Magura's road hydraulic rim brake

[mvrider]

http://www.bikerumor.com/2012/01/17/magura-rt8tt-hydraulic-road-brake-closeup-look/

Kinda cool looking, like the old Campy Deltas.

http://www.bikerumor.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/2012-magura-RT8-hydraulic-road-brake-caliper.jpg

[gdw]

One of the lamest ideas to come out of the marketing department in years.

[Ken Robb]

there were hydraulic rim brakes for sale at least 10 years ago but I don't remember the brand (Magura?). They seemed to me to be heavy and complicated with no real advantage over dual pivots actuated by cables.

[pdmtong]

magura did have hydro rim brakes a long long time ago and were mainly used in mtb applications or tandems. the brake here is (IMHO) a solution looking for a problem.

[Elefantino]

When they come out with a hydraulic disc brake for road it might/could be a game-changer.

[David Kirk]

I owned a bike with the magura road rim brakes way back when and I must say they were great. The real difference is they fact that they are hydraulic and not cable pulled. Cables stretch and housing compresses and this makes modulation less than desirable but fluid doesn't compress so when the pads hit the rim the brake lever stopped moving. No squish at all. This meant that you'd squeeze the lever until the pads hit the rim and then squeeze it harder to get more braking. Since the lever doesn't move once the pads hit you can really feel what the brakes are doing and they felt very good.

In the end I don't think I was faster because I used them but I enjoyed the feel and experience and that, IMO, is what really matters. I'm looking forward to the big 3 coming out with hydraulic road discs so we can do away with the cable stretch and the little rubber blocks rubbing on the rims. This will be very good when using carbon rims so the brakes will work well even on long descents or in the wet. I know a lot of folks are going to poo poo them and I understand but they will be better and that will be more fun.

I'm excited for it.

Dave

[pitcrew]

I owned a bike with the magura road rim brakes way back when and I must say they were great. The real difference is they fact that they are hydraulic and not cable pulled. Cables stretch and housing compresses and this makes modulation less than desirable but fluid doesn't compress so when the pads hit the rim the brake lever stopped moving. No squish at all. This meant that you'd squeeze the lever until the pads hit the rim and then squeeze it harder to get more braking. Since the lever doesn't move once the pads hit you can really feel what the brakes are doing and they felt very good.

In the end I don't think I was faster because I used them but I enjoyed the feel and experience and that, IMO, is what really matters. I'm looking forward to the big 3 coming out with hydraulic road discs so we can do away with the cable stretch and the little rubber blocks rubbing on the rims. This will be very good when using carbon rims so the brakes will work well even on long descents or in the wet. I know a lot of folks are going to poo poo them and I understand but they will be better and that will be more fun.

I'm excited for it.

Dave

Got a disc road frame ready for NAHBS?

[David Kirk]

Got a disc road frame ready for NAHBS?

Maybe!

dave

[thendenjeck]

blarf

[commfire]

Put me down as someone who is completely indifferent to hydraulic rim brakes. I have never had a problem with "modulation" using the appropriate pads on carbon rims. One question I have is how adjustable are these? At least a cable system can be fine tuned.

[pdmtong]

yup, once road hydros arrive I will sign myself up for a CX/winter/wet rig...dont feel the need for summertime dry, but once it gets wet...oh yes, bring on the discs...

[mjb266]

Okay, I was quick to write it off, but if you look at the article the brake has more merit. It's intended for tt bikes and I can see it as the first of a series of efforts that has the pads retracting into the frame.

[Louis]

For me this is yet another one of those "change for the sake of change" products.

But hey, if you like it, try it.

[ultraman6970]

Would be cool if the brifters could take this things.

Imagine, campy EPS plus this babies in the same unit. Nothing like hydro brakes.

[David Kirk]

blarf


I just googled this word. Lots of meanings and a few of them make the term 'Santorum' look tame.

dave

[Steve in SLO]

there were hydraulic rim brakes for sale at least 10 years ago but I don't remember the brand (Magura?). They seemed to me to be heavy and complicated with no real advantage over dual pivots actuated by cables.

These cross-drilled brake lines should lighten them up a bit:
http://kalecoauto.com/images/BrakeLines.jpg
Another fine performance product from KaleCo Auto:
http://kalecoauto.com/index.php?main_page=product_reviews_info&products_id=1&reviews_id=147

[Lorenz]

hi there – as english is not my first language you all might help me to find THE wording for that brake. words that come to my mind could be anything close to: aesthetically challenged, ugly, unsightly, nasty, hideous, homely, unattractive, beastly, deformedly, uglily, ill-favored. any help appreciated :-). cheers, lorenz ps and i really, really like magura(s)

[Litespeed_Mike]

yup, once road hydros arrive I will sign myself up for a CX/winter/wet rig...dont feel the need for summertime dry, but once it gets wet...oh yes, bring on the discs...

+1 on that!

[oldpotatoe]

One of the lamest ideas to come out of the marketing department in years.

Don't really get what wet rim brakes will bring to the TT frame/bike 'formula'?

Lighter? Less complicated? Less expensive? Better braking needed? On TT bike?

Sorry, with the new crop of enclosed, hidden shrouded cable brakes, I don't see what problem this answers. Except for the $ the team gets.......ohhhh, I get it.

[Nooch]

apparently Cervelo is using them on the new P5:

http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/01/bikes-and-tech/uci-legal-that-depends%e2%80%a6_203811/3

[Bob Ross]

Wait, Maguro?
http://www.aboutsushi.net/img/menu/sushi_hon_maguro.jpg

[Gummee]

For me this is yet another one of those "change for the sake of aero" products.

But hey, if you like it, try it.
Marketed as an aero brake for all those hidden brake bikes that are being made for TTing and triathlons. This one's not specifically for road bikes tho it'll fit.

I think they're still working furiously to bring us discs for the road. While I can understand the better braking, etc. I'm not sure its needed on the road. :confused: Least not the way most of us ride: on sunny days.

All-weather commuters? Sure
Mtn bikes? Yup.
Even some cross bikes! Sounds good

...but road/racing bikes? Not nearly as useful.

M

[David Kirk]

I think we are going to see protour team bikes running hydro discs in the next few years......the only thing stopping them (no pun intended) at this point is the lack of a hydro brake lever but those are in the works as we speak.

IMO the real reason for this is carbon rims. Even the best carbon rims, with the best carbon specific pads, leave much to be desired when it comes to braking. The modulation is bad, the braking sensitivity is largely related to rim and pad temperature (meaning that you get more braking power once the things are warm so it becomes a feedback loop with progressively more power once warm to the point where you need to let off and let things cool and then start again), the rims are often not perfectly consistent in width which tends to make the brakes pulse and once they are wet all bets are off.......not to mention the fact that the carbon rims generate a huge amount of heat that has proven to melt tubular glue causing the tire to roll off or the clincher tire pressure to go so high that the rim fails at the bead. So for the guys descending grandtour mountain passes in the July summer heat or in the cold rain the braking on carbon rims really is a problem.

Disc brakes, on the other hand, do away with most of these issues. They don't heat up the rims and tire glue, they are unaffected by wet or hot weather, they give consistent and reliable power, they don't wear the sidewalls of very expensive rims, they allow for the wheel to come out of true and still roll without issue, and they don't require that you quick release the brake to get the wheel in or out.

There are downsides to current discs - for the most part they weigh more than rim calipers but the weight should fall once companies start making calipers designed for road use (as opposed to those we now have that are really MTB calipers), they require that the front wheel not be laced with radial spokes, they work best with a 135 rear spacing (the industry will go there soon anyway so this is a small deal) and the frame/fork needs to be designed to handle the loads discs impart on them.

I expect we will hear a lot of folks say "no one needs braking this good - my rim calipers are just fine thank you very much" and I understand. I contend that while most of us don't need them most of us would enjoy using them.........and that is IMO what this is all about. We ride for fun and stuff that works better is more fun. The list of things we didn't 'need' but are now commonplace is long - clipless pedals, index shifting, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 speed cassettes, threadless headsets, cartridge bearings in hubs/headsets/BB's, STI/Ergo shifting..........etc...........but we the marketplace have embraced them because they almost always work better and that means that using the gear is more fun. All the items on the short list I just made were met with comments like "No one needs that" or "no one will be faster because they use X" and yet now there aren't many of us that want to go back to toe clips or 5 speed friction shifters.

I for one like that the stuff continues to improve and that it continues to be more fun to use. I like cool functional stuff. Will is make us faster? No not a lot. Will it be fun? I think so. Bring on the discs already.

Dave

[pdmtong]

I think we are going to see protour team bikes running hydro discs in the next few years......the only thing stopping them (no pun intended) at this point is the lack of a hydro brake lever but those are in the works as we speak. IMO the real reason for this is carbon rims.

I think Dave sums it up nicely. I'd love to have carbon hoops, but am a glue ludite. We dont have sustained colorado descents here, but we do go up/down hill a lot. I'm stuck in metal clincher land for now, but adding discs to carbon would change all that. Assuming road moves to 135mm rear, does that mean all my bikes will depreciate to zero like a 6sp mtb with u-brakes??

[oldpotatoe]

I think we are going to see protour team bikes running hydro discs in the next few years......the only thing stopping them (no pun intended) at this point is the lack of a hydro brake lever but those are in the works as we speak.

IMO the real reason for this is carbon rims. Even the best carbon rims, with the best carbon specific pads, leave much to be desired when it comes to braking. The modulation is bad, the braking sensitivity is largely related to rim and pad temperature (meaning that you get more braking power once the things are warm so it becomes a feedback loop with progressively more power once warm to the point where you need to let off and let things cool and then start again), the rims are often not perfectly consistent in width which tends to make the brakes pulse and once they are wet all bets are off.......not to mention the fact that the carbon rims generate a huge amount of heat that has proven to melt tubular glue causing the tire to roll off or the clincher tire pressure to go so high that the rim fails at the bead. So for the guys descending grandtour mountain passes in the July summer heat or in the cold rain the braking on carbon rims really is a problem.

Disc brakes, on the other hand, do away with most of these issues. They don't heat up the rims and tire glue, they are unaffected by wet or hot weather, they give consistent and reliable power, they don't wear the sidewalls of very expensive rims, they allow for the wheel to come out of true and still roll without issue, and they don't require that you quick release the brake to get the wheel in or out.

There are downsides to current discs - for the most part they weigh more than rim calipers but the weight should fall once companies start making calipers designed for road use (as opposed to those we now have that are really MTB calipers), they require that the front wheel not be laced with radial spokes, they work best with a 135 rear spacing (the industry will go there soon anyway so this is a small deal) and the frame/fork needs to be designed to handle the loads discs impart on them.

I expect we will hear a lot of folks say "no one needs braking this good - my rim calipers are just fine thank you very much" and I understand. I contend that while most of us don't need them most of us would enjoy using them.........and that is IMO what this is all about. We ride for fun and stuff that works better is more fun. The list of things we didn't 'need' but are now commonplace is long - clipless pedals, index shifting, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 speed cassettes, threadless headsets, cartridge bearings in hubs/headsets/BB's, STI/Ergo shifting..........etc...........but we the marketplace have embraced them because they almost always work better and that means that using the gear is more fun. All the items on the short list I just made were met with comments like "No one needs that" or "no one will be faster because they use X" and yet now there aren't many of us that want to go back to toe clips or 5 speed friction shifters.

I for one like that the stuff continues to improve and that it continues to be more fun to use. I like cool functional stuff. Will is make us faster? No not a lot. Will it be fun? I think so. Bring on the discs already.

Dave

Saw a post about 695 gram frameset. Disc carbon frames will have to change, get heavier. Forks too and 135mm spacing and the resulting change to the RH chainstay for clearance.

We set up discs all the time and OFTEN the caliper mount points, rotor placement, are not 'exact', to say the least. Not gonna be any different with road wet brakes.

Volagi has a disc road bike now..for like 3 years, and they have sold 160 frames or so?

Custom builders(like Waterford and Moots) can make a road/disc frame now....but have actually built only a handfull between the both of them. Will wet road brakes happen, probably altho the 'transition' will take longer and be more complicated than has been mentioned, IMHO.

Heavier, more expensive, much more difficult to set up, much more prone to problems...all for carbon rims?

PLUS the issue of a reservoir in a road lever. Pretty easy with electronic, much more difficult with mechanical. Those gizmos under the stem to make cable->hydro haven't exactly become commonplace.

There really hasn't been a genuine innovation since lever mounted shifting, clipless pedals, cassette cogs. Having 10 or 11 speeds doesn't make cycling easier, better, faster, when compared to say 8s, for the enthusiast.

"Win on Sunday, sell on Monday", mentality.

[oldpotatoe]

I think Dave sums it up nicely. I'd love to have carbon hoops, but am a glue ludite. We dont have sustained colorado descents here, but we do go up/down hill a lot. I'm stuck in metal clincher land for now, but adding discs to carbon would change all that. Assuming road moves to 135mm rear, does that mean all my bikes will depreciate to zero like a 6sp mtb with u-brakes??


Plenty carbon hoops in clincher, if ya gotta have carbon. BTW-gluing on a tubular is far easier/faster than bleeding MTB disc brakes. Installing MTB discs on a new frame makes gluing on a tubie seem like changing a clincher tire. The amount of disc brake gizmos we have to have for all the disc brake makers/models, takes up 1/2 of my employees under the bench storage.

VS a can of glue and a solvent brush.

[Mark McM]

http://www.bikerumor.com/2012/01/17/magura-rt8tt-hydraulic-road-brake-closeup-look/

Kinda cool looking, like the old Campy Deltas.

http://www.bikerumor.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/2012-magura-RT8-hydraulic-road-brake-caliper.jpg

A roller cam brake? Really? I thought those went out in the '80s.

[Chance]

A roller cam brake? Really? I thought those went out in the '80s.
Basic design layout does seem an odd choice considering their earlier HS-77 brakes appeared simpler. The aero look and cleaner lines of the new brake are improvements though.

http://blog-imgs-32-origin.fc2.com/j/s/r/jsroad/magura-hs77.jpg

[maunahaole]

The caliper is not the important bit here, the lever is. Getting the guts that can move enough fluid to move the pads in the space that is there and with an acceptable shape is the stumbling block. Hydraulics gives you a lot of flexibility in routing lines in ways that cables can bend or be hidden.

[gdw]

"Hydraulics gives you a lot of flexibility in routing lines in ways that cables can bend or be hidden."

I have to disagree. Equal at best but much more labor intensive and not worth the effort. Have you set up and maintained many mountain disk systems?

[Chance]

I have to disagree. Equal at best but much more labor intensive and not worth the effort. Have you set up and maintained many mountain disk systems?
A hydraulic line bent sharply with many turns doesn't create "friction" the same way a sharply bent cable does. And keep in mind that cable friction works one way against you and then against the return spring when you release pressure. With hydraulics that's not the case at all.

[maunahaole]

None - however, I think that you are misconstruing what I meant or I did not say it well. FWIW, I have messed with the brakes and clutch on my moto so I do have some familiarity with the process.

My point is that you can do tight bends with banjo fittings and run lines inside stuff and around corners that would make cable and housing bind.

Maybe not worth the effort or cost in 99.99% of applications, though, but for that person who wants to have the lines completely out of the wind, it would make sense.

[jpw]

I owned a bike with the magura road rim brakes way back when and I must say they were great. The real difference is they fact that they are hydraulic and not cable pulled. Cables stretch and housing compresses and this makes modulation less than desirable but fluid doesn't compress so when the pads hit the rim the brake lever stopped moving. No squish at all. This meant that you'd squeeze the lever until the pads hit the rim and then squeeze it harder to get more braking. Since the lever doesn't move once the pads hit you can really feel what the brakes are doing and they felt very good.

In the end I don't think I was faster because I used them but I enjoyed the feel and experience and that, IMO, is what really matters. I'm looking forward to the big 3 coming out with hydraulic road discs so we can do away with the cable stretch and the little rubber blocks rubbing on the rims. This will be very good when using carbon rims so the brakes will work well even on long descents or in the wet. I know a lot of folks are going to poo poo them and I understand but they will be better and that will be more fun.

I'm excited for it.

Dave

Yeh, me too.

Is there any news as to when the holy trinity will be releasing their disc wares?

[jpw]

I think Dave sums it up nicely. I'd love to have carbon hoops, but am a glue ludite. We dont have sustained colorado descents here, but we do go up/down hill a lot. I'm stuck in metal clincher land for now, but adding discs to carbon would change all that. Assuming road moves to 135mm rear, does that mean all my bikes will depreciate to zero like a 6sp mtb with u-brakes??

Some Chris King axles can be adapted from 130mm to 135mm with a quick change of the axle end. Neat solution to a future problem.

[oldpotatoe]

A hydraulic line bent sharply with many turns doesn't create "friction" the same way a sharply bent cable does. And keep in mind that cable friction works one way against you and then against the return spring when you release pressure. With hydraulics that's not the case at all.


Kink a hydro hose and it won't work at all.

To try to equate cable brake setup and maintenance with hydro is laughable and the stuff of people that don't see this stuff everyday.

Rim hydros will be relatively easy, because the hole in the fork and rear, pretty standard BUT I see hydro calipers/hubs/frame and fork mounts and that non standardization/standardization along with all the unique 'stuff' for every hydro system makes it complicated indeed.

[thendenjeck]

I just googled this word. Lots of meanings and a few of them make the term 'Santorum' look tame.

dave


hahaha, sorry. i just meant it as puke onomatopeia