us had the resources or the prodigious
output it would require to make that learning curve turn
into a straighter line. whether lugged or tigged, those
were always great frames and ahead of what many folk
were able to envision and/or produce.

i don't know the food chain involved in getting the correct
client specs to ny state for the build but if it can be done
(i'm sure it can be done) the result is still a steel frame
that is at the vanguard and, IMO, still a better frame
than 99% of the nonferrous ^&%$ that is imported or
made stateside.
e-RICHIE©™®

It certainly is fair "....comparing serotta's csi frame or price with steve rex. ...".
eddief is simply taking a different but very realistic and sensible perspective to purchasing a lugged steel bike. That perspective is not using as a base the history and evolution of the bike. How the bike evolved to what exists today is simply not what is critical. The important concept is how does the ride, quality, and design compare on a dollar value purchase. In this perspective, you are simply buying a bike to ride, and not a piece of history. The Steve Rex frame and fork is half the cost of a CSi, and I believe Steve Rex will fit you for it, if I understood what eddie f said. To eddie f and a large number of other cyclists, a lugged CSi simply costs too much to ride, plain and simple.

The fact that Serotta's (or Dave Kirks or Richard Sachs or Tom Kellogg or..) streel frame is "still a better frame than 99% of the nonferrous ^&%$ that is imported or made stateside." has absolutely nothing to do with the point that eddie was making.

You can buy a beautiful part of the hstory of the evolution of a lugged steel frame and fork, simutaneously purchasing a remarkably wonderful bike, but some simply could care less about the former. They ride the bike and not the evolution or history of the bike.

The CSi is a wonderful bike, but does it ride better than a tig welded CIII? Will it last any longer? Aesthetics and history aside, is a CSi a better ride than a CIII? More durable? I doubt it.

Mr. Sachs and Mr. Kirk- both of you have justifiably earned tremendous respect within the cycling industry, and both of you have a part in the evolution of superior bikes, but the future of bicyling, as you undoubtedly know, is not lugged steel bikes, no matter how wonderful they are.

Your love of lugged steel bikes, especially of the quality that you and Ben Serotta produce, is most admirable.


Sandy

[Climb01742]

i'm glad your computer is fixed, senor sensible sandy. yesterday aboard my unferrous rig made just up the road, something hit me (aside from about eight bugs): it seems that folks who like carbon, ti or alu are quite willing to give steel its due respect and props. yet the reverse is much less often true. then a 9th bug hit me. :rolleyes:

[The Spider]

I find that people who are recent inductées into our wonderful culture don't actually consider any other material than carbon for a bike frame material, carbon is thought of (and marketed as) the pinnicle of cycling technology. The only people that seem to comment, admire or even understand my need to ride a steal steed are people that have cycled through the "age of steal" (when it was considered the pinnicle) and are aware of it's fantastic abilities.

[Sandy]

Undoubtedly what you say is true. Since less and less cyclists will ever be exposed to lugged steel frames, there will be less and less desire for them, I would think.

Steel frames are wonderful, but non-steel frames also have there virtues. I like my Ottrott significantly better than my CSi. Does that make me evil??

If I had the need and desire for another frame now, it would either be a lugged steel CSi (if available), a lugged Tom Kellogg Spectrum, or a filet brazed or lugged steel Dave Kirk ( not the Terraplane). I really do love steel bikes, but there is another wonderful non-steel part of the cycling world.

Steel Sandy

[Sandy]

Did the bug have lugged steel wings? :)

I think that your statement about respect has some genuine merit.

Respectfully yours,

Aretha Franklin

[William]

I still think it's a cool idea for those who want to pay for it. But I've considered the $3,000 price tag on a CSI as more or less saying, "we aren't all that interested in making these anymore but if you want to pony-up, we'll do it for X". Now Serotta is to the point that they want to make the step (completely) in another direction and drop the CSI. The Ottrott is the new flagship model they are banking on to take them into the next phase of their business life. This is the model that they believe will be the new Standard bearer for Serotta. So in the age of CNC machines, TIG welding, and cut & glue tubes, they have to get lean and mean to take themselves to the next step in the life of Serotta (whatever Ben envisions that to be).

If a "grass roots" movement took hold and a glut of orders materialized, I'm not so sure they would do it. I mean, all of a sudden they have to tool up to do a bunch of lugged CSI's which they have been gradually getting away from. Really, how many frames do you think Brian can braze in a week??? Unless he's willing to live on No-Doze and Quad Grande Lattés 24/7.... :D Maybe Ben will take up a torch and join him?? :cool:

My feeling is that if they do anything, you'll most likely see a limited run of Special Edition CSI's. It's really going to depend on how much they really WANT to do it (time & effort), and probably how many CSI lugs & bits are currently in stock....I'm sure they aren't carrying too much of an inventory at the moment. Obviously they've determined that they aren't cost effective to do anymore and a new run of orders won't be anymore cost effective then any previous orders. Unless you are willing pay a premium price (over & above the current price) for that special Farewell edition, I don't see it happening.

Just my -$.02

William

[e-RICHIE]

...you are simply buying a bike to ride, and not a piece of history.Sandy


that was my point too; that is always
the point! serotta's entire production
(heck - add to that number all the frames
made by all the indy builders) is a small
blip of less than 1% of the market. they
are for people who know better, or think they
know better, or want the emotional attachment
to the brand, or any number of other irrational
reasons one can summon up for buying something
he/she really does not need.

[JohnS]

they
are for people who know better, or think they
know better, or want the emotional attachment
to the brand, or any number of other irrational
reasons one can summon up for buying something
he/she really does not need.
Are you saying that your customers are irrational? :)

[e-RICHIE]

Are you saying that your customers are irrational? :)


you ought not ask questions you already know the answer to.
e-RATIONAL©™®

[dbrk]

If buying a bicycle were only a rational decision we'd all ride. I dunno, Hummers and throw stuff at bicyclists. Thank goodness it's not only rational but rather about loving what we love for "reasons" none of which I wish to explore and all of which are no one else's darn business (unless one chooses to make it so since bicycles, of all things, are as nearly harmless a "vice" as one could choose, imho). To reduce a bicycle to the ride, the ride, the ride is just _another_ reason rooted in one's passion, albeit one without my own personal peeves about history, aesthetics, style, cost/benefit, etc. The interesting thing to me is that bicycles are not _just_ functional units: for some they stir the heart to rouse nearly every manner of feeling. When you drift, for example, over to the old iBOB list you find the ethos with a more practical and economical (some might say "cheapskate") point of view while the CRs care about the whether their 1960-something rear derailleur has the patent debossed on the unseeable inside. Everyone's got their thing, no?

I am one of those who would have "replaced" his current CSi with one tweaked to be just a bit more perfect but for the (relatively recent) scary price and other priorities in cycling passion. I should have see the writing on the wall and gotten it "right" since this is the only Serotta I honestly care about.

To Climb's point about "respecting" non-ferrous bikes while the Non-ferrousites must defer to steel in some way, I say, that is a feature of history and ethos as well. Since Serotta so long touted the CSi as its benchmark, what are Serottans to do? Say that steel and lugs are "archaic"? Now, in fact, they have a certain social license to do just that. There's more to opinions than individuals. Call me a Socialist but it's true. As for non-ferrous bikes, they are okay, often very good rides, but excite so little passion in me personally that I treat them with only as much respect as it allows me to enjoy and then sell them after having a fling. I've no plans to buy another, though I'd get an Ottrott if the price were exceedingly right and I'd likely sell it after not too long, for _passionate_ reasons it'd never be a Keeper for me. I've never ridden a non-ferrous bike that I thought rode better than the best steel, which is not the same as saying that they aren't any good. But _passion_ would drive me to pay the premium for a CSi. As for TIG welding, well, I like this best when Dario paints them because I cannot get passionate about weld beads of any kind (unless they are Moots, there, I said it.)

Smiley your pm box is full, though I doubt you or anyone else got this far in this post. I type too fast for my own good and wander back and forth from here to my book manuscripts too much. Can we (that's you, Smiley) talk about a CSi? PM me and I'll phone you.

dbrk

[Fixed]

:beer: Bro what about the mojo factor that you and a very few put in?Cheers

[Too Tall]

Twizzlerdewds customers are the most highly informed, best looking and best looking customers on plant earth. WHAT????

Do I want a CSI? Derrr. But the deal is will I plunk down $$ to make a point? Not! I've got more respect for Serotta than that. My faith in what is the company rests with their business principles, Ben et. al. and that, apparently, does NOT include a CSI.

Moving on.

Step 5.

*Carmen Miranda says "bannanas is my business".

[Samster]

If I were running Serotta (and I'm not), I wouldn't have terminated the CSi if about half of the people lamenting the loss of the model placed an order for it. I'm sure many would respond by saying they already have one, but that's not really the point.

--Sam

[JohnS]

Everyone here is the reason that Serotta quit making the CSi. Y'all don't want just any old CSi, it has to be a limited edition last-of-the-bunch collectors item. Everyone talks about buying one, very few about actually riding it. A bike frame is a mode of transportation, not an object d' art. Serotta has realized that most of its customer base has moved on to other models. Like another thread asked, how many people ride their CSi much after getting a Legend or Ottrott...not many. What everyone here should do is buy a Legend, because in five years everything is going to be cf and you'll be lamenting the "sublime" (I hate that word) ride of real titanium! ;)

[Fixed]

It comes down to want and need are you goin ride a $5000 bike better than $2000 bike? I don't but that ahh factor from your buds on group rides is worth something I guess.Cheers

[Sandy]

Many years ago, I played racketball. The first frame that I had was wood. I then got a plastic orange "bandido" frame for about $10. There was a Maryland State champion, who was an awesome player, who played with that little orange plastic racket. There were many more "sophisticated" and much more expensive rackets around. His el cheapo worked just great for him.

Undoubtedly, ther are no more wood rackets, and probably no plastic rackets any more. Things change, rackets and bicycles evolve, some for the better, some not.

Going Backwards in Evolution,

Sandy

[dbrk]

Everyone here is the reason that Serotta quit making the CSi. Y'all don't want just any old CSi, it has to be a limited edition last-of-the-bunch collectors item. Everyone talks about buying one, very few about actually riding it. A bike frame is a mode of transportation, not an object d' art. Serotta has realized that most of its customer base has moved on to other models. Like another thread asked, how many people ride their CSi much after getting a Legend or Ottrott...not many. What everyone here should do is buy a Legend, because in five years everything is going to be cf and you'll be lamenting the "sublime" (I hate that word) ride of real titanium! ;)

I can't find myself agreeing with nearly any part of this post, all the way down to my love for the word "sublime." I've bought about seven or eight CSi over the years, would buy another, and in likely contrast to many here, unless one is basically given to me, I doubt I will ever buy an Ottrott. I have a car for transportation unless I am riding the bike to University or the local store but "transportation"? These bikes ain't about no transportation, they are for fun. Fun is a legitimate human endeavor, as far as I am concerned. Waaaaay better than work, for example. I've sold off my Legends because I prefer the CSi. But I am not the direction Serotta is going (that's abundantly clear) and, in that respect, I agree with you, so I am compelled to retract my first comment.

dbrk

[JohnS]

You misread my use of the word "transportation". I didn't mean boring, mundane travel. I meant, something that is supposed to be ridden (regularly). Once this thread started, everyone started talking about special number series, "last of" graphics, etc. Two weeks ago, many wouldn't dream of plunking down $3000 for a CSi. They all want them for collector's value, not riding value. If something isn't used for its intended use, it's just an inanimate hunk of ferrous metal art hanging on the wall.

[Smiley]

I talked to Steve today and he's not keen on the idea of any more CSI's other then the ones that are in house now . I really think the guys at Serotta have thought this one out and I don't think were going to change their minds with 6 frame orders . So maybe we'll wait for an anniversary edition model or some kind of limited production model . I also get the impression from Steve that we can forget about Fillet brazed C-III for awhile too . Sorry

[dbrk]

I talked to Steve today and he's not keen on the idea of any more CSI's other then the ones that are in house now . I really think the guys at Serotta have thought this one out and I don't think were going to change their minds with 6 frame orders . So maybe we'll wait for an anniversary edition model or some kind of limited production model . I also get the impression from Steve that we can forget about Fillet brazed C-III for awhile too . Sorry

Fair enough. I will not persist but rather be happy with what I have. I wasn't looking for a special edition or a wallhanger (though there is nothing wrong with that and, in this respect, I respectfully disagree with JohnS, I mean, so what if people want bike frames that they don't ride, is that really a problem? They are for sale, aren't they? What people do with their bikes is their own business), but rather a more refined version of what I already own. That's not possible now and I can live with that just fine. Okay, I'm done. That doesn't make it less of a shame, as I see it, but so be it.

dbrk

[flydhest]

dbrk,

The CSi you sold me is my transportation, day in and day out. For the past 4 months, it has been my commuter, shopper, and training ride bike. OK, so the last one is the fun you talked about (and I agree with you, fun ought to be considered among the exalted human endeavors) but I'm saddened to realize that not enough people do consider bicycles to be transportation.

OK, living where you do, I guess I understand. Nevertheless, one of the reasons I love that I live in a city is bicycle-cum-transport.

[dbrk]

dbrk,

The CSi you sold me is my transportation, day in and day out. For the past 4 months, it has been my commuter, shopper, and training ride bike. OK, so the last one is the fun you talked about (and I agree with you, fun ought to be considered among the exalted human endeavors) but I'm saddened to realize that not enough people do consider bicycles to be transportation.

OK, living where you do, I guess I understand. Nevertheless, one of the reasons I love that I live in a city is bicycle-cum-transport.

If I didn't live in the country (it's about 12 miles roundtrip and half of it a steep climb to fetch groceries) I would live in a city where I barely drove the car, which is what I did when I lived in Rochester. I too used the bike for transportation and I too lament dearly that more people don't consider it for all sorts of reasons (many of them good ones given how our culture basically refuses the viability of the bicycle as a "serious" mode of transportation unlike, say. the Dutch or Chinese). I actually _miss_ commuting but not enough to leave the farm. (Next year this actually will be a functioning farm again with either a large field of sunflowers--- every Tournesol customer gets a pack of homegrown seeds--- or corn (I'll still send you seed if you want...).

And I'm really glad you like that CSi, flydhest. It's a beauty. Now had the top tube not been as long as the Brooklyn Bridge...

dbrk

[flydhest]

dbrk,

I'd love sunflower seeds. I have visions of their splendor on either side of my garage so that as I wheel back from a ride in the summer, . . . well, you get the idea.

You realize, of course, that I wasn't criticizing. I've re-read a couple things I've written this morning and apparently I'm a bit snippy today. Need to go for a ride at lunch, I reckon.

Re: the top tube . . . well, if the top tube hadn't been as long as the Brooklyn Bridge, it wouldn't fit me so well :) I rode with a friend this weekend who doesn't have a road bike. I dropped the saddle just a hair for him (he's not much shorter than me) but boy were his neck and shoulders a bit stiff the next day from the stretch.

[slowgoing]

I talked to Steve today and he's not keen on the idea of any more CSI's other then the ones that are in house now . I really think the guys at Serotta have thought this one out and I don't think were going to change their minds with 6 frame orders . So maybe we'll wait for an anniversary edition model or some kind of limited production model . I also get the impression from Steve that we can forget about Fillet brazed C-III for awhile too . Sorry

Thanks for checking, Smiley. It was sure worth a try.

[Tom]

This from a guy who at this time is solidly in the second camp. It's going to take a big change in attitude before you see more people actually riding a bike. Roads built with bikes in mind, urban planning and people recognizing what sprawl is doing to us in the long run, and ten dollar a gallon gas. Of course, if that last one comes to pass we'll have the whole road to ourselves so the first one won't be necessary.

[flydhest]

This from a guy who at this time is solidly in the second camp. It's going to take a big change in attitude before you see more people actually riding a bike. Roads built with bikes in mind, urban planning and people recognizing what sprawl is doing to us in the long run, and ten dollar a gallon gas. Of course, if that last one comes to pass we'll have the whole road to ourselves so the first one won't be necessary.

Tom,

I think you're right, unfortunately. I did take a small road trip to Williamsburg, VA this weekend. Even in a car that gets 30 mpg, it's staggering how much it costs now. I felt like I was back on vacation in France without the good food.

Anyway, I respectfully ask everyone on the forum to try to take their bike for transportation at least once a month and see if they can't find a way to work it into everyday life.

[Keith A]

Anyway, I respectfully ask everyone on the forum to try to take their bike for transportation at least once a month and see if they can't find a way to work it into everyday life.Thanks for the challenge. I would really like to be able to make commuting a regular part of my life. I have been after our company forever to install a shower, but it hasn't happened yet. I will try and commute this month and see if I can make the sink cleanup work.

[cpg]

Tom,

I think you're right, unfortunately. I did take a small road trip to Williamsburg, VA this weekend. Even in a car that gets 30 mpg, it's staggering how much it costs now. I felt like I was back on vacation in France without the good food.

Anyway, I respectfully ask everyone on the forum to try to take their bike for transportation at least once a month and see if they can't find a way to work it into everyday life.

I commute 12 months a year. I live in MN. I don't want to hear any weather related excuses. Granted, I don't have to worry about showing up sweaty but too many bicyclist view their bikes as a fitness only tool. It can be that and so much more.

Curt

[Dekonick]

Commuting on bike is a wonderful experience. I waited for years to be assigned to a station where I can ride to work - where I no longer had to worry about being transfered mid shift to another location (kinda difficult to haul 100+ lbs of gear on a bike...)

Bought a Legend just for this purpose; my only regret is I did not buy a custom CSI instead.

I love the Legend - great ride.
I just hope my Colorado CR will last a LONG time...

[Marco]

I commute 12 months a year. I live in MN.

cpg: that is worthy of hero status. I can handle the cold but the ice, crud and hard pack make me leary....

[flydhest]

Marco,

How about some props for me? I commute 12 months a year. The winters ain't like up there, but August with 95 to 100 degrees and jungle-like humidity in DC?????

:D

[JohnS]

I wasn't looking for a special edition or a wallhanger (though there is nothing wrong with that and, in this respect, I respectfully disagree with JohnS, I mean, so what if people want bike frames that they don't ride, is that really a problem? They are for sale, aren't they? What people do with their bikes is their own business), but rather a more refined version of what I already own.
dbrk
Because a bike that's never ridden isn't a bike, just like a gun that's never shot isn't a gun. They are objects that you look at. Serotta is in the business of making rideable bikes.
I doubt that you would be happy with your next CSi anyway. If the first eight (or however many) didn't float your boat, I doubt if this one would.

[Marco]

you're right man...but I am a lover of heat more than cold (in spite of my residence) so the thought of riding on ice is always unnerving to me while the thought of a good hard sweat is pleasing in it's own way. Having said that, I know that the District can be a 100% certified sweathouse for a couple of months each year. What I do admire is your ability to ride in each morning and then put on a suit (which allows you to feel more elegant :)).

[Marco]

you're right man...but I am a lover of heat more than cold (in spite of my residence) so the thought of riding on ice is always unnerving to me while the thought of a good hard sweat is pleasing in it's own way. Having said that, I know that the District can be a 100% certified sweathouse for a couple of months each year. What I do admire is your ability to ride in each morning and then put on a suit (which allows you to feel more elegant :)).

Oh yea-....and you get Yoda status in my book so I can't pile on too many superlatives..................

[Johny]

Because a bike that's never ridden isn't a bike, just like a gun that's never shot isn't a gun. They are objects that you look at. Serotta is in the business of making rideable bikes.
I doubt that you would be happy with your next CSi anyway. If the first eight (or however many) didn't float your boat, I doubt if this one would.


I cannot speak for Dr. DBRK. However, I know that he has finally figured out the geometry he likes without the "help" from the "certified fitters".

I have one CSi (a 10th anniversary bike for the Colorado concept). I am very happy with it. One of the best if one knows how to appreciate it.

[Fixed]

encore edition

[JohnS]

[QUOTE=Johny] However, I know that he has finally figured out the geometry he likes without the "help" from the "certified fitters".QUOTE]
GIGO- damn those worthless, stupid certified fitters. So how much money has Serotta wasted on that program? They could have used that money to keep the CSi line running!!! :no:

[William]

Put the paddles down, stop massaging it's Top tube and turn off the really expensive machine that goes BING! Ben called it.

Time of the CSI's demise: August, 1st 2005. R.I.P

William :(

[e-RICHIE]

Because a bike that's never ridden isn't a bike, just like a gun that's never shot isn't a gun. They are objects that you look at. Serotta is in the business of making rideable bikes. <cut>



whoa.
where are the bounderies? who sets them?
i may never ride my nagasawa. i will never ride
my two italian 1971 masis. you may have a race
bike and never race. you may race and never
upgrade. this is a slippery slope. why is anyone
concerned about how another spends his money?
e-RICHIE©™®

[JohnS]

whoa.
where are the bounderies? who sets them?
i may never ride my nagasawa. i will never ride
my two italian 1971 masis. you may have a race
bike and never race. you may race and never
upgrade. this is a slippery slope. why is anyone
concerned about how another spends his money?
e-RICHIE©™®
I guess no one is entitled to opinions around here unless it agrees with the groupthink. Let's chant "steel is real, steel is real!" Do you all love me now? I didn't think so!

[flydhest]

. . . actually, as it turns out, I'm the one who gets to set the boundaries. I was watching TV quite late this weekend. There was an infomercial and, because I didn't wait, but acted then, I was able to buy the right to set all the boundaries of what is good and proper in this world. I bought it for $49.99 despite the fact that it's a $70 value.

[pjm]

Put the paddles down, stop massaging it's Top tube and turn off the really expensive machine that goes BING! Ben called it.

Time of the CSI's demise: August, 1st 2005. R.I.P

William :(
http://www.intriguing.com/mp/sounds.asp
Fifth one from the bottom.

[Roy E. Munson]

I guess no one is entitled to opinions around here unless it agrees with the groupthink. Let's chant "steel is real, steel is real!" Do you all love me now? I didn't think so!

I bet Climb does!! :D

[JohnS]

. . . actually, as it turns out, I'm the one who gets to set the boundaries. I was watching TV quite late this weekend. There was an infomercial and, because I didn't wait, but acted then, I was able to buy the right to set all the boundaries of what is good and proper in this world. I bought it for $49.99 despite the fact that it's a $70 value.
Ignore the man behind the economic growth chart! I am the Wizard!!!

[Climb01742]

johnS and i are picking out china patterns as we speak. :p

[e-RICHIE]

I guess no one is entitled to opinions around here unless it agrees with the groupthink. Let's chant "steel is real, steel is real!" Do you all love me now? I didn't think so!


we're all opinionated. it's contagious.

but why isn't a bike a bike if it's not ridden,
or a gun not a gun if not fired?

[JohnS]

we're all opinionated. it's contagious.

but why isn't a bike a bike if it's not ridden,
or a gun not a gun if not fired?
Here's my take on it. Tools (in the widest sense) are made to perform a given task. Anything else is just gravy. A bike frame that's just going to hang on the wall can be made of potmetal. It doesn't have to be compliant or even have aligned tubes. How many of you have been to carshows where some of the cars have been overrestored? They go so far as to chrome the brake surfaces. But the owner won't actually drive it because it might get dirty. Richie, I know you're a fan of English double rifles. Many are works of art. Some, so much so, that the owner never even shoots it or takes it hunting. It's just a hunk of steel and walnut then , not a tool. Same thing with bikes. If you buy it just to collect it, where is the pleasure of it? You never feel how it responds to you in a standing climb or a curving 45mph descent. You might as well buy a painting, something that's made for hanging on a wall and looking at.

[TomP]

I would buy one.
TomP

[csb]

but why isn't a bike a bike if it's not ridden,
or a gun not a gun if not fired?

has a tree ever fallen, in the presence of a person, and not made a sound?

[e-RICHIE]

has a tree ever fallen, in the presence of a person, and not made a sound?


if it's a walnut tree, it sounds like a
unused shotgun being fired for the
first time.

[csb]

if it's a walnut tree, it sounds like a
unused shotgun being fired for the
first time.

the wad felt 'round the world?

[e-RICHIE]

the wad felt 'round the world?


only <if> one is capable of feeling.

[csb]

only <if> one is capable of feeling.

a sad , yet true aspect of the human condition, which by the
way may be helped by the use of a power meter, so i am told.

[H.Frank Beshear]

Thats a different John (he's dead now) A walnut tree doesn't sound like a shotgun but it might make really nice stock. I sorta agree with JohnS on this but I'm not a collector. (Sorry E-Richie) I'd ride em. My mind doesn't wrap around the hang em on the wall theory. I'd like a pre-64 M-70 257 roberts and h*ll ya I'm going to shoot it. :D John and I aren't collectors, else I had a mint E-Richisimo stored in the basement, where it doesn't belong. It was made to be ridden, harder and faster than I am capable of. :crap: I can't shoot a pre -64 to its fullest either :crap: :crap: My heart rate is way to high. Someday I hope to own both, and I will use them, to the best of my abilities not theirs. Frank

[e-RICHIE]

<snip>My mind doesn't wrap around the hang em on the wall theory.<cut>


i am not encouraging anyone to think that
a bicycle ought not be used, but i still believe
that it would be a bicycle nonetheless as long
as the steward of it wanted it and appreciated
it. if you have ever bought something that was
more than you needed to have, be it as mundane
as a brand of food rather than the generic equiviliant,
you are the equal of someone who indulges them-
self in our hobby. mind you, in my professional
life i know of no clients who treat my work that
way, but i am open-minded enough to allow
that they do have the right to buy simply for
the pleasure of it - as i did with my nagasawa.

[jfwatkins]

situation: we paid more to buy steel from a small operation is that we were willing to pay for mystique (e.g., "we do old-school work," serotta "family" vibe) as well as personal preference and superior value (ride/$$) vs. custom Ti/carbon.

complication: they have the new plant to pay down. plus Ti is easier to market to rich yuppies. serotta has higher margins (less hand work) on more expensive ti bikes, so the profit per bike is LOTS higher. and as the sales drop, columbus is probably killing them on the custom tube sets. so the business logic seems clear for deep-sixing what is becoming a niche product.

resolution: my next bike may be from a competitor, unless i hit the lottery.

understandable...but sad. maybe I can call eisentraut...

[marle]

I bought a CSI in 2004. One of 74 lucky people that year. Could a factory support this volume? The answer is NO. That is reality. It's time to move on.

Thanks for reading -)

[Too Tall]

As if I'm interested in finding common ground, not :rolleyes: A good conversation with strong opinions is much more interesting and fulfilling. :)

Soooo, tastes great and less filling.

We have a two grey hills Navajo rug that is priceless...we walk on it. I see, feel and appreciate something truly great, inspiring and we honor it by using it. Hmmmm. Others would be horrified to see the rug used. Too Bad so sad. It is not WRONG that they are "collectors" in the sense of acquisition for the sake of having their rare and precious Navajo rug...it's just a different and valid appreciation and their posessions I'm SURE positively affects them in ways I may never know. They better not turn their backs on me cause I'll have a dance party on their precious rugs given the chance ;)

How does the viewing of a bicycle with: utility or grace or unique history "AFFECT" you? Tell me; is Twizzlerboy less worthy or right to own that Nagasawa he may never ride than riderX does to have a Riv. he pounds the snot out of? For instance? I think not. Twizzler is an artist. Look around, artists collect other artists work all the time.

Some of my racer pals. do see bicycles strictly as tools. They own a bike long enough to get value out of it and sell before it loses too much value....I really don't get it but that works for them...fine by me...what's YOUR problem????

Krikey, I can't make myself sell or throw out my 72' hetchins. It's a piece of junk. The bike was crashed and repaired so many times it barely resembles a Hetchins and the last paint job was so awful I doubt the corner stew bum would take it if I taped a pint of jack to each pedal!!! BUT I can't make myself ditch the thing because I remember all the joy and grace in those lugs the man painstakingly carved....sigh...it moves me :)

It's one of those days.

[cpg]

I bought a CSI in 2004. One of 74 lucky people that year. Could a factory support this volume? The answer is NO. That is reality. It's time to move on.

Thanks for reading -)

I don't mean to belabor the point but Serotta made other models in addition to the Csi in 2004. I doubt any one of those models, including the Ottrot, could support the factory's volume. So I don't buy your "reality." No offense intended.

Curt

[aj4e]

If I really wanted a CSi, and I mean I really wanted one as in actually ready to order one and was ready to put down a deposit, I would have my LBS call Serotta, or even call them myself. I know Smiley talked to Serotta Sales Rep Steve, and Steve said they weren't too keen on the idea of making any more CSi frames. But I find it hard to believe that they would not accept one individual order (as opposed to floating the idea of an unkown number of potential "farewell" orders) to use up what will become (or is already) obsolete inventory. They must have some raw materials remaining, it would be pretty amazing if they ran out of everything needed to build a CSi all at once. Sure, maybe they did run out of the essential parts and logistically cannot reorder them, but if I really truly wanted one, I would call up myself with credit card number in hand.

[Rusty Luggs]

A bike that’s hung on a wall remains a bike
It ceases, however, to be a meaningful bike

It retains the shape of a bike
But its attributes of function are unrealized and unappreciated

It may be admired and treasured for its form
But its purpose is unfulfilled

It has been reduced to a possession
But has greater value as an experience

[e-RICHIE]

i love the experience of my two 1971 italian masi bicycles
their lineage and palmares are fully realized and appreciated

my nagasawa has meaning as a meaningful frame
but there is a wall in front of it as well as one behind it

the above three all seem to be shaped like bicycles
and i love my possessions

[csb]

A bike that’s hung on a wall remains a bike
It ceases, however, to be a meaningful bike

It retains the shape of a bike
But its attributes of function are unrealized and unappreciated

It may be admired and treasured for its form
But its purpose is unfulfilled

It has been reduced to a possession
But has greater value as an experience

so a woman sans child is incomplete?

[shinomaster]

i love the experience of my two 1971 italian masi bicycles
their lineage and palmares are fully realized and appreciated

my nagasawa has meaning as a meaningful frame
but there is a wall in front of it as well as and behind it

the above three all seem to be shaped like bicycles
and i love my possessions

When I get my Bizen Sword I will use it...Ha ha...
When I get my Richard Sachs frame I will ride it.
When I get my Hamada Chawan I will use it.
When I get my Claudia Schiffer.....ok never mind.. :banana: