OT: Why I keep my house at < 60* in the winter

[Louis]

Greenhouse gas emitter map / list (http://ghgdata.epa.gov/ghgp/main.do#/facility/?q=Facility%20or%20Location&st=&fid=&lowE=14490000&highE=23000000&&g1=1&g2=1&g3=1&g4=1&g5=1&g6=1&g7=1&s1=1&s2=1&s3=1&s4=1&s5=1&s6=1&s7=1&s8=1&s9=1&s301=1&s302=1&s303=1&s304=1&s305=1&s306=1&s401=1&s402=1&s403=1&s404=1&s701=1&s702=1&s703=1&s704=1&s705=1&s706=1&s707=1&s708=1&s709=1&s710=1&s711=1&ss=&so=0&ds=E)

You can select individual states, and use the slider to control the display.

The 7th highest emitter of greenhouse gasses in the US is the Ameren UE Labadie plant about a 45 min ride from my house. Most of the energy used to heat my house is from the electric resistance furnace supplemented a bit by the propane gas stove. When the electric heat is on my meter spins like a top. I assume that that electricity is coming from the Labadie plant, which motivates me to keep the temp low...

[konstantkarma]

How do you stay warm Louis?

Here we have limited options for heating. Most people use oil or electricity. We have an oil furnace backup with heat pump when the temps are above ~35. I hate relying on oil, so I also supplement with 2 pellet stoves. These keep the house plenty warm except on the coldest days. Also, pellets are renewable and are carbon neutral.

We also looked at solar systems, but our house is in a forest :confused:

[AngryScientist]

louis, i admire your efforts at energy savings. between the low heat, cold showers and that integra you're managing to keep out of the landfill by a shoestring, you're really doing your part (i kid...)

seriously, i used to do the same thing when i was single and living alone, admittedly more for the $$ savings than the environmental impact. with a family, it's just not practical or worth the argument.

you should also consider what you can do to increase your home's efficiency. you may find that you can keep your house much warmer using less kw's or propane by doing small, inexpensive things like sealing up any gaps in the window frames, door frames, etc.

also, this year, at least around here is tremendous for heating the home with wood burning stoves and fireplaces. thanks to the numerous windy storms we had this year, there is a huge surplus of firewood people are dying to give away. those are free BTU's.

[Louis]

Sweatpants, sweatshirt, and a hat do the trick. Heating pads at the foot of the bed for the cats.

There's lots of insulation in the attic and my doors are in pretty good shape. Most of my losses are probably through the walls and the older windows. About half of the windows in the house were replaced by the previous owners. When I do the siding (will probably have to be done some time in the next few years) I'll replace the old windows and add insulation to the walls. If it's sunny and above 45* the heat won't run at all. At night if the temps are above 25* it won't run very often. The nighttime lows below 10* (none of those yet this year) are the killers.

My Nov electric bill was $45 (little to no heating). In Dec it jumped up to $95. In the Spring and Fall when I neither heat nor cool I can get the bill down to about $35 / month.

[Ti Designs]

Sweatpants, sweatshirt, and a hat do the trick. Heating pads at the foot of the bed for the cats.

I thought cats were the heating pads at the foot of the bed...


In 2004 I got divorced and I decided to keep the house, which meant I couldn't afford to both heat the house and eat. I learned to live at 50 degrees - it's not that bad. One morning it was much colder, low 40's. I checked the furnace, nothing wrong. I checked the power, nothing wrong. I checked the control box (that thing is smarter than I am), still nothing wrong. The cat had managed to fall asleep against the thermostat...

[tiretrax]

When I lived in DC, my apartment had no insulation and single pane windows. It was built in the 1800's. I couldn't get it warmer than 68 with the heater on full tilt. The first year, I had bills over $200 for a 600 s ft apartment. The subsequent years, I learned how to live with lower temps.

Karma, you should look into having a geothermal unit installed. Another option is wind - are there breezes strong enough to justify a wind system. There are some horizontal turbines for residential that should work.

[CNY rider]

I remember the thread about turning the shower on and just getting in, rather than waiting for the water to get hot.
I actually did that through the summer and into the fall.
Now our room is about 60F, and the well water is frigid so I wait for it to warm, but I fully intend to go back to conservation mode once winter ends.

[Karin Kirk]

Nice interactive database.
I see that's a coal plant. Subbituminous coal, which means lots of pollutants per unit of electricity. Do you know where the coal is from? Think of all the energy that goes into transporting it that you are also saving!

I admire your approach Louis! I go as far as I can too, especially with food, packaging and transportation. But you are a great example of refreshing conservation against the tide of bigger, better, cheaper that we seem to be embracing nowadays.

Keep up the great efforts! :)

[54ny77]

you must be single. :p

[saab2000]

I have a giant south facing window in my house and when I'm home starting about the beginning of February if I keep those curtains open and let the sun shine in the furnace doesn't run for hours.

Solar is huge and if a house is designed with some awareness of the sun's power it can make a giant difference. They don't even need to be bizarre dome homes with earthen berms and all that. Just an awareness of where the sun shines and how to take advantage of that.

[Frankwurst]

Ours stays at 64. No warmer. When Mrs. wurst says it's cold in here I say put more clothes on. :beer:

[Louis]

Do you know where the coal is from?

From their web site:

"Similar to other Midwestern utility companies, coal accounts for close to 85 percent of Ameren’s total generation. Low-sulfur coal from Wyoming’s Power River Basin (PRB) now represents the majority of coal used in our facilities."


you must be single. :p

How did you guess? :)

[Kontact]

I had always assumed the temp in my parent's house was to make sure we didn't return after college.

But I realize now, they are just cheap.

[Fishbike]

Don't have about a big ole fan in front of the trainer the I suppose.

[thendenjeck]

The cat had managed to fall asleep against the thermostat...


lol

[Jack Brunk]

Where the hell is the Kirk? Please build the thing with some of the money your saving by staying cold.

Thanks,

Your forum friends

[DKM]

i keep my thermostat at 62 and its perfect for me. Its Vegas tho... :banana:

[Bob Loblaw]

I think riding in the cold of winter is a great way to acclimate yourself to cold temps indoors. I have one of those programmable thermostats. It's set for 63 during the morning and evening hours, and 59 the rest of the time. If not for the family (especially the thin-blooded wife) I'd happily leave it at 59 all the time. Wearing a sweatshirt in the house is well worth the $100 a month in savings.

Like a lot of New England, our house uses oil heat, which I don't love. I didn't know pellet stoves are considered carbon neutral. Been looking into getting one for the living area...that's just extra incentive.

BL

[Louis]

Where the hell is the Kirk? Please build the thing with some of the money your saving by staying cold.

Hey Jack,

The one thing I don't have (and which money can't buy) is time, so saving on heating costs won't help there.

And I refuse to just toss all the components in a box and take it to the LBS to have them do it. So they're sitting in a box on my living room floor.

These days I'm only riding once every week or two anyway (unlike you guys who live where the weather's perfect) so there's no sense in rushing. I'll have it ready by spring...

[Louis]

I think riding in the cold of winter is a great way to acclimate yourself to cold temps indoors.

I use the same type of logic to not run the A/C in my car in the summer: It would be silly to try to keep cool in the car then go home, hop on the bike and ride in 95* weather. If you have to keep cool in the car, then you're more likely to stay inside and not ride in the heat.

If our grandparents could do it (no A/C, cold house) then we ought to be able to. (Unless we've become soft, which in many ways, I think we have.)

[MadRocketSci]

Snuggie

[akelman]

Slanket's work. Or so I'm told.

[Jack Brunk]

Hey Jack,

The one thing I don't have (and which money can't buy) is time, so saving on heating costs won't help there.

And I refuse to just toss all the components in a box and take it to the LBS to have them do it. So they're sitting in a box on my living room floor.

These days I'm only riding once every week or two anyway (unlike you guys who live where the weather's perfect) so there's no sense in rushing. I'll have it ready by spring...
Thanks for bumming me out. :)

[dekindy]

We replaced our 22-year old patio door this Fall and our house is significantly warmer. This large glass area is now warmer than our regular windows which are also 22-years old. Our windows and patio were pretty energy efficient for their time but obviously technology has advanced. There is nothing wrong with out windows but I am wondering if energy credits and increased efficiency would justify replacing them? They are Marvin wood windows which everybody have always complimented me for selecting and are still in excellent shape.

[rugbysecondrow]

Louis, how many square feet is your home?

[Louis]

Louis, how many square feet is your home?

About 2300 ft^2 (not counting the finished basement, but including the 2-car garage)

[velotel]

Went for the major improvements in the house insulation. All the old windows replaced with high efficiency insulating glass. I'd also drastically modified the house with walls of glass for heating when the sun is here. At night they're covered with insulating curtains which just happen to come from Montana. Nothing like them available in Europe that I've ever been able to find. Knew about them because my houses in Crested Butte, Colorado that I designed and built were passive solar heated with walls of glass on the south side and the curtains. Without the curtains the heat gain during the day was lost during the night. Winters can be cold there, as in as low as -40F.

Here the roof was re-insulated with a layer of this new, or relatively new, type of insulation that consists of something like 11 different layers of materials. It's thin but amazingly efficient. I've noticed a good difference from that.

We also changed the source of the heating. A guy from Quebec who spends at least half the year in France designs and builds these amazing mass stoves. There's 4 metric tons of brick in the stove. The heat/smoke from the fire goes up then down then across and up and across and up again and finally into the chimney to exit. Something like 8 meters of travel before it gets to the chimney. Part of the travel is the bench that I love to sit on and read before going to bed. Except when it's too hot. I build a fire once a day, a fierce fire that burns so hot temperatures inside the firebox can reach as high as 1300C. When the fire is burned out in maybe 3 hours, I close the damper that's up near the chimney exit on the roof. If I really loaded the firebox 24 hours later the mass of the stove is still too hot to leave the hand on for long. When it's not very cold, I only build a fire every couple of days and the mass is still mildly hot when I light the new fire. There's also a simple system to heat the house's hot water. The pipes going into the storage tank get too hot to touch. There's also an oven that a large percentage of the cooking gets done in. Uncontrollable temperature of course so it's just a question of waiting until it's cooled a bit. The temperature can get towards 500C!

With all that the house is wonderfully comfortable. Plus we got lots of tax deductions from the government on all the work, the windows, the re-insulation, and the mass stove. If I was building a new house, I'd design it around a south facing wall of glass with a mass stove by Gabriel in the center of the house and the north side buried in the ground. And way smaller than this house.

[Louis]

If I really loaded the firebox

Do you have enough trees to be self-sufficient in wood, or do you have to buy some?

When I added a heating stove to my living room I had to choose between wood and gas and went with gas because they are easier to control thermostatically and you don't have to deal with chopping and splitting. (Although I imagine that would be a pretty good total-body workout.) Some of my neighbors heat with wood and have gone all in, with engine powered hydraulic splitters.

[thinpin]

Our house here in Melbourne was an efficiency nightmare. Beautiful but woefully draughty hardwood windows. No roof insulation to talk about and a glass "sunroom" facing north (think south for you guys) tacked onto the end. This was a particular hell hole. A furnace in summer and cold in winter, it communicated its moods to the rest of the house through and under an old door. Some genius had put an aircon unit in it :rolleyes:
We extended the house, demolishing the sunroom and installed double glazed windows all around the new building. Doubled the insulation standard required by law in the walls and rerto-insulated the whole roof. Again way above Australian requirements. All to the constant ridicule and pi$$taking of the builder. We also put a wood-fired stove in the living room. I have a friend, an arborist, who delivers all the wood I need each year. Free.
Putting a boiler on this stove to feed into the house's new hydronic heating was just a one way ticket to a home for the bewildered. Easy everywhere else in the world. Its always a bad sign when tradesmen suck air sharply in through their teeth. It means money. They sucked long and hard at this one.

Insulation was key to comfort in summer and winter. Aircon gets used briefly on 95+ days. Gas heating is rarely used and I enjoy the warmth and ambiance of the wood fire in winter.
I admire your tenacity Louis. I would struggle with 60. :beer:

[reforester]

A couple of nice pit bulls around you generate plenty of heat.

[nannon]

NICE! I keep it around 62. It dose save tons of money. More for bike parts:)

[Karin Kirk]

Velotel, what is the name of those insulated curtains?
I have been looking for that. We have some insulated curtains over our glass patio door but they are not all that insulated and they do not look that great. They are from Massachusetts. Since I could not find anything better I ordered some heavyweight wool fabric from a place that sells reclaimed fabrics. The fabric is beautiful, but I have not made the curtains yet.

We use a pellet stove in Dave's shop. I am not a big fan of wood stoves but I love the pellet stove. Burns so clean, no chopping, no fuss. If we were starting from scratch we'd consider that for the primary heat in the house.

While we are on the topic of energy efficiency, does anyone know of good shades that can be used with skylights? We just added skylights to our office, which will help a lot with cooling, but we'd like to be able to put shades on them too.

[velotel]

Do you have enough trees to be self-sufficient in wood, or do you have to buy some?

I buy it but might buy some forested land just for the trees.

[velotel]

Velotel, what is the name of those insulated curtains?
The woman's name is Jo Anne Brekjern, site is http://cozycurtains.com The curtains work really well and the pricing is good. If you're equipped to sew and have the skills, you can buy all the required materials here http://www.warmcompany.com/wwpage.html That's where Jo Anne buys the materials. Good stuff and nice people, at least over the phone. You could easily make some curtains for the skylights that would insulate during the summer also.

We use a pellet stove in Dave's shop. I am not a big fan of wood stoves but I love the pellet stove. Burns so clean, no chopping, no fuss. If we were starting from scratch we'd consider that for the primary heat in the house.
We had a pellet stove, a Harmon, good stove, heats well. Sold it and replaced it with the mass stove. Not in the same price league but also not in the same league for heating and efficiency. Thing with the mass stove is it continues to heat for a couple of days after the fire. Pellet stoves and wood burning stoves only heat when they're working. The mass stove is like having a blast furnace in the house with the heat absorbed by the mass and then radiated back into the house. It's an impressive show. Something like that would be awesome for heating the shop. On the other hand not all mass stoves are the same; Gabriel's is something pretty special from what I've seen and learned.

[Chance]

68 during day and 64 at night feels cold enough to me on gas heat. Electric heat is so inefficient by comparison that you'd have to almost not run it at all to equal natural gas.

[mike p]

Velotel, your mass stove sounds very much like a Russian fireplace in theory anyway. Your familiar with this? How is one different than the other?

Thanks
Mike

[velotel]

Velotel, your mass stove sounds very much like a Russian fireplace in theory anyway. Your familiar with this? How is one different than the other?

Thanks
Mike
Basically the same concept, or at least concerning a russian stove I read about years and years ago, like maybe 30+ years ago. I think somewhere I still have plans for that stove. The big difference from the mass stove I have is that the russian stove I read about burned twigs and small wood like that, which was amazingly practical as small wood is so easy to gather. No chain saw required.

Mass stoves in lots of variations are thousands of years old. Some 5000 years ago kings or whatever they were called at the time in India heated their homes with a huge fire room or furnace room underneath the house or maybe castle would be more correct phrasing. The exhaust heat passed up through the walls, heating them and in turn heating the castle. They also had systems to run water through the walls in the summer for cooling. The romans also had similar heating systems; maybe patterned off the indian design I suppose given how much world exchange there was even then.

Mass stoves have been built in the scandinavian countries for hundreds of years. As I recall a finnish or swedish king ordered/asked his architect to improve the efficiency of heating stoves. The result was a mass stove which is much what is built today though obviously with lots of evolutions and improvements. Nevertheless the concept is the same just as with the russian stove, the indian heating system, the roman heating systems, and the mass stoves that have been built in the Alsace-Lorraine region for a couple hundred of years.

Gabriel has simply designed a stove based on all those principles that is in my limited experience extremely efficient. I still believe that russian stove for which I might still have the design after 30 some years was a remarkable idea because of its use of easily gathered wood, even straw could be burned in it with excellent results. But without solid insulation, the best heating system in the world is just pissing in the wind.

[rugbysecondrow]

I understand the sentiment of keeping a cold house, cold showers, no ac etc. I have engineering friends who often talk themselves into many of these notions. They are single too which helps facilitate the neurosis. I hesitate to think of it as a green issue though because the driver, the incentive is cost savings and not environmental. Why not be green in decision making? why not get a smaller house instead of having a 60 degree, 2400+ sf house? Why not live closer to work rather than drive 30 minutes each way with no ac? I know people who feel very principled and uppity about their Prius, but they drive three times further than I do for work, actually using more gas. I normally just listen and nod because they don't care what I think anyway, sort of like what I should have done here.

I might be wrong and Louis might be saving the world one cold shower at a time.

[Climb01742]

isn't every step, of any size, a step in the right direction?

[rugbysecondrow]

isn't every step, of any size, a step in the right direction?

Sure, but if I drive my hummer, solo, with no AC, should I be lauded? Sure it is better than otherwise, but let's not bruise our hands clapping.

[Louis]

Why not live closer to work rather than drive 30 minutes each way with no ac?

The easy answer to this one is that the cycling out here is way, way better than closer in to work, perhaps some of the best in the St Louis area, and that drove most of my location selection. A trade off I decided to make because cycling is important to me.

I could easily increase the winter temp in the house. The resulting increase in cost would be pretty small. I could double my heating and cooling costs and still be far, far below what I spend on bikes.

I know I personally won't benefit from reducing my carbon footprint. I know it would be more fun to drive an Impreza WRX, instead of the plain-vanilla version I'm considering, but for me that just doesn't seem right, and I feel I owe it to both the environment and future generations (I don't have any kids myself) to keep some degree of control on my desires. Maybe growing up in the poorest country in the western hemisphere (Haiti) has something to do with it.

I could do more, I could do less. The bottom line is that life's a series of compromises, and you choose what works for your priorities. That doesn't mean that your or my priorities are the right ones, but I guess that's life.

[Ahneida Ride]

I know of a guy who heats his 3500 sq. ft house

Mostly with a wood stove in his fireplace...

Only uses the gas furnace when it gets Really cold.

His house is toasty !

[Louis]

Sure, but if I drive my hummer, solo, with no AC, should I be lauded? Sure it is better than otherwise, but let's not bruise our hands clapping.

You have my permission to drive your Hummer with the A/C set anywhere you like. ;)

[Smiley]

01/05/2012
Monthly Energy Production
Report for Smiley Residence

Enphase Energy maximizes your solar energy production and keeps you informed about your system. Your monthly energy report shows how your system performed and how much you contributed to offsetting the global carbon footprint.

Energy Production and Peak Power for
December 2011

Week Peak Power Energy Produced
12/01/2011 - 12/07/2011 3.10 kW 62.6 kWh
12/08/2011 - 12/14/2011 2.99 kW 81.0 kWh
12/15/2011 - 12/21/2011 2.95 kW 46.9 kWh
12/22/2011 - 12/28/2011 3.28 kW 62.8 kWh
12/29/2011 - 12/31/2011 3.23 kW 26.5 kWh
December 2011's Total: 280 kWh
Previous Month's Total: 347 kWh
Year to Date: 1.48 MWh
For more details on these production results, please visit your Enphase® system.

PLUS 149 KWH produced in 14 days so far in January 2012

[Kevan]

THIS is why I hate winter...having to survive the chills, the chattering teeth, the goosebumps. Meanwhile my wife is relishing this time. She loves it. Hmm...divorce due to climatic differences. She wants to move to Vermont. Maryland is more my climatic desire.

Oh, how things have changed over the many years. I used to run around in shirt sleeves while collegeing (new word) in NH. I wasn't very smart back then.

[NHAero]

Hey there, Smiley, here's our last 6 months of 2011 with solar production and total consumption. Once the heat pump comes on, we go from exporters to importers, but we're on track for net export for a year, since we're working off a net export credit.

[Louis]

It's unfortunate that your biggest demand is when you have the least production. But perhaps it all works out in the long run - do they "pay" you the same $ for each kwh produced or does it vary with time of day and year?

[NHAero]

Yes, in a heating-dominated climate, the sun ain't shinin' when you need it most. That's an advantage that solar electric has over solar thermal - excess can be exported in sunny times to offset night or cloudy conditions. And in most states today, net metering laws mean that the value of the exported kWh is the same as the cost of the imported one (minus a few small charges they get paid for that they don't give back...)

I expect we'll have a couple of months of importing and working down against the credit, then in March or April start building the credit up again. Some day when I'm a geezer I will use the excess for an electric assist bike! Oh, and you can assign excess to another account as long as your name is on it. My sister is putting in a large system this spring on one house that she'll be able to apply the credits to both houses she owns.

It's unfortunate that your biggest demand is when you have the least production. But perhaps it all works out in the long run - do they "pay" you the same $ for each kwh produced or does it vary with time of day and year?