Sugino Cranks....Just beautiful and innovative

[Ralph]

I must be the last person on here to see these. But to me, they sure look nice. I like how they combine the 74MM inner ring in same plane as 110 inner ring, so you can run doubles with inner ring below 34. I'm mostly a Campy guy, so wonder how durable the Shimano looking BB is.

http://www.suginoltd.co.jp/english/ox801d_main_english.htm

[PaMtbRider]

I haven't seen this crank either. I really like all the chain ring combinations. I wonder what the US availability is like.

[Kontact]

I saw these at Interbike - gorgeous.

I don't think anyone in the US is distributing them, though.


25 years ago the Sugino 75 anniversary group was one of the coolest. Too bad they didn't do a Sugino 100 or 101 group with these cranks.

[Bob Loblaw]

Beautiful.

I have been a sugino fan for years...no, decades. If this crank follows their usual MO, it will probably be affordable to boot.

BL

[Steve in SLO]

Not too hard to find:

http://store.somafab.com/suoxcoplrocr.html

[Kontact]

I've had a lovely set of Sugino MTB cranks for many years that was very affordable at the time, but current Sugino prices are anything but. I've heard that it is because of Japanese production, but the old school Sugino Mighty is nearly $300 for a solid square taper crankset. I would expect the OX8OID to be close to $500, if anyone sold it here.

[Steve in SLO]

Per my link to SOMA above, they are just at $500.

[bfd]

Not too hard to find:

http://store.somafab.com/suoxcoplrocr.html

The problem with Soma is it only offers this crank as a normal "compact" crank with either 50/34 or 48/34 rings. Why?! This is a waste when there are other interesting combos available for this crank like 48/32, 46/30 or even something really low like 42/24. These combos are the attraction of the 110/74 double crank! Good Luck!

[d.vader123]

Do these Sugino Compact+ cranks allow for a small 24 tooth chainring? Their website doesn't show that combination.

[Kontact]

Per my link to SOMA above, they are just at $500.
Sorry, looks like we were posting at the same time.

Do these Sugino Compact+ cranks allow for a small 24 tooth chainring? Their website doesn't show that combination.
It doesn't show that combination, but the 74 BCD position allows a 24 to be mounted. There might be a question of how well it will shift or what FD will work with a chainring that small.

[rjfr]

Alex cycles in Japan sells the full range of rings and colors for the OX801D. They ship worldwide, according to the web site and an email from them.

From what I have read, the US distributors are only carrying the standard and compact combinations.

http://www.alexscycle.com/

[palincss]

It doesn't show that combination, but the 74 BCD position allows a 24 to be mounted. There might be a question of how well it will shift or what FD will work with a chainring that small.

I currently have 24T inner rings on several 110/74 Shimano XTR and XT triples, and had one on a TA Zephyr I used to have. There's no difference I can discern between shifting with these 24T rings and shifting with the 26T rings that were standard on the XTR M900 triple. They all shift great. I'm using several different front derailleurs including Campagnolo Racing T, MTB Deore XT (for 48T big ring), and 9-speed 105 triple. The Campagnolo Racing Ts are the best of the lot. All these bikes use bar end shifters, so cable pull/indexing concerns do not arise.

[d.vader123]

I currently have 24T inner rings on several 110/74 Shimano XTR and XT triples, and had one on a TA Zephyr I used to have. There's no difference I can discern between shifting with these 24T rings and shifting with the 26T rings that were standard on the XTR M900 triple. They all shift great. I'm using several different front derailleurs including Campagnolo Racing T, MTB Deore XT (for 48T big ring), and 9-speed 105 triple. The Campagnolo Racing Ts are the best of the lot. All these bikes use bar end shifters, so cable pull/indexing concerns do not arise.Thank you palincess and kontact. I did notice the 74bcd so I was thinking that a 24T should fit. But your both right. I'd would make sure I have smooth shifting.

[Kontact]

I currently have 24T inner rings on several 110/74 Shimano XTR and XT triples, and had one on a TA Zephyr I used to have. There's no difference I can discern between shifting with these 24T rings and shifting with the 26T rings that were standard on the XTR M900 triple. They all shift great. I'm using several different front derailleurs including Campagnolo Racing T, MTB Deore XT (for 48T big ring), and 9-speed 105 triple. The Campagnolo Racing Ts are the best of the lot. All these bikes use bar end shifters, so cable pull/indexing concerns do not arise.
I didn't mean that 24t are hard to shift to generally, just that this crank makes it possible to assemble something like a 50x24, and that might be a problem compared to having and in-between 30 or 40 something on a triple, like you are using. And many triple front derailleurs that are mounted high enough to clear a 50 won't be low enough to drop to the the 24 without the chain dragging on the back end of the cage. That's all I'm getting at.

[Keith A]

Wow, that really is a good looking crankset...

http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/yhst-3773699254952_2185_15623636

[bfd]

I didn't mean that 24t are hard to shift to generally, just that this crank makes it possible to assemble something like a 50x24, and that might be a problem compared to having and in-between 30 or 40 something on a triple, like you are using. And many triple front derailleurs that are mounted high enough to clear a 50 won't be low enough to drop to the the 24 without the chain dragging on the back end of the cage. That's all I'm getting at.

Agree. When I mentioned low gears that took advantage of this unique combo, I meant odd sizes like 46/32, 44/30 or really low like 42/26 or even 40/24. Who would use that really low gearing is beyond me, but that's the beauty of this crank. To sell it with only 50/34 or 48/34 really misses the point and doesn't do themselves any service as why would you tie up inventory and $$$$ on carrying these cranks and then try to compete with a standard "compact" that could be found as low as 1/3 the price?! :crap: :confused: :butt: Good Luck!

[witcombusa]

Agree. When I mentioned low gears that took advantage of this unique combo, I meant odd sizes like 46/32, 44/30 or really low like 42/26 or even 40/24. Who would use that really low gearing is beyond me, but that's the beauty of this crank. To sell it with only 50/34 or 48/34 really misses the point and doesn't do themselves any service as why would you tie up inventory and $$$$ on carrying these cranks and then try to compete with a standard "compact" that could be found as low as 1/3 the price?! :crap: :confused: :butt: Good Luck!

I would! Actually I already do, Stronglight 99 (46-28)...... for a LOT less money too.

[Chance]

Very nice looking cranks. Probably should shift best with rings limited to around a 3:2 ratio for doubles, which seems to be the upper limit of most factory offerings.

[palincss]

I didn't mean that 24t are hard to shift to generally, just that this crank makes it possible to assemble something like a 50x24, and that might be a problem compared to having and in-between 30 or 40 something on a triple, like you are using. And many triple front derailleurs that are mounted high enough to clear a 50 won't be low enough to drop to the the 24 without the chain dragging on the back end of the cage. That's all I'm getting at.

I just plotted 24x50 on Sheldon's gear calculator. The two ranges are so far apart there's almost no overlap at all, so when you cross over chain rings you need to shift up or down across virtually the full range of the cassette. For a 12-27 cassette, you need to cross over as soon as you need a gear lower than 56".

In my opinion, even if the front shift went as smoothly as a 10T shift normally does, the drama of crossing over the entire width of the cassette makes this setup unworkable; but having to endure that much melodrama simply to get below 56" makes it absurd as well.

[GRAVELBIKE]

I've been ogling that crankset, but I just can't justify the cost. Would make lots of sense in a 30/42 for rough stuff riding (650B wheels).

[Kontact]

I just plotted 24x50 on Sheldon's gear calculator. The two ranges are so far apart there's almost no overlap at all, so when you cross over chain rings you need to shift up or down across virtually the full range of the cassette. For a 12-27 cassette, you need to cross over as soon as you need a gear lower than 56".

In my opinion, even if the front shift went as smoothly as a 10T shift normally does, the drama of crossing over the entire width of the cassette makes this setup unworkable; but having to endure that much melodrama simply to get below 56" makes it absurd as well.
But there probably is a point where it might make some sort of sense (46x28?) and sound good on paper, but might not shift. That's what I was getting at - not whether 50x24 would be awesome or not.

[dauwhe]

Did 44 x 30 with a TA Carmina and liked it. Will probably try 44 x 28 with Sugino PX; if that works I may eventually try 42 x 26 with a 13-26. It's really just an ordinary triple crank with no big ring.

[wallymann]

The top sugino cranks have always been on par with the 'best' in their respective niches. Sugino 75s were great, and Super-Mightys were arguably *better* than Super Records...no chronic crank breakage probs!

http://db.tt/No1Nh0PW

[rudetay]

I just purchased of set of these from my LBS. Going to get both 50/34 and 46/30 chainring combos with plans to run the 46/30 most often.

Last season I ran 48/30 chainrings (White industries VBC Road cranks) with a 12-27 cassette. With the 46 ring and an 11t cog I can get a larger gear than the 48/12, so I think it will be a good range. The 18t jump wasn't super fast with SRAM RED, but it worked. I know people that run up to a 20t jump with friction shifters.

I had one of the upcoming Rene Herse cranks on order from Compass Bicycles, but I decided to go with the Sugino cranks for the ability to run these kinds of combos with standard size chainrings that use modern ramping and pins.

I can take some pictures of the real live cranks if anyone wants me to highlight any features.

I'm mostly a Campy guy, so wonder how durable the Shimano looking BB is.

It should work with any Shimano compatible BB, so you could go with something like a Chris King if you wanted to go out of control.

[comptechgsr]

I'm a huge fan of their 75's...I've had them on a few track bikes and have even seen a 1980s Sugino 75 road set....VERY COOL and nice looking

[jghall]

Big fan of Sugino cranks. Have a few of their older 800D/Alpina square taper cranks. Beautiful finish.

[Chance]

I just plotted 24x50 on Sheldon's gear calculator. The two ranges are so far apart there's almost no overlap at all, so when you cross over chain rings you need to shift up or down across virtually the full range of the cassette. For a 12-27 cassette, you need to cross over as soon as you need a gear lower than 56".

In my opinion, even if the front shift went as smoothly as a 10T shift normally does, the drama of crossing over the entire width of the cassette makes this setup unworkable; but having to endure that much melodrama simply to get below 56" makes it absurd as well.
Although the mentioned approach wouldn’t work for me either it’s an interesting gearing proposition that may work for some if viewed differently.

You are right that shifting through the entire range of the cassette every time the front is shifted on a regular basis would be unworkable for most riders, but what if the gearing is viewed as a single chainring with the very-compact small ring serving only as an occasional bail out gear for extreme circumstances?

If riding most of the time as if it were a single ring then the mentioned 50-24 with 12-27 example could be modified slightly to a 46-24 with 11-28. That would allow riding around most of the time in the 46T. The 24T ring would only be used as a bail out when needing to go below 50 inches or thereabouts.

It may work OK for riders that don’t want a triple and mostly ride flats and or rollers with only an occasional steep grade. The inconvenience you mentioned may not be that bad to tolerate if rarely encountered.

[palincss]

Although the mentioned approach wouldn’t work for me either it’s an interesting gearing proposition that may work for some if viewed differently.

You are right that shifting through the entire range of the cassette every time the front is shifted on a regular basis would be unworkable for most riders, but what if the gearing is viewed as a single chainring with the very-compact small ring serving only as an occasional bail out gear for extreme circumstances?


I think that depends entirely on where the crossover was located, and how far up you'd need to shift in back when you made the crossover in order to get a reasonable step down. If you have to shift at 55 inches and the gear you shift to is 18" in practice that would be indistinguishable from dropping the chain, it's such a big hole. If it was spaced the way a granny typically is, i.e., 10" or less lower, with maybe 2 or 3 sprockets to get to the same gear you were in on the middle ring, and if the crossover was at a point where you were well beyond "easy climb" -- let's say somewhere around 32" -- then it would work fine. You'd only cross over when the going was seriously tough and worth the drama of a crossover plus an upshift of two or three in back; and when you crossed over you could execute the rear upshifts near enough to simultaneously as to not suffer serious momentum loss or that "I went from 50 RPM to 250 RPM - or did I actually just drop the chain?" feeling.


If riding most of the time as if it were a single ring then the mentioned 50-24 with 12-27 example could be modified slightly to a 46-24 with 11-28. That would allow riding around most of the time in the 46T. The 24T ring would only be used as a bail out when needing to go below 50 inches or thereabouts.


So with that setup -- 46/24 and a 9 speed custom 11-28 -- when you cross over from the 46x24 at 50.4" over to the 24x24 at 26.3". You upshift 4 in back to get to the 14T sprocket at 45.1". Doable, maybe; but probably not a whole lot of fun.


It may work OK for riders that don’t want a triple and mostly ride flats and or rollers with only an occasional steep grade. The inconvenience you mentioned may not be that bad to tolerate if rarely encountered.

For sure, more tolerable the less often you have to do it. For me, it'd work better if the cross over was at 30" rather than at 50", because where I ride I encounter grades where I need 30" often enough it's nice to have it on the middle ring. But then, that's a natural thing with a compact triple like 26/36/48 or 24/36/46. I actually used the granny last weekend, when the grade went up to 14-16%.

[mistermo]

And with all of this, and the apparent complexities of finding the ideal double ring setup, why have triples disappeared?

[witcombusa]

And with all of this, and the apparent complexities of finding the ideal double ring setup, why have triples disappeared?

I've got 3 triple equiped bikes. I simply find a wide range double more likeable for most of the riding I do. I don't care about gears much over 90 something inches.

For a loaded touring bike I love a half-step plus granny triple.

It's really only a problem if you want BIG gears to hammer down the hills along with a nice selection of low gears to get you back up the other side.

To your point, have triples disappeared? I don't think so.....

[Chance]

And with all of this, and the apparent complexities of finding the ideal double ring setup, why have triples disappeared?
Is this sarcasm or a serious question? Because there are plenty of great triples for anyone who wants one. Just different strokes....

[Ralph]

Sugino also makes some really nice triples as well. And also tells you what BB to use with them.

I started this thread because I think their new doubles are very beautuful and available with some useful chainrings. And there are some nicely made square taper doubles in useful rings a couple notches down from top model. To me....and I'm from the old school where we knew every combination's gear ratio in inches and were always changing around....I would not ride that way with 10 or 11 in rear. Now would just get a double with 46....figure that's the ring I'm going to ride in, and, as someone said above, the small ring would just be to get me up a hill. So something like a 30-46 W/B fine.

I personally ride a triple on one bike, and a double on another. I really like the 42 tooth ring in the middle of my Record Triple. Anything under about 20 MPH or if terrain flat, I'm in middle ring usually. Works for me, and when I take it traveling, the 30-42-53 and 13-29 gets me up and down most hills.

I use a 39-50 (or put on a 52) and 13-26 for riding around here for a daily rider.

[buldogge]

So the real question is...What's the "best" way to go about getting a 46/30 double???

I've been looking at White VBC, Middleburn, or modifying old triples.

What about some of the newer MTB doubles???

-Mark in St. Louis

Sugino also makes some really nice triples as well. And also tells you what BB to use with them.

I started this thread because I think their new doubles are very beautuful and available with some useful chainrings. To me....and I'm from the old school where we knew every combination's gear ratio in inches and were always changing around....I would not ride that way with 10 or 11 in rear. Now would just get a double with 46....figure that's the ring I'm going to ride in, and, as someone said above, the small ring would just be to get me up a hill. So something like a 30-46 W/B fine.

I personally ride a triple on one bike, and a double on another. I really like the 42 tooth ring in the middle of my Record Triple. Anything under about 20 MPH or if terrain flat, I'm in middle ring usually. Works for me, and when I take it traveling, the 30-42-53 and 13-29 gets me up and down most hills.

I use a 39-50 and 13-26 for riding around here for a daily rider.

[bfd]

So the real question is...What's the "best" way to go about getting a 46/30 double???

I've been looking at White VBC, Middleburn, or modifying old triples.

What about some of the newer MTB doubles???

-Mark in St. Louis

Another option - Rene Herse 3-arm crank:

http://www.compasscycle.com/Cranks.html

At $385, its a bit high, but comparable in price to the Sugino 801d being discussed, which includes the bb and appears to retail for about $500 with "compact" rings of either 50/34 or 48/34.

You can get rings ranging from 50 to 44 outer; 44-24 inner

Weight in at about 540g or less than a square taper Campy Carbon Record!

Finally, you get that old school 3-arm look. If you're looking for a 46/30 combo, what's not to like?! Good Luck!

[luigi22]

Wow, that really is a good looking crankset...

http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/yhst-3773699254952_2185_15623636

stunning

[buldogge]

I really like these Suginos...but...they don't "seem" like $500 cranks to me. At $250-300 I would be really interested.

I wish I had grabbed one of the Alpina 800D 'Cospea's before they were (all but) gone.

Not really feeling the Rene Herses either...at least for my Meech.

-Mark

[Louis]

I've always liked some of the TA options, especially with the black rings.

TA Cranks (http://www.specialites-ta.com/produits/crank_gb.htm)

Examples of fitting:
- Compact road (spider 110 or 94 mm)
- Standard road (spider 130 mm)
- Free Ride / MTB (spider 104 et 94 mm)
- Triple

http://www.specialites-ta.com/images_news/carminablue.jpg

http://www.specialites-ta.com/produits/crank/CarminaCtof_big.jpg

[don compton]

I've always liked some of the TA options, especially with the black rings.

TA Cranks (http://www.specialites-ta.com/produits/crank_gb.htm)

Examples of fitting:
- Compact road (spider 110 or 94 mm)
- Standard road (spider 130 mm)
- Free Ride / MTB (spider 104 et 94 mm)
- Triple

http://www.specialites-ta.com/images_news/carminablue.jpg

http://www.specialites-ta.com/produits/crank/CarminaCtof_big.jpg
Louis,
Peter White doesn't advertise these cranks anymore. Who currently sells these cranks and offers the "94" spider?
Don

[nighthawk]

Louis,
Peter White doesn't advertise these cranks anymore. Who currently sells these cranks and offers the "94" spider?
Don

http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/carmina.asp

[Louis]

I got mine from Mike Barry.

From what I can tell, TA is not a very easy company to deal with.

[don compton]

http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/carmina.asp
Thanks for your reply, but when I go to his site under "drivetrain", there is no listing for Carmina cranks. Am I supposed to know some other way of finding
these cranks for sale on his site? :confused:

[shortribs]

Definitely a more unusual vendor of choice, but TA’s tend to be decently represented at xxcycle. Of course all they currently carry happens to be a Carmina arm in 165mm. Half the fun is making sense of the language. Worth a look...

Link to xxcycle (http://www.xxcycle.com/manivelle-gauche-carmina-165mm,,en.php)

[nighthawk]

Thanks for your reply, but when I go to his site under "drivetrain", there is no listing for Carmina cranks. Am I supposed to know some other way of finding
these cranks for sale on his site? :confused:

Really? When I scroll over "Drivetrain," "Specialites TA Carmina Cranksets" is at the top of the new menu.

His site is admittedly confusing, but take another look.

Cheers!

[don compton]

Really? When I scroll over "Drivetrain," "Specialites TA Carmina Cranksets" is at the top of the new menu.

His site is admittedly confusing, but take another look.

Cheers!
I just went to Peter's site to drivetrain and there is nothing regarding "TA Carmina". No big deal. I love my TA Zephyr cranks but will probably go elsewhere for a "94" crank.
Don

[Kontact]

I just went to Peter's site to drivetrain and there is nothing regarding "TA Carmina". No big deal. I love my TA Zephyr cranks but will probably go elsewhere for a "94" crank.
Don
I clicked on the posted link and was looking at a Carmina. Maybe dump the cookies or something?

[d.vader123]

I have a sugino xd2 46-36-24 crankset on my current ride and would one day like to switch to a TA Carmina triple crankset with the same tooth chainrings.

Two questions based on that:
1. If I want to keep my Sugino xd2 crank arms and just get the TA chainrings of the same tooth sizes, do I need to get a new bottom bracket, derailleurs, etc. or is it as simple as just swapping out the old chainrings with the new?

2. If I want to swap out the entire crankset, do I need to get a new bottom bracket, deraillaurs, etc. or is it as simple as swapping out the old crankset with the new?

It would be nice to keep the mechanical work to a minimum.

Thanks.

[palincss]

I really like these Suginos...but...they don't "seem" like $500 cranks to me. At $250-300 I would be really interested.


Just curious - what makes a crank "seem" like it's worth $500?

[palincss]

Thanks for your reply, but when I go to his site under "drivetrain", there is no listing for Carmina cranks. Am I supposed to know some other way of finding
these cranks for sale on his site? :confused:

Make your font smaller and display that "Drivetrain" drop down menu again, and you'll find the link to the Carmina crank right up there at the top. If your font is too large, it's off the top of the screen.

[palincss]

I have a sugino xd2 46-36-24 crankset on my current ride and would one day like to switch to a TA Carmina triple crankset with the same tooth chainrings.

Two questions based on that:
1. If I want to keep my Sugino xd2 crank arms and just get the TA chainrings of the same tooth sizes, do I need to get a new bottom bracket, derailleurs, etc. or is it as simple as just swapping out the old chainrings with the new?


Just change the chain rings.


2. If I want to swap out the entire crankset, do I need to get a new bottom bracket, deraillaurs, etc. or is it as simple as swapping out the old crankset with the new?


Chances are good you'd need a different length spindle, so you might need a new bottom bracket.

I can't imagine why you would ever need new derailleurs for a crank set swap other than if you switched to chain rings so small you needed a front derailleur made specially for them -- but in that case you'd probably encounter cable pull incompatibilities as well.

[buldogge]

Its simply perception, and hard to quantify...

I'm a Campy guy...but...you won't catch me buying Super Record (or Record for that matter)...When Chorus or Athena (current example) can often be picked up for $200-250.

I don't see the cost benefit.

I'm looking at TA Vega or White VBC now...I was looking at Middleburn Duo, but am worried about the "wide stance".

-Mark

Just curious - what makes a crank "seem" like it's worth $500?

[rudetay]

So the real question is...What's the "best" way to go about getting a 46/30 double???

I've been looking at White VBC, Middleburn, or modifying old triples.

What about some of the newer MTB doubles???

-Mark in St. Louis

I had the WI VBC cranks and they were very nice and worked well. But, the outer ring is crank specific and you must pull the crank to change the rings. Middleburn cranks I've seen are much higher Q factor than the others, and if I wanted that I'd just do a triple without the outside ring. The TA cranks are even more expensive than the Sugino when you add up all the required parts.

The Rene Herse cranks look nice, and I actually had one on order, but cancelled it because the Sugino was cheaper than the Herse crank plus an SKF BB. Comparable weight when you include the BB as well. I also felt a bit weird spending that much for a square taper crank with unknown ramp/pins. Finally, my frame uses OS tubing, so I thought the more modern cranks would look better than the narrow arms of the Herse.

There's a few different discussions going on in this thread. Some people are just talking about ring choices, and some the cranks as a whole. The Sugino crank is notable specifically because it's a crank with the multiple BCDs, outboard bearings, and a low q-factor. If you just want the smaller rings, but don't care about low-q, there are tons of triples at all prices ranges you can use. If you don't care about the outboard BB or being able to use standard size rings, there are a few options, both old and modern, that use square taper and proprietary rings to achieve the same goal.

The price argument is a bit dumb for a product this specific and small run. Yes, they're expensive for aluminum cranks, but they are the only cranks in existence that posses this combination of features, so if those aren't worth it to you, just don't buy the crank. All of the competing cranks are around similar price range when you take the BB, rings, and such into account.


I'm looking at TA Vega or White VBC now...I was looking at Middleburn Duo, but am worried about the "wide stance".

I don't get this price argument.

TA Vega: $158 arms, $128 spider, 46t TA ring $86, 30t TA ring $48

You're already at $420 without a BB and shipping. Include a nice BB like an SKF and you're higher than the Sugino.

VBC is cheaper (on sale at speedgoat now): $196 arms, $57 outer ring, $55 inner, $33 for bolts.

But, still $341 without the BB. Again, on par, price wise with the Sugino with a nice BB.

Could go way more expensive than the Sugino if using a TI BB.

If cost is the primary consideration, and you still want low Q factor, just keep an eye out on ebay for an old TA or Stronglight 50.4bcd crank. They go for $200-300 with good ring combos pretty frequently, and sometimes much cheaper than that. If you're curious as to what a crank like this designed at the $200-300 price range comes out as, just look at the VO cranks and their corresponding reviews.

I do very much agree that a crank with a set up that supports a 46/30 or similar double rings designed and priced like the XD should exist, but cranks with these features are just all expensive right now.

[buldogge]

True, I wasn't taking BB into account...but...doesn't mean I need to buy an SKF or Phil either.

FWIW...I was basing the cost on $290 for a complete VBC and $269 for a complete Vega (best prices I've found).

BTW, I would probably just use a Shimano UN54 or a Token unless I found a good deal on a Phil.

-Mark

I had the WI VBC cranks and they were very nice and worked well. But, the outer ring is crank specific and you must pull the crank to change the rings. Middleburn cranks I've seen are much higher Q factor than the others, and if I wanted that I'd just do a triple without the outside ring. The TA cranks are even more expensive than the Sugino when you add up all the required parts.

The Rene Herse cranks look nice, and I actually had one on order, but cancelled it because the Sugino was cheaper than the Herse crank plus an SKF BB. Comparable weight when you include the BB as well. I also felt a bit weird spending that much for a square taper crank with unknown ramp/pins. Finally, my frame uses OS tubing, so I thought the more modern cranks would look better than the narrow arms of the Herse.

There's a few different discussions going on in this thread. Some people are just talking about ring choices, and some the cranks as a whole. The Sugino crank is notable specifically because it's a crank with the multiple BCDs, outboard bearings, and a low q-factor. If you just want the smaller rings, but don't care about low-q, there are tons of triples at all prices ranges you can use. If you don't care about the outboard BB or being able to use standard size rings, there are a few options, both old and modern, that use square taper and proprietary rings to achieve the same goal.

The price argument is a bit dumb for a product this specific and small run. Yes, they're expensive for aluminum cranks, but they are the only cranks in existence that posses this combination of features, so if those aren't worth it to you, just don't buy the crank. All of the competing cranks are around similar price range when you take the BB, rings, and such into account.



I don't get this price argument.

TA Vega: $158 arms, $128 spider, 46t TA ring $86, 30t TA ring $48

You're already at $420 without a BB and shipping. Include a nice BB like an SKF and you're higher than the Sugino.

VBC is cheaper (on sale at speedgoat now): $196 arms, $57 outer ring, $55 inner, $33 for bolts.

But, still $341 without the BB. Again, on par, price wise with the Sugino with a nice BB.

Could go way more expensive than the Sugino if using a TI BB.

If cost is the primary consideration, and you still want low Q factor, just keep an eye out on ebay for an old TA or Stronglight 50.4bcd crank. They go for $200-300 with good ring combos pretty frequently, and sometimes much cheaper than that. If you're curious as to what a crank like this designed at the $200-300 price range comes out as, just look at the VO cranks and their corresponding reviews.

I do very much agree that a crank with a set up that supports a 46/30 or similar double rings designed and priced like the XD should exist, but cranks with these features are just all expensive right now.

[rudetay]

True, I wasn't taking BB into account...but...doesn't mean I need to buy an SKF or Phil either.

FWIW...I was basing the cost on $290 for a complete VBC and $269 for a complete Vega (best prices I've found).

BTW, I would probably just use a Shimano UN54 or a Token unless I found a good deal on a Phil.

-Mark

Those are good deals for both cranks, as far as I've seen, go for it. If you get the VBC give me a PM, I have an extra set of the specific chainring bolts that I would send over for a few bucks.

[buldogge]

Will do... Any experience with the TA Vegas? I don't need polished on the dirt/gravel bike!

TA
-Mark

Those are good deals for both cranks, as far as I've seen, go for it. If you get the VBC give me a PM, I have an extra set of the specific chainring bolts that I would send over for a few bucks.

[mistermo]

And with all of this, and the apparent complexities of finding the ideal double ring setup, why have triples disappeared?
Is this sarcasm or a serious question? Because there are plenty of great triples for anyone who wants one. Just different strokes....
No sarcasm at all. For road cranks, as far as I know, SRAM & Campy have abandoned the triple market. Shimano has stopped making a DA triple. I don't believe there's a Ritchey triple now either.

I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with a double, but the major manufacturers seem to have abandoned the road triple market quickly.

[nighthawk]

No sarcasm at all. For road cranks, as far as I know, SRAM & Campy have abandoned the triple market. Shimano has stopped making a DA triple. I don't believe there's a Ritchey triple now either.

I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with a double, but the major manufacturers seem to have abandoned the road triple market quickly.


Campy is still making the Comp Triple (bb, derailleurs, cranks) as of 2012. Not sure about their future plans.

[Chance]

No sarcasm at all. For road cranks, as far as I know, SRAM & Campy have abandoned the triple market. Shimano has stopped making a DA triple. I don't believe there's a Ritchey triple now either.

I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with a double, but the major manufacturers seem to have abandoned the road triple market quickly.
Shimano makes triples in most road groups except DA. And since DA is intended mostly for racing it's understandable that they don't have a DA triple. However, Ultegra, 105 and other groups have excellent road triples. The only disadvantage from my perspective is that they only offer them in 130 BCs for middle and large rings.

[Louis]

Given the wider and wider ranges available in MTB cassettes, it's just a matter of time until folks will be able to handle nearly all of their riding with a single ring in front. (Assuming you can use all the cogs in the cassette.) Crazy guys already do it fixed/ss, so I'm talking non-insane riders.

[rudetay]

Given the wider and wider ranges available in MTB cassettes, it's just a matter of time until folks will be able to handle nearly all of their riding with a single ring in front. (Assuming you can use all the cogs in the cassette.) Crazy guys already do it fixed/ss, so I'm talking non-insane riders.

For road riding, I wouldn't enjoy this. For me, the entire reason why I like these smaller chaining combos is the ability to pair them with closely spaced cassettes like 11-25 or 12-27 and still have great climbing gears. For the distance stuff I'm using these cranks for I just want to be able to sit in exactly the gear I want as much as possible, and this combo achieves that. A 1x10 or whatever set-up would require way more annoying jumps in gears.

Keep in mind that a 46t chainring with an 11t cog is actually a bigger gear than a 50t and a 12t cog. So you're not really losing much high end, and the smaller cassettes, rings, and shorter chain have to contribute to some weight savings :p

Anyway, just got my Sugino OX801D, and it is amazing. The quality of the finishing is on par with the best I've seen from anyone and the chainrings are incredible (I have both 50/34 and 46/30 combos and all the rings are amazing). Aggressive ramps and pins on the outer rings. The price certainly makes more sense when you see them in person.

[don compton]

Make your font smaller and display that "Drivetrain" drop down menu again, and you'll find the link to the Carmina crank right up there at the top. If your font is too large, it's off the top of the screen.
Thanks. I'll try it.
Don

[buldogge]

Hey...Let's see some pics when you get a chance, if you wouldn't mind.

BTW...What was the real world pricing?

-Mark

For road riding, I wouldn't enjoy this. For me, the entire reason why I like these smaller chaining combos is the ability to pair them with closely spaced cassettes like 11-25 or 12-27 and still have great climbing gears. For the distance stuff I'm using these cranks for I just want to be able to sit in exactly the gear I want as much as possible, and this combo achieves that. A 1x10 or whatever set-up would require way more annoying jumps in gears.

Keep in mind that a 46t chainring with an 11t cog is actually a bigger gear than a 50t and a 12t cog. So you're not really losing much high end, and the smaller cassettes, rings, and shorter chain have to contribute to some weight savings :p

Anyway, just got my Sugino OX801D, and it is amazing. The quality of the finishing is on par with the best I've seen from anyone and the chainrings are incredible (I have both 50/34 and 46/30 combos and all the rings are amazing). Aggressive ramps and pins on the outer rings. The price certainly makes more sense when you see them in person.

[mossman]

rudetay:

how do you compare the shifting of the VBC vs. the OX801D? Just curious if the ramps/pins on the Sugino are well-designed.

I have VBC cranks with a 44-28 12-27 combo. XTR M900 FD and DA dt shifters. Works great, although the upshift can be a little crunchy.

do you notice any stiffness increase with the outboard bearings?

[jbay]

And another question for rudetay:

Can you confirm or deny that the OX801D crank will work with a King bottom bracket?

-- John

[rudetay]

I'll try any answer as much of these as I can.

Hey...Let's see some pics when you get a chance, if you wouldn't mind.

BTW...What was the real world pricing?

-Mark

Some pictures are up on my Flickr (http://www.flickr.com/photos/rudetay/6768494617/in/set-72157628918521081/) .

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7027/6768495345_328c2175ca_z.jpg

Just shot these quickly with my point and shoot camera, so if anyone wants any specific pictures, just let me know.

In the US Merry Sales is the only distributor of these cranks, so the prices listed by Soma are on par for "Real World." But, you might be able to work with your LBS to get them in for closer to Alex's Cycles' Japan price. Note that if you get the kit with two 110bcd rings and want to run 110/74 you'll need an extra set of single ring chainring bolts. The crank comes with the very nice Sugino Torx bolts.


rudetay:

how do you compare the shifting of the VBC vs. the OX801D? Just curious if the ramps/pins on the Sugino are well-designed.

I have VBC cranks with a 44-28 12-27 combo. XTR M900 FD and DA dt shifters. Works great, although the upshift can be a little crunchy.

do you notice any stiffness increase with the outboard bearings?

I won't have the frame these are going on for a few weeks and I still need to build wheels and all, so I can't make a direct comparison, but it's obvious that the ramping and pins of the Sugino are significantly more aggressive and I expect that will lead to slightly faster shifts. The rings are also very very stiff, especially if you're running something like a 46 or 44 with the 110bcd spider so close. So, I expect that to improve shifting over the WI cranks a tad. I can comment on this directly once I get riding, though.


And another question for rudetay:

Can you confirm or deny that the OX801D crank will work with a King bottom bracket?

I don't have access to a King BB to try it out, but the BB sure looks like every standard Shimano BB I've seen. Is there anything I can check or measure to know for sure?

[GRAVELBIKE]

That's a gorgeous crankset. Could you measure the q-factor if it's not too much trouble?

Looks like a 30/42 would fit on my rSogn.

http://www.rawlandcycles.com/_uls/resources/rS5.png

[njgustafson]

That's a gorgeous crankset. Could you measure the q-factor if it's not too much trouble?

According to Sugino's website (http://www.suginoltd.co.jp/english/ox801d_main_english.htm), the q factor is 145mm.

[dauwhe]

My question: do you need special chainrings for the 74mm bolt circle? Or will the usual 74mm chainrings designed for triples work?

Dave

[rudetay]

My question: do you need special chainrings for the 74mm bolt circle? Or will the usual 74mm chainrings designed for triples work?

Dave

From what I can tell MOST standard "flat" chainrings will work for either position. The outer 46 ring has machined lips for the bolts to rest in on both the inside and outside of the chainring, but the 50t just has it on the outside. And the inside rings have the lip only on the inside. If the outer chainrings don't have a lip on the inside, and are especially thick where they mount to the spider, I could see there being some clearance issues with the bolt heads and the inside ring. But, the inside ring shouldn't have any issues like this at all, and I'd bet any ring at all would work.

I just eyeballed it out with a SRAM outer (from an S300 crank, non series) and that ring looked thin enough to not cause issues. The inside lip seems to only be needed on very thick rings, like Sugino's.

Since other cranks were mentioned in this thread, I'll also note that this is true of the WI VBC cranks as well. The outer ring is obviously specific to the crank, and so are the bolts, but the inner ring can be anything at any BCD, as long as it has five bolts.

[classtimesailer]

These are the ones I almost got. Got TA square tapers instead.
These Mightys come in 130 or 110. You can get silver rings.
Alex is ok to deal with. Just factor in the shipping. (and you pay if the product is returned.)
Peter White for TA? If I want more TA, I'll order from overseas.
Jeff

[edward12]

Alex cycles in Japan sells the full range of rings and colors for the OX801D. They ship worldwide, according to the web site and an email from them.

From what I have read, the US distributors are only carrying the standard and compact combinations.

http://www.alexscycle.com/

Just an FYI - I ordered mine from Alex Cycles last week. The total cost with shipping was $384.00. I opted for 46/30 chainrings. Shipping took less than a week.

[Alan]

I have a 46-30 crank for $184 on order from Boulder Bikes who sells a lot of rando stuff.

See link at:

http://www.renehersestore.com/servlet/the-1305/Pre-dsh-Order--dsh--Assorted-lengths/Detail

This looks to be a good alternative to others discussed above. This is supposed to be in soon so I can get it on my Serotta TI frame.

Alan

[Davist]

Not quite as pretty, but Rivendell has a "wide low double" from Sugino for $146 arms plus 26/40:

http://www.rivbike.com/product-p/cr7.htm

Always liked Sugino myself.

outer ring is replaced by a chain guard it looks like..

[witcombusa]

-

[GRAVELBIKE]

I have these on my 29er (albeit with different rings):

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7394/9739465410_9709838fdc_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/fQDiKq)

Really grateful for the lower q-factor.