Semi OT rant: What I saw at the grocery store today

[CNY rider]

Walked through produce, got most of what I needed. Turned the corner past deli and along the wall with hot dogs, prepared meats etc.

In front of me is a dad and his young son. Dad is about 5'10", easily 270 pounds with at least 60 pounds hanging over his belt. I would guess his son is about 5 based on my comparison with my almost 4 year old daughter who was with me at the time.
This kid was grossly obese, probably weighed 80 pounds.

The dad was filling a cart with prepared lunches. The kind with crackers, some synthetic cheese and processed meats in a plastic container. Grabbed some hot dogs too.
Not a single fruit, vegetable or fresh anything in the cart.

I ended up behind them in line where dad also grabbed a big bag of peanut M&M's for his boy. I didn't even hear his son ask for them, I may have missed that part, but he handed them over as soon as they were rung up.

Wow. I felt so sorry for this kid. He is doomed to a lifetime of miserable health if something doesn't change for him. His dad (and I assume his mom, who wasn't there) can't be completely ignorant of what's happening. Diabetes is lurking around the corner if not present already.

I've seen plenty of data recently that this is not a financial issue; you can eat well for the same amount of money as buying artificial processed crap. The real difference is the amount of work involved to get it to the table. This poor kid doesn't stand a chance if someone in his life doesn't smarten up and start taking steps to feed him in a nutritious way and get his weight under control.

Rant over.

[Kontact]

Take an evolutionary point of view: Your daughter will have better prospects in life than the man's son. :banana:

At least the guy loves his son, unfortunate as expressing that with M&Ms is. The nationwide obesity problem really isn't about subtle adjustments in behavior and diet - many people just feed their family crap.

[54ny77]

My wife tells me this same story on occasion after coming back from a grocery store trip.

Later, after dinner, when she's knee deep into the Ben & Jerry's chocolate fudge brownie frozen yogurt (oh but it's lo-fat!), I remind her of her earlier comment....



















....and that's how I've come to appreciate sleeping in the basement!

:banana:

[Aaron O]

I'm sure no one here has bad habits and we're all in a position to judge him.

Cycling at high speeds is hardly the safest activity either.

[gospastic]

Judging, fat shaming and body policing others isn't too cool. Worry about yourself.

[avalonracing]

Yes, we all have our own struggles to deal with but treating your body and your son's body poorly is just such a waste and it borders on a sin. Why? Because there are good people who have taken care of themselves just to have some genetic disease creep up or some terrible accident happen. These people would do anything to have a working body like the ones that these other people are destroying.

Sorry to sound judgmental but I'm a bit jaded. My mother was super-healthy, worked in her yard, ate well and walked dozens of miles each week. A few years ago, in her early 60's she was diagnosed with leukemia. The doctors at Johns Hopkins Hospital gave her a drug which destroyed her liver and she passed away a year later, in terrible pain and disfigured by horrific fluid retention.

On the other hand, my father is a lifelong smoker and even though walking up stairs winds him, he won't stop. His second wife had a double knee replacement a decade ago but won't exercise and overeats so she can't do anything physical other than slowly walking a short distance.

I watched my mother fight for her health and her life with amazing courage while I watch other people piss it away. Damn shame.

[sc53]

CNY Rider is a doc and is not into judging others--I know him and know his job as a physician and father of young children prompted his rant. I could stand to lose a few but still feel bad when I see adults blindly encouraging/condoning horrible American eating habits in their young. We are an obese society, our health care costs are out of control, we are all paying for our ignorance and laziness with regard to nutrition and exercise.

[Ti Designs]

The dad was filling a cart with prepared lunches. The kind with crackers, some synthetic cheese and processed meats in a plastic container. Grabbed some hot dogs too.
Not a single fruit, vegetable or fresh anything in the cart.


Fruits and vegetables don't advertise, the makers of prepared lunches do. The guy has probably done zero thinking about what he eats or feeds his kid, so the advertising fills in the vacuum.

[CNY rider]

I'm not telling any adult how to live their life, or what to eat, unless they want the input.
But watching a parent poison their young child, knowing where that's going to lead, is hard to watch.

[Aaron O]

I'm not telling any adult how to live their life, or what to eat, unless they want the input.
But watching a parent poison their young child, knowing where that's going to lead, is hard to watch.

Your post was hard to read.

[mistermo]

Judging, fat shaming and body policing others isn't too cool. Worry about yourself.

I'm gonna play devil's advocate with this one because people's weight DOES affect me.

#1 I've been going go the Indy 500 for 40yrs. This year I had no seat because all the fat people nearby couldn't fit into their allotted seat size and crowded me out of mine.

#2 The ferries in New York recently had to reduce their maximum capacity and raise fares because... The average american has gained something like 40lbs since they ferry capacities were originally calculated. I now pay more for ferries.

Don't fool yourself into thinking that the extra weight carried by airplanes doesn't affect fares too.

#3 Whether it's increased insurance premiums, or increased taxes to cover the health problems of the obese, I pay again.

Being fat is a choice, just like smoking, drinking or anything else. If someone smokes in front of you, you have a right to complain because it affects you. If someone drinks and drives, you have a duty to prevent that. Insurance companies charge smokers and drinkers more for their insurance premiums.

As a society, we have lost the recognition that it is morally correct to police other members of our society. So why is it uncool to confront this costly and intruding obesity epidemic that is occurring and costing us all more $?

It affects us all and, in the false name of political correctness, many shy away from their societal duty of correcting this societal problem. That's a silly and stupid position.

[tiretrax]

I can hardly believe people who are on a bike forum are attacking someone for expressing his sadness in seeing someone who doesn't exercise, eats poorly, and is passing that on to his children. As pointed out above, THERE ARE societal impacts from the obesity crisis in our country. I am in total agreement with you, CNY. I live in an area where deep fried and unlimited buffets are the norm. It's no wonder that people have to drive trucks and SUV's because they can't fit in a normal sized car. I don't judge people, but it makes me sad when I see such poor choices being made and the people that are hurt by it - like the fat boy. I be he gets hazed badly at school, if not now, in a few years.

One of my best friends as a child was overweight. I moved and saw him 10 years later. He had figured out that he needed to make changes - was slim, exercised, and ate very well.

[eltonbalch]

I'm gonna play devil's advocate with this one because people's weight DOES affect me.

#1 I've been going go the Indy 500 for 40yrs. This year I had no seat because all the fat people nearby couldn't fit into their allotted seat size and crowded me out of mine.

#2 The ferries in New York recently had to reduce their maximum capacity and raise fares because... The average american has gained something like 40lbs since they ferry capacities were originally calculated. I now pay more for ferries.

Don't fool yourself into thinking that the extra weight carried by airplanes doesn't affect fares too.

#3 Whether it's increased insurance premiums, or increased taxes to cover the health problems of the obese, I pay again.

Being fat is a choice, just like smoking, drinking or anything else. If someone smokes in front of you, you have a right to complain because it affects you. If someone drinks and drives, you have a duty to prevent that. Insurance companies charge smokers and drinkers more for their insurance premiums.

As a society, we have lost the recognition that it is morally correct to police other members of our society. So why is it uncool to confront this costly and intruding obesity epidemic that is occurring and costing us all more $?

It affects us all and, in the false name of political correctness, many shy away from their societal duty of correcting this societal problem. That's a silly and stupid position.

I could not have said it better.

[Kirk Pacenti]

A good friend turned me onto this book.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0307272702/ref=sib_dp_pt#reader-link
The science is compelling.

[mistermo]

A good friend turned me onto this book.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0307272702/ref=sib_dp_pt#reader-link
The science is compelling.

And so is the science in this book. It wouldn't be an understatement to say that it changed my life.

http://www.amazon.com/China-Study-Comprehensive-Nutrition-Implications/dp/1932100385

[Jaq]

I live in an area where deep fried and unlimited buffets are the norm.

Or, as we like to say, where pork is a seasoning.

The other concern, particularly these days, is the added health-care costs associated with obesity.

A few years back, both the New England Journal of Medicine did a study on the health-care costs of smoking. The NEJM concluded that the government actually realized a net profit from smoking to the tune of (in the late '90s) about 30 billion annually. The main reason was that smokers, as a group, tend to die younger, thus paying into the system but not surviving long enough to burdern the system.

But obesity has higher survival rates, more than long enough for the associated problems to directly impact the cost of health care. Type II Diabetes, for instance, has seen an alarming increase in the cases/1000 people in the last 15 years. In 2007, the costs associated with treatment of all forms of diabetes was something like 200 billion.

None of us is perfect; as the shrink said back in the '40s, "the only people who are normal are the one's you don't know very well." But obesity is a problem, and awareness is a good thing.

[Dr. Sparrow]

I'm gonna play devil's advocate with this one because people's weight DOES affect me.

#1 I've been going go the Indy 500 for 40yrs. This year I had no seat because all the fat people nearby couldn't fit into their allotted seat size and crowded me out of mine.

#2 The ferries in New York recently had to reduce their maximum capacity and raise fares because... The average american has gained something like 40lbs since they ferry capacities were originally calculated. I now pay more for ferries.

Don't fool yourself into thinking that the extra weight carried by airplanes doesn't affect fares too.

#3 Whether it's increased insurance premiums, or increased taxes to cover the health problems of the obese, I pay again.

Being fat is a choice, just like smoking, drinking or anything else. If someone smokes in front of you, you have a right to complain because it affects you. If someone drinks and drives, you have a duty to prevent that. Insurance companies charge smokers and drinkers more for their insurance premiums.

As a society, we have lost the recognition that it is morally correct to police other members of our society. So why is it uncool to confront this costly and intruding obesity epidemic that is occurring and costing us all more $?

It affects us all and, in the false name of political correctness, many shy away from their societal duty of correcting this societal problem. That's a silly and stupid position.

Fat people make you uncomfortable figuratively and literally so therefore they should change how they live.

[Aaron O]

Or, as we like to say, where pork is a seasoning.

The other concern, particularly these days, is the added health-care costs associated with obesity.

A few years back, both the New England Journal of Medicine did a study on the health-care costs of smoking. The NEJM concluded that the government actually realized a net profit from smoking to the tune of (in the late '90s) about 30 billion annually. The main reason was that smokers, as a group, tend to die younger, thus paying into the system but not surviving long enough to burdern the system.

But obesity has higher survival rates, more than long enough for the associated problems to directly impact the cost of health care. Type II Diabetes, for instance, has seen an alarming increase in the cases/1000 people in the last 15 years. In 2007, the costs associated with treatment of all forms of diabetes was something like 200 billion.

None of us is perfect; as the shrink said back in the '40s, "the only people who are normal are the one's you don't know very well." But obesity is a problem, and awareness is a good thing.Every single person here does something that affects others. Choosing to have a child affects healthcare costs. I am sickened at the judgmental, holier than thou posts. I wonder how many of you drink more than is ideal...or gamble...or drive low mileage cars...or live in homes that aren't energy efficient. Etc.

[Dr. Sparrow]

Yes, we all have our own struggles to deal with but treating your body and your son's body poorly is just such a waste and it borders on a sin. Why? Because there are good people who have taken care of themselves just to have some genetic disease creep up or some terrible accident happen. These people would do anything to have a working body like the ones that these other people are destroying.

Sorry to sound judgmental but I'm a bit jaded. My mother was super-healthy, worked in her yard, ate well and walked dozens of miles each week. A few years ago, in her early 60's she was diagnosed with leukemia. The doctors at Johns Hopkins Hospital gave her a drug which destroyed her liver and she passed away a year later, in terrible pain and disfigured by horrific fluid retention.

On the other hand, my father is a lifelong smoker and even though walking up stairs winds him, he won't stop. His second wife had a double knee replacement a decade ago but won't exercise and overeats so she can't do anything physical other than slowly walking a short distance.

I watched my mother fight for her health and her life with amazing courage while I watch other people piss it away. Damn shame.


This brings up a very interesting point. Weight and health are not the be all, end all when if comes to a long life.

The joy/comfort that people get from food can be very significantly different. For better or worse, there are many fat people that would not choose to change their lifestyle and miss out on one of their great enjoyments for a few more years.

All that aside, it is very sad to see the fat lifestyle forced upon a kid.

[nm87710]

judging, fat shaming and body policing others isn't too cool. Worry about yourself.

+1

[Bruce K]

I am not trying to hijack the thread but what is it about the grocery store that gives stuff that really makes us shake our heads in dismay and wonder

I just got back a little while ago. Parked next to a Prius which was locked and running. Did my nine item shopping and when I came back the car was still sitting there.

Why buy a fuel efficient car and then waste fuel? I know it was 11 degrees but really?!?

BK

[texbike]

This hits close to home for me as I have two young kids. Kids at an early age start basing life-long habits and behaviour patterns on what they observe their parents doing. Whether you feel that it is a holier than thou attitude or not, I feel it my duty to do what I can to spare my kids from the physical and psychological issues that are associated with obesity. For that reason, my wife and I (I'm more maniacal about it than she is) make sure our kids have the physical activities, correct foods, and lessons about the consequences of bad food to form the better habits. We can revisit the results in 20 years if you like... :)

Texbike

[EmoryDPTT]

well said mistermo.
It is sad to work in medicine and our standard equipment such as beds, commodes, etc are not actually safe to accommodate regular patients.

There's a scary saying that is a direcet result of the incident witnessed:
"We no live in a time where kid will not outlive their parents."

Sad to think about.

[mistermo]

This brings up a very interesting point. Weight and health are not the be all, end all when if comes to a long life.

The joy/comfort that people get from food can be very significantly different. For better or worse, there are many fat people that would not choose to change their lifestyle and miss out on one of their great enjoyments for a few more years.

All that aside, it is very sad to see the fat lifestyle forced upon a kid.
Nor is smoking. But like overeating, it's a choice and there's mountains of data to show that it's a dangerous, unhealthy activity that will most likely cause health problems.

I will agree that it's not my privilege to determine what/when/and how much someone can eat.

But...
Those who smoke, pay more for health insurance.
Those who drink and drive, pay more for car insurance.
Those who drive low mileage cars, pay more for gas.

So why not make the obese take responsibility for their weight? Why is it taboo to suggest that they pay more for health insurance? If the fuel consumed by a plane is determined by it's weight, why is it taboo to suggest that obese pay more for airfare?

None of us have the right to determine how and what someone should eat. But all of us should expect that they be held accountable for their decision

I don't see this happening today because we think it's politically incorrect to bring awareness to this inconvenient truth.

[slowerthanyou]

I'm gonna play devil's advocate with this one because people's weight DOES affect me.

#1 I've been going go the Indy 500 for 40yrs. This year I had no seat because all the fat people nearby couldn't fit into their allotted seat size and crowded me out of mine.

#2 The ferries in New York recently had to reduce their maximum capacity and raise fares because... The average american has gained something like 40lbs since they ferry capacities were originally calculated. I now pay more for ferries.

Don't fool yourself into thinking that the extra weight carried by airplanes doesn't affect fares too.

#3 Whether it's increased insurance premiums, or increased taxes to cover the health problems of the obese, I pay again.

Being fat is a choice, just like smoking, drinking or anything else. If someone smokes in front of you, you have a right to complain because it affects you. If someone drinks and drives, you have a duty to prevent that. Insurance companies charge smokers and drinkers more for their insurance premiums.

As a society, we have lost the recognition that it is morally correct to police other members of our society. So why is it uncool to confront this costly and intruding obesity epidemic that is occurring and costing us all more $?

It affects us all and, in the false name of political correctness, many shy away from their societal duty of correcting this societal problem. That's a silly and stupid position.
+1.

[Jaq]

So why not make the obese take responsibility for their weight? Why is it taboo to suggest that they pay more for their health insurance? If the fuel consumed by a plane is determined by it's weight, why is it taboo to suggest that we pay airfare based on weight?

I don't have the right to determine how and what someone should eat. But all of us should expect that they be held accountable for their decision, just like anyone else who chooses to engage in any other self damaging behavior.

I don't see this happening today because we think it's politically incorrect to bring awareness to this inconvenient truth.

It's a slippery slope. To you it might seem perfectly reasonable to pay as you weigh, so to speak. But where does it end? Should cyclists pay more for health insurance since they're probably at a higher risk of having an accident?

What behaviors should be penalized, what behaviors should be rewarded? There are no easy answers, certainly none without heated debate.

[mistermo]

It's a slippery slope. To you it might seem perfectly reasonable to pay as you weigh, so to speak. But where does it end? Should cyclists pay more for health insurance since they're probably at a higher risk of having an accident?

What behaviors should be penalized, what behaviors should be rewarded? There are no easy answers, certainly none without heated debate.

First, I am unaware of any data that shows that cyclists, on average, suffer more injuries, deaths or adverse health, than the average citizen.

Second, but if it did, as is the case in other pursuits, then yes, cyclists should pay more. My friend who is a private pilot pays an enormous amount for his life insurance. My friend who is a mountaineer, can't get life insurance at all. Like overeating, there's mountains of data to show that those who engage in these activities die early.

[giverdada]

probably we are worried about ourselves. thankfully, we're also worried about others. not judging. sure. discrimination, right? discrimination is the ability to notice a difference, and then, hopefully, make a decision for action/inaction/etc. it's the reason we're alive, why we didn't run up to sabre tooth tigers to make friends, why we can read and find our way home.

one of the things i like to ask students to write about, for opinions, is whether or not they think that fast-food items (their favorites are fries and 'jamaican beef patties (enough sodium for a day of a diet, enough fat for half a day)) should be restricted. like cigarettes and alcohol and some addictive drugs. why not? high fructose corn syrup? regulate it. aspartame? regulate it. the subsequent diseases from these widely available substances are more costly on our societies and individual bodies than smoking.

and i know, the whole slippery slope thing with taxing obese people, but in terms of situations where it directly applies (like the car racing lack of seats above), i'm down. why do i have to pay as much as my ticket to bring my bike, but the fat guy taking up two seats next to me gets by with nary a whisper?

sure. we're all doing something wrong. maybe lots of things wrong. that doesn't mean that we're not allowed to have a problem with people poisoning kids. :crap:

[phcollard]

Fruits and vegetables don't advertise, the makers of prepared lunches do. The guy has probably done zero thinking about what he eats or feeds his kid, so the advertising fills in the vacuum.

Ain't that the truth! Junk food is the next tobacco. I believe McDo spend more than a billion - yes, no mistake - in ads per year!

How many ads for the poor organic banana? :banana:

[Aaron O]

Nor is smoking. But like overeating, it's a choice and there's mountains of data to show that it's a dangerous, unhealthy activity that will most likely cause health problems.

I will agree that it's not my privilege to determine what/when/and how much someone can eat.

But...
Those who smoke, pay more for health insurance.
Those who drink and drive, pay more for car insurance.
Those who drive low mileage cars, pay more for gas.

So why not make the obese take responsibility for their weight? Why is it taboo to suggest that they pay more for health insurance? If the fuel consumed by a plane is determined by it's weight, why is it taboo to suggest that obese pay more for airfare?

None of us have the right to determine how and what someone should eat. But all of us should expect that they be held accountable for their decision

I don't see this happening today because we think it's politically incorrect to bring awareness to this inconvenient truth.

Why stop there? How about higher insurance for cyclists, since they engage in a risky sport? Or maybe higher insurance for people with stressful jobs, or who chose to live in areas with more air pollution? Or who have kids with health risks?

Hypocritical non-sense.

[struggle]

I think I get what the OP is saying and we have the same issue in Iowa.

These kids will never get the chance to know what it is like to be a normal weight. They will never quite understand why they can't swim,run or play like the thinner kids. So since they don't understand what they are missing must will never try to acheive it.

I don't see this as a judgemental comment it is a fact of observation.

I am personally less then fit currently and I take no offense to this thread. I chose to stuff myself and now after todays 30 miles ride I got what I trained for with a fork PAIN :no:

[verticaldoug]

My wife tells me this same story on occasion after coming back from a grocery store trip.

Later, after dinner, when she's knee deep into the Ben & Jerry's chocolate fudge brownie frozen yogurt (oh but it's lo-fat!), I remind her of her earlier comment....

....and that's how I've come to appreciate sleeping in the basement!

:banana:

At least she didn't ask for half.

[struggle]

My wife tells me this same story on occasion after coming back from a grocery store trip.

Later, after dinner, when she's knee deep into the Ben & Jerry's chocolate fudge brownie frozen yogurt (oh but it's lo-fat!), I remind her of her earlier comment....

....and that's how I've come to appreciate sleeping in the basement!

:banana:

It's OK if she chases it with a diet coke :rolleyes: it will even the load

[BillG]

It blows my mind that anyone would criticize The OPs comment as judgmental. We have a serious obesity epidemic in this country. It leads to diabetes and many other medical horrors. Parents should not raise their children with eating habits that disastrously effect their children's health - the OPs point.

[gdw]

"It blows my mind that anyone would criticize The OPs comment as judgmental. We have a serious obesity epidemic in this country. It leads to diabetes and many other medical horrors. Parents should not raise their children with eating habits that disastrously effect their children's health - the OPs point."

+1 Enough with the pc crap. The obesity epidemic is a problem which needs to be addressed since it negatively impacts all of us.

[struggle]

Just wait and see what our disscussion will be on this in 20 years :crap:

It is getting really bad fast and it expands the world as other countries improve quality of life so goes the standard of eating when fast food enters into that which the population never had before.

[Bob Loblaw]

I am judgemental of obese people.

I am outright offended by some of the things obese people get away with. For example, obese people who use the electric carts at the grocery store offend me. I would drag myself along the floor on my elbows before I would use one of those, much less ask someone to hand me the marshmallows from the high shelf just because I am too lazy to stand up.

I am also offended that obese people are eligible for handicapped parking placards, that they might occupy space and force someone with a legitimate disability to park four rows away...that is absolutely inexplicable to me. Of all the people who ought to walk!

But the thing I find most offensive is obese young children. That is 100% bad, lazy parenting.

HTFU.

BL

[CunegoFan]

Judging, fat shaming and body policing others isn't too cool.

Why? Maybe if we still had some shame in this country then we wouldn't have problems like this. People are so afraid of offending the obese that obesity has become the norm. You know things have gotten out of hand when teenage girls don't mind wearing midriffs exposing the muffin tops being squeezed out of their jeans.

[Dekonick]

Judging, fat shaming and body policing others isn't too cool. Worry about yourself.

Yes, but as parents we are obligated to provide our children with the knowledge and skills for life. Now, for certain, I pack some pounds in winter. I also strive to make sure my kids eat healthy...

[Dekonick]

I also believe much of the blame should fall squarely on government and the food industry. The crap that we eat today was not quite what our bodies have evolved to use...

I still love chocolate... and wine. :beer:

[54ny77]

"did someone say prosciutto & mozzarella flavored powerbar?"

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_zOzbXS4oECA/S9FqpgIyykI/AAAAAAAAAls/nrUfkX7rF7I/s1600/fat+guy+in+spandex+kit.jpg

[Louis]

Parents have the responsibility to take care of their children in a reasonable manner. If a parent loaded his/her kids in the open bed of a pickup truck to drive them to school a cop would issue a ticket for irresponsible behavior.

Just because that same cop can't write a ticket when the family is loading up with all-you-can-eat junk at Ponderosa doesn't mean that what those parents are doing is right.

In one case the harm is immediate and obvious: brains splattered on the road, broken back, etc. So society puts an immediate stop to that. In the other case the harm accumulates more slowly over time and is not quite as obvious (except in the most egregious cases). However in both cases, harm is being done. How we deal with it is up to us.

[junkfood]

Parents have the responsibility to take care of their children in a reasonable manner. If a parent loaded his/her kids in the open bed of a pickup truck to drive them to school a cop would issue a ticket for irresponsible behavior.

Just because that same cop can't write a ticket when the family is loading up with all-you-can-eat junk at Ponderosa doesn't mean that what those parents are doing is right.

In one case the harm is immediate and obvious: brains splattered on the road, broken back, etc. So society puts an immediate stop to that. In the other case the harm accumulates more slowly over time and is not quite as obvious (except in the most egregious cases). However in both cases, harm is being done. How we deal with it is up to us.

Well put, is the rant judging, or being concerned? I have plenty of faults as a parent and a person, I hope that people point them out so I can continue to be better at both.

Jake

[verticaldoug]

I believe the infamous chubby Lampre Kit guy was the mayor of a small town in Italy that the Giro was coming through. He was just having fun.

I have to say the anti-fat rants are getting a little old. The fat hate is justified by people saying it costs all of us in higher health care insurance premiums etc. and burden society.

Why not just extend the argument to include people who don't study or parents who don't encourage their kids to study. The children will not be able to compete , end of unemployed and be a burden to society.

How about people who continue to have children when they can't afford the ones they already have?

Where do you draw the line? No one's perfect and to be so quick to judge.

[gdw]

"I have to say the anti-fat rants are getting a little old. The fat hate is justified by people saying it costs all of us in higher health care insurance premiums etc. and burden society.

Why not just extend the argument to include people who don't study or parents who don't encourage their kids to study. The children will not be able to compete , end of unemployed and be a burden to society.

How about people who continue to have children when they can't afford the ones they already have?

Where do you draw the line? No one's perfect and to be so quick to judge."

Weak. Identifying obesity as a problem is not hate and your other examples are problems which we should or are trying to address through education.

[robin3mj]

"I have to say the anti-fat rants are getting a little old. The fat hate is justified by people saying it costs all of us in higher health care insurance premiums etc. and burden society.

Why not just extend the argument to include people who don't study or parents who don't encourage their kids to study. The children will not be able to compete , end of unemployed and be a burden to society.

How about people who continue to have children when they can't afford the ones they already have?

Where do you draw the line? No one's perfect and to be so quick to judge."

Weak. Identifying obesity as a problem is not hate and your other examples are problems which we should or are trying to address through education.

Only, instead of saying something to the father in the store, the op felt the need to come and post it on the Internet to a forum full of exercise enthusiasts...

This conveys a sense of smugness rather than actual concern.

[Louis]

Only, instead of saying something to the father in the store, the op felt the need to come and post it on the Internet to a forum full of exercise enthusiasts...

This conveys a sense of smugness rather than actual concern.

So now the OP is being criticized for not doing enough? The poor guy can't win.

[mistermo]

Why stop there? How about higher insurance for cyclists, since they engage in a risky sport? Or maybe higher insurance for people with stressful jobs, or who chose to live in areas with more air pollution? Or who have kids with health risks?

Hypocritical non-sense.

If it's hypocritical to suggest that people take responsibility for their decisions and actions and the outcomes, then I'm guilty. :hello:

[54ny77]

i decry the lack of machismo here. if you're going to eat too much, make sure it's good. if you need to smoke, smoke.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-cUZWh7rxvmI/TnbhDSzO-MI/AAAAAAAAAEo/A4t-wePGxKo/s1600/cipollini4.jpg

[fogrider]

if you saw someone heading towards a cliff at 100 mph and hour should we not try to warn them? I think the term is intervention. I don't want someone blowing smoke in my face and I'm willing to hear a complaint if I'm doing something that offends someone...and yes, I have heard complaints...and I'm a better for it.

[Rueda Tropical]

It's a slippery slope. To you it might seem perfectly reasonable to pay as you weigh, so to speak. But where does it end? Should cyclists pay more for health insurance since they're probably at a higher risk of having an accident?

What behaviors should be penalized, what behaviors should be rewarded? There are no easy answers, certainly none without heated debate.

They do ask you about risky activities for insurance and cycling is not statistically risky. Less chance of injury for an adult cyclist then for a pedestrian or car passenger. Plus a cyclist is likely to be healthier then the average so it's probably a lower risk group.

It's not all about lack of exercise and calorie intake as many poor countries are as obese as the US. Hard work and a lot less food available then there is in the USA is the norm yet the populations are still obese.

People are not more morally deficient then generations before. It's more the changing components of what people are eating today and what is being marketed to them. Fruit and fresh vegetables are the most expensive and most perishable food groups in the supermarket. It's a complex combination of trends many driven by what generates bigger profits, lack of understanding about what actually makes us fat (see fat free labels on everything some fat people eat), ag subsidies subsidizing the rise of corn (the source of most of the sugars in the US diet) and increased work load on parents (40 years ago the average blue collar worker could support a family on one job while the wife stayed home and cooked), increased advertising directly to children, the rise of suburbia and car centric exurban planning, a lot of trends coming together have gotten us here and a lot of businesses have a lot to gain by keeping things as they are.

Declaring pizza a vegetable in public school meals because of food industry political influence is not a positive sign for future improvement.

[Germany_chris]

They do ask you about risky activities for insurance and cycling is not statistically risky. Less chance of injury for an adult cyclist then for a pedestrian or car passenger. Plus a cyclist is likely to be healthier then the average so it's probably a lower risk group.

It's not all about lack of exercise and calorie intake as many poor countries are as obese as the US. Hard work and a lot less food available then there is in the USA is the norm yet the populations are still obese.

People are not more morally deficient then generations before. It's more the changing components of what people are eating today and what is being marketed to them. Fruit and fresh vegetables are the most expensive and most perishable food groups in the supermarket. It's a complex combination of trends many driven by what generates bigger profits, lack of understanding about what actually makes us fat (see fat free labels on everything some fat people eat), ag subsidies subsidizing the rise of corn (the source of most of the sugars in the US diet) and increased work load on parents (40 years ago the average blue collar worker could support a family on one job while the wife stayed home and cooked), increased advertising directly to children, the rise of suburbia and car centric exurban planning, a lot of trends coming together have gotten us here and a lot of businesses have a lot to gain by keeping things as they are.

Declaring pizza a vegetable in public school meals because of food industry political influence is not a positive sign for future improvement.

Thank you for bringing some sanity back into this thread.

[mistermo]

increased advertising directly to children....
When my daughter was 2.5 yrs old, we were at a restaurant. She looked at a menu and ordered a Coke. Since she couldn't read, I asked her how she knew they had Coke. She pointed right at the Coca Cola script, right there on the menu.

When we got home, I performed an experiment. Using the computer, I printed the Lucky Charms leprechaun, Toucan Sam, Capn Crunch, the Rice Krispies elves, the McDonalds arches, and lots of famous brands' characters and logos. She knew all of them. The TV has been off since (except PBS).

Point is, in our US culture, kids learn these brands before they learn the alphabet. These advertisers know what they are doing.

[Rueda Tropical]

When my daughter was 2.5 yrs old, we were at a restaurant. She looked at a menu and ordered a Coke. Since she couldn't read, I asked her how she knew they had Coke. She pointed right at the Coca Cola script, right there on the menu.

When we got home, I performed an experiment. Using the computer, I printed the Lucky Charms leprechaun, Toucan Sam, Capn Crunch, the Rice Krispies elves, the McDonalds arches, and lots of famous brands' characters and logos. She knew all of them. The TV has been off since (except PBS).

Point is, in our US culture, kids learn these brands before they learn the alphabet. These advertisers know what they are doing.

And look at the nutritional panel on breakfast cereal. It's indistinguishable from a bar of candy.

[CNY rider]

Only, instead of saying something to the father in the store, the op felt the need to come and post it on the Internet to a forum full of exercise enthusiasts...

This conveys a sense of smugness rather than actual concern.

Smugness is not what I was going for.
I feel the same way about this kid as I do a kid who is never taught to read.
What a tragic way to start out in life.

[weiwentg]

I'm gonna play devil's advocate with this one because people's weight DOES affect me.

#1 I've been going go the Indy 500 for 40yrs. This year I had no seat because all the fat people nearby couldn't fit into their allotted seat size and crowded me out of mine.

#2 The ferries in New York recently had to reduce their maximum capacity and raise fares because... The average american has gained something like 40lbs since they ferry capacities were originally calculated. I now pay more for ferries.

Don't fool yourself into thinking that the extra weight carried by airplanes doesn't affect fares too.

#3 Whether it's increased insurance premiums, or increased taxes to cover the health problems of the obese, I pay again.

Being fat is a choice, just like smoking, drinking or anything else. If someone smokes in front of you, you have a right to complain because it affects you. If someone drinks and drives, you have a duty to prevent that. Insurance companies charge smokers and drinkers more for their insurance premiums.

As a society, we have lost the recognition that it is morally correct to police other members of our society. So why is it uncool to confront this costly and intruding obesity epidemic that is occurring and costing us all more $?

It affects us all and, in the false name of political correctness, many shy away from their societal duty of correcting this societal problem. That's a silly and stupid position.

All true until the point where the poster said that being fat is a choice. It is obliquely a choice, but that choice also interacts with marketing, with the built environment, with culture, with taxation, with government subsidies to different classes of foods, with individual variation in genetic factors, with lots of things. The people in public health who specialize in obesity would tell you that yes, it's a major threat, but being openly judgmental will not cure it.

In particular with regards to insurance premiums, you need some really large incentives to change behavior. Large enough that if you wanted to raise the premiums by enough, you would risk jeopardizing access to care. In particular you would run into the thorny question about do we want to charge poor kids on Medicaid for their care, when we know that premiums and cost sharing in Medicaid, which covers poor people*, can seriously jeopardize people's access to care and cause them to under-use services? How do we separate people who are obese into voluntary and involuntary groups?

People can be as judgmental as they want. And certainly there are plenty of people whose personal choices contribute to their obesity. But to actually solve the problem, I think the consensus is that we have to put the element of judgment aside when setting public policy.

[verticaldoug]

Who gets to decide? There are now more overweight people in the U.S. than normal or underweight. Maybe they should make it a crime to be skinny and judgemental? A hate crime... Wait... this is already happening.

[Ray]

It is obliquely a choice, but that choice also interacts with marketing, with the built environment, with culture, with taxation, with government subsidies to different classes of foods, with individual variation in genetic factors, with lots of things.

All of which are also choices, with the exception of "individual variation in genetic factors".

I think the consensus is that we have to put the element of judgment aside when setting public policy.
Not to worry - I haven't seen much evidence of judgement at work in setting public policy in about 30 years... :cool:

-Ray

[gemship]

Smugness is not what I was going for.
I feel the same way about this kid as I do a kid who is never taught to read.
What a tragic way to start out in life.


I believe you. Good offtopic topic even if you really do come across as smug to some. :o So what are you going to do about this dilemma? The old saying comes to mind, "Talk is cheap" and in a sense this really can be seen as more fodder for the forum.

[toaster]

All I can say is that I cannot see any good that comes from this OT thread that becomes controversial on several levels.

All of us are aware of obesity and we exercise, this is about riding bicycles here after all.

I pretty sure we all engage in behaviors that are our personal right to engage in whether they are in the end wholesome or unwholesome.

And, just because I saw a fat person in WalMart doesn't mean I have to tell everyone about it.

[benitosan1972]

I see fat people every day. I feel bad for them whether it's genetic, depression, or gluttony/laziness. The information is out there to help them, no matter who they are, their socio-economic status, their situation. I exercise to try to be not like them, and feel/move better. They have their life, I have mine, we continue on with our lives/habits. I have stuff I need to change too, and I know that. I think they do too. Why we don't change is an individual case, choice, situation. But we all have things we should (but not always prioritize/commit) change, either we will, or we won't.

[gemship]

I see fat people every day. I feel bad for them whether it's genetic, depression, or gluttony/laziness. The information is out there to help them, no matter who they are, their socio-economic status, their situation. I exercise to try to be not like them, and feel/move better. They have their life, I have mine, we continue on with our lives/habits. I have stuff I need to change too, and I know that. I think they do too. Why we don't change is an individual case, choice, situation. But we all have things we should (but not always prioritize/commit) change, either we will, or we won't.


Right on :D I was born skinny, I can eat anything I want and I won't gain substantial weight but I do notice that I feel better when I stay away from processed foods, drink water and do for any exercise, even walking counts.

I will also add that I am genetically endowed with tree trunk thighs, I look like a pro bicyclist even when I don't ride much :p

[goonster]

In particular with regards to insurance premiums, you need some really large incentives to change behavior. Large enough that if you wanted to raise the premiums by enough, you would risk jeopardizing access to care.
Obese people are arguably in greater need of good healthcare services than those with a healthy weight, because they suffer from poor health and risk serious complications.

There is no data that suggests higher insurance premiums are an effective incentive to maintain healthy weight. Most Europeans pay effectively nothing out-of-pocket for healthcare, regardless of weight, and they are significantly less obese than the U.S. (although they are steadily trending fatter).

Studies have shown that most parents do not perceive their obese children as such. We, as a society, need to have more of CNY's "Holy ****, this is a problem" moments.

[mister]

And look at the nutritional panel on breakfast cereal. It's indistinguishable from a bar of candy.

not if the only cereal your parents buy are grapenuts or all-bran...

i'll say this, it sucked when i was young and i couldn't get the regular peanut butter like JIF, or the sugary cereals or all the awesome sodas like the other kids.
my mom was a health freak.
i remember going to the original whole foods atleast 20 years ago, long haired tattoo'd guys that were real nice behind the deli, the peanut butter that i hated that was completely natural and had all the oil pooled on the top of it. never got to eat white bread, rarely got sodas, rarely got candy bars...

glad my mom cared about that **** back then because it made a difference in my habits and my health now.

[William]

not if the only cereal your parents buy are grapenuts or all-bran...

i'll say this, it sucked when i was young and i couldn't get the regular peanut butter like JIF, or the sugary cereals or all the awesome sodas like the other kids.
my mom was a health freak.
i remember going to the original whole foods atleast 20 years ago, long haired tattoo'd guys that were real nice behind the deli, the peanut butter that i hated that was completely natural and had all the oil pooled on the top of it. never got to eat white bread, rarely got sodas, rarely got candy bars...

glad my mom cared about that **** back then because it made a difference in my habits and my health now.



Sounds like you live at my house. :)

I wouldn't classify our family as "Health Freaks", we just try to eat good food and stay away from sugary processed foods. But I would be lying if I said we didn't occasionally have a sweet or have something to drink.





William

[fiamme red]

not if the only cereal your parents buy are grapenuts or all-bran...

i'll say this, it sucked when i was young and i couldn't get the regular peanut butter like JIF, or the sugary cereals or all the awesome sodas like the other kids.
my mom was a health freak.
i remember going to the original whole foods atleast 20 years ago, long haired tattoo'd guys that were real nice behind the deli, the peanut butter that i hated that was completely natural and had all the oil pooled on the top of it. never got to eat white bread, rarely got sodas, rarely got candy bars...

glad my mom cared about that **** back then because it made a difference in my habits and my health now.My parents raised me like that too. When I moved out and became independent, I saw no reason to change. In fact, I avoid processed foods even more now. When I go into a convenience store on a bike ride, there are very few things that I want to eat.

I confess that I've never tasted Coca-Cola, Pepsi, or most other soft drinks in my life.

[mistermo]

And, just because I saw a fat person in WalMart doesn't mean I have to tell everyone about it.
You just did.

[54ny77]

Hey if you're feeling a little chubby the day, just get a Dyson.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7nqZ-k3qQo&feature=player_embedded

[gemship]

I confess that I've never tasted Coca-Cola, Pepsi, or most other soft drinks in my life.

Believe it or not I actually get a headache from drinking any kind of coke, soda but I think it all taste good! I actually have to contemplate and reason with myself sometimes when I see this stuff and get the urge. If it makes me feel like crap then that's the best excuse to pass on it.

[MadRocketSci]

The simple fact is that much of the food in this country has been manufactured and engineered for convenience, taste, and cost over the last fifty or so years. Companies have been researching flavors that make us want to eat more of their product and produce those type of cravings. We all vary in our ability to resist certain things that turn our pleasure centers on.

Sadly the rest of the world is following our lead...

[SamIAm]

I think I get where the OP is coming from. I was in the emergency room a few weeks ago with a colleague who had taken ill at work.

While we were waiting, I couldn't help but notice the behavior of a family that was sharing the waiting area with us. The family consisted of a 5 year old girl, a 12 year old girl, their mother and one of her mothers friends.

The 12 year old was doing her best imitation of a pole dance and the other were cheering her on, pretending to give her dollar bills and all, the mother providing instructions on how to work the men.

It was really sad on many fronts, but for me the saddest was simply the very real chance that the parents were in effect putting their children on a challenging life path.

[old_fat_and_slow]

My wife tells me this same story on occasion after coming back from a grocery store trip.

Later, after dinner, when she's knee deep into the Ben & Jerry's chocolate fudge brownie frozen yogurt (oh but it's lo-fat!), I remind her of her earlier comment...
....and that's how I've come to appreciate sleeping in the basement!

:banana:
At least yah got Rover and Spot tah keep yah warm. Sleeping with the dogs ain't so bad, as long as they're not too stinky.

[Aaron O]

Oprah Winfrey is a successful, intelligent woman with resources most of us can only dream about having. As a media personality and someone who advertised her weight loss, she had as much incentive as anyone to keep weight off. Obviously Oprah was unsuccessful...with access to personal trainers, personal chefs, etc. This "it's a choice" stuff is simplistic and easy to say. It is extremely difficult for people with weight issues and this judgmental shame them garbage makes me disappointed to be a member of this forum. I wonder how many of your life styles could stand close scrutiny? I wonder how many of you are so perfect that you have a right to judge someone in a supermarket? I hope you look at your selves with the same penetrating lens you're judging others with.

Until you walk a mile in someone else's shoes...

[fiamme red]

The simple fact is that much of the food in this country has been manufactured and engineered for convenience, taste, and cost over the last fifty or so years. Companies have been researching flavors that make us want to eat more of their product and produce those type of cravings.I almost never watch 60 Minutes, but I happened to catch a show one Sunday a few months ago about Givaudan. Pretty amazing.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/28/artificial-natural-flavors-givaudan_n_1116081.html

Givaudan may be the biggest multinational company you've never heard of, explains correspondent Morley Safer. It employees 9,000 people in 45 countries. Givaudan employees admit that they aim to mimic Mother Nature with chemicals. They create flavors that don't linger too long -- that way, you'll want to go back for more. "There's a lot of secrecy," confesses one employee. The company won't reveal which brands contain Givaudan flavors...

Safer speaks with Dr. David Kessler, former FDA Commissioner. Kessler questions whether all these flavorings are really food. "We're living in a food carnival, these flavors are so stimulating they hijack our brain," he asserts...

[Litespeed_Mike]

[In the Public Health realm I work in when not riding,] obesity is considered an epidemic... which has taken off in the past 25 years.

Checkout the click-through graphic of the US - obesity prevalence from 1985- here:

http://www.cdc.gov/obesity/data/trends.html

[1centaur]

Hey, I have an idea. Let's pretend everything is fine, equal, I'm okay and you're okay, no matter what, as a priority over any obvious truth that might arise therefrom about societal or individual negative consequences.

Or, we would all stop pretending that we're not judgmental about a thousand things every day because that's what separates us from, what, single-celled organisms (since animals are shamelessly judgmental)?

And then once we accept that making judgments is what makes us better, let's try to make the right judgments, about things like personal vs. societal freedoms. For example, to the extent we have a national budget deficit forecast that could cause us to reduce our defense and subtract from our collective retirement in order to fund hundreds of billions of dollars of late-life care for obese people who were not genetically designed to be that way, maybe we could attack that problem from all fronts: food production, science, eating habits, shame, whatever. Because we want the unconstrained joy of eating 5 Big Macs a day to just not be worth it for all sorts of reasons.

BTW, insurance actuaries presumably get it already about obesity, but don't charge for it because it's not a contract winner to do it (the corporate buyers would view it as too controversial to implement). If we have national insurance, there'll never be an obesity charge because that's a vote killer for the party that proposes it. National judgmentalism leads to laws leads to smoking dropping huge percentages over 50 years. No soda machines in some high schools is step 1 of a thousand miles. I don't see an alternative for the elephant in the room nor his big fat innocent kid.

[rugbysecondrow]

Sounds like you live at my house. :)

I wouldn't classify our family as "Health Freaks", we just try to eat good food and stay away from sugary processed foods. But I would be lying if I said we didn't occasionally have a sweet or have something to drink.





William


if sweets were my largest concern, I would be alright folks, if that was the largest concern I had for my kids I would REALLY be alright. The truth is that it is not sweets, or some booze or the occasional cigar or the occasional trip to Vegas or even a joint every now and again. It is when people are abusers where there are issues and even more so when they teach this abuse to their children. People don't respect what they have, they abuse it. Avalon said this and I agree, it is a damn shame, sinful that people abuse their bodies the way they do. What perpetuates the problem is not their own abuse, but the notion that we, as a society, should accept their abuse and just deal with it. Nope. I am prejudice against these people. The fact that there are disabled people who have had their locomtion taken away due to disease or accidents or war while there are others not only willing handing it over but being obstinate about it, well that is just bullcrap and ought not be acceptable. I work out 5-6 days a week to maintain a 6'2", 225# build, but could easily hit three bills if I threw in the towel for both fitness and diet. I make a choice, and others do as well. I have a friend who was a pudgy rudgy, never worked out a day in his whole life. We went for his first run and he couldn't make it a 1/4mile. 3 years later he finished an ironman. Choices people, we all make them.

On a small scale, my wife had to relearn how to shop at the store because her parents had such bad habits that were passed down. I would come home from the store and there would be boxes of treats, bags of chips, cases of soda and almost nothing green. It wasn't really a conscious decision so much as a reflex, a habit learned. "this is what Mom bought, so I am buying it". I grew up in a meat, potato and veggie family (ratios skewed in favor of the meat and potato), every night, 7 nights a week. I had to relearn behavior, I had to become responsible for myself.

I would like to address one more thing, body image. I think one can be prejudice against obese people without promoting a body image issue. The issue is not vanity so much as it is health. It is not striving for a perfect body but rather avoiding a lifestyle that will cause health issues, physical limitations and possible premature death.

I don't hate fat or obese people but I despise the notion that we accept this behavior. I also don't respect the behavior and, frankly, probably would not hire or promote an obese person. If somebody doesn't invest in themselves, then why would I?

[Aaron O]

if sweets were my largest concern, I would be alright folks, if that was the largest concern I had for my kids I would REALLY be alright. The truth is that it is not sweets, or some booze or the occasional cigar or the occasional trip to Vegas or even a joint every now and again. It is when people are abusers where there are issues and even more so when they teach this abuse to their children. People don't respect what they have, they abuse it. Avalon said this and I agree, it is a damn shame, sinful that people abuse their bodies the way they do. What perpetuates the problem is not their own abuse, but the notion that we, as a society, should accept their abuse and just deal with it. Nope. I am prejudice against these people. The fact that there are disabled people who have had their locomtion taken away due to disease or accidents or war while there are others not only willing handing it over but being obstinate about it, well that is just bullcrap and ought not be acceptable. I work out 5-6 days a week to maintain a 6'2", 225# build, but could easily hit three bills if I threw in the towel for both fitness and diet. I make a choice, and others do as well. I have a friend who was a pudgy rudgy, never worked out a day in his whole life. We went for his first run and he couldn't make it a 1/4mile. 3 years later he finished an ironman. Choices people, we all make them.

On a small scale, my wife had to relearn how to shop at the store because her parents had such bad habits that were passed down. I would come home from the store and there would be boxes of treats, bags of chips, cases of soda and almost nothing green. It wasn't really a conscious decision so much as a reflex, a habit learned. "this is what Mom bought, so I am buying it". I grew up in a meat, potato and veggie family (ratios skewed in favor of the meat and potato), every night, 7 nights a week. I had to relearn behavior, I had to become responsible for myself.

I would like to address one more thing, body image. I think one can be prejudice against obese people without promoting a body image issue. The issue is not vanity so much as it is health. It is not striving for a perfect body but rather avoiding a lifestyle that will cause health issues, physical limitations and possible premature death.

I don't hate fat or obese people but I despise the notion that we accept this behavior. I also don't respect the behavior and, frankly, probably would not hire or promote an obese person. If somebody doesn't invest in themselves, then why would I?

Interesting - I'd promote the person with the best work history and job qualifications. I wonder who would end up with better employees? By the way...it is documented that heavier people, and shorter people, are not paid as well or promoted to the levels of taller and thinner people. Society does not accept weight issues and is more tolerant of far more destructive behaviors like alcoholism and gambling addiction. The idea of weight being accepted is not at all true.

[rugbysecondrow]

Oprah Winfrey is a successful, intelligent woman with resources most of us can only dream about having. As a media personality and someone who advertised her weight loss, she had as much incentive as anyone to keep weight off. Obviously Oprah was unsuccessful...with access to personal trainers, personal chefs, etc. This "it's a choice" stuff is simplistic and easy to say. It is extremely difficult for people with weight issues and this judgmental shame them garbage makes me disappointed to be a member of this forum. I wonder how many of your life styles could stand close scrutiny? I wonder how many of you are so perfect that you have a right to judge someone in a supermarket? I hope you look at your selves with the same penetrating lens you're judging others with.

Until you walk a mile in someone else's shoes...

I understand your sentiment. I would not further then notion that it is easy or not a struggle, but neither is kicking a drug addiction or quitting smoking. As a former smoker, it is hard, hard, hard...just ask my finger nails. :) Just because it is hard though does not mean we accept the alternative. Getting an education for many is hard, especially those who work their way through school, but we don't view giving up as a solution. Health, weight loss etc should be the same.

I don't think it is hate either, but it is a prejudgement. Those who are obese need to be responsible for those prejudements and realize that society, although we respect the process and courage to accomplish goals, goal attainment is still what holds the most respect. An obese person on a constant diet means nothing, but if she loses weight, people really clap.

[rugbysecondrow]

Interesting - I'd promote the person with the best work history and job qualifications. I wonder who would end up with better employees? By the way...it is documented that heavier people, and shorter people, are not paid as well or promoted to the levels of taller and thinner people. Society does not accept weight issues and is more tolerant of far more destructive behaviors like alcoholism and gambling addiction. The idea of weight being accepted is not at all true.


It is nice to say that, but an obese person, and under dressed person, an unshaven person, a person who has BO etc etc, this all factors in. I am responsible for my appearance and how I am perceived.

There is a quiet prejudice, but it ought not be. Society needs to start being honest about these factors. The truth is that it matters and to think otherwise is just foolish on the part of the obese person. They need to be responsible for their path. On the other hand, there is no promise made for prosperity, so that leaves room for others to get the jobs. In a competitive world, it makes it easier for the rest of us.

[Aaron O]

I understand your sentiment. I would not further then notion that it is easy or not a struggle, but neither is kicking a drug addiction or quitting smoking. As a former smoker, it is hard, hard, hard...just ask my finger nails. :) Just because it is hard though does not mean we accept the alternative. Getting an education for many is hard, especially those who work their way through school, but we don't view giving up as a solution. Health, weight loss etc should be the same.

I don't think it is hate either, but it is a prejudgement. Those who are obese need to be responsible for those prejudements and realize that society, although we respect the process and courage to accomplish goals, goal attainment is still what holds the most respect. An obese person on a constant diet means nothing, but if she loses weight, people really clap.

I was a 2-3 pack a day smoker for 10 years...I quit cold turkey 7 years ago and, as you said, it was difficult, but not THAT difficult. It isn't nearly as hard as food issues because once you quit smoking, you quit. You ALWAYS, constantly, eat and have to make good decisions. Drug addiction is likely a good comparison...and how many people manage to permanently kick drug habits? I never really knew anyone with drug addiction until recently, and the two addicts that I know now have made me realize how difficult it is to quit.

To me the bottom line is that most people engage in some sort of destructive issue that likely affects an actuary table and I think it's much easier to judge others than yourself. It's easier to judge an obese person than a drug addict because you can't hide weight. I think the "just quit" approach here is very simplistic and easy to say for people who don't have the problem...that guy buying his son m and ms likely had his parents doing the same thing...where do you start and stop the judgement?

The appearance thing with weight and discrimination isn't limited to weight. Height impacts promotions and success...as does physical attractiveness in ways other than just weight. Perhaps we as a society are hard wired to value certain things (height, strength) because of primitive mating/alpha male histories when those things aren't relevant to job performance in current society. I don't think being overweight is unprofessional or shows a lack of discipline in the way that BO does. Maybe our values...where we scorn obesity over drug addiction and judge others instead of ourselves...are the problem?

If someone like Oprah...with more pressure and resources than insurance rates can manage...is unable to do it, it's obviously something that's pretty hard to do.

[jblande]

where do you start and stop the judgement?


i start and stop at the point where the rhetoric of free choice is, in fact, masking the harmful manipulation of the lives of an entire nation by an industry interested only in profit.

[Aaron O]

i start and stop at the point where the rhetoric of free choice is, in fact, masking the harmful manipulation of the lives of an entire nation by an industry interested only in profit.

I wonder if you'd use that standard with commuting long distances, or living near a power plant.

[rugbysecondrow]

It is always easier to judge others, but I think what makes it easier to judge others is that I have made, as have you and others, the hard decisions...we judged ourselves and made a change. Life is full of hard decisions, battles, setbacks, victories and more setbacks...but you keep trying to improve. The OP wasn't typing about an obese person on a bike. I think we can all respect that. He didn't mention an obese person out walking through the hood today. He mentioned something quite different. I think we can look at the behavior as well as the person to form judgements, agreed? It sounds like you and I have both made changes in life, it is possible to right the ship, but YOU and only YOU can choose. For those who don't, yes, there is judgement and prejudice and I think it is rightfully deserved.

As an aside, my Dad spent 4 years in China from 2004-2008. When he came back to the states, he went for a walk in the park, stopped on a bench, lit a cigarette and puffed away. What had changed in the past 4 years was the scorn towards him. Folks looked at him like he was a predator, outcast, deranged. It was then he realized that things had changed. He decided to quit, although he had been trying to quit for the last 15 years, mixing in nicorette and cigarettes, sometimes concurrently, this pushed him over the ledge. Why can't we use the same peer pressure for obese people?

As somebody tall, strong build and handsome...lets just say I am fortunate. ;)

I was a 2-3 pack a day smoker for 10 years...I quit cold turkey 7 years ago and, as you said, it was difficult, but not THAT difficult. It isn't nearly as hard as food issues because once you quit smoking, you quit. You ALWAYS, constantly, eat and have to make good decisions. Drug addiction is likely a good comparison...and how many people manage to permanently kick drug habits? I never really knew anyone with drug addiction until recently, and the two addicts that I know now have made me realize how difficult it is to quit.

To me the bottom line is that most people engage in some sort of destructive issue that likely affects an actuary table and I think it's much easier to judge others than yourself. It's easier to judge an obese person than a drug addict because you can't hide weight. I think the "just quit" approach here is very simplistic and easy to say for people who don't have the problem...that guy buying his son m and ms likely had his parents doing the same thing...where do you start and stop the judgement?

The appearance thing with weight and discrimination isn't limited to weight. Height impacts promotions and success...as does physical attractiveness in ways other than just weight. Perhaps we as a society are hard wired to value certain things (height, strength) because of primitive mating/alpha male histories when those things aren't relevant to job performance in current society. I don't think being overweight is unprofessional or shows a lack of discipline in the way that BO does. Maybe our values...where we scorn obesity over drug addiction and judge others instead of ourselves...are the problem?

If someone like Oprah...with more pressure and resources than insurance rates can manage...is unable to do it, it's obviously something that's pretty hard to do.

[CNY rider]

You seem really wrapped up in the judgement thing.
Forget that for a second.
Just imagine if this kid couldn't read. He would be coming up to adult life at a huge disadvantage if that problem wasn't addressed.
So we have programs in our schools that are designed to find the kids who aren't learning to read, and get them back on track. We pour big societal resources into those programs.
I don't doubt for a second that this dad I saw in the store knows nothing about nutrition, and was raised with a family that was the same way.
But now he's digging a deep hole for his kid to start life in. And his son is probably going to do the exact same thing to his son 20 years from now
Where do we stop this cycle? And how? That's what the discussion needs to be about, not about who gets hurt feelings.

I was a 2-3 pack a day smoker for 10 years...I quit cold turkey 7 years ago and, as you said, it was difficult, but not THAT difficult. It isn't nearly as hard as food issues because once you quit smoking, you quit. You ALWAYS, constantly, eat and have to make good decisions. Drug addiction is likely a good comparison...and how many people manage to permanently kick drug habits? I never really knew anyone with drug addiction until recently, and the two addicts that I know now have made me realize how difficult it is to quit.

To me the bottom line is that most people engage in some sort of destructive issue that likely affects an actuary table and I think it's much easier to judge others than yourself. It's easier to judge an obese person than a drug addict because you can't hide weight. I think the "just quit" approach here is very simplistic and easy to say for people who don't have the problem...that guy buying his son m and ms likely had his parents doing the same thing...where do you start and stop the judgement?

[Louis]

where do you start and stop the judgment?

I don't buy the "it's a slippery slope, and if we judge someone for being xx lbs overweight, then we'll have to also criticize him for having one hair out of place on his head, and that would be bad, so we can't comment on him being morbidly overweight." Doesn't make any sense to me.

For many things in life there's an entire spectrum of facts, details, behaviors, whatever. Lots of gray in the world. That doesn't meant that just because something lies somewhere on a continuum it's therefore OK. It might be more difficult to judge, but not impossible.

(BTW, when it comes to judging me vs 4% body-fat boy-racers, I'm fat and I admit it. But compared to many other folks out there, I'm in great shape.)

[Aaron O]

It is always easier to judge others, but I think what makes it easier to judge others is that I have made, as have you and others, the hard decisions...we judged ourselves and made a change. Life is full of hard decisions, battles, setbacks, victories and more setbacks...but you keep trying to improve. The OP wasn't typing about an obese person on a bike. I think we can all respect that. He didn't mention an obese person out walking through the hood today. He mentioned something quite different. I think we can look at the behavior as well as the person to form judgements, agreed? It sounds like you and I have both made changes in life, it is possible to right the ship, but YOU and only YOU can choose. For those who don't, yes, there is judgement and prejudice and I think it is rightfully deserved.

As an aside, my Dad spent 4 years in China from 2004-2008. When he came back to the states, he went for a walk in the park, stopped on a bench, lit a cigarette and puffed away. What had changed in the past 4 years was the scorn towards him. Folks looked at him like he was a predator, outcast, deranged. It was then he realized that things had changed. He decided to quit, although he had been trying to quit for the last 15 years, mixing in nicorette and cigarettes, sometimes concurrently, this pushed him over the ledge. Why can't we use the same peer pressure for obese people?

I think what I'm saying is that pressure is already there...and quite in the open. I don't think there are many people who are overweight and content about it. As someone who did quit smoking and has weight/food issues...they aren't the same thing. Quitting smoking is a walk in the park compared to long term weight control and the existing pressure on people who are overweight vs. those that smoke are not remotely the same; it's much more pressure on weight (though it's probably not as bad a health risk).

Everyone is different, so maybe I shouldn't generalize based on my experiences, but quitting smoking requires 6 months of self discipline. After that it's pretty easy...I haven't been tempted to smoke in years. Food and weight issues are ALWAYS there. You can have a great year, or two years, but the pressure and enjoyment in overeating is always right there at the next meal.

I have a friend who theorizes that you never truly end an addiction, you just shift them for other addictions...and everyone has compulsive and destructive behaviors. I think he might be right.

[akelman]

an industry interested only in profit

But see, this is the thing. The discussion gets framed, most of the time at least, in terms of individual behavior and morality (because fat people are ostensibly weak and self-destructive), when in fact we're talking about structural issues: government regulation, the nature of markets, a culture of consumption and convenience, etc.

For me, the relatively thin son of a morbidly obese father whose weight began compromising his health and quality of life more than thirty years ago, it's very tempting to judge fat people. The stories that I tell myself about my own virtue, for having remained thin and healthy, suggest that people who have made other choices are morally suspect, particularly when they pass those behaviors on to their children. And although people here seem to think that political correctness precludes making fun of fat people, I would argue that exactly the opposite is true -- overweight people are one of the last safe targets of ridicule in our society -- which makes it easy for me to judge. But then I realize that a) current science seems to suggest that losing weight is difficult both because of nurture and nature; and b) the structural issues outlined above have almost nothing to do with individual behavior.

In the end, I guess I don't really know what to say. I want people to be healthy. And I certainly don't want to subsidize unhealthy lifestyle choices that I don't condone (though I do this all the time, as my taxes go toward all manner of things that I disapprove of at the abstract level, including highway construction). But I'm not sure that I'm in a position to judge at the individual level. And even then, speaking of the case here, parenting is so complicated, and such a hot-button issue, that I try very hard to allow people who obviously love their kids -- which is to say, neglect is another issue entirely -- to make the choices they make without judgement.

[Aaron O]

You seem really wrapped up in the judgement thing.
Forget that for a second.
Just imagine if this kid couldn't read. He would be coming up to adult life at a huge disadvantage if that problem wasn't addressed.
So we have programs in our schools that are designed to find the kids who aren't learning to read, and get them back on track. We pour big societal resources into those programs.
I don't doubt for a second that this dad I saw in the store knows nothing about nutrition, and was raised with a family that was the same way.
But now he's digging a deep hole for his kid to start life in. And his son is probably going to do the exact same thing to his son 20 years from now
Where do we stop this cycle? And how? That's what the discussion needs to be about, not about who gets hurt feelings.

I don't have a good answer for you...it's something I struggle with and my parents struggle with. Some years I do a great job, some I don't. I always manage to stay active, and my blood pressure and cholesterol is actually fantastic for my age. I probably would find it easier to behave well if I was facing a health risk.

I think another good approach might be how to help people get over worrying about the behaviors of other people and focus on their own issues. Perhaps helping people look past aesthetics and the jungle mating issues would be helpful for society as well.

[rugbysecondrow]

I agree. When I don't exercise for two days, I getting moody like I used to when I was jonzing for a smoke. Just plain cranky and moody.

The alternative to a life of obesity is a life of what? Challenges, decision making, peer pressure, emotional stress? Yes, likely all of the above, but it is all better than being obese, correct? Nobody is saying it is easy, it is not and it likely took a person decades to get obese, so it will take years to undo it, but it is possible, very possible.

I would also add, my nonmedical opinion, that not all obese people have food addictions, they are just obese and have poor habits.




I think what I'm saying is that pressure is already there...and quite in the open. I don't think there are many people who are overweight and content about it. As someone who did quit smoking and has weight/food issues...they aren't the same thing. Quitting smoking is a walk in the park compared to long term weight control and the existing pressure on people who are overweight vs. those that smoke are not remotely the same; it's much more pressure on weight (though it's probably not as bad a health risk).

Everyone is different, so maybe I shouldn't generalize based on my experiences, but quitting smoking requires 6 months of self discipline. After that it's pretty easy...I haven't been tempted to smoke in years. Food and weight issues are ALWAYS there. You can have a great year, or two years, but the pressure and enjoyment in overeating is always right there at the next meal.

I have a friend who theorizes that you never truly end an addiction, you just shift them for other addictions...and everyone has compulsive and destructive behaviors. I think he might be right.

[Aaron O]

But see, this is the thing. The discussion gets framed, most of the time at least, in terms of individual behavior and morality (because fat people are ostensibly weak and self-destructive), when in fact we're talking about structural issues: government regulation, the nature of markets, a culture of consumption and convenience, etc.

For me, the relatively thin son of a morbidly obese father whose weight began compromising his health and quality of life more than thirty years ago, it's very tempting to judge fat people. The stories that I tell myself about my own virtue, for having remained thin and healthy, suggest that people who have made other choices are morally suspect, particularly when they pass those behaviors on to their children. And although people here seem to think that political correctness precludes making fun of fat people, I would argue that exactly the opposite is true -- overweight people are one of the last safe targets of ridicule in our society -- which makes it easy for me to judge. But then I realize that a) current science seems to suggest that losing weight is difficult both because of nurture and nature; and b) the structural issues outlined above have almost nothing to do with individual behavior.

In the end, I guess I don't really know what to say. I want people to be healthy. And I certainly don't want to subsidize unhealthy lifestyle choices that I don't condone (though I do this all the time, as my taxes go toward all manner of things that I disapprove of at the abstract level, including highway construction). But I'm not sure that I'm in a position to judge at the individual level. And even then, speaking of the case here, parenting is so complicated, and such a hot-button issue, that I try very hard to allow people who obviously love their kids -- which is to say, neglect is another issue entirely -- to make the choices they make without judgement.

Probably the best, most thoughtful post I've read here.

[rugbysecondrow]

As an aside, at nearly any triathlon, it is the final few that get the loudest applause. A true sign that people respect their effort and accomplishment. These are mostly overweight, older, and obviously slow, but folks love the effort. There is no mocking, teasing or anything else crappy. Folks respect effort, but loathe lack of.

[slowgoing]

BTW, insurance actuaries presumably get it already about obesity, but don't charge for it because it's not a contract winner to do it (the corporate buyers would view it as too controversial to implement).

If you're self employed and need an individial policy for you and your family, you pay based on your health and individual history. The policies can be tailored to be fairly competitive if you exclude some coverage provided by companies, such as addiction treatment or pregnancy. But if you are too much of a risk, the companies may refuse to cover you, at which point you are put in the high risk pool, which is presumably subsidized, although I don't know that for sure.

[slowgoing]

As somebody tall, strong build and handsome...lets just say I am fortunate. ;)

Just joking but not really, right?

[benb]

This is has been a long thread but there are a couple thoughts that I wanted to share..

- Just like junk food is big business, the diet & exercise industry is also big business. If the diet industry succeeds and causes folks to get their weight & lifestyle under control, they will destroy their own customer base. As far as I can tell most of what they are selling is designed to fool someone into thinking it will work but not actually work. I'd guess this has a huge effect on why someone like Oprah with all the resources in the world can't succeed..

- This problem strikes me as completely intertwined with our national health care and financial issues.. we are mostly ignoring it or talking about it but not doing anything and I think "fat acceptance" is going to win the day, but as time goes on we are all going to have to get tough about it to make any progress.

- In a lot of cases we are probably at the 3rd generation of folks who have known nothing but obesity, poor eating habits, and a lack of exercise. There parents were obese, they are obese, and they are fattening their kids up and teaching them all the same bad habits. It is going to be incredibly difficult to break this cycle. It's gone on so long we see all the stats about parents not being able to tell their children are grossly overweight, and seeing a fit person like a cyclist and thinking they are anorexic, even if they are not on the thin end of the scale for a cyclist. Most people I meet think I am unhealthy, have too low of a BMI, etc.. when in reality I am only 10-15lbs below the "overweight" cutoff line depending on the time of year.

[fiamme red]

I'm gonna play devil's advocate with this one because people's weight DOES affect me.

#1 I've been going go the Indy 500 for 40yrs. This year I had no seat because all the fat people nearby couldn't fit into their allotted seat size and crowded me out of mine.

#2 The ferries in New York recently had to reduce their maximum capacity and raise fares because... The average american has gained something like 40lbs since they ferry capacities were originally calculated. I now pay more for ferries.From today's New York Times:

Transit Agencies Face the New Calculus of Broader Backsides (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/16/nyregion/transit-agencies-in-new-york-area-consider-wider-seats.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all)

[rugbysecondrow]

Just joking but not really, right?



I am tall, strong build...the handsome part might have been a stretch. ;)

In all seriousness, I can make statements, give presentations and be granted authority due to my physical stature. People treat you differently when you walk into a room. It is just the way it is.

[slowgoing]

You're a good sport.

I am tall, strong build...the handsome part might have been a stretch. ;)

In all seriousness, I can make statements, give presentations and be granted authority due to my physical stature. People treat you differently when you walk into a room. It is just the way it is.

[Aaron O]

I am tall, strong build...the handsome part might have been a stretch. ;)

In all seriousness, I can make statements, give presentations and be granted authority due to my physical stature. People treat you differently when you walk into a room. It is just the way it is.

I don't know...I've managed to gain that authority by having a booming voice and a track record of doing my job well ;)

The striking look only lasts as long as the person doesn't sound like an idiot and/or not know how to speak in public. I might be only 5'10 and chunky...but being a good speaker and quasi-literate seems to carry the day.

[rugbysecondrow]

I don't know...I've managed to gain that authority by having a booming voice and a track record of doing my job well ;)

The striking look only lasts as long as the person doesn't sound like an idiot and/or not know how to speak in public. I might be only 5'10 and chunky...but being a good speaker and quasi-literate seems to carry the day.

Agree completely, but it is the difference between earning the initial respect and being granted it from the get go. It is not always the case, but I notice is more often than not.

[gdw]

"- This problem strikes me as completely intertwined with our national health care and financial issues.. we are mostly ignoring it or talking about it but not doing anything and I think "fat acceptance" is going to win the day, but as time goes on we are all going to have to get tough about it to make any progress."

Obesity also effects our national security.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2010/04/too_fat_to_fight_obesity_and_n.html

[Aaron O]

Agree completely, but it is the difference between earning the initial respect and being granted it from the get go. It is not always the case, but I notice is more often than not.

I definitely wouldn't mind a few inches. Key laugh track.

[mistermo]

Interesting - I'd promote the person with the best work history and job qualifications. I wonder who would end up with better employees?
Promote? Yes. Hire? Maybe not.

Define "better"? Are you suggesting that someone's habits or physical appearance should play ZERO role in your assessment of them as an employee?

For our company....
#1. It is a fact that health care costs are the fastest growing expense (by far).
#2. It is also a fact that the frequency and type of our employee's claims, determine our health insurance rates.
#3. It is a fact that overweight employees have more health-related problems, than others.

Thus, overweight employees are contributing disproportionately to our fastest growing business expense.

I offer that overweight employees, may cost your business significantly more than other "lesser" employees.

[Jeff N.]

Walked through produce, got most of what I needed. Turned the corner past deli and along the wall with hot dogs, prepared meats etc.

In front of me is a dad and his young son. Dad is about 5'10", easily 270 pounds with at least 60 pounds hanging over his belt. I would guess his son is about 5 based on my comparison with my almost 4 year old daughter who was with me at the time.
This kid was grossly obese, probably weighed 80 pounds.

The dad was filling a cart with prepared lunches. The kind with crackers, some synthetic cheese and processed meats in a plastic container. Grabbed some hot dogs too.
Not a single fruit, vegetable or fresh anything in the cart.

I ended up behind them in line where dad also grabbed a big bag of peanut M&M's for his boy. I didn't even hear his son ask for them, I may have missed that part, but he handed them over as soon as they were rung up.

Wow. I felt so sorry for this kid. He is doomed to a lifetime of miserable health if something doesn't change for him. His dad (and I assume his mom, who wasn't there) can't be completely ignorant of what's happening. Diabetes is lurking around the corner if not present already.

I've seen plenty of data recently that this is not a financial issue; you can eat well for the same amount of money as buying artificial processed crap. The real difference is the amount of work involved to get it to the table. This poor kid doesn't stand a chance if someone in his life doesn't smarten up and start taking steps to feed him in a nutritious way and get his weight under control.

Rant over.And after that, it's over to Jack-In-The-Box for their two-for-99 cent Jumbo Jack special...with frings! Jeff N.

[SEABREEZE]

This thread makes me happy with my career choice, being a Grassfed Organic Farmer. Supplying healthy non preserved foods to my community.

I think many here get it, with regards to nutrition and health. However there are a lot of folks out there who are illerate, and others that have knowledge, but are ignorant or just dont give a damm about good nutrition.

We see customers that are obessed with health, others that get sick, and health providers advise to start eating healthy, and others that dont know much about health and nutrition but want to begin to eat healthy.

There are so many books out about this, that many ignore it, others confused what to follow etc.

Edit: Eating and living healthy is a way of life, as is not to others who care less...

Its quite easy for either, as it becomes your everyday norm.

Remember a mind is like a parachute, it only works when its open

[Jaq]

Remember a mind is like a parachute, it only works when its open

And really only useful when you've been shot down in flames. ;)

[mistermo]

http://youtu.be/O7ijukNzlUg?hd=1

[Aaron O]

Since everyone is concerned about insurance rates and fairness...I have a few observations...

Insurance rates and medical costs are rising partially because of malpractice rates and increases in suits that I believe is due to temporary cost cutting measures that lead to more mistakes by increasingly monopolized hospitals. People who make a higher salary receive higher awards because damages are based on earnings...yet they don't pay a premium for being a higher rewards risk. You pay more insurance for a Ferrari, so perhaps people should be paying for insurance partially based on their risk of suit damages.

Couples who chose to bring children with health risks into the world should be charged a premium...since we're all paying for their choices.

People who make choices to live near power plants, manufacturing facilities, etc. should be charged more due to increased health risks.

Higher stress jobs should receive a premium since that affects health.

People without pets should pay a premium since they are found not to live as long.

Unmarried people should pay a premium since...

As someone who doesn't have children and doesn't drive...and who subsidizes road use and schools without utilizing them...I'm already paying for more than my share. I don't actually mind because that's part of being a contributing member of society...sometimes you have to give a bit for the sake of the common good.

[rugbysecondrow]

Seabreeze is one of the guys I listen to on these topics. For me, this time of year it is harder to eat well. Aside from the typical holiday eating and drinking, getting fresh food is hard. Spring/Summer and Fall is great for farmers market, fruit stands, colorful recipes etc, but the grey of Winter seems to catch me off guard.

Each year I seem to get better and better at eating and nutrition and each year and wonder why I didn't take the step before.

I ordered my Vitamix this summer and use it 1-2 times a day...that alone has helped me integrate more fresh stuff into my diet.

I am going to start/revive a healthy recipe thread, maybe some winter ideas/recipes can spread. http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=77229

Thanks!

Paul

This thread makes me happy with my career choice, being a Grassfed Organic Farmer. Supplying healthy non preserved foods to my community.

I think many here get it, with regards to nutrition and health. However there are a lot of folks out there who are illerate, and others that have knowledge, but are ignorant or just dont give a damm about good nutrition.

We see customers that are obessed with health, others that get sick, and health providers advise to start eating healthy, and others that dont know much about health and nutrition but want to begin to eat healthy.

There are so many books out about this, that many ignore it, others confused what to follow etc.

Edit: Eating and living healthy is a way of life, as is not to others who care less...

Its quite easy for either, as it becomes your everyday norm.

Remember a mind is like a parachute, it only works when its open

[rugbysecondrow]

Dude, is this what going down in flames looks like? :)

I appreciate the effort. :beer:

Since everyone is concerned about insurance rates and fairness...I have a few observations...

Insurance rates and medical costs are rising partially because of malpractice rates and increases in suits that I believe is due to temporary cost cutting measures that lead to more mistakes by increasingly monopolized hospitals. People who make a higher salary receive higher awards because damages are based on earnings...yet they don't pay a premium for being a higher rewards risk. You pay more insurance for a Ferrari, so perhaps people should be paying for insurance partially based on their risk of suit damages.

Couples who chose to bring children with health risks into the world should be charged a premium...since we're all paying for their choices.

People who make choices to live near power plants, manufacturing facilities, etc. should be charged more due to increased health risks.

Higher stress jobs should receive a premium since that affects health.

People without pets should pay a premium since they are found not to live as long.

Unmarried people should pay a premium since...

As someone who doesn't have children and doesn't drive...and who subsidizes road use and schools without utilizing them...I'm already paying for more than my share. I don't actually mind because that's part of being a contributing member of society...sometimes you have to give a bit for the sake of the common good.

[giverdada]

Hey, I have an idea. Let's pretend everything is fine, equal, I'm okay and you're okay, no matter what, as a priority over any obvious truth that might arise therefrom about societal or individual negative consequences.

Or, we would all stop pretending that we're not judgmental about a thousand things every day because that's what separates us from, what, single-celled organisms (since animals are shamelessly judgmental)?

And then once we accept that making judgments is what makes us better, let's try to make the right judgments, about things like personal vs. societal freedoms. For example, to the extent we have a national budget deficit forecast that could cause us to reduce our defense and subtract from our collective retirement in order to fund hundreds of billions of dollars of late-life care for obese people who were not genetically designed to be that way, maybe we could attack that problem from all fronts: food production, science, eating habits, shame, whatever. Because we want the unconstrained joy of eating 5 Big Macs a day to just not be worth it for all sorts of reasons.

BTW, insurance actuaries presumably get it already about obesity, but don't charge for it because it's not a contract winner to do it (the corporate buyers would view it as too controversial to implement). If we have national insurance, there'll never be an obesity charge because that's a vote killer for the party that proposes it. National judgmentalism leads to laws leads to smoking dropping huge percentages over 50 years. No soda machines in some high schools is step 1 of a thousand miles. I don't see an alternative for the elephant in the room nor his big fat innocent kid.

+1. pretty sure i said the same thing before. we're judgmental and discriminatory: it's why we're alive and evolved. what we do with this ability to discern is the clincher (or tubular, or tubeless, or open-tubular, or...). i don't really know why some people have such a problem with this thread, and then keep checking in on it to comment on what a problem this thread is. (uh, stop judging and just go somewhere else that isn't so irksome to you...?) there's much wrong. there's much to be done. noticing it is completely fine. doing something about it is also fine, whether on a personal or an evangelical level, or somewhere in between, like going for a ride and inviting a friend and wearing baggy shorts and a hoodie.

[Elefantino]

It is a losing battle.

Repeat. It is a losing battle.

Go to Walmart. Look in the frozen foods section. What vendor has the most shelf space? Banquet. The reason? Things like this.

http://hannaford.gsnrecipes.com/GetImage.aspx?vector=d5159MZtKoLOu8KVaiUAW+NgRpRqC xtWAZbG+kWHrkke21xRZClo8jdaqitFi03g

This meal will set you back 88 cents.

88 cents.

It's full of fat. Full of sodium. Not good for you.

But it's 88 cents. And they fly off the shelves. Fly.

And we wonder ... hmm, why are we all of a sudden looking like the Wall-E people?

Because there is a lot of money to be made selling crap food that makes you unhealthy. And there is a lot of money to be made in treating the health care problems of the nation that eats the crap food.

We. Don't. Stand. A. Chance.

[Louis]

http://farm1.staticflickr.com/4/4985723_4fe9ce2acd_z.jpg?zz=1

[struggle]

Some other twist to this would be the advent of the microwave. Thanks NASA :hello:

The TV remote, the riding lawnmower, Air-conditioned vehicles etc etc.

It seems as we advance as a people we build things to make our life easier yet in the end for most people it makes it worse at the expense of thier health.

80 years ago when A/C was not readily available people had to sit out outside on hot summer nights and be cooled by an electric fan. It would not have been a fun way to be fat. Oh wait need to use the politcally correct term overweight. Growing up we did not have A/C in our home. I can't imagine sleeping in heat like that being obese

Fact is all our advancements make for being overweight OK/tolerable now days.

If you stepped back in time 80 years you just wouldn't be uncomfortable being overweight it would have been down right difficult to even get there.

But now days no problem.

I also am not for big goverment stepping in to tell me how to eat. Government has screwed up enough stuff as it is. Also a fair amount of politicians have proven themselves the lack of being able to push away from the table. Not much help there

As for employing someone if two people came in with the same qualifications and one was of healthy weight and the other being a lard I would hire the healthy one. Why would I anyone knowingly put their buisness at risk with these people is beyond me. It only helps support the trend. We (America) have only just started to see the tip of the ice berg on this. It is much bigger than most want to admit.

Seems some where a study was done on people that smoked and drank but were of normal weight against those that were over weight and I thought the smokers and drinkers came out better in the study primarly due overall cost of health since they were in the normal weight category. Maybe someone can recall it?

[LegendRider]

Saw this in the NY Times today:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/17/health/learning-to-be-lean.html?_r=1&nl=todaysheadlines&emc=tha25

[Elefantino]

On a recent cross-country flight, I had the aisle seat. Next to me was a huge man. Huge. Don't know how he squeezed himself into the seat but most of him spilled over into those of us on either side. His bulk made sitting straight impossible. In order to avoid being clipped by the beverage cart I would have had to contort myself sideways, not the most comfortable position.

Fortunately, the flight attendant announced one seat remaining in first class and I was in her face with hand raised before she finished the announcement. It cost me an extra $150 but was well worth it. (No, I didn't take free booze; I don't drink.)

But although most airlines have passed policies that purport to require Mr. Big Guy to pay for two seats, those policies are rarely enforced. As such, you get situations like mine, and this extreme on a now-infamous American flight where the man had to essentially stand the whole flight.

http://i.huffpost.com/gen/123665/thumbs/s-OBESE-MAN-ON-AMERICAN-AIRLINES-large.jpg

Also: Airlines can charge hefty fees if your bag weighs more than 50 pounds (unless it's to save the backs of baggage handlers) yet not charge extra for hefty passengers.

[CNY rider]

In today's NY Times.
I was not aware of this provision of the new health care law:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/17/health/learning-to-be-lean.html?hp

Snippet: As one of the many outgrowths of the sweeping federal health care law, health insurers and employers must now pay the cost of screening children for obesity and providing them with appropriate counseling.

With about one in three children in the United States obese or overweight, according to government statistics, the need for such programs is clear. But, experts say, creating them will be challenging. Other than intensive hospital-based programs, few proven models exist for helping children and adolescents achieve and maintain a healthier weight, and researchers do not even fully understand the factors that contributed to the rapid rise in childhood obesity in recent years. “If this were easy, if there were clear outcomes for success, we would be investing in these,” said Dr. Samuel R. Nussbaum, the chief medical officer for WellPoint, one of the nation’s largest health insurers.

[rugbysecondrow]

Part of my opinion is colored by using public transportation, specifically commuter trains. There are folks who ride the train every day, but are just too fat for the train. These are similar people who have to rest half way from the station to the train because they are winded or they have to use a bag with wheels because they lack the basic fitness to carry it. I understand not wanting to run a 5k or ride a 10 mile route, but when you lack the fitness to perform basic functions in your daily life, when you are too fat for a train or a plane, at what point does a trigger go off? At what point does the basic desire for survival kick in? Apparently it doesn't for some, but luckily it does for others.

Friday I flew from Chicago to Baltimore and sat next to one of those guys who purchased two seats because he was so large. It wasn't his size that made me uncomfortable though it was the noise he made sleeping. The poor guy sounded like he was struggling with every breath. Just a damn shame.



On a recent cross-country flight, I had the aisle seat. Next to me was a huge man. Huge. Don't know how he squeezed himself into the seat but most of him spilled over into those of us on either side. His bulk made sitting straight impossible. In order to avoid being clipped by the beverage cart I would have had to contort myself sideways, not the most comfortable position.

Fortunately, the flight attendant announced one seat remaining in first class and I was in her face with hand raised before she finished the announcement. It cost me an extra $150 but was well worth it. (No, I didn't take free booze; I don't drink.)

But although most airlines have passed policies that purport to require Mr. Big Guy to pay for two seats, those policies are rarely enforced. As such, you get situations like mine, and this extreme on a now-infamous American flight where the man had to essentially stand the whole flight.

http://i.huffpost.com/gen/123665/thumbs/s-OBESE-MAN-ON-AMERICAN-AIRLINES-large.jpg

Also: Airlines can charge hefty fees if your bag weighs more than 50 pounds (unless it's to save the backs of baggage handlers) yet not charge extra for hefty passengers.

[54ny77]

Hey Elefantino, that was you? Thanks for sharing your pretzels by the way. Sorry I took up so much space. Good news: AX Lightness said I should be ok for the new seatpost.

:banana:

On a recent cross-country flight, I had the aisle seat. Next to me was a huge man. Huge. Don't know how he squeezed himself into the seat but most of him spilled over into those of us on either side.
http://i.huffpost.com/gen/123665/thumbs/s-OBESE-MAN-ON-AMERICAN-AIRLINES-large.jpg

[Ti Designs]

This meal will set you back 88 cents.

88 cents.

It's full of fat. Full of sodium. Not good for you.

But it's 88 cents. And they fly off the shelves.


It's been almost 10 minutes since I last pissed someone off. I'm overdue, so here goes...

88 cents, full of fat and sodium - sounds like an endurance athlete's dream! There are all sorts of regulations being put in place to limit the availability of cheap, high fat foods, this is called discrimination against those of us who are very active and need more fat and sodium in our diets. It's bad enough that my health insurance costs have gone up 1400% over the years, as part of that expense they offer free programs to help me lose weight or quit smoking. Now they want to limit what I can eat because some other segment of the population can't see the number on the scale 'cause their gut is in the way? Yes, that's called discrimination. Can someone please explain why there's handicapped access to my bike shop? It's because we're not allowed to discriminate against that very small percentage of people who can't walk, but would like to enter the bike shop - and I have no problems with that. When you start saying that sugary drinks can't be sold as schools or government buildings, I have a problem with that.

Here's my suggestion: Don't take the cheap, high fat, high sodium products off the shelf. Put a small mirror on every box, maybe bump the price up to 90 cents to cover the cost. If you can't see the whole width of your body in that mirror from an arms length away, DON'T BUY IT.

Seriously, this is a question of regulation vs. education - which one is better now and in the future. I can't think of many cases where regulation has been an effective solution, can you?

On the brighter side, what I said at first about fruits and vegetables not advertising, but junk food does isn't exactly correct. McDonalds has started to advertise their farmers and their products. They show images of lettuce and potatoes as they are being grown in an effort to get consumers to buy them after they've been sitting under heat lamps all day.

[jblande]

stop:
corn lobby
beef and poultry lobby


watch:
food, inc.

[AngryScientist]

When you start saying that sugary drinks can't be sold as schools or government buildings, I have a problem with that.



i agree!

when i'm riding a hundred miles in the heat, nothing beats stopping at a vending machine and drinking a cold coke.

[fiamme red]

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/17/health/learning-to-be-lean.html?src=recg&pagewanted=all

[Louis]

When you start saying that sugary drinks can't be sold as schools or government buildings, I have a problem with that.

As far as schools go, parents / adults have to help kids make the correct choices. If you had legal vending machines in schools with cigs, beer, vodka, pot and crystal meth kids would buy it. Just because kids are willing or want to do something doesn't mean we should let them.

[struggle]

The school my children go to (Public) they took all the normal pop out of the vending machines and filled them with all diet stuff :crap:

I would much rather my kid drink some good ole corn sugar then a highly modified diet pop that has proven cancer ties. It is a losing situation.

Moderation goes a long ways but that has to be learned at home not at school. Diet pop solves nothing other than allowing kids to get addicted to one more modified chemical process.

[Louis]

Lately I've been drinking the zero cal SoBe stuff. Seems to be relatively harm-free...

http://popsop.com/wp-content/uploads/sobe_ashley_green_1.jpg

[Der_Kruscher]

Chiming in a little late here but just a few personal observations:

I began to eat much better after a move from the Detroit area to Seattle and later San Francisco where zoning makes it much harder to find fast food and chains such as Applebee's, Outback, etc. I didn't so much make an active decision to quit eating such foods but when you're not surrounded by it it's an easy choice to make. I can't say that I miss any of that stuff too much and certainly don't feel robbed of choices. Anyway, that in combination with being surrounded by a generally fitter population was a stepping stone to making better food choices in my life - I still don't eat perfectly but I bet that I'd be 15-20lbs heavier if I were still in Detroit.

Also, I don't think that this has been mentioned in this thread but the shift to two income households has probably had a large impact on our general health. I'm lucky enough to be a stay at home dad and so have time to plan meals make them with a minimum of processed ingredients (which also requires more $). Still, even with the available time it's not always easy - I can't imagine working 40+ hours a week and still being able to commit to healthy meals in the same way.

[Ti Designs]

As far as schools go, parents / adults have to help kids make the correct choices. If you had legal vending machines in schools with cigs, beer, vodka, pot and crystal meth kids would buy it. Just because kids are willing or want to do something doesn't mean we should let them.

Once again it comes down to a question of education vs. regulation. There's a big difference between helping kids make the ride choices and taking away the options. Education has a chance at working, from what I've seen kids in school still have access to all of the above, just not from vending machines.

[Louis]

Once again it comes down to a question of education vs. regulation.

And many times with children I think regulation (i.e. "because I said so") is the simplest way to go. Clearly it helps if you can do if with education, and the more buy-in you get the better, but we're talking kids here, not adults who are free to make their own choices.

[1centaur]

Education in theory, regulation when the theory's really, really not working. We've certainly tried education. Availability is a very important part of the problem. No soda machines in schools can be an educational tool in itself.

[Andrewlcox]

I just left the grocery store and my cashier actually commented on my shopping cart as being the healthiest cart all day. I blamed it on my wife but thanks to her she has made a difference in my diet. It's all choice and lifestyle changes. I actually got turned around and semi-lost in Wal-Mart the other day because I hadn't been in there for over 6 months.

[Rueda Tropical]

Once again it comes down to a question of education vs. regulation. There's a big difference between helping kids make the ride choices and taking away the options. Education has a chance at working, from what I've seen kids in school still have access to all of the above, just not from vending machines.

The school has no obligation to provide children with things that are detrimental to their health. Actually the opposite should be true.

Parents and children are free to do whatever outside of school and have all the choices they want in clothing, diet and otherwise outside of school does not obligate the school to mimic those choices in school. Want to wear fishnets and a micro-miniskirt or pants half way down your but while chugging a king size coke. It's a free country. Schools however are supposed to have codes of behavior.

[comptechgsr]

I don't mind people pigging out because while aware of the health risks, it's the people that pig out and don't know the harm of the ingested foods.

[Ti Designs]

The school has no obligation to provide children with things that are detrimental to their health. Actually the opposite should be true.


You've made the bold assumption that everybody in school is overweight, therefor sugary drinks should be eliminated and low calorie substitutes should be offered. When I graduated high school I was 5'10" 120 pounds and trained hard enough to race with the pros. What you are calling detrimental to their health is what I call enough calorie density to keep me from eating all day long.

[Louis]

Yet another case of the "bad apples" spoiling it for everyone else. This is hardly a precedent.

[Louis]

In a related matter, I was just reading about chef Paula Deen's revelation that she was diagnosed with Type 2 diabetes...three years ago. Given the type of recipes she's known for, it's interesting that it took her that long to share that tidbit with her fans.

[Ti Designs]

Yet another case of the "bad apples" spoiling it for everyone else. This is hardly a precedent.


By bad apple you mean someone who is too active to fit under the big lump somewhere near the center of the bell curve? So I can now refer to all those pro racers that so many forum members idolize as bad apples?

I'm honestly trying to understand the common thinking here. I was born with what I like to think of as a defective brain, there's no short term memory transfer. This means I can't remember sequences and I have the sense of direction of a 2 year old, but for the same reason it means advertising has no effect on me. This concept of a "healthy diet" is a good example, most people have a clear view of what a healthy diet is. This is based on what has been beaten into their heads over their lifetime. When someone says "healthy diet", your brain pulls up that mental image. Mine doesn't. I think of a diet as fuel for an individual, take the individual out of the picture and you're going to get it wrong most of the time. Let's see, I eat two to three times the average with a higher fat content. My car eats 93 octane gasoline, and don't get me started on vegans. Switch any of those three around and it doesn't work. I may be wrong here, but my guess is that taking away a few soft drinks from obese children isn't going to reverse the trend - let's revisit this in 10 years to find out.

My real question is when do you start to expect people to start thinking for themselves? This is really the part that scares me because the standards keep getting lowered. Lowering standards never works - can't balance the budget, raise the debt ceiling. Can someone please explain to me how that's going to work on a sustained basis??? The other thing that scares me is our tendency to protect our children from everything. At some point they have to enter the real world, it would be nice if they were the least bit prepared for that. Just an example: There's a woman who lives near my auto mechanic with her young son. She yells at every car that passes her house to watch out for her son who's playing in the yard. At some point that kid is going to leave home and get hit by a car. It would be far better to teach the kid about safety, but that would be expecting him to learn and understand - perhaps that's too much to ask. An isolated case? In 2011 over 900 people got hit by trains - and those things don't exactly sneak up on you!

My suggestion is that nutrition is taught in grade school much like math, science of history. And when I say taught, I mean to thinking children, not memorizing drones. Diet should be based on who you are and what you do, not this stupid "healthy diet" crap. And perhaps children should have a glimpse at the long term effects of their actions should they decide not to listen. Then maybe children would start to rethink their parent's health and the learning process could work it's way into the home.

Clearly my views and methods aren't going to work, who would have a nutrition class in school? It's just our national health, nothing we really need to worry about (it's hard to put a real dollar figure on it). So, we deal with it in a method I call my lawn theory. I come from a long line of people who can't grow a lawn. I watched my father do the same thing year after year, it never worked. When I bought my house I tried the same thing, and to my shock it didn't work. I could do the same thing every year in the hope that maybe a blade of grass would sprout, or I could see that it's pointless. Now it's a source of humor. The grass seed bag is now full of packing peanuts so it looks full, I use the hose to knock chipmonks off the fence and I don't have to waste my time with the lawn mower. The way the country is dealing with it's weight problem is very much the same. Since 1964 the presidents council on fitness has recorded average weight gain and adjusted it's standards 14 times. The programs they have come up with are little more than empty bags full of packing peanuts. And somehow I'm the bad apple...


For those who would say that even a tiny change is good, I offer this punch line from a joke: "So Mrs. Lincoln, how did you like the play?"

[cfox]

Ti, they're kids. It's their job to do stupid things, and that is fine. No amount of 'education' will stop them from making dumb choices. You want to teach a class that shows kids the effects of soda and bad nutrition, and them send them to cafeteria and give them a choice of water, milk, and coke? A seven year old lacks the perspective to think, 'hey, I'm not a budding endurance athlete, so coke for me is not a good choice. Water please.' It's ok to limit choices for little kids. It's called being a parent. As they get older, they get to make more choices on their own and if you've done your job, most of them will be the right ones.That's sorta how it's supposed to work.

[Pete Serotta]

one of our daughters teaches First Grade in Durham County NC. Some of the kids have two strikes before 2nd grade already.

Parent involvement is very important and even more so as the education budget and staff are decreased. :crap: :crap: PETE


Ti, they're kids. It's their job to do stupid things, and that is fine. No amount of 'education' will stop them from making dumb choices. You want to teach a class that shows kids the effects of soda and bad nutrition, and them send them to cafeteria and give them a choice of water, milk, and coke? A seven year old lacks the perspective to think, 'hey, I'm not a budding endurance athlete, so coke for me is not a good choice. Water please.' It's ok to limit choices for little kids. It's called being a parent. As they get older, they get to make more choices on their own and if you've done your job, most of them will be the right ones.That's sorta how it's supposed to work.

[goonster]

it's interesting that it took her that long to share that tidbit with her fans.
Hey, negotiating with Novo Nordisk (http://news.bostonherald.com/track/inside_track/view/20220118paula_cooks_up_diabetes_drug_endorsement/srvc=home&position=also) takes time.

[Bob Loblaw]

As an at-home dad, this stuff is my bread and butter.

I am sort of in the middle between this POV and Ti's. I think education does need to happen, but it needs to be done by the parents. 6 hours a day of lifestyle education at school won't do a lick of good if a kid comes home to a family sitting on the couch watching Access Hollywood and scarfing corn chips and bon bons. We need to set a healthy example for our kids, and teach them how to make healthy decisions.

Kids are a lot smarter than we think. They are kids and they are impulsive and have short attention spans, and I think parents confuse those things with lack of ability to understand. My kids are 8 and 10, and they understand the concept of the glycemic index, the roles of carbohydrate, protein, fiber and fat in a diet, and conceptually what a calorie is and why they sometimes get cranky in the car on the way home from swimming.

BL

Ti, they're kids. It's their job to do stupid things, and that is fine. No amount of 'education' will stop them from making dumb choices. You want to teach a class that shows kids the effects of soda and bad nutrition, and them send them to cafeteria and give them a choice of water, milk, and coke? A seven year old lacks the perspective to think, 'hey, I'm not a budding endurance athlete, so coke for me is not a good choice. Water please.' It's ok to limit choices for little kids. It's called being a parent. As they get older, they get to make more choices on their own and if you've done your job, most of them will be the right ones.That's sorta how it's supposed to work.

[redir]

I have not read every page in this thread so sorry if some one already brought this up. But first of all I totally agree with the OP and he's not being mean to obese people just observing a phenomenon in our society.

The point I want to make is that this phenomenon has been used as a political weapon by lets face it folks, the right wing pundits and media for bashing Michelle Obama and her initiative to get a healthy diet in our schools for our children and their future.

It's really a sad statement on the current affairs in the US.

[benb]

That's kind of creepy Ti is constantly going into schools to buy his soda... come on man, you can probably make it to the gas station before you bonk. :p

I was the same way in high school, as were many of my peers who worked out a lot.. we had access to junk.. we didn't get fat. But would we have had better athletic performances if the school was making quality food available to make up those calorie deficits? Probably. Based on going to reunions 90% of the class kept eating that stuff and then got fat when their activity level dropped off.

[SamIAm]

I have not read every page in this thread so sorry if some one already brought this up. But first of all I totally agree with the OP and he's not being mean to obese people just observing a phenomenon in our society.

The point I want to make is that this phenomenon has been used as a political weapon by lets face it folks, the right wing pundits and media for bashing Michelle Obama and her initiative to get a healthy diet in our schools for our children and their future.

It's really a sad statement on the current affairs in the US.

What science are we planning to use to establish a healthy diet? It seems like the research is all over the place on this subject. Should my kids be subject to a vegan diet if that is what Michelle Obama promotes, how about a raw foods only diet, Atkins, South Beach etc. Who decides? I guess parents can always choose to send lunch with their child, which I assume is still an option at all public schools. Do we reach the point that school officials search the kids brown bags and confiscate when necessary? Do kids need to step on a scale before buying that ice cream or soda?

Please just teach my children reading, writing and arithmetic, let me do the rest.

[54ny77]

Steak and arugula for all. :bike:

Should my kids be subject to a vegan diet if that is what Michelle Obama promotes

[Ray]

Should my kids be subject to a vegan diet if that is what Michelle Obama promotes...
No, you should absolutely feed them nothing but junk food because that's the opposite of what she promotes. That'll show her.

-Ray

[SamIAm]

No, you should absolutely feed them nothing but junk food because that's the opposite of what she promotes. That'll show her.

-Ray

How about I feed my children what I want and you feed your children what Michelle wants? I forget what her credentials are with regard to nutrition. Maybe you could remind me.

And I'm not trying to "show" her anything except that I don't need governments involvement in raising my children.

[Ti Designs]

A seven year old lacks the perspective to think, 'hey, I'm not a budding endurance athlete, so coke for me is not a good choice.

I wasn't a normal seven year old. Take away the constant bombardment of advertising and they would be forced to think. Since that's never going to happen, you have schools and regulations and parents to combat the forces of marketing. I'm so glad I don't have kids...

[Ray]

How about I feed my children what I want and you feed your children what Michelle wants? I forget what her credentials are with regard to nutrition. Maybe you could remind me.
She's doing what ALL first ladies do - PROMOTING something generally good. Promoting, not requiring, not mandating, suggesting people should pay attention to good nutrition. THIS is controversial? Laura Bush would be doing the same type of thing - it was education and literacy with her, how terrible!

You feed your kids what you want - mine are grown and responsible for their own nutrition. I think we fed them pretty well when they were growing up, but I wish I'd fed them MORE like she's recommending, not less.

-Ray

[redir]

The government is already involved in raising your children. Before the days of right wing 'pundits' getting rich off of spreading lies and propaganda through radio shows and Faux Newz and dividing the nation it was actually embraced.

[buldogge]

How about we all just eat healthier (who among us can't stand an improvement?) and stop turning every little thing into a political ploy???

No one is coming for your guns (or anything else), get a grip.

-Mark in St. Louis

How about I feed my children what I want and you feed your children what Michelle wants? I forget what her credentials are with regard to nutrition. Maybe you could remind me.

And I'm not trying to "show" her anything except that I don't need governments involvement in raising my children.

[fiamme red]

The government is already involved in raising your children. Before the days of right wing 'pundits' getting rich off of spreading lies and propaganda through radio shows and Faux Newz and dividing the nation it was actually embraced.General Jack D. Ripper: "Mandrake, do you realize that in addition to fluoridating water, why, there are studies underway to fluoridate salt, flour, fruit juices, soup, sugar, milk... ice cream. Ice cream, Mandrake, children's ice cream!"

[SamIAm]

How about we all just eat healthier (who among us can't stand an improvement?) and stop turning every little thing into a political ploy???

No one is coming for your guns (or anything else), get a grip.

-Mark in St. Louis

Once again, I'm not against eating healthier, but how do you know what eating healthier looks like? I currently subscribe to everything in moderation.

[norcalbiker]

WOW!!!

I want my 5 minutes of my life back. :crap:

[leooooo]

It's more about portion size than anything else.

[benb]

It really is about portion size.. because they change out what is "bad for you" very often.

Although I find it hard to go wrong with buying food that grows/crawls/walks/flies/swims instead of stuff that is cooked up in an industrial vat.

[redir]

General Jack D. Ripper: "Mandrake, do you realize that in addition to fluoridating water, why, there are studies underway to fluoridate salt, flour, fruit juices, soup, sugar, milk... ice cream. Ice cream, Mandrake, children's ice cream!"
On my top ten list of all time greats!

What science are we planning to use to establish a healthy diet? It seems like the research is all over the place on this subject. Should my kids be subject to a vegan diet if that is what Michelle Obama promotes, how about a raw foods only diet, Atkins, South Beach etc. Who decides? I guess parents can always choose to send lunch with their child, which I assume is still an option at all public schools. Do we reach the point that school officials search the kids brown bags and confiscate when necessary? Do kids need to step on a scale before buying that ice cream or soda?

Please just teach my children reading, writing and arithmetic, let me do the rest.

That's borderline hysteria Sam, no one is saying that. You know of the food pyramid right? As it states on the usda web site, "It's not a rigid prescription but a general guide that lets you choose a healthful diet that's right for you." It's definitely not vegan and it's definitely not FEMA camps either, it comes from nutrition science. If you are one to believe that science is not to be trusted then I don't know what to say. But you are arguing to the extremes suggesting the government is going to enforce dietary law or something, no one is saying that.

[gemship]

A friend once told me as it was told to him long ago by a practicing vegan to avoid all foods with the color white. Think about that, there's some truth to it.

Recently at a group men's meeting we discussed diet, food portion was a topic and it was also said that half of what we consume should be vegetables.

[gemship]

the best way to get calcium may be milk up to a point of age beyond infancy but for most of us that calcium can be found in broccoli, kale, other super greens.

Fruit juices are really a luxury and bad for the enamel of teeth, get your vitamin c with a proper release thru eating fruit rather than drinking it.

[Jaq]

Steak and arugula for all. :bike:

With a dry vodka martini and a cigarette.

Oh, and a slice of cheesecake & an Irish coffee for dessert.

[cfox]

I wasn't a normal seven year old. Take away the constant bombardment of advertising and they would be forced to think. Since that's never going to happen, you have schools and regulations and parents to combat the forces of marketing. I'm so glad I don't have kids...

I'm glad you were a super special child. "Forced to think"?? Get off it man, teaching your kids to make good decisions and setting some guidelines is not antithetical to them learning to think for themselves. I coach many, many kids, and I see this all the time; parents that let their kids make every decision on their own end up with behavior problems and little *****heads who do not know what the word NO is.

[SamIAm]

That's borderline hysteria Sam, no one is saying that. You know of the food pyramid right? As it states on the usda web site, "It's not a rigid prescription but a general guide that lets you choose a healthful diet that's right for you." It's definitely not vegan and it's definitely not FEMA camps either, it comes from nutrition science. If you are one to believe that science is not to be trusted then I don't know what to say. But you are arguing to the extremes suggesting the government is going to enforce dietary law or something, no one is saying that.

I'm not so sure. Of course I don't think that government is going to enforce dietary law, but I am less sure that they don't want to and that bothers me. And you can't refer to this as settled science, the mass of a proton, the speed of light etc. are settled science. The best dietary plan, not so much. In fact it may even differ by individual. The list of good for you and not good for you foods changes weekly it seems.

[Jaq]

+1 about portion size, as Leo & BenB said. There was a telling article in Time magazine 3 or 4 years back about the differences in portion sizes over the years - really a great bit of photo journalism.

It was pictures of all our favorite foods; burgers, cokes, ice-cream cones, etc., starting in the 1920s up through about 2008. The difference in size was staggering.

Around the corner from my house is a Cheesecake Factory; I remember going in there a while back with my wife and ordering a couple entrees, and suddenly our little table for two had become a mountain of food.

Anyway, for a bit of levity, and with the warning that it's NOT SAFE FOR WORK, here's a little Patton Oswalt (http://youtu.be/NPCB5sAQKa0).

Oh, and the KFC Bowl bit: Patton Oswalt, KFC Bowl (http://youtu.be/tfan5MacmsI)

[Karin Kirk]

This has been a great discussion and an interesting topic. I'd hate to see it further devolve into political nitpicking.

I think most of us can agree that with regards to obesity, we do not have to turn to the cutting edge of nutrition science. We can safely stick to basic, time-tested concepts like adjusting the amount we eat to correlate with the amount we exercise, or limiting foods that are not laden with excessive amounts of fat, sodium, antibiotics, hormones and other scary ingredients. I don't think you'll find much controversy, scientific or otherwise, at that level.

[Elefantino]

+1 about portion size, as Leo & BenB said. There was a telling article in Time magazine 3 or 4 years back about the differences in portion sizes over the years - really a great bit of photo journalism.
Something similar here (http://www.divinecaroline.com/22177/49492-portion-size-vs-now).

[Jaq]

Of course I don't think that government is going to enforce dietary law, but I am less sure that they don't want to and that bothers me.

Not trying to nitpick, and my point is a bit tangential, but I will say that the recent California law requiring restaurants to include total calories of entrees had me paying attention to what I was ordering.

On a recent car trip, we stopped at a Marie Calendars and I noticed the calories and was suprised by the numbers. I try to eat light (when on car trips), but I have to say, having the calorie information there really made me think about what I was ordering. I ended up ordering a little lighter.

[SamIAm]

I think most of us can agree that with regards to obesity, we do not have to turn to the cutting edge of nutrition science. We can safely stick to basic, time-tested concepts like adjusting the amount we eat to correlate with the amount we exercise, or limiting foods that are not laden with excessive amounts of fat, sodium, antibiotics, hormones and other scary ingredients. I don't think you'll find much controversy, scientific or otherwise, at that level.

This subject of proper nutrition has been on my mind of late and I have read a few books on the subject and find myself very frustrated at the very lack of basic time tested concepts that you refer to.

In fact there is a book "Why we get fat" by Taube where he lays out the case that calories in/out have nothing to do with weight gain and that there is much to be desired in a high fat, protein, very low carb (only the ones found in certain vegetables), no fruit diet.

I'm not saying that he has it right, but it shows how much diversity there is around what most of us would consider the basics that you refer to.

The science seems constantly in flux and I find myself in the camp of all things in moderation for the time being.

But I want more.

[SamIAm]

Not trying to nitpick, and my point is a bit tangential, but I will say that the recent California law requiring restaurants to include total calories of entrees had me paying attention to what I was ordering.

On a recent car trip, we stopped at a Marie Calendars and I noticed the calories and was suprised by the numbers. I try to eat light (when on car trips), but I have to say, having the calorie information there really made me think about what I was ordering. I ended up ordering a little lighter.

I am in total agreement with providing consumers with the information to make good decisions. But the conservative in me wishes that it had found its origins in the customer demanding it of the restaurant and the restaurant responding.

[Louis]

But the conservative in me wishes that it had found its origins in the customer demanding it of the restaurant and the restaurant responding.

I think most folks would rather not know the number of calories in that Whopper. (and how long you'd have to exercise to burn them off)

[benb]

In fact there is a book "Why we get fat" by Taube where he lays out the case that calories in/out have nothing to do with weight gain and that there is much to be desired in a high fat, protein, very low carb (only the ones found in certain vegetables), no fruit diet.

I'm not saying that he has it right, but it shows how much diversity there is around what most of us would consider the basics that you refer to.

The science seems constantly in flux and I find myself in the camp of all things in moderation for the time being.



You ought to be way more skeptical of this then calories in/calories out. Dig into the science and you will see one of the biggest issues with studying diet is people misrepresent how much food they are eating in the studies, often grossly. As several of the links pointed to by others attest, marketing, portion sizes, and packaging sizes can totally fool us into eating much larger quantities.

At the most logical level you know if calories are restricted to 0 the person is going to lose weight.. why is it so hard to believe a calorie restriction that still allows the person to survive won't produce weight loss.

I think the basic issue is people need their free will taken away, the food taken away, or have to be forced to burn more calories. Like the military recruits who get sent off to lose weight. If they have no access to food other then what they are given and they are compelled to work out, they're going to get fit & lose weight. This is the same thing going on in the "camp" environment on programs like Biggest loser. Those people are all huge and if anyone has a problem it's them, and when control is taken away from them they lose weight like crazy.

But there is a huge appeal to any theory/study that proposes people should be able to eat as much as they want and not exercise as long as they use certain recipes.. so it's always going to get lots of press and many people will always want to believe it.

[Rueda Tropical]

You've made the bold assumption that everybody in school is overweight, therefor sugary drinks should be eliminated and low calorie substitutes should be offered. When I graduated high school I was 5'10" 120 pounds and trained hard enough to race with the pros. What you are calling detrimental to their health is what I call enough calorie density to keep me from eating all day long.

You're making the case that soda pop is an essential element of an athletes training and so have to be available at schools? OK, thats a new theory to me -you can believe what you like.

But soda, candy, fried food, etc., are not an essential part of any diet and are causing huge health problems for large segments of school populations. Why should a school be obligated to provide them?

[SamIAm]

You ought to be way more skeptical of this then calories in/calories out. Dig into the science and you will see one of the biggest issues with studying diet is people misrepresent how much food they are eating in the studies, often grossly. As several of the links pointed to by others attest, marketing, portion sizes, and packaging sizes can totally fool us into eating much larger quantities.

At the most logical level you know if calories are restricted to 0 the person is going to lose weight.. why is it so hard to believe a calorie restriction that still allows the person to survive won't produce weight loss.

I think the basic issue is people need their free will taken away, the food taken away, or have to be forced to burn more calories. Like the military recruits who get sent off to lose weight. If they have no access to food other then what they are given and they are compelled to work out, they're going to get fit & lose weight. This is the same thing going on in the "camp" environment on programs like Biggest loser. Those people are all huge and if anyone has a problem it's them, and when control is taken away from them they lose weight like crazy.

But there is a huge appeal to any theory/study that proposes people should be able to eat as much as they want and not exercise as long as they use certain recipes.. so it's always going to get lots of press and many people will always want to believe it.

All good points, but I didn't raise that example because I was promoting the science behind the book, only that there is real confusion out there for someone who is trying to do better.

[Louis]

only that there is real confusion out there for someone who is trying to do better.

Actually, I think there is very little confusion: Fewer calories in, more exercise out.

Everything else is noise or wishful thinking.

It's very simple to state. Not as easy to do.

[Rueda Tropical]

What science are we planning to use to establish a healthy diet? It seems like the research is all over the place on this subject.

Yes there is everything from Atkins to Vegans put forth as healthy diet but you won't find any diet or nutritional theory that promotes soda, candy and empty fried calories as part of it's dietary regime. On that we can declare universal agreement among scientists who may disagree on everything else where diet is concerned.

Yes you are free to give your kid a big gulp with milky ways for breakfast but it's not Orwellian thought control if a school system declines to make that a menu choice.

[fiamme red]

In fact there is a book "Why we get fat" by Taube where he lays out the case that calories in/out have nothing to do with weight gain and that there is much to be desired in a high fat, protein, very low carb (only the ones found in certain vegetables), no fruit diet.You can lose weight on a Twinkie diet if you're maintaining a caloric deficit:

http://www.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/11/08/twinkie.diet.professor/index.html

Of course, it's much easier to overeat with a box of Twinkies in front of you than a bag of carrots or apples. :)

Taubes' book is full of fallacious reasoning. Here's a good review:

http://www.weightymatters.ca/2011/01/book-review-gary-taubes-why-we-get-fat.html

[SamIAm]

Actually, I think there is very little confusion: Fewer calories in, more exercise out.

Everything else is noise or wishful thinking.

It's very simple to state. Not as easy to do.

I'm not sure its as clear cut as you think, but the confusion I am referring to is more related to what is the best eating plan for your body, not how to lose weight.

[Kirk Pacenti]

Actually, I think there is very little confusion: Fewer calories in, more exercise out.

Everything else is noise or wishful thinking.

It's very simple to state. Not as easy to do.

Not easy...??? Some would argue impossible.

You would need to be accurate to within less than 1% to make it work. Even if you could track calorie intake that closely, there is no reliable way to track calorie output. Consider that if you consume just 20 calories a day more than you burn, over the course of a decade you'd gain nearly 21 lbs.

And if you consciously try to take in less than you burn you are living on, by definition, a semi-starvation diet doomed to fail in the long run. In short, homeostasis rules the day; calories in vs. calories out is a fallacy.

[Louis]

OK, let's get this straight. Unless you're throwing stuff up after eating, or taking ExLax, the only way to loose weight is to take in fewer calories than you use. The exact opposite of what you're trying to do with your bank account.

There is no diet in the world (with the exceptions noted above) that allows you to loose weight while consuming more than you use. I agree that your body and your mind fight you every step of the way, but somehow our grandparents managed to not be as overweight as we are, and I think we all know why.

[SamIAm]

Yes you are free to give your kid a big gulp with milky ways for breakfast but it's not Orwellian thought control if a school system declines to make that a menu choice.

I am not the one arguing for making those items menu choices, I am asking what science leads us to believe that we know precisely the menu choices to make available. And further, I don't have any issue with what mother government wants to place on the lunch menu as long as the child's parents can override in the form of a sack lunch.

[Kirk Pacenti]

OK, let's get this straight. Unless you're throwing stuff up after eating, or taking ExLax, the only way to loose weight is to take in fewer calories than you use. The exact opposite of what you're trying to do with your bank account.

There is no diet in the world (with the exceptions noted above) that allows you to loose weight while consuming more than you use. I agree that your body and your mind fight you every step of the way, but somehow our grandparents managed to not be as overweight as we are, and I think we all know why.


I'd agree that this is intuitive and what conventional wisdom has taught us for years. The science does not support it though...http://www.amazon.com/Good-Calories-Bad-Gary-Taubes/dp/B002BWQ58G/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1326914511&sr=1-2#reader_B002BWQ58G

[Louis]

The science does not support it though

I don't consider books written by crackpots to be "science."

[Karin Kirk]

I'm not sure its as clear cut as you think, but the confusion I am referring to is more related to what is the best eating plan for your body, not how to lose weight.
Yes, this was the point I was trying to make. The nuances of "ideal" nutrition are emerging science, and always will be. But the essentials of a general healthy diet in order to avoid obesity is not the same part of the conversation. Avoiding gross weight gain comes down to fairly simple science. The psychological factors are much more complex, but that is also a different part of the conversation.

[tuxbailey]

So......

are we talking about child abuse here?

[Jaq]

So......

are we talking about child abuse here?

Certainly the case has been made.

Obese child taken from parent (http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/health/2011/11/27/obese-third-grader-taken-from-family-placed-in-foster-care/)

[buldogge]

I just came from my regular Wednesday lunch duty at my son's school.

Lunch today was:

"spicy" pork and cabbage stir fry with long grain rice
lima bean and feta salad
mixed fruit "kabobs"
milk (or water)

What did your kids school serve today???

-Mark in St. Louis

[SamIAm]

I just came from my regular Wednesday lunch duty at my son's school.

Lunch today was:

"spicy" pork and cabbage stir fry with long grain rice
lima bean and feta salad
mixed fruit "kabobs"
milk (or water)

What did your kids school serve today???

-Mark in St. Louis

Was there a kosher option?

[buldogge]

Specialized diets are handled on an individual basis. The one kosher adherent @ school brought (supplemented, actually) her lunch today.

We also have (4) students with vegetarian options, and several students with various "allergies/intolerances".

Worth noting that it is a small school with ~100 students....but...there is no reason similar lunch programs couldn't be initiated on a larger scale. We cook simple/healthy meals.

BTW...(Gingrich would love this) the kids (in small groups) prepare the lunch 2 days a week. ;)

-Mark

Was there a kosher option?

[SamIAm]

Specialized diets are handled on an individual basis. The one kosher adherent @ school brought (supplemented, actually) her lunch today.

We also have (4) students with vegetarian options, and several students with various "allergies/intolerances".

Worth noting that it is a small school with ~100 students....but...there is no reason similar lunch programs couldn't be initiated on a larger scale. We cook simple/healthy meals.

BTW...(Gingrich would love this) the kids (in small groups) prepare the lunch 2 days a week. ;)

-Mark

Sounds like a good school you got there.

[gdw]

Sounds like an expensive private school.

[buldogge]

It is private...but...it operates on a sliding sale and over 70% of the student's families pay reduced rates. We are diverse, both ethnically AND socio-economically.

It is also ~60% the cost of most of the (non-religious) privates around.

Tuition is less than most public schools spend per student. We don't have computer labs or ipads for every student, FWIW, if that's the kinda place you were thinking of.

There is ZERO reason such food programs couldn't be implemented in public schools, and some people at the school have worked towards that exact goal with institutions interested in public health.

-Mark

Sounds like an expensive private school.

[Rueda Tropical]

I am not the one arguing for making those items menu choices, I am asking what science leads us to believe that we know precisely the menu choices to make available. And further, I don't have any issue with what mother government wants to place on the lunch menu as long as the child's parents can override in the form of a sack lunch.

I don't think you will get precise agreement on a particular diet regime. But to take 2 examples at opposite ends of the diet spectrum both a Vegan and a Paleo diet can yield healthy results, however a fast food diet will not. So you don't need to be precise -provide a variety of real unprocessed food and it will be a million times better then pizza, fries, burgers and a soda.

So far as been my experience a sack lunch is always an option thats what we do everyday.

[54ny77]

geez, can i stop by for leftovers?

I just came from my regular Wednesday lunch duty at my son's school.

Lunch today was:

"spicy" pork and cabbage stir fry with long grain rice
lima bean and feta salad
mixed fruit "kabobs"
milk (or water)

What did your kids school serve today???

-Mark in St. Louis

[gdw]

"There is ZERO reason such food programs couldn't be implemented in public schools, and some people at the school have worked towards that exact goal with institutions interested in public health."

Cost. I'm not trying to pick a fight but rural public schools don't have the funds for the food and staff to prepare it.

[junkfood]

I would just like to brag that my daughter chooses white milk at her school most of the time when she does not bring her lunch. The kids can choose between Chocolate, Strawberry, Juice, and White milk. She says that she likes strawberry the best, but it will make here grow the wrong way, and make her feel slow. She is only 5.

I know she (and my others) will not always make the right choices, but educating from day 1 about a healthier diet is up to us as parents. Teaching our children about living healthy should be no less important than teaching them to read, write, add, subtract, etc. If we leave education up to others what are we parents for?
Jake

[Karin Kirk]

Now that is interesting. I was curious about the school lunches so I looked up the lunch today in a Bozeman public school. I have heard much ado about healthy school lunches here so I was curious to see how we stacked up. Today's offering? Chicken nuggets and french fries. The horror! There is also an alternative lunch of cottage cheese and fruit, and no doubt that's a big seller (not).

That is too bad. I thought we'd come further than that here.

On a smaller scale, we at Kirk Frameworks have embarked into the world of tofu in our corporate kitchens. Thanks to some cross-hemispheric advice from the kitchen staff at Llewellyn Bicycles, we received some cooking tips and I think last night's tofu stir fry was the best yet! :p

[Ahneida Ride]

which is worse

Fat people ...

or

Big Brother monitoring us fat people ?


:bike:

[Ahneida Ride]

My real question is when do you start to expect people to start thinking for themselves?


Yup .... that's it ...

or


when do you start to expect Big Brother to start thinking for you ?

[buldogge]

Rural public schools are actually the perfect example...small populations, oftentimes with access to farms.

The staff at our son's school consists of ONE cook/teacher, the student's themselves, and parents who volunteer (serving/clean-up, no real cooking).

We have actually fostered a relationship with a "local" farmer (we're in the city)...Farmer Paul provides access to some produce as well as food education opportunities for the kids at his farm...a lot of the other food is bought at Soulard Market here in St. Louis as well as run-of-the-mill supermarkets when needed. Furthermore each family provides/donates some staples each year...Applesauce, rice, pasta, etc.

I guarantee we spend less on food than a public school using a food service...guarantee.

It does take involvement and commitment though...people are used to giving their kids over to the system and accepting the norms.

-Mark

"There is ZERO reason such food programs couldn't be implemented in public schools, and some people at the school have worked towards that exact goal with institutions interested in public health."

Cost. I'm not trying to pick a fight but rural public schools don't have the funds for the food and staff to prepare it.

[Louis]

It does take involvement and commitment though...people are used to giving their kids over to the system and accepting the norms.

Sounds like we have a candidate for Home Schooling / Feeding. ;)

[CNY rider]

"There is ZERO reason such food programs couldn't be implemented in public schools, and some people at the school have worked towards that exact goal with institutions interested in public health."

Cost. I'm not trying to pick a fight but rural public schools don't have the funds for the food and staff to prepare it.

Actually there is an unholy nexus of government and big industrial agriculture that needs to be brought to heel, and then the cost issue would be readily addressed.

Industrial production of corn and soy gets huge subsidies from the taxpayers, and that then gets turned into highly processed crap resembling food, which is forced into students at public schools (unless they bring lunch).

People want government out of their lives? Fine. Let's end the industrial corporate welfare programs that lead to the processed junk served in our schools. Let the local farmers have a shot at supplying school food needs.
Let our local school officials decide if pizza sauce or ketchup are actually vegetables instead of the federal govt. ramming that down their throats.

[buldogge]

Nope...not unless you happen to be an educator or have real world experience.

I had some friends who were actually un-schoolers...both their kids are a mess.

You choose what to feed your kids just like you choose how they are educated...you can't control every moment, so it's wise to control/influence the ones you can.

If people stood up and demanded better food programs (and education programs for that matter) then maybe we could start down that road...

Everyone can agree that the biggest difference in good schools and bad schools is parent involvement (as well as all the socio-economic context thereof). Similarly, I like to think we can agree the same in regards to eating choices/patterns and work to implement them into our greater society as a whole.

-Mark

Sounds like we have a candidate for Home Schooling / Feeding. ;)

[Louis]

Agreed.

Happily for me, all I have to worry about for child-nutrition is what to give my cats.

Everyone can agree that the biggest difference in good schools and bad schools is parent involvement (as well as all the socio-economic context thereof). Similarly, I like to think we can agree the same in regards to eating choices/patterns and work to implement them into our greater society as a whole.

[Seramount]

eating well requires educating oneself, seeking out nutritious foods, and often spending more money for these higher-quality items.

the generally ignorant, lazy, cheaper-is-good approach of the American consumer isn't usually focused on doing those things.

so, you get a bunch of overweight people who hand their pudgy kid a bag of sugar and think they're great parents.

de-evolution.

[Ti Designs]

I'm glad you were a super special child. "Forced to think"?? Get off it man, teaching your kids to make good decisions and setting some guidelines is not antithetical to them learning to think for themselves. I coach many, many kids, and I see this all the time; parents that let their kids make every decision on their own end up with behavior problems and little *****heads who do not know what the word NO is.

I know you weren't looking for an explanation here, but I happen to have one for you...

I still am a super special child. I have almost no memory transfer, which means anything you do involving sequences, I can't do. Few people have ever stopped to think about how much they do by sequence, it's probably a vast majority of what you do. Using a smart phone for example, the first time you use an app it's slow as you have to find your way to the part you need. After that you simply get there by sequence. For me a smart phone is useless, as if you had just picked one up that you never used before, and that's never going to change.

I've always struggled in school because their definition of leaning is what I don't have. When I went to school for computer science I started creating a tree structure database to help me understand the memory and why I'm so different. The first thing I looked at was how the tree structure was populated - in my case very poorly. The data goes in, but it's as if the links from parent note to child nodes disappear. This is my definition of ADD, but the number of lost links isn't all or nothing, so there are degrees to be defined. The most interesting thing I've found how the depth of the data is well sorted but the width is somewhat confused. There are a number of things where the senses can tell one dimension very accurately, but not the other - most things to do with frequency and amplitude for example. You have no problem telling 88 different notes on a piano, but you would be hard pressed to distinguish 10 different levels of loudness. The mind makes associations across the same level within the tree structure. The spoiled child syndrome is a perfect example.

If a child is isolated and forced to make all their own decisions, at some age they would come to grips with the fact that decisions have consequences, good or bad. By elimination others to identify with you have also eliminated the lateral confusion. In the case of real children given the responsibility to make decisions, they identify with others they see as more fortunate - this is a horizontal shift within the tree structure which happens all the time. The consequences of the actions of those they identify with are a vertical shift which doesn't doesn't happen. The end result are kids who identify with others and feel entitled, but take no responsibility for their own actions.

Another example I've found came when I started looking at fitness expenses along with the findings of the president's council on fitness. The catch phrase is "I need to get back in shape". My estimate is that more than half of that is due to identification with some other athlete. They were never really in shape. This makes getting back to that point almost impossible. This was nothing but a theory based on associations on the same level of the tree structure, which drives my investments, but my job allows me to do some real world testing. I started with my best friend, I've known him for a long time, never known him to be in shape, yet he often started a program to get back into shape. Time after time I've found the same thing, getting back into shape is really uncharted territory, what would make them think they know how to do this?

This brings me to the subject of thinking. "Never memorize what you can look up at a moment's notice" - replace "memorize" with "think about" and you have a working model of the brain - I have the FMRI scans to back that up. When you're asked to think about something, your brain goes to memory first. Given the amount of horizontal confusion that memory may not be so accurate, but it's your reality. Try this with 10 of your friends, ask them if they are good drivers. Take note of their answer, then ask why. Is this a god given skill, or did they gain this skill somehow? What is their definition of competence in driving and where are they on that scale? Keep the focus on their own driving, not how they see others. In most cases you will find the defense mechanism known as insult. You are now causing a conflict, thinking and what their memory tells them doesn't agree. You've caused someone to think.

If questioning someone's ability to drive causes outrage and insult (and I know that the same holds true for bike riding skills), how do you think they'll react when their ability to parent is put into question?

In a way I'm making a solid case for regulation here (which I against). Can't change the thinking of the parents, regulate the children. Understanding the cause of the problem does not present a solution.

As for myself, my own internal database is somewhat narrow and always dropping nodes if not entire limbs. It means I can't assume I know anything, nor am I entitled to anything. I've driven for 30 years, zero accidents, zero speeding tickets, zero violations. I've taken many performance driving schools and I'm always working on my car control. I know this goes far beyond the average, but nothing in my brain keeps telling me I'm a good driver, so I keep working at it. Not being a parent was a choice I made many years ago because I couldn't get to the point where I thought I could be a good parent. Not judging other parents is difficult to say the least, but if I can't do it it's not my place to judge others who try. I don't identify with athletes as so many other people do. My standards of physical condition are based on what I was at 18 years old. When I say I need to get back in shape, I really mean I'm going to try to erase 30 years. It's also uncharted territory, I'm going to fail...

The next time you pass judgement over what someone else is eating, stop and really think about it. Is your impression of what's healthy based on what your memory is telling you? If so, get past it and look at the bigger picture. Look at the person, look at what they are eating - does it make sense? Are you seeing the whole picture? Seeing a very overweight parent pile empty calories into a cart isn't very hard to figure out and it's fair to say that perhaps that parent should be the one doing the thinking. But I've had countless people tell me I'm going to get fat because of how I eat. There's no thinking involved in that, it's simply a memory association, and it's wrong. What's worse, it doesn't make and sense and yet it it's not causing anyone to stop and think.

I think Douglas Adams was right, if people's mouths stop moving their brains start working. It's an untested theory...

[toaster]

That was really good, Ti Designs!

We should all consider what our own minds are capable of creating before applying our judgements on others.