LBS Ethics

[Bob Loblaw]

I run a small repair business out of my basement. In my area, there's only one bike shop within a 15 mile radius. I live in the outer third of said radius. Anyway I had a guy, a retired grandpa who's riding goals end with toodling around with his grandkids, bring me a bike complaining of a persistent howl and vibration from the rear brake whenever it's applied.

Here's his story. He bought the bike via mail order. It's an Iron Horse hardtail with Deore hydraulic brakes. From day 1, the howl started, so he brought it in to this LBS. Their first action was to sell him a wheel (keeping the original disc) and install it, which did not solve the problem. Their second action was to sell him and install new brake pads. That solved the problem temporarily, but it shortly came back. At that point they told him "some bikes do that" and told him to get used to it.

The bike was so uncomfortable for him to ride, he stuffed it in the attic and left it for two years before hearing about me.

Am I wrong to be appalled? I get that there's no love among the LBS community for mail order bikes, but the first sentence out of their mouths should have included the words "manufacturer's warranty." And selling this guy a wheel? To resolve a disc brake issue? I am trying to come up with a relationship between wheel and noise, and the best I can come up with is some heat-related bearing thing, (which it is not because I can replicate it in the stand.)

Furthermore, I am not the world's smartest guy, but before he was even done talking I was thinking "fluid leak," which turns out to be an accurate diagnosis.

Either this LBS, considered the go-to shop in the area for serious cycling, purposely screwed this guy, or they were unconscionably negligent.

My question is, how much, if any, of this should I tell the customer? He is already disgusted with them, but assumes they made an honest effort. This is not the first time I have seen this kind of thing from this LBS.

BL

[sc53]

BobLobLaw--I would tell him enough so that he can return to that bike shop and voice an intelligible complaint. If they did not want to work on a bike that wasn't purchased at their shop, they should have (politely) told him so. Their diagnosis was worthless and their fixes expensive and irrelevant. The shop owner should know about this, in case he wants to improve customer service for others.

[Germany_chris]

I wouldn't tell the customer anything, I'd probably just fix the bike gratis to get him on the road. You probably in a small town so when I saw the owner of the shop on the road/trail one day I'd bring it up along with other customer complaints.

[BobbyJones]

I'd tell the guy it was a simple fix and the other work was completely unecessary.

I don't know if its worldwide, but there's a big problem in this country with incompetence and dishonesty at all levels.

It's gotten so bad we somehow accept the incompetence and dishonesty as the standard and celebrate/elevate those who plain ol' know how to do their job.

[AngryScientist]

you tell the customer the truth about what you found. he deserves to know so he can avoid the place.

[Bob Loblaw]

I like the idea here, but unfortunately it's not a matter of a turn of the wrench. The leak is at the caliper (Shimano Deore), and it's non-rebuildable. As a result it's a $100 fix including my time.

BL

I wouldn't tell the customer anything, I'd probably just fix the bike gratis to get him on the road. You probably in a small town so when I saw the owner of the shop on the road/trail one day I'd bring it up along with other customer complaints.

[Louis]

you tell the customer the truth about what you found. he deserves to know so he can avoid the place.

I agree, this is the best policy here and almost always is.

(Except for cases when your wife asks for your opinion on a given dress, hairdo, etc.)

[Bob Loblaw]

I am leaning in this direction. I hate to badmouth the place, but this is over the line.

you tell the customer the truth about what you found. he deserves to know so he can avoid the place.

[rice rocket]

Tell him. And others. That's inexcusable.

[Germany_chris]

If I had a used one laying around I'd put that on..but 100 plus the last repairs you probably getting close to the price of the bike new..Bu I agree you can't bite $100 in parts..but show him the leak, I would assume it's leaking from around the piston hence the wailing break.

[Ralph]

Sometimes when I'm not sure what to do about a situation, I just remember to fall back on the truth.

However....there are best ways to do that. Just facts, no judgements.

[Louis]

And others.

You have to be judicious about doing this. For me, folks who go around blatantly bad-mouthing their competition don't have a lot of credibility either. Plus, there's no sense in getting folks over there all p-o'd at you should your comments get back to them.

[cmg]

did you replace the leaking unrepairable Shimano Deore with something that is better and repairable? if you did, then your shop has value. if you replaced with another Deore, then not such a high score. Who cares what the LBS did. Make a comment that some shops don't like to repair mail order bikes and leave it at that.

[vqdriver]

two years on?
just focus on the problem and take care of the customer to get him back on the bike. as for the shop, once you tell him what the real issue is, he'll piece together that the wheel was unnecessary. let him deal with the shop how he wants.

[AgilisMerlin]

if the caliper is leaking any oil, at all, and getting on the pads - which then sheen the rotor, then the breaking sucks bigtime. Sometimes causing a nice shuttering howl. But who knows this might not be the problem.

Some bike shops suck. It happens

And sometimes new bikes and their pads are already soaking in oily goodness

[bargainguy]

I'll pony up my experience from working in the town I just moved from. There, I rebuilt bikes on the side. I had lots of opportunities to bad mouth other shops, rebuilders, etc. and never did. Here's why.

Anytime you bad mouth anyone else, you artificially inflate yourself and whatever you're doing -- the implication is that you are superior. Bad idea if you want to maintain street cred. When I hear someone doing this, I don't walk away -- I run.

There is a way to tell the truth here without bad mouthing. This is what I would say.

"Your bike most likely had a problem from the factory. While the internet is often competitive on price, when buying there you don't have anyone in your corner if something goes wrong. Sometimes buying locally makes more sense because the local retailer wants your business and is willing to go farther to make the situation right.

I'd look at other causes of howl than just the offending part, because sometimes it's not one part that makes the noise, it's what the entire bike does to make the noise."

You're not dissing anyone (except maybe buying over the internet by inference, but I think everyone recognizes this paradigm when presented like this) and you're not telling the guy what to do, you're only saying what you would do. Now he can decide whether you're worth his business, whether he made the right choice, etc.

Don

[Ahneida Ride]

you tell the customer the truth about what you found. he deserves to know so he can avoid the place.

Amen !

[oldpotatoe]

I'll pony up my experience from working in the town I just moved from. There, I rebuilt bikes on the side. I had lots of opportunities to bad mouth other shops, rebuilders, etc. and never did. Here's why.

Anytime you bad mouth anyone else, you artificially inflate yourself and whatever you're doing -- the implication is that you are superior. Bad idea if you want to maintain street cred. When I hear someone doing this, I don't walk away -- I run.

There is a way to tell the truth here without bad mouthing. This is what I would say.

"Your bike most likely had a problem from the factory. While the internet is often competitive on price, when buying there you don't have anyone in your corner if something goes wrong. Sometimes buying locally makes more sense because the local retailer wants your business and is willing to go farther to make the situation right.

I'd look at other causes of howl than just the offending part, because sometimes it's not one part that makes the noise, it's what the entire bike does to make the noise."

You're not dissing anyone (except maybe buying over the internet by inference, but I think everyone recognizes this paradigm when presented like this) and you're not telling the guy what to do, you're only saying what you would do. Now he can decide whether you're worth his business, whether he made the right choice, etc.

Don

I see it about Campagnolo all the time...RH lever with a LH part in it, a Record lever w/o the delrin guide for the cable...a set of ERGO with ERGO brain where they took the thru bolts out thinking it would hit the ERGO brain guts..

Point out what's obvious, make it work and the customer can figure out the 'other' shop is FOS.

Nothing brings them back with proper, good, accurate, fairly priced work, whether it's to fix another bike shops mistake or just doing the work.

[veggieburger]

you tell the customer the truth about what you found...

...then he can go back with the wheel he didn't actually need and request that they eat some of the $$ on a new caliper.

[tiretrax]

Don't diss the other shop. The leak may have developed while it was overheating in the attic during the last few summers. Just report your diagnosis and give him an estimate. Replacing the Deore with another Deore is not the worst thing in the world, but I'd give him options on other manufacturers.

[jr59]

I think I would simply tell the truth.

No need to bad mouth any place else.
Just show him what you found, tell him the price and let him decide.

More than likely, he will figure things out!

[EricEstlund]

Here's his story.

Those are the key words.

Tell him objectively what you found and could fix with the bike as presented to you. All of the rest of the narrative is based on his perspective, and it's impossible for you to assess the interactions at a different shop after the fact. Don't try- who knows what really happened, and even more importantly, it shouldn't impact the service you provide him.

[AgilisMerlin]

well, if it is a leaking, you would want to find out if it is a housing problem or the caliper. figure out what needs to be replaced. Then bleed kit.....blah blah blah

If this was cable actuated caliper, not so much brain power is needed, I digress

[peanutgallery]

2 years on is a lot of room for things to have happened and I have always found customers that withhold info intentionally (or unintentionally). Just riding along stories. Who knows what was originally wrong with the ride when it was brought to the shop? Bike was shipped and it is not uncommon to have an issue revolving around that topic, maybe the wheel was trashed. his opportunity to rag was when he paid the money and the bike was still not working properly, not 2 years later

I would keep it at, "don't know how it got like this - but this is what I figured out and this is how much it will cost to fix"

bad mouthing competition never gets you anywhere in the long run

[Ti Designs]

Focus on what you do, do the best job you can, always be fair to both yourself and the customer. The bike biz is a rat hole to work in as soon as you start to second guess the ethics and competence of the other guy.

I've been at the bike shop for over 25 years, I've seen a lot in that time. Years ago one of our mechanics used 3/16" bearings instead of 7/32", which made the axle stick out past the locknut too far and kept the QR from holding the wheel. The mechanic ground down the axle. I was outraged, why would we let a mechanic who doesn't know the difference between Campy and Shimano work on a bike like this? It took all the self control I had, but I replaced the axle, used the right bearings and made it right - the customer never knew.

Now I do fittings. I also use the Spin bikes at my gym for out of the saddle climbing practice. I see the Spin instructors setting people up so badly it hurts, but it's just not my job to say anything. I'm so glad they turn the lights off for those classes...

[charliedid]

Those are the key words.

Tell him objectively what you found and could fix with the bike as presented to you. All of the rest of the narrative is based on his perspective, and it's impossible for you to assess the interactions at a different shop after the fact. Don't try- who knows what really happened, and even more importantly, it shouldn't impact the service you provide him.

Yep.

[Bob Loblaw]

Thanks for all the thoughtful replies.

I think I will lay it out for him as far as I can without speculating; eg, the problem is a leaky caliper. The pads are now contaminated with mineral oil and that is the cause of the symptoms. I found no issue with the wheel or rotor.

Just because I don't know when to zip it, I might add a cautionary note about buying bikes over the Internet.

BL

[oldpotatoe]

Thanks for all the thoughtful replies.

I think I will lay it out for him as far as I can without speculating; eg, the problem is a leaky caliper. The pads are now contaminated with mineral oil and that is the cause of the symptoms. I found no issue with the wheel or rotor.

Just because I don't know when to zip it, I might add a cautionary note about buying bikes over the Internet.

BL

For the internet, ya pay for what ya get. If it works, great but......big but.

Customer with 2009 ERGO, running change for the new 'spools' that don't drag on the lever body..actually a warranty item. Levers had the wee bar code thing partially scratched off..sorry, charlie, no warranty...

Customer was 'not happy', got the things from a southern UK web based MO company..ohh well....

I fixed, new spools, no warranty tho....

[Bob Loblaw]

Yep. Buying over the Internet is great. Except when it sucks.

BL

For the internet, ya pay for what ya get. If it works, great but......big but.

Customer with 2009 ERGO, running change for the new 'spools' that don't drag on the lever body..actually a warranty item. Levers had the wee bar code thing partially scratched off..sorry, charlie, no warranty...

Customer was 'not happy', got the things from a southern UK web based MO company..ohh well....

I fixed, new spools, no warranty tho....

[BumbleBeeDave]

2 years on is a lot of room for things to have happened and I have always found customers that withhold info intentionally (or unintentionally). Just riding along stories. Who knows what was originally wrong with the ride when it was brought to the shop? Bike was shipped and it is not uncommon to have an issue revolving around that topic, maybe the wheel was trashed. his opportunity to rag was when he paid the money and the bike was still not working properly, not 2 years later

I would keep it at, "don't know how it got like this - but this is what I figured out and this is how much it will cost to fix"

bad mouthing competition never gets you anywhere in the long run

+1 . . . well said and good advice. :beer:

BBD

[dekindy]

I can't fathom why anyone would advise you to "fix it for free".

Quick story. I have a second cousin who is my parent's age. He was a computer guy for Blue Cross/Blue Shield and I considered him a sharp guy. Well into retirement, he purchased a pickup or suv, not sure which. He told my Mom that they did not realize it was 4-wheel drive until after they got the vehicle home. The point of my story is that older people aren't always as savvy as they once were or have gotten to the point that they are not worried about the details.

I would deal with the now. All you need to do is a quality repair, charge a fair price, and make sure you have him on your contact list to keep in touch. Everything else is just noise. Who knows if what he told you is even accurate?

As far as bad mouthing the other shop, the customer is either smart enough to evaluate where to take his business or he is not. I don't think your words will matter or if they have any effect could be negative.

[toaster]

Be the hero not the tattle-tale.

[merlinmurph]

I'll pony up my experience from working in the town I just moved from. There, I rebuilt bikes on the side. I had lots of opportunities to bad mouth other shops, rebuilders, etc. and never did. Here's why.

Anytime you bad mouth anyone else, you artificially inflate yourself and whatever you're doing -- the implication is that you are superior. Bad idea if you want to maintain street cred. When I hear someone doing this, I don't walk away -- I run.

There is a way to tell the truth here without bad mouthing. This is what I would say.

"Your bike most likely had a problem from the factory. While the internet is often competitive on price, when buying there you don't have anyone in your corner if something goes wrong. Sometimes buying locally makes more sense because the local retailer wants your business and is willing to go farther to make the situation right.

I'd look at other causes of howl than just the offending part, because sometimes it's not one part that makes the noise, it's what the entire bike does to make the noise."

You're not dissing anyone (except maybe buying over the internet by inference, but I think everyone recognizes this paradigm when presented like this) and you're not telling the guy what to do, you're only saying what you would do. Now he can decide whether you're worth his business, whether he made the right choice, etc.

Don

Exactly - saved me from some typing.

I would make no judgements about the LBS unless you knew their side of the story. Yup, they look like crooks, but until you know the full story, I'd refrain from any harsh judgement. And even if I knew the whole story, I would carefully phrase my words and not bad mouth anybody.

Murph

[10-4]

Those are the key words.

Tell him objectively what you found and could fix with the bike as presented to you. All of the rest of the narrative is based on his perspective, and it's impossible for you to assess the interactions at a different shop after the fact. Don't try- who knows what really happened, and even more importantly, it shouldn't impact the service you provide him.

This would be my advice as well. You don't have any way of knowing exactly what went on before, and it's not your job to know.

Diagnose the current issue, present customer with options. Unfortunately whatever happened previously isn't your problem or of your concern. Hopefully the customer learned his lesson (the hard way) to not go back.

I can excuse the shop once, but not twice. From this guy's story they screwed up twice, and went straight to selling stuff rather than trying to get to the source of the issue.

It's sad, but there are bad shops everywhere with undereducated people working. But there are good shops too, hopefully the good shops eventually win out.

[Dr. Sparrow]

You should tell him the truth. Only problem you don't have a clue what the "truth" is.

Fix his bike, charge him a fair price and skip the Fn Drama.

[AgilisMerlin]

seems to be a universal truth

with oily pads - new pads and new rotor. will save you headache in future :D

[pdmtong]

This would be my advice as well. You don't have any way of knowing exactly what went on before, and it's not your job to know.

Diagnose the current issue, present customer with options. Unfortunately whatever happened previously isn't your problem or of your concern. Hopefully the customer learned his lesson (the hard way) to not go back.

I can excuse the shop once, but not twice. From this guy's story they screwed up twice, and went straight to selling stuff rather than trying to get to the source of the issue.

It's sad, but there are bad shops everywhere with undereducated people working. But there are good shops too, hopefully the good shops eventually win out.


+1 on this. I would fix what I see. Period. Any offering of an opinion on the shop is speculation, and I dont see any good coming of it. This is a situation in which hopefully everything is now self-evident to the customer.

If the shop had undereducated people working, then in fact they may actually have been doing what they thought best. No malice intended.

I had a guy come out to look at the elctronics in my washer. He said it was one thing but I could tell by the diagnostic approach he really didnt know what he was doing. was he intentionally trying to screw me or was he doing the best that he could given what he knew? Got another guy to come out and bingo problem identifed and resolved. It happens. Service people are not all equally competent.

What is too bad is the LBS is the only game in town for 15 miles...

[Germany_chris]

I can't fathom why anyone would advise you to "fix it for free".

Quick story. I have a second cousin who is my parent's age. He was a computer guy for Blue Cross/Blue Shield and I considered him a sharp guy. Well into retirement, he purchased a pickup or suv, not sure which. He told my Mom that they did not realize it was 4-wheel drive until after they got the vehicle home. The point of my story is that older people aren't always as savvy as they once were or have gotten to the point that they are not worried about the details.

I would deal with the now. All you need to do is a quality repair, charge a fair price, and make sure you have him on your contact list to keep in touch. Everything else is just noise. Who knows if what he told you is even accurate?

As far as bad mouthing the other shop, the customer is either smart enough to evaluate where to take his business or he is not. I don't think your words will matter or if they have any effect could be negative.

Because I'm inclined to help people who've had a bad go round, especially with folks in my industry. Older people tend to get thought of as prey not customers..Karma maybe

[Dr. Sparrow]

Because I'm inclined to help people who've had a bad go round, especially with folks in my industry. Older people tend to get thought of as prey not customers..Karma maybe

Maybe you should send the OP a check to cover the cost.

[dekindy]

Because I'm inclined to help people who've had a bad go round, especially with folks in my industry. Older people tend to get thought of as prey not customers..Karma maybe

If I were doing it part-time or as a hobby, maybe, but not if it is my business. Everybody comes in with a sad story. You have to be objective or you will not make any money.

[Germany_chris]

If I were doing it part-time or as a hobby, maybe, but not if it is my business. Everybody comes in with a sad story. You have to be objective or you will not make any money.

That may be true, I dunno..I just feel bad for the customer in the OP's post it just seems like someone did him wrong..