Which requires more labor: Carbon Build or Ti

[laupsi]

Just out of curosity, does anyone know which takes more labor to produce?

A custom carbon fiber frame/fork
A custom Ti frame/fork

[ultraman6970]

What do you think it takes more time...

To just weld Ti tubing or lay carbon sheet by sheet while joining the tubing?

ps: assuming the carbon tubes are already made

[laupsi]

well I'm not sure how much to consider complete. in the process of building a frame/fork from a custom builder which would reqire more labor? I suppose we should assume the custom builder makes the lugs, lays up the carbon, does all the welding.

[Kontact]

There's no good answer.

A round tubed, straight guage ti frame with pre-made dropouts and other small parts could go pretty fast with single pass welds.

Not as fast as mitering as assembling a lugged carbon frame, though. I would imagine a Meivici or Calfee could get the lugs bored/assembled reasonably quickly.

But then you have all the hand layup work of a Crumpton and the meticiulous vacuum bagging.

Or the extensive machining of in-house dropouts and manipulated tubing like a Legend or Lynskey.

[AngryScientist]

There's no good answer.

A round tubed, straight guage ti frame with pre-made dropouts and other small parts could go pretty fast with single pass welds.

Not as fast as mitering as assembling a lugged carbon frame, though. I would imagine a Meivici or Calfee could get the lugs bored/assembled reasonably quickly.

But then you have all the hand layup work of a Crumpton and the meticiulous vacuum bagging.

Or the extensive machining of in-house dropouts and manipulated tubing like a Legend or Lynskey.

i agree with this. you cant make a generalization on material alone.

[Charles M]

I agree that you cant make a material generalization too...


Except that Kontact makes some generalizations about lugged carbon while doing so... The fact that the Meivici assembly might go quickly leaves out the fact that the parts take X time and Y expense to make...


Neither Carbon Tubes nor ti tubes make themselves. The costs and time are different for the materials... (Then some folks still do more than just mitre)

Lugs dont make themselves either (in carbon or Steel). And machining the lugs with the right detail (for the companies that first make a pre formed carbon lug and then core it at the needed angle) is very simply not simple...


Different manufacturers handle the carbon "lug" process in different ways. Some folks make the lug with holes at the proper angle without the need for cutting through the carbon. Others form the lug around the bonded joint and make the lug variable thickness and coverage...

There's a lot of hand work for Nick and there's a lot of hand work for the different kinds of lug tech too...



The time comes from different places and there's a need for craftsmanship for both when making higher end products...

[Ahneida Ride]

I dunno ...

But I can tell ya, I've seen Kelly put some serious sweat in building
a Ti frame.

[Kontact]

I agree that you cant make a material generalization too...


Except that Kontact makes some generalizations about lugged carbon while doing so... The fact that the Meivici assembly might go quickly leaves out the fact that the parts take X time and Y expense to make...


Neither Carbon Tubes nor ti tubes make themselves. The costs and time are different for the materials... (Then some folks still do more than just mitre)

Lugs dont make themselves either (in carbon or Steel). And machining the lugs with the right detail (for the companies that first make a pre formed carbon lug and then core it at the needed angle) is very simply not simple...


Different manufacturers handle the carbon "lug" process in different ways. Some folks make the lug with holes at the proper angle without the need for cutting through the carbon. Others form the lug around the bonded joint and make the lug variable thickness and coverage...

There's a lot of hand work for Nick and there's a lot of hand work for the different kinds of lug tech too...



The time comes from different places and there's a need for craftsmanship for both when making higher end products...
I wasn't failing to give credit. I do mention that making dropouts and other fittings in house take time - I was just using the Meivici as an example of slip lug construction.


If you want to count Paragon Machine's time to machine BB shells, brake bridges and seat tube tops, the number jumps up. Calfee makes at least some of their tubing. Several companies butt their own Ti tubes, others buy Easton or Feather.


If you really want to break things down to the gnat's bottom, start with a titanium mine and the carbon fiber oven and go from there - that's what Giant apparently does.

But if we are talking about "how long will my custom bike take to assemble from inventory tubes and parts", the time is easier to define, and probably more what the OP was getting at.

[Bob Ross]

does anyone know which takes more labor to produce?

Not meaning to be coy, but it seriously depends on how you define "labor"

...and "more"



Does a BMC Impec take "more labor" or "less labor" than a handbuilt frame?

[laupsi]

thanks for all the good info.

I started this thread due to a conversation w/a buddy of mine regarding all the expensive carbon frames/bikes out there. his reasoning for the higher prices, $8k and higher, was that it took so much longer to make the carbon frames, (Trek, Specialized, Look, Colgano, Felt, Scott, etc...)

I am convinced it's not about economics per se but more because of where the consumer market currently resides; new carbon frame costs big bucks so they must be lighter, stronger, better, etc..., so yes I will pay more.

I know Ti material is more costly at its core than carbon and I was curious if making a Ti bike was that much less costly labor wise to explain away the cost difference. granted some Ti frames are pretty pricey but it seems the off the shelf Ti frames can be had much cheaper than their carbon counter parts.

[fourflys]

I am convinced it's not about economics per say but more because of where the consumer market currently resides; new carbon frame costs big bucks so they must be lighter, stronger, better, etc..., so yes I will pay more.


I can't see those carbon bikes taking longer than a welded bike... otherwise, the big companies wouldn't be doing them as they would lose too much money... pretty sure Giant/Fuji has the molding process down to a pretty quick job at this point.... machine welded Ti might be just behind that though I would think... (assuming there is such a thing as machine welded Ti for the production bikes)

[laupsi]

I can't see those carbon bikes taking longer than a welded bike... otherwise, the big companies wouldn't be doing them as they would lose too much money... pretty sure Giant/Fuji has the molding process down to a pretty quick job at this point.... machine welded Ti might be just behind that though I would think... (assuming there is such a thing as machine welded Ti for the production bikes)

yea but I see many more high dollar carbon frames than I do high dollar Ti frames. for the sake of argument, couldn't the high costs be covered by charging higher prices? (assuming that there is more labor for carbon builds)

[fourflys]

yea but I see many more high dollar carbon frames than I do high dollar Ti frames. for the sake of argument, couldn't the high costs be covered by charging higher prices? (assuming that there is more labor for carbon builds)


the reason you see more high dollar carbon is because of demand IMHO... Ti frames, high dollar of not, just aren't in demand... Carbon is the current "gotta have it" material and because of that the manufactures can justify charging more for it... if just making production carbon frames were that expensive, you wouldn't see $300 Chinarellos on Ebay... now, I realize the big companies have put some money in R&D that these knock-offs don't do, but I don't think that is what we are discussing here...

FYI- my comments on carbon only have to do with production frames and not custom ones like Crumpton, Calfee or Parlee...

[rice rocket]

thanks for all the good info.

I started this thread due to a conversation w/a buddy of mine regarding all the expensive carbon frames/bikes out there. his reasoning for the higher prices, $8k and higher, was that it took so much longer to make the carbon frames, (Trek, Specialized, Look, Colgano, Felt, Scott, etc...)

I am convinced it's not about economics per se but more because of where the consumer market currently resides; new carbon frame costs big bucks so they must be lighter, stronger, better, etc..., so yes I will pay more.


There's also "potentially" a lot more R&D into carbon because you can create just about anything with some fabric and a binder matrix. That isn't always the case though. In a Ti bike (and somewhat in a tube/lug constructed bike), your possibilities are limited to what tubing you have access to.

That said, the price gap you see to at the "top" of the carbon bike price list is because it's chic, and there are pro race teams to support.

[rePhil]

Out of curiosity,is Kelly doing the welding on his Ti frames?

I dunno ...

But I can tell ya, I've seen Kelly put some serious sweat in building
a Ti frame.

[EDS]

the reason you see more high dollar carbon is because of demand IMHO... Ti frames, high dollar of not, just aren't in demand... Carbon is the current "gotta have it" material and because of that the manufactures can justify charging more for it... if just making production carbon frames were that expensive, you wouldn't see $300 Chinarellos on Ebay... now, I realize the big companies have put some money in R&D that these knock-offs don't do, but I don't think that is what we are discussing here...

FYI- my comments on carbon only have to do with production frames and not custom ones like Crumpton, Calfee or Parlee...

Are carbon frames more expensive then ti? On a non-custom basis, you can get a carbon Giant TCR Carbon frame/fork for around a grand. Next level up, Giant TCR Advanced fame/fork is around $1700. Can you get a production ti frame for that much? Litespeed Xicon is what, around $1700, entry Lynskey too? Those are both domestic, so maybe that accounts for the price point, but I am not sure what other options there are in low cost titanium.

[fourflys]

Are carbon frames more expensive then ti? On a non-custom basis, you can get a carbon Giant TCR Carbon frame/fork for around a grand. Next level up, Giant TCR Advanced fame/fork is around $1700. Can you get a production ti frame for that much? Litespeed Xicon is what, around $1700, entry Lynskey too? Those are both domestic, so maybe that accounts for the price point, but I am not sure what other options there are in low cost titanium.

no idea on quality, but http://www.habcycles.com/

I had a Litespeed Xicon when they first came out... it was welded here in the US, but the tubes were sourced outside the US (I heard China, but never got a confirmation)... BTW- didn't really like the bike... it did have fairly nice welds I though though...

[oldpotatoe]

Are carbon frames more expensive then ti? On a non-custom basis, you can get a carbon Giant TCR Carbon frame/fork for around a grand. Next level up, Giant TCR Advanced fame/fork is around $1700. Can you get a production ti frame for that much? Litespeed Xicon is what, around $1700, entry Lynskey too? Those are both domestic, so maybe that accounts for the price point, but I am not sure what other options there are in low cost titanium.

Apples and apples, since Giants are made in Asia.

http://www.habcycles.com/road.html

[EDS]

no idea on quality, but http://www.habcycles.com/

I had a Litespeed Xicon when they first came out... it was welded here in the US, but the tubes were sourced outside the US (I heard China, but never got a confirmation)... BTW- didn't really like the bike... it did have fairly nice welds I though though...

Great prices! Though you do need to factor a fork into the costs.

[laupsi]

Are carbon frames more expensive then ti? On a non-custom basis, you can get a carbon Giant TCR Carbon frame/fork for around a grand. Next level up, Giant TCR Advanced fame/fork is around $1700. Can you get a production ti frame for that much? Litespeed Xicon is what, around $1700, entry Lynskey too? Those are both domestic, so maybe that accounts for the price point, but I am not sure what other options there are in low cost titanium.

yes I am getting the feedback confirming my limited logic; Ti frames are probably more costly, considering the material used, w/little to no more labor required, for mass production frames, than carbon frames and carbon frames at the high end are priced so mainly due to demand.

[EDS]

Apples and apples, since Giants are made in Asia.

http://www.habcycles.com/road.html

No doubt but it is not a copy cat company as they are vertically integrated and have a very extensive history with carbon fiber.

[fourflys]

No doubt but it is not a copy cat company as they are vertically integrated and have a very extensive history with carbon fiber.

Giant, I believe, is the largest manufacturer of carbon bikes in the world as they make bikes for LOT of others... Fuji is #2 I think...

[Kontact]

I think you guys are muddling things.

Bicycle frames are priced mainly by demand. A Trek Madone 6.9 frame probably cost less than $100 to build, including R&D and tooling over the whole run. You can buy a molded carbon frameset for anywhere from $300 to $9000, and both will be light and pleasant enough to ride.

However, in the custom world it is a little easier to see the connection between price and costs, which is why custom bikes aren't orders of magnitude different in price. US Ti frames with custom geometry run between $2500 and $4500. Custom carbon is a little bit more than that. The materials for both (tubes, fittings, epoxy, argon, etc.) end up costing very similarly for the good stuff. What you are paying for in large part is a reasonable wage for an expert builder to do their stuff. And depending on how much stuff they do to build their bikes, the costs will come out accordingly.

Certain processes are much more expensive than others, though. The Meivici lugs are not easy to make OR machine. The Ti dropouts Parlee uses are very expensive to machine. That figures into all of this, too.

It is a big mistake to look at a couple different bikes and draw conclusions about how much it cost to make them. Sure, Hab has Chinese frames designed by who knows and made of some Chinese grade Ti tubes for $900. And the welds might hold up fine, but what expertise went into selecting tube diameters and such? When you buy a Serotta Ti Classic, much more went into that seemingly similar frame both in terms of materials and bike design expertise. And that's worth paying for.

Custom builders, whatever their materials, lavish a lot of brain power and attention to their products. Some bikes are easier to build than others, but none of them can be assembled by unskilled labor or designed by copying a geometry chart.

[laupsi]

Custom builders, whatever their materials, lavish a lot of brain power and attention to their products. Some bikes are easier to build than others, but none of them can be assembled by unskilled labor or designed by copying a geometry chart.

okay but the original question was geared towards the custom market, it was aimed at the riddle of off the shelf bikes being priced at the very high end.