New frame choice

[Matthew]

I am looking to purchase a new frame in a year or so. I would like to stay with ti as I really like my Concours. I am seriously looking at Moots and wonder if any of you have one and what your thoughts are on them. Since I have a Concours would it make sense to check out a Legend? Any thoughts on Seven's Axiom and IF's ti Crown jewel would be appreciated too. I am sure this thread has been covered a 1000 times but I am really looking for some unbiased opinions on these frames in particular. This new frame purchase sure can drive a guy nuts. I ride a 54 Serotta and am thinking of going with a compact geometry for my new ride. So far I am leaning Moots, Seven, IF, then Serotta as I have one already. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Matthew.

[JohnS]

Seeing as this is a Serotta forum, I don't think you'll get many "unbiased" opinions since the word "opinion" itself points toward subjectivity.

[saab2000]

They're all good. But if you already have a Ti bike, why not try something different? I guess most people seem to like their Ottrotts.

Also, this is the Serotta forum and most people are pretty loyal here. I don't have one, but that's a whole 'nuther story.

There are lots of riders here who have the brands you mention and seem to like them too. I think a top bike like Serotta or IF or Moots is pretty much going to be the same level of quality. Comes down to design, fit, construction, service, etc. Probably can't really go wrong with any of them. But if you are talking new bike and have the coin, I personally would be checking out the Ottrott.

[Matthew]

They are just so expensive. $5000 fora frame is probably just too much. I understand this is a Serotta forum but I am only looking for thoughts from those that may happen to own the brands I mentioned. I know a lot of the members here own more that one ride and was hoping to get some feedback on those bikes. I have something different in a Trek 5500. Just don't really care for the ride or fit. In fact I want to sell it. It's just sitting around with my Serotta the preferred ride each day. Thanks, Matthew.

[saab2000]

Well, I wish I had some of the ones you mention. I know that some people here are fortunate enough to have several top bikes.

The Moots is one that comes to mind often for me. Seem to be real solid designs and I have rarely heard a bad word about them. And their welds are really good if that matters to you.

If you are thinking of something outside Serotta, I might look at Moots. How 'bout a non-ti bike? Maybe,.......... Hmmm.......



STEEL?!?!?! (in the voice of Dana Carvey as "The Church Lady")

[dbrk]

Okay, I'll bite. Have you considered a CSi? Oh, wait a minute...sorry about that.

I've owned all of the bikes you mention except the IF CJ in titanium and have put hundreds of miles on each. While there is a great deal of talk about differences and "tube tuning" I think that more is accomplished in tires, wheels, and fit than ever in the tube differences between these bikes, especially if you use comparable forks. That said, allow me to speak out of both sides of my mouth: I have owned four Legends, I think, over the years but none "tube tuned" to me so my experience of them being noticeably stiffer, in fact, noticably less comfortable than my Moots/Hampsten may be a feature of this "tuning" (though I honestly doubt it). I think Legends are the stiffest of titanium bikes and best suited for larger or powerful riders, no matter how they are "tuned." Of all the ti bikes I've ever owned the Moots/Hampsten is by far my favorite (there is no "best" or "better" language here) and I think the tubes are not butted or anything as "sophisticated" as the Legend in terms of manipulations.

But if I were you, looking for a race bike, I'd get in line for a Sachs or buy a stock Pegoretti, keep the Concours and buy some wheels and 25c tires.

dbrk

[Too Tall]

Say more about what you plan to do with this and your furture plans. Short term? Monogomous??? Brazen fillanderer???? Inquiring minds.

[Matthew]

I want a "race" bike in that I want it to be stiff but not something that is not going to beat me up. I have read where the Seven's tend to be on the stiffer side, especially with their Race line. I do a lot of training here in the rolling hills of west Michigan but do not race much. I feel I could race my Concours if I desired but I really am just looking for another bike that complements it with maybe some better components such as wheels, bars, stem, and fork. I am happy with my chorus group but may go for record on the new bike depending on frame cost. So I guess I want an all around type bike that excels at most everything. I'm 5'8 and weigh around 175lbs. I am a bit of a masher in pedaling style. Looking for something a bit stiffer and more aggressive than my Concours. Thanks again, Matthew. Oh yeah, I want to stay with ti as I love the ride and durability.

[Ozz]

If I was looking for a new Ti bike (and I was, until I found a used Legend) I would look to Hampsten. As our good dbrk subtly pointed out, they are made by Moots, but (IMHO) have much nicer graphics!

The Hampsten Strada Bianca Ti is a very cool bike...road/cyclocross/touring...it's pretty hard to classify, but worth a look.

[Kurt]

the LS ultimate, it uses shaped tubing and feels as stiff as anything I have ever been on. all the rest of the ti frames feel very much the same so I can't see why you would want to go that route - I have a 3-degree legend in a vir 58 and everything is OS but the seat stays and it rides like a caddy. The top non custom frames off the top of my head are Look, Time, Specialized and that nice little 613, what a winner that frame and fork is for the $, club prices are <1400 – now that is a nice racing frame. If I did not have my legend and wanted ti I would get a moot’s – great folks to deal with a pretty welds.

[Jeff N.]

The Seven Axiom Ti, Moots Vamoots, Merlin Extralight (2005 model)& Serotta Legend Ti are all gorgeous machines. Pick any one of them and I'm certain you'll be happy. I own 'em all and love 'em all. Jeff N.

[Too Tall]

You cast a wandering eye my friend. Want a race bike but like an all rounder. Sounds to me like you want a good bike :) Why the fixation on Ti? I think if you park your horse with any of the favs. the locals (as in we-uns) dig than you'll get exactly what you are looking for regardless of material choice. Ti, steel, bamboo...it's all good in the right hands.

I'll give you a for instance. I'm in the market for "Race Iron". A bike that will see me thru the rather violent criteriums favoured by the USCF crowd. Nothing fancy on the outside and made with B2theWalls racing in mind. Stiff drivetrain OF COURSE quick steering NOT NECESSARILY touch higher BB YES because I run 180s and whack pedals chasing you pip squeaks thru corners!!! My instructions to the builder???? See the above and after that it's builder's choice....go nuts.

Am I confident that Serotta, Spectrum, Vanilla, Twizzlerboy, Kurt et. al. and that whacky new Aussie guy could do the dirty. He!! yes.

I race a Ti Legend and no finer Ti frame can be found on planet earth. It rides like my steel bike because Serotta does not build wimpy Ti Legends. They are not super light and ain't supposed to be. Hmm can I SAY it???? Why not??? The Ti Legend is built to ride like their infamous and now unobtanum CSI. *I feel so much better.

Suggest you make a connection with a builder and go from there. This forum is a GREAT place to work it out.

[Tailwinds]

I can verify that the LS Ultimate is one stiff-riding frame. I've had mine 4 yrs. It's a '98 frame, before they started putting carbon seatstays on 'em, and it has the curved vs. the cutout seattube. I raced it a couple of years, and I think it makes a great race bike. It is TOUGH, tougher than I could imagine it would need to be. I had a high-speed wreck on this bike, and it's still as true as it ever was... can't say the same for the fork, wheels, and shifters I had on it at the time. The only complaint I've had with this bike has come recently, now that I'm not racing and my rides have become less "training rides" and more just "rides." The bike is not forgiving at all over bumpy roads and really wears on me after a few hours. However, I ride a smallish frame (53cm) and don't weigh much, so I'm sure that's a factor. Check out the geometry spec's before you buy... this bike has very short chainstays and a 6.8 BB drop... nice for some applications, not nice for others.

[Spicoli]

I commend you on wanting a racier bike but IMO if yuor footin the bill and want to race more, dont get something you will cry over as it is bouncing down the course on its bars twenty feet in front of you. Get something you can eat it on and not want to quite the game because it got butched. Alu or pumped out carb goes fast as hell and dependant on make you can get three f/f's that still costless, are lighter, and stiffer than ti done to perfection. The bikes you list are dream bikes for riding but I could never relax racing one.

Just my point of view and because a bike has toothpaste welds, does not mean it has a bad ride. It a tool that will be mistreated.

Much luck

[cdmc]

All are nice, but I vote for the Moots. There is just something about how they look that I love. Seven is nice, IF seems to be way to much money for what you get. To throw another in there, how about a custom Titus TI.

[Climb01742]

it's so hard to talk about frames. what i like may not be the same for you. so please take these comments with whatever size grain of salt you wish. agree with dbrk about legends. the ones i've test ridden were too stiff for me (5'11"/sub-150). i own an IF ti CJ. it is smooth. it has CF seatstays and when i do out of the saddle efforts, i feel a small bounce that isn't appreciated. (a bounce i don't feel on my ottrott ST. go figure.) over time, i've ridden this bike less and less. there are just other frames i own that i enjoy more. if you have your heart set on ti, i'd talk to steve hampsten at hampsten cycles. he helped me create an amazing carbon frame. i'm sure he could do the same for you in ti. if you're open to other materials, i'd personally suggest carbon or a pegoretti.

ps: serotta plug...ottrotts are lip-smacking sweet. :p

[Kurt]

I can verify that the LS Ultimate is one stiff-riding frame. I've had mine 4 yrs. It's a '98 frame, before they started putting carbon seatstays on 'em, and it has the curved vs. the cutout seattube. I raced it a couple of years, and I think it makes a great race bike. It is TOUGH, tougher than I could imagine it would need to be. I had a high-speed wreck on this bike, and it's still as true as it ever was... can't say the same for the fork, wheels, and shifters I had on it at the time. The only complaint I've had with this bike has come recently, now that I'm not racing and my rides have become less "training rides" and more just "rides." The bike is not forgiving at all over bumpy roads and really wears on me after a few hours. However, I ride a smallish frame (53cm) and don't weigh much, so I'm sure that's a factor. Check out the geometry spec's before you buy... this bike has very short chainstays and a 6.8 BB drop... nice for some applications, not nice for others.

did quite an outing on a friends, the one with the carbon stays and what a bike. i hear you on the rough ride, esp in that size - what made a huge diff for me is going with less aero wheels, velocity aeroheads and more drillings, 32 front and rear - wheels have a major impact in the confort dept in my book. I have to always laugh when someone says there ti frame is stiff - I had to check to see if my fillings were still in place after a spin on your bike, try other wheels, its a keeper

[Tailwinds]

The Toplino's I've put on recently have made a HUGE difference!

[rePhil]

Matthew,The choice is yours to make. I was looking for a used Legend when I came across a used VaMoots Compact. Finding a used one in the right size was a rare find. I will never part with it. It is exactly what "I" was looking for in a ti bike. I am also fortunate that I was able to get a good fit on an off the peg frame.
I know there is a lot of talk about artisan crafted lugged steel. But after looking at the welds on the Moots I wonder which is the more difficult joining method to master. The tig welds are all exposed to the eyes... and they sure are pretty (to me). Have fun in your search!

[Needs Help]

Jeff N,

I see you added a Merlin Extralight this year. I always sensed you had some reluctance about the Spectrum/Merlin connection. Would you care to share any of your thoughts on why you chose a Merlin over a Spectrum?

[jerk]

why would you buy a race bike from a company that doesn't make race bikes? the jerk is sure moots makes a fine bicycle but they're not in the business of making race bikes. the jerk is sure that while a certain professional called his litespeed "the worst bike in the peloton" it is wonderful for the local disease ride...if you want a race bike and it must be titanium get a legend...
jerk

[Matthew]

Moots does make "race" bikes. Their website today has a news section on their sponsored juniors and at least one female road racer. Besides, just a few years back Serotta did not sponsor a team either. Were they still race bikes back then? There are plenty of fine bikes out there that do not do sponsorships that I would consider racing bikes. Plus the highly touted Pegoretti does not sponsor a team either that I know of. Sure they make race bikes for pro's that are painted differently but unless you are in the know most folks would not realize it. From the replies it seems as though Moots has a good thing going. Thanks for the input.

[jerk]

ahem....

no, serotta was resting on its laurels and it was important for them to sponser a race team in order to not be stuck in the early 1990's. racing improves the breed but it really depends on how the manufacturer uses the information learned.

saying moots makes race bikes because some juniors ride some frames they are given or buy on a "pro-deal" is like saying black and decker makes formula one cars because some guys have belt sander races.

(wow, the jerk can be a real jerk sometimes.)

jerk

p.s. pegoretti sponsors an awesome team with a VERY handsome director sportif for those big canadian races.

[Matthew]

You lost me...

[jerk]

black and decker makes belt sanders. some people engage in spirited racing of belt sanders.

ferrari makes formula one auto-mobiles. some people engage in spirited racing of formula one auto-mobiles.

black and decker and ferrari do not make similar products. a colnago c50, a trek madone or a walser modell 5 are different products and are born of different needs and for different purposes than a moots, a seven or an i.f.

the jerk knows he is overstating his ridiculous case, but mrs. jerk is in canada and he has nothing better to do tonight than ruffle some feathers.
you need to build race bikes for racers, with whom you are in almost daily contact, and/or race or have raced yourself to properly design racing bicycles. that's all the jerk is saying.

jerk

[Matthew]

Mrs. Matthew is out of town too. I really don't have much to do either. Plus I always enjoy your posts. I'm trying to think up some catchy reply to get you to post again but I'm getting sleepy. I do understand the racing connection to building better bicycles. Black and Decker makes a fine sander.

[jerk]

Mrs. Matthew is out of town too. I really don't have much to do either. Plus I always enjoy your posts. I'm trying to think up some catchy reply to get you to post again but I'm getting sleepy. I do understand the racing connection to building better bicycles. Black and Decker makes a fine sander.


they make THE BEST belt sander. the jerk once sanded the floors of an ancient fraternity house that was shaped like a "k" when you looked at it from above with an old east german produced belt sander that was supposed to run on 220 volts. went right through the rotting floorboards on more than one occassion. nothing a little caution tape couldn't fix though, although from there on out the jerk has been a black and decker man when it comes to belt sanders.



jerk

[11.4]

My oh my, what polemics.

I basically have to agree with some of Jerk's points: if you want a race bike, go to someone who's made LOTS of race bikes and has all the subtle issues worked out. Among ti framebuilders, Serotta has probably had more road race experience than anyone else. If you wanted a really well-done cross bike, I'd go to IF. For a really good track bike, it'd be a choice between Spectrum and Serotta, tipping to Spectrum for steel and probably to Serotta for ti. Those are my personal experiences when it comes to the nuances of a race bike. I suggest you look at a lot of very dedicated race bikes and decide which attributes you need -- whether it's the ability to countersteer well, a race number tab, a top tube long enough so your knee doesn't hit the stem whenever you're out of the saddle, a clamp-on front derailleur if you expect to use big time trial chainrings, and so on.

But there's the rub: If you want a dedicated race bike, and you know what kind of racing you want to do (road vs. crit vs. TT vs. all-round) then you're looking at a different bike, and probably a different builder, than if you want to race a bit but mostly ride for pleasure. And remember that anyone racing will put 90% of their miles in training, rather than racing. A pure racing bike may not be as much fun to train on, and certainly not to cruise on. So you have to be very honest about your intentions and needs. People rode training rides for years on extreme crit bikes and probably are still feeling the bashing they took, and still ride corners oddly because they had a high bottom bracket for pedal clearance but paid for it with a ride that wasn't stable enough to actually corner fast. You won't see most of those guys countersteering the way they ought to.

Little things are really where Serotta, Moots, IF, Seven, and the rest tend to make their sales. I like the polished ti on Serotta -- it cleans up with Windex whereas the shot-peening of IF practically needs to be sandblasted to clean it up. I don't personally like the look of the Seven forks. Spectrum will provide internal brake cable routing on the top tube if you like that. Moots uses a welded-on seat post clamp, which is fine unless you need to replace a damaged fitting, in which case Serotta's clamp is more practical. Do you want a drilled bottom bracket for water drainage (Serotta has one, my IF didn not). I wish Serotta had more sophisticated paint jobs (something Tom Kellogg is really good at).

Perhaps one of the most important issues is whether you want a builder to stick with his design philosophy and give you a bike that fits you, within those limitations. Or do you want a bike entirely customized to your concept of fit and use? This forum has lots of "oh my god" editorials about bikes that have huge head tubes or miniscule top tubes, weird seat angles, and so on. Some builders will give you whatever you want; others want you to work within the scope of what makes a really top-handling bike. Most builders will go both ways to some extent, but you get a better bike if you can use their experience not just in making pretty tig welds but in making a geometry and a balance of tubing qualities that steers and rides well. I always like to talk with the builder or designer. Kelly Bedford at Serotta is absolutely fantastic. He has me dialed in over several frames, and we can talk about improving nuances with each new bike, including differentiating between a bike that's a primary race bike, a bike focused on intervals and sprint training, or a bike for winter training. Tom Kellogg can do the same. And any number of steel builders can do it.

Did I say steel? Don't knock the idea. With modern steels and modern paint jobs (and a touch of Peter Weigle's FrameSaver), a steel frame lasts perfectly fine. And you can always repaint it if you want a fresh look. Steel is a bit heavier, yes, but it races great, it doesn't hurt as much if you lay it over in a turn, and at a lower price point you can afford to experiment with your bike more. Consider this: You can buy one good ti frame with a carbon fork, or you can buy a steel frame and fork, and be able to buy another one as you fine-tune your needs and preferences. Steel frames from today's builders are frankly much better than they were twenty years ago. I have owned Masi's, Confente's, Colnago's, Pogliaghi's, Rickert's, De Rosa's, Merckx's, and other frames, but a dozen framebuilders today make better bikes. Some builders (names left unsaid) are incredible but have painful waiting lists. You can get quick response from stellar steel builders like Dave Kirk or Tom Kellogg or from the larger custom steel shops such as IF. A good racing bike won't be a trophy bike, but you'll win the trophies with it. I train on a more expensive bike than I race on, and the two bikes are quite different in purpose and design. Anyway, that's my two cents' worth.

[jerk]

My oh my, what polemics.

I basically have to agree with some of Jerk's points: if you want a race bike, go to someone who's made LOTS of race bikes and has all the subtle issues worked out. Among ti framebuilders, Serotta has probably had more road race experience than anyone else. If you wanted a really well-done cross bike, I'd go to IF. For a really good track bike, it'd be a choice between Spectrum and Serotta, tipping to Spectrum for steel and probably to Serotta for ti. Those are my personal experiences when it comes to the nuances of a race bike. I suggest you look at a lot of very dedicated race bikes and decide which attributes you need -- whether it's the ability to countersteer well, a race number tab, a top tube long enough so your knee doesn't hit the stem whenever you're out of the saddle, a clamp-on front derailleur if you expect to use big time trial chainrings, and so on.

But there's the rub: If you want a dedicated race bike, and you know what kind of racing you want to do (road vs. crit vs. TT vs. all-round) then you're looking at a different bike, and probably a different builder, than if you want to race a bit but mostly ride for pleasure. And remember that anyone racing will put 90% of their miles in training, rather than racing. A pure racing bike may not be as much fun to train on, and certainly not to cruise on. So you have to be very honest about your intentions and needs. People rode training rides for years on extreme crit bikes and probably are still feeling the bashing they took, and still ride corners oddly because they had a high bottom bracket for pedal clearance but paid for it with a ride that wasn't stable enough to actually corner fast. You won't see most of those guys countersteering the way they ought to.

Little things are really where Serotta, Moots, IF, Seven, and the rest tend to make their sales. I like the polished ti on Serotta -- it cleans up with Windex whereas the shot-peening of IF practically needs to be sandblasted to clean it up. I don't personally like the look of the Seven forks. Spectrum will provide internal brake cable routing on the top tube if you like that. Moots uses a welded-on seat post clamp, which is fine unless you need to replace a damaged fitting, in which case Serotta's clamp is more practical. Do you want a drilled bottom bracket for water drainage (Serotta has one, my IF didn not). I wish Serotta had more sophisticated paint jobs (something Tom Kellogg is really good at).

Perhaps one of the most important issues is whether you want a builder to stick with his design philosophy and give you a bike that fits you, within those limitations. Or do you want a bike entirely customized to your concept of fit and use? This forum has lots of "oh my god" editorials about bikes that have huge head tubes or miniscule top tubes, weird seat angles, and so on. Some builders will give you whatever you want; others want you to work within the scope of what makes a really top-handling bike. Most builders will go both ways to some extent, but you get a better bike if you can use their experience not just in making pretty tig welds but in making a geometry and a balance of tubing qualities that steers and rides well. I always like to talk with the builder or designer. Kelly Bedford at Serotta is absolutely fantastic. He has me dialed in over several frames, and we can talk about improving nuances with each new bike, including differentiating between a bike that's a primary race bike, a bike focused on intervals and sprint training, or a bike for winter training. Tom Kellogg can do the same. And any number of steel builders can do it.

Did I say steel? Don't knock the idea. With modern steels and modern paint jobs (and a touch of Peter Weigle's FrameSaver), a steel frame lasts perfectly fine. And you can always repaint it if you want a fresh look. Steel is a bit heavier, yes, but it races great, it doesn't hurt as much if you lay it over in a turn, and at a lower price point you can afford to experiment with your bike more. Consider this: You can buy one good ti frame with a carbon fork, or you can buy a steel frame and fork, and be able to buy another one as you fine-tune your needs and preferences. Steel frames from today's builders are frankly much better than they were twenty years ago. I have owned Masi's, Confente's, Colnago's, Pogliaghi's, Rickert's, De Rosa's, Merckx's, and other frames, but a dozen framebuilders today make better bikes. Some builders (names left unsaid) are incredible but have painful waiting lists. You can get quick response from stellar steel builders like Dave Kirk or Tom Kellogg or from the larger custom steel shops such as IF. A good racing bike won't be a trophy bike, but you'll win the trophies with it. I train on a more expensive bike than I race on, and the two bikes are quite different in purpose and design. Anyway, that's my two cents' worth.

good ****ing post. the jerk owes you at least a nickel.

jerk

[cyclesberuff]

jerk your a trip brother LOL you musta sanded the Kappa right out of the "K"
Cycles is glad to be back

[jerk]

jerk your a trip brother LOL you musta sanded the Kappa right out of the "K"
Cycles is glad to be back


glad to have you back.

high-five.

jerk

[Matthew]

Thanks for the reply. I did not think of Serotta's new bb hole as a water drainer. I was skeptical of it as I thought it was only inviting dirt, water, worms and whatever else one runs over or through on a ride. Where is it placed exactly and does this invite crud into your bb? I remember a few of my older bikes had them. Why do you think Serotta is using them now and most builders do not? Most of my riding will be training. Races will be few. I just want that type of performance from my next bike. Matthew.

[vaxn8r]

11.4. Nicely done, you should post more.

[Climb01742]

11.4, wisdom is convenient bite-size chunks! as always, well done.

mathew, to expand a bit on what 11.4 said. training for mt washington, with the exception of two days, i've ridden every day for 6 months. usually in the 2-4 hour range per day. the majority of that training has been done on my ottrott. for specific workouts, i'll grab other bikes that (to me anyway) do certain things better. but if you're training hard and often, dailed in fit, ride characteristics and honestly comfort are very important. after hard workouts, i'm just not beaten up on my ottrott. race-inspired geometry is a swell thing (and that's what my ottrott has.) but if many training miles is what you have ahead of you, think too about a bike that will let you put in mile after mile, day after day, week after week.

[aLexis]

Most builders will go both ways to some extent.

Maybe e-Richie will....



PS. Sorry to parse your well-written post for the sake of a lame joke.

[inthegutter]

11.4, wisdom is convenient bite-size chunks! as always, well done.

mathew, to expand a bit on what 11.4 said. training for mt washington, with the exception of two days, i've ridden every day for 6 months. usually in the 2-4 hour range per day.

Have you ever heard of the terms 'overtraining' or 'recovery'? ;)

[cpg]

www.bikeschool.com

Look under cycling links. Why limit yourself to the same couple of names bandied about here. Here's my recommendation in no particular order-

DeSalvo
Hampsten
Strong

Don't get too wrapped up about who's got racing palmares. Race bikes are the easiest of all designs to build. That's not meant as a troll it's just the truth.

Curt

[Big Dan]

11.4..I think we need to move you up to 11.5 or 12.4....

Great post...and great advice.........

:D

[Climb01742]

Have you ever heard of the terms 'overtraining' or 'recovery'? ;)

not all those days were hard, trust me. ;) one or two rides each week were hour-long spins, just active rest. my body reacts better to active rest, than to rest rest, cycling anyway. running...rest rest works better. cycling...active rest works for me. plus, one week each month was a recovery week. i'm crazy, but not too crazy. :rolleyes:

[rePhil]

[QUOTE=jerk]they make THE BEST belt sander.

Maybe once upon a time, but not these days.Black and Decker are homeowner level tools, not the choice of pros.

I didn't buy my Moots for a full on race bike,but it certainly wouldn't slow "me" down.
I would ask what the difference would be between a Serotta and a Moots or(insert your choice of builder) if the angles/fit were the same? Why would the Moots (or any other brand) not be a race bike? Where is the magic coming from? The torch? The glue?
And because some pro said Litespeed was the worst, do you expect everyone to believe that as a truth? Or is it the tubing/material?

[tch]

but I will chime in also. Re-read 11.4's post. Decide what you REALLY want/need as opposed to what you think you want/need.

AND... consider some other materials. You already own one of the finest ti bikes made -- why not try something else for variety? Personally, I doubt that any other ti frame will be significantly "better", so maybe you might try "different". I own a Concours and a Rivendell steel. Some days I feel like riding ti; some days I feel like riding steel (and the different fits and designs these bikes represent). If I had a lot of money, I'm sure that some days, I'd feel like carbon fiber, and some days I'd feel like riding aluminum.

Think variety: if you're drinking Budweiser, Miller ain't gonna be that much different (NOT to suggest a Concours is Budweiser!).

[palincss]

My oh my, what polemics.

I basically have to agree with some of Jerk's points: if you want a race bike, go to someone who's made LOTS of race bikes and has all the subtle issues worked out.



You mean, like Tom Kellogg of Spectrum Cycles?



Among ti framebuilders, Serotta has probably had more road race experience than anyone else. If you wanted a really well-done cross bike, I'd go to IF. For a really good track bike, it'd be a choice between Spectrum and Serotta, tipping to Spectrum for steel and probably to Serotta for ti.



When I bought my Spectrum Ti in 1991, Tom had been selling titanium frames for at least 3 years. When did Serotta get involved with titanium?

[OldDog]

if you're drinking Budweiser,


Why would you do this? So much good real beer out there....but that is for another thread... :beer: