OT: Made in America

[Kirk Pacenti]

Not bike / manufacturing specific, but lots of interesting points made here.

http://youtu.be/cC0JPs-rcF0

[cat6]

Thanks for sharing.

[rice rocket]

Mike Rowe is awesome.

[Serotta_Carbon]

Kirk,

Thanks for the link. He may as well been describing my grandfather and the mentorship and inspiration he provided me which has been the foundation of my career and the reason I know I'll never go hungry.

Not everyone is as lucky as I to have a person like that in their life to teach them hands on skills so I hope Mike Rowe's words are taken to heart and we can get some of that back into the education system.

BTW...I had some damn fine shop teachers as well back in the '70....Let's get them and their colleagues back to work.

In all fairness though I believe it's going to take more than just education to get things back on track in this country but it's a good start.....FWIW

[Steve in SLO]

His sentiments and beliefs are spot-on, IMHO.
There has not been, nor will there be in the forseeable future, a better PR man for his initiatives. I wish him luck for all our sakes. In the meantime, I will be teaching both my son and daugher every skill I can.

[mike p]

I'm a millwright employed in a large automotive parts factory. Our company pays top dollar in our area. When they advertise for millwrights, electricians, machinist, or any other skilled trades they often get no one! Even when they advertise for the apprenticeship program they get very few takers. I'd say the average trades person in our plant is fifty. Another ten to twenty years there won't be anyone to pass on down the trades!

Mike

[bgcycles]

Thanks for the link.
Not everyone is as lucky as I to have a person like that in their life to teach them hands on skills so I hope Mike Rowe's words are taken to heart and we can get some of that back into the education system.

In all fairness though I believe it's going to take more than just education to get things back on track in this country but it's a good start.....FWIW


I too would like to thank Kirk for posting that video.
It is troubling to imagine a country such as ours without manufacturing. I too was surprised when I posted that I was looking for an experienced welder that there were no calls despite the high unemployment numbers.

I like, Mike Lopez, have spent my entire adult life making stuff. That is all I wanted to do. Make good stuff and improve on products.

Call me "Old Fashioned" but, I remember when if you wanted a Table - you went to a Guy who made Tables. You did not go to Ikea.

Regards,
Bruce Gordon
www.bgcycles.com
www.sopwamtos.com

[Kontact]

I don't know what it is like now or for other people, but shop class was rarely for the "smart" kids in our high school. There was a surprisingly clear line between traditional or honors students and heavy metal cigarette smoking vocational arts students. I'm not being pejorative - just trying to point out that elective selection fell on very clear "class" lines. I was a somewhat unusual student because I was an honors/athlete type, but took drafting.

Not a single one of my friends who became engineers expressed any interest in taking classes where you actually got to build things. And I'm sure that suited the shop students, shop teachers and the students who didn't take those classes.

Since college, I have learned to weld, work with composites, heat treat, etc. I would kill to get the kind of machine shop training they were giving away in my high school.


I have to wonder if part of serious screw up in America has to do with the very curious selection process for taking different high school courses. The students that apply themselves most and end up in the big decision making jobs in US industry are the people that have never learned to make things themselves. And people with inventive creativity have little ability to produce their own prototypes. All because the freaks and geeks don't like to mix.

[Louis]

A college Engineering school machine shop.

I don't think too many of the folks going through here end up with careers in the shop, but they do get to build a Stirling engine, learn about thermodynamics and how to use a lathe, milling machine, etc. Can't hurt.

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2091/2387181537_b1c2b4aeb6.jpg

http://kathleenjonesv.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/cimg1403.jpg

[Kontact]

A college Engineering school machine shop.

I don't think too many of the folks going through here end up with careers in the shop, but they do get to build a Stirling engine, learn about thermodynamics and how to use a lathe, milling machine, etc. Can't hurt.

And I think we'd have more US engineering students if college bound kids enjoyed building things in high school.

[cat6]

I first just said thanks for sharing, but late night after sending to some folks I'd like to elaborate.

My great grandfather landed in NJ fresh from Ellis Island and eventually built his entire house with his own hands, windows, doors....everything. I'd sit in this home as a teenager and think "big whoop" (that's what kids said at the time). He wasn't there to tell me about it all, by my grandmother was. She would go "assist him", which according to her was stand around asking questions late night while he was figuring out how to accomplish his tasks. Imagine that without YouTube.

My parents grew their veggies, raised their own animals and mostly built their own buildings. I was withdrawn, focused on success without physical labor and ended up in tech.

I'm handy, and happy with the outcome, but if I knew then what I know now I'd have been studying my parents and grandparents non-stop as if my life depended on it...it would have been the best education money couldn't pay for.

[54ny77]

great video. one of the most interesting comments to me in there was when he said we've gone from a nation that made things to a nation focused on how to pay for things. couldn't be more true.

[soulspinner]

Wow. Didnt realize the shortage of tradesman like welders......................thanks for the enlightening video.

[victoryfactory]

Thanks for posting.
The pendulum has obviously swung in the white collar direction for
too long. It's time to re-balance and revamp the wrongheaded approach to
education. The idea that "smart" kids go to college and "dumb" kids go to trade
school is a national disgrace.

I remember having to fight in high school to take mechanical drawing because
it wasn't available to kids on the "college" program. (1960's)
they wanted me to take Latin! Ha! Quis a iocus!

VF

[Bob Loblaw]

I've observed that in Europe (I'm remembering specifically Germany but it's the same in other countries I have visited), the guys that build, fix, and clean up all the things people rely on every day hold a higher position socially than they seem to in the US.

BL

[laupsi]

Wow. Didnt realize the shortage of tradesman like welders......................thanks for the enlightening video.

and hence the reason this is so important!

I am the president of a mid sized sheet metal company. we do commercial and industrial HVAC. over the last 23 years I have been working at this business and have seen first hand the complete collapse of the skilled trade portion of our labor market. while many americans complain of high unemployment and illegals coming to america to take away "our jobs", there is little out there to hire. our base entry wage w/no skills starts at $12.00/hr, many skilled foremen have very good benefits; health care, retirement through 401k plans and profit sharing/ESOP and transportation expenses and make above $50k and some of them w/OT earn near or above a six figure salary. yea, no joke...

our problem is that as a company we cannot grow. the labor market is what I would term "fixed" and until this problem is addressed many small to mid sized companies like mine will suffer and therefore so will America.

just my $.02

[Chance]

And I think we'd have more US engineering students if college bound kids enjoyed building things in high school.
You make that sound like it would be a good thing. But exactly what would we do with a lot more engineers when our (USA) economy is shifting away from things that require their services?

[oldpotatoe]

I've observed that in Europe (I'm remembering specifically Germany but it's the same in other countries I have visited), the guys that build, fix, and clean up all the things people rely on every day hold a higher position socially than they seem to in the US.

BL

And I believe that after HS, particularly in the UK, everybody has the choice of a trade focused college or academic focused and there isn't the stigma attached to those going the trades route, like it is in the US.

Too bad, being skilled and also skilled with one's hands is a lost art in many ways.

[Kontact]

You make that sound like it would be a good thing. But exactly what would we do with a lot more engineers when our (USA) economy is shifting away from things that require their services?
Start companies that make things, instead of starting companies that import things or offer services.

Whether building everything overseas is a trend or not, it is not viable in the long term. You can't have an economy where everyone is in a service industry. You have to have a natural resource or product you make not have a lethal trade imbalance. Doctors, lawyers, retail, stock brokers don't create wealth, they just move it around.

[laupsi]

Start companies that make things, instead of starting companies that import things or offer services.

Whether building everything overseas is a trend or not, it is not viable in the long term. You can't have an economy where everyone is in a service industry. You have to have a natural resource or product you make not have a lethal trade imbalance. Doctors, lawyers, retail, stock brokers don't create wealth, they just move it around.

okay this sounds good but you're missing the point. we have work for tradesmen/tradeswomen, we simply don't have enough of them... starting companies to produce is great, how will you operate them? this is not a "build it and they will come" problem; it is a total lack of experienced and talented blue collar workers in this country that is the problem.

[Kontact]

okay this sounds good but you're missing the point. we have work for tradesmen/tradeswomen, we simply don't have enough of them... starting companies to produce is great, how will you operate them? this is not a "build it and they will come" problem; it is a total lack of experienced and talented blue collar workers in this country that is the problem.
I'm not missing the point, I'm speaking about a cultural problem that may have led to this point - if it is socially discouraged for a wide range of students to take shop, your pool of potential machinists and engineers shrinks - both of which impact the number and size of companies that can make stuff.

Having a large work force interested in pursuing certain jobs is one facet of competition. I doubt car making has seemed glamorous in the US since the DeLorean.

[laupsi]

agreed. :)

I think possibly more distrupting adding to this dilemma is the idea that real money can be had by choosing a blue collar career.

[Chance]

I'm not missing the point, I'm speaking about a cultural problem that may have led to this point - if it is socially discouraged for a wide range of students to take shop, your pool of potential machinists and engineers shrinks - both of which impact the number and size of companies that can make stuff.

Having a large work force interested in pursuing certain jobs is one facet of competition. I doubt car making has seemed glamorous in the US since the DeLorean.
The DeLorean wasn't made in the US.

[Chance]

Start companies that make things, instead of starting companies that import things or offer services.

Whether building everything overseas is a trend or not, it is not viable in the long term. You can't have an economy where everyone is in a service industry. You have to have a natural resource or product you make not have a lethal trade imbalance. Doctors, lawyers, retail, stock brokers don't create wealth, they just move it around.
My point was that lack of engineers didn't cause the shift in our economy that moved us away from needing engineers.

If we educate many more engineers we'll just have that many more unemployed or under-employed unless we first change our economy structurally.

For now maybe we need quality over quantity until the ball gets rolling again.

[Kontact]

My point was that lack of engineers didn't cause the shift in our economy that moved us away from needing engineers.

If we educate many more engineers we'll just have that many more unemployed or under-employed unless we first change our economy structurally.

For now maybe we need quality over quantity until the ball gets rolling again.
I think we are arguing chicken and egg. If you want to shift back, you have to make building things attractive to the people who have the knack, and have a society that values things being made.

Germany's laws make it so large companies must have workers on their boards - which is widely credited for the reason they still make stuff there. The shift in the US was as much the fault of factory owner decisions to go overseas as consumer decisions. For America to get back on track a lot of people must both be interested in and skilled enough to make things again.

We certainly don't need more IT people, real estate agents or lawyers.

[Chance]

I think we are arguing chicken and egg. If you want to shift back, you have to make building things attractive to the people who have the knack, and have a society that values things being made.

Germany's laws make it so large companies must have workers on their boards - which is widely credited for the reason they still make stuff there. The shift in the US was as much the fault of factory owner decisions to go overseas as consumer decisions. For America to get back on track a lot of people must both be interested in and skilled enough to make things again.

We certainly don't need more IT people, real estate agents or lawyers.
Yes we are. And my point is that the demand has to come first (however that's done). Your point seems to be that we need skilled workers and engineers first and that business will follow. On this we disagree completely.

Manufacturing went overseas because it was much cheaper and American buyers were more interested in paying less for items. Consumers demanded lower prices and it forced companies to go overseas in order to compete. That in turn left many skilled workers and engineers without jobs. Educating more people won't reverse the process unless business is changed structurally first.

Look at the other thread about the problems Serotta is facing. It's not because of lack of skilled workers, is it? It's all about a new market where similar bikes can be made in China or Taiwan at a fraction of the cost. They may not be nearly as good but they undermine pricing nonetheless and put companies like Serotta in a vice.

[54ny77]

don't forget a tax and regulatory structure so heavy handed and oppressive (let alone insane) at the federal, state and even local level that starting, let alone running, a business can be an exercise in madness.

i deal with regulatory issues so ridiculous that you could have different variants at the state and local level, one of which conflicts with the other. but there sure is a healthy & dedicated bureaucracy staffed at both levels to ensure the answer is "yes," "no," or "maybe."

it's generally very difficult to establish & run a business under those constraints....

The shift in the US was as much the fault of factory owner decisions to go overseas as consumer decisions. For America to get back on track a lot of people must both be interested in and skilled enough to make things again.

We certainly don't need more IT people, real estate agents or lawyers.

[Kontact]

Yes we are. And my point is that the demand has to come first (however that's done). Your point seems to be that we need skilled workers and engineers first and that business will follow. On this we disagree completely.

Manufacturing went overseas because it was much cheaper and American buyers were more interested in paying less for items. Consumers demanded lower prices and it forced companies to go overseas in order to compete. That in turn left many skilled workers and engineers without jobs. Educating more people won't reverse the process unless business is changed structurally first.

Look at the other thread about the problems Serotta is facing. It's not because of lack of skilled workers, is it? It's all about a new market where similar bikes can be made in China or Taiwan at a fraction of the cost. They may not be nearly as good but they undermine pricing nonetheless and put companies like Serotta in a vice.
Seven is doing fine in exactly the same business environment.

A depressed economy can be the perfect opportunity for engineers and tradesman to start competing both at home and abroad because of lower wage expectations. You simply can't start to compete without having skilled labor. A company starts with talent and ideas, not demand. Companies create demand with good products.

America doesn't need to reinvent the steel mill business. It needs skilled people to create new industries. If every new idea is serviced by a foreign factory, the US gets poorer.

I don't see how you can start to do anything without the right people.


And US companies weren't "forced" to go overseas. As with my example from Germany, it was a choice US companies made because of an economic system that favors trade vs. production and business owners that don't care who staffs their factories. That problem can be corrected by law, innovation, depressed economics or social change. But someone has to initiate change, and education addresses all four of those.

[laupsi]

+++++++1

[Monthly Payment]

There was a NPR reporter who did a 'future of American manufacturing' type story. I caught it on the Planet Money podcast. Thought some of you might like reading/ hearing it.

Article: http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2012/01/making-it-in-america/8844/1/

Podcast: http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2012/01/10/144978487/the-tuesday-podcast-the-past-and-future-of-american-manufacturing

Kirk - I enjoyed watching the video. Thanks for posting it.

[gomango]

Yes, thanks for the reminder on this topic.

The video of Mike Rowe makes a compelling case for attention to this topic and America's situation known as the "skills gap."

Further reading is available though.

Last summer I read a life changer for me, "Shop Class as Soulcraft" by Matthew Crawford.

http://www.matthewbcrawford.com/Shop.jpg

A real game and life changer for me, no doubt. His book directly addresses this topic and throws in a little cheeky existentialism for good measure.

Here's a link to Matthew Crawford's site.

http://www.matthewbcrawford.com/

[William]

Thanks for posting the link to Mike Rowe's speech. It rings very true to me and reminds me of my Grandfather as well.

In High School I was one of those people that seemed to transcend cliques. I had friends who were "Geeks", "Jocks", "Stoners" and outcasts. I went to college but I also enjoyed Metal shop, wood shop, and automotive classes. The kids that took these classes weren't losers or stupid, they just preferred working and creating with their own hands. They all had dreams and aspirations of doing well and contributing to society. On the West coast the High School I went to served mainly middle to upper income kids and had a very well developed Vocational program. They had large metal and wood shops as well as a three or four bay auto shop. The first time we moved to the East coast I attended a similar HS but the vocational program was just an afterthought where most of the struggling students were thrown to have something to do. More just a hole in the wall than a real shop. Unfortunately that's the sentiment that has prevailed in the years since that time.






William

[Kontact]

Thanks for posting the link to Mike Rowe's speech. It rings very true to me and reminds me of my Grandfather as well.

In High School I was one of those people that seemed to transcend cliques. I had friends who were "Geeks", "Jocks", "Stoners" and outcasts. I went to college but I also enjoyed Metal shop, wood shop, and automotive classes. The kids that took these classes weren't losers or stupid, they just preferred working and creating with their own hands. They all had dreams and aspirations of doing well and contributing to society. On the West coast the High School I went to served mainly middle to upper income kids and had a very well developed Vocational program. They had large metal and wood shops as well as a three or four bay auto shop. The first time we moved to the East coast I attended a similar HS but the vocational program was just an afterthought where most of the struggling students were thrown to have something to do. More just a hole in the wall than a real shop. Unfortunately that's the sentiment that has prevailed in the years since that time.






William
Just for clarity, the situation in my high school was positive for the students that took shop - good instructors and facilities. My point was mainly that shop should have attracted more different kinds of people, rather than have social groups dictate what sort of classes kids gravitated toward. I see it as an artificial limiting factor on what kind of people have the background to do a range of industrial jobs.

[Dustin]

Good stuff. Too many kids are now led to believe that anything short of a college degree will make them a failure. Too many of them finish with a useless degree, a mountain of student loan debt, and few good job prospects.

I'm still paying off student loan debt 9 years after finishing grad school while some of my cousins who went into skilled trades had no loans, and now make well more than I do.

Who's laughing now, college boy? :cool:

[fourflys]

Good stuff. Too many kids are now led to believe that anything short of a college degree will make them a failure. Too many of them finish with a useless degree, a mountain of student loan debt, and few good job prospects.

I'm still paying off student loan debt 9 years after finishing grad school while some of my cousins who went into skilled trades had no loans, and now make well more than I do.

Who's laughing now, college boy? :cool:

Hey Dustin! :D

I agree there are a lot of useless degrees out there but you gotta admit a Bachelor's degree today is similar to a high school degree 20 yrs ago... or at least almost to that point...

My dad was skilled trades (millwright) at Ford Motor for 37 yrs and was making over $100k a year when he finally retired... BUT, those jobs are few and far between these days... and when I inquired about working in the factory he said "not only no, but h*ll no!"

the sad fact is we might have some pockets here and there where skilled trades are used, but the days of making the majority of stuff here is just gone... I've been in business school now for almost two years and that is pretty much what all the experts say (and numbers back it up)... like it or not, cost is too big a factor to have any major manufacturing in a country like the US...

now if you want to talk BioTech or some of the more intellectual type industries, I think that is where the future of our country is...

[54ny77]

there is no cup of coffee that a graduate in comparative transgender literature can't make at starbucks.

[gemship]

Good stuff. Too many kids are now led to believe that anything short of a college degree will make them a failure. Too many of them finish with a useless degree, a mountain of student loan debt, and few good job prospects.

I'm still paying off student loan debt 9 years after finishing grad school while some of my cousins who went into skilled trades had no loans, and now make well more than I do.

Who's laughing now, college boy? :cool:


You should also consider the journey to happiness. Are your cousin's happy? I worked in manufacturing environments off and on for roughly seventeen years. Ten years ago I started out work in machine shops. Worked as a deburrer/stock boy. Moved on as a cnc operator, did some inspection and secondary operations on manual machines. Eventually grew familiar with reading blueprints and cnc programs as well as setting up the cnc milling machines less so with the cnc lathes. Machine shop is a hard inorganic environment. Cnc's are cool to work with but what it takes to make money at the bread and butter is repetitive and boring. The air in the shop can be thick with oil at times, hard to breathe. Lots of loud noises and the constant droning sound of hydraulics, air compressors. A lot of the people I worked with meant well but were of a lowly character and mediocre, riddled with bad habits, smoking in the workplace sometimes drugs and booze. Lots of egos heck their were some brilliantly talented old machinist that seemed threatened by a young guy starting out and would go out of their way to not show you the right way, they take their knowledge to the grave. I still like machining and I believe that the bread and butter is boorish but reserve the right to make exceptions for certain companies and the right product. For that product would probably be anything cycling, motor related. I don't care for the medical industry or defense, what I worked on. This past year I worked for a lobsterman, totally different, I got sea sick a lot and adjusted, I don't really like being on boats too much, it's dangerous out there and can get cold but fun, different, no real money in it except for the fisherman whom owns the boat and permits and even then they feel victim to the dealers and gov't enviro's with catch shares

[gemship]

Hey Dustin! :D

I agree there are a lot of useless degrees out there but you gotta admit a Bachelor's degree today is similar to a high school degree 20 yrs ago... or at least almost to that point...

My dad was skilled trades (millwright) at Ford Motor for 37 yrs and was making over $100k a year when he finally retired... BUT, those jobs are few and far between these days... and when I inquired about working in the factory he said "not only no, but h*ll no!"

the sad fact is we might have some pockets here and there where skilled trades are used, but the days of making the majority of stuff here is just gone... I've been in business school now for almost two years and that is pretty much what all the experts say (and numbers back it up)... like it or not, cost is too big a factor to have any major manufacturing in a country like the US...

now if you want to talk BioTech or some of the more intellectual type industries, I think that is where the future of our country is...


Well your old man benefitted big time, no secret that the unions got carried away with the big three. Sadly to say I think many of those factory workers were over paid. In fact where I live there's only a few union machine shops and they all overpay compared to the nonunion,also they all have had to layoff lots and even file bankruptcy for some. It's sad to say all this because I always believed the management to be the biggest overhead and the management had really a minimal part in making the product.

[gemship]

there is no cup of coffee that a graduate in comparative transgender literature can't make at starbucks.


We could probably use a Starbucks where I live, we have like six if not more Dunkin Donuts in a ten mile radius and I think it used to 50k to buy that franchise, I think now its 500k. Some Portugese immigrant pretty much owns all of them where I live and only hires Brazilians. Who would of thought....:crap:

[fourflys]

Well your old man benefitted big time, no secret that the unions got carried away with the big three. Sadly to say I think many of those factory workers were over paid. In fact where I live there's only a few union machine shops and they all overpay compared to the nonunion,also they all have had to layoff lots and even file bankruptcy for some. It's sad to say all this because I always believed the management to be the biggest overhead and the management had really a minimal part in making the product.

no arguments here... unions have far outlived their usefulness IMHO... there will always be small machine shops and the like that use skilled labor, I don't doubt that... my point was manufacturing as a major employment industry is pretty much a thing of the past I feel...

[gemship]

no arguments here... unions have far outlived their usefulness IMHO... there will always be small machine shops and the like that use skilled labor, I don't doubt that... my point was manufacturing as a major employment industry is pretty much a thing of the past I feel...


It seems to me that if the management (using the big three as ex.) weren't so greedy which in turn stirs up envy amongst the workers and pressures the union stewards then maybe with a whole lot less greed and the right number crunching more of that work could of stayed in America.

[fourflys]

It seems to me that if the management (using the big three as ex.) weren't so greedy which in turn stirs up envy amongst the workers and pressures the union stewards then maybe with a whole lot less greed and the right number crunching more of that work could of stayed in America.

agree to a point... but there are so many other factors to forced production overseas... cost of living, regulations, etc... not saying all of those are better overseas, but it does help the bottom line and that is what many CEO's see...

[gemship]

agree to a point... but there are so many other factors to forced production overseas... cost of living, regulations, etc... not saying all of those are better overseas, but it does help the bottom line and that is what many CEO's see...


yeah I'm not disagreeing more just stating the obvious and China is probably figuring out how to address their problems with people leaving the country to live in the city and air pollution which over there is pretty bad. They do have a real calamity over there with all this new found development and manufacturing. Life is such a paradox. I like having Walmart around because their jeans and household goods are what I can afford but I'm supporting made in China :crap: I'm worth the same amount as anybody was twenty years ago but my standard of living is rising and the civil service quality seems to be lessoning.

[comptechgsr]

wow great stuff

[maunahaole]

This got teased on npr the other day. Not sure if I'm reposting to the other npr callout above, but interesting stuff.

http://www.marketplace.org/topics/business/what-happened-factories-mr-rogers-neighborhood

[comptechgsr]

I've observed that in Europe (I'm remembering specifically Germany but it's the same in other countries I have visited), the guys that build, fix, and clean up all the things people rely on every day hold a higher position socially than they seem to in the US.

BL

Same goes in Japan

[William]

Desperately seeking Americans for factory jobs

http://money.cnn.com/2012/02/16/smallbusiness/manufacturing_jobs/index.htm?iid=Lead&hpt=hp_c1

NEW YORK (CNNMoney) -- U.S. factories are creating many new jobs. But owners are hard pressed to find skilled American workers to fill them.

There is a "critical shortage of machinists," a common and crucial position in factories, said Rob Akers, vice president at the National Tooling and Machining Association. "Enrollment in this field in technical schools has been down for a long time."

The problem comes at a terrible time. Domestic contract manufacturers -- known as "job shops" -- are seeing a boom in business.

In the case of Win-Tech, a Kennesaw, Ga., manufacturer, orders are coming in fast and furious from its customers in the defense and aerospace industries.

But the company's owner Dennis Winslow is more concerned than elated......





W.

[DonH]

You should also consider the journey to happiness. Are your cousin's happy? I worked in manufacturing environments off and on for roughly seventeen years. Ten years ago I started out work in machine shops. Worked as a deburrer/stock boy. Moved on as a cnc operator, did some inspection and secondary operations on manual machines. Eventually grew familiar with reading blueprints and cnc programs as well as setting up the cnc milling machines less so with the cnc lathes. Machine shop is a hard inorganic environment. Cnc's are cool to work with but what it takes to make money at the bread and butter is repetitive and boring. The air in the shop can be thick with oil at times, hard to breathe. Lots of loud noises and the constant droning sound of hydraulics, air compressors. A lot of the people I worked with meant well but were of a lowly character and mediocre, riddled with bad habits, smoking in the workplace sometimes drugs and booze. Lots of egos heck their were some brilliantly talented old machinist that seemed threatened by a young guy starting out and would go out of their way to not show you the right way, they take their knowledge to the grave. I still like machining and I believe that the bread and butter is boorish but reserve the right to make exceptions for certain companies and the right product. For that product would probably be anything cycling, motor related. I don't care for the medical industry or defense, what I worked on. This past year I worked for a lobsterman, totally different, I got sea sick a lot and adjusted, I don't really like being on boats too much, it's dangerous out there and can get cold but fun, different, no real money in it except for the fisherman whom owns the boat and permits and even then they feel victim to the dealers and gov't enviro's with catch shares

Sounds like your manufacturing days left a bad taste in your mouth, but you worked hard and progressed through the ranks anyway.
My career path is similar, but now almost 34 years later I'm still at it (but now I'm an Engineering Mgr. - I still get my hands dirty a lot though and wouldnt have it any other way). I started part time at a local machine shop cutting stock at age 16.
Regarding the noise, low character traits,bad habits, smoking, drugs,booze,etc. I truly think you can run into that in any type of work. All shops are definitely NOT like that anymore.