New build help - all-road

[wooly]

Happy New Years. I've got a new project for 2012. Just put a deposit in on a Geekhouse (www.geekhousebikes.com). Marty Walsh really is a great guy to work with. Trying to stick with my one bike philosophy I've now justified a new bike to fit a "niche" :D . I rarely ride my 29er, as it's a little to big, and honestly I don't ride off-road that much. I thought I'd build a road like bike that can fit larger tires, fenders and maybe a rack for some light touring. But this bike will primarily be used for road and fire trail riding.

Since my Vagen has Dura Ace, I'm leaning towards going with Shimano or SRAm to keep my wheel options similar. I'm considering using an XT/XTR derailleur to have some low gearing for steeper mountain climbs. Will that work with Shimano road shifters? And will an XT/XTR cassette work on my Chris King road wheelsets? I've got one with classic hubs and one with R45's.

This process should be fun. I'm really looking forward to it as I haven't done a custom build since my Parlee Z1 back in 2004ish.

Thanks for the help.

Ron

[EmoryDPTT]

The pull/indexing ratio is different btwn road and mtn drive trains. Many in the past have used 10sp sti shimano shifters with shimano mtn 9sp rear derailleurs. If you're worried about gratin options, why. It do full road group and a triple of compact in the front and then get an 11-28t for the rear?

[Smiley]

Wooly,
I just built my wife a similar concept and we went with SRAM Force with a compac front (50/34) and a SRAM X9 10 speed medium deraileur in the rear with a 12-32 cassette. She can climb a tree with this set up. Go look her bike up in the custom gallery as its set up with 28 mm wide tires now but we can easily slip 32-34 mm in the rear with wider rims.
Its the Bedford Sport Tourer set up with Pauls Canti's

[wooly]

Wooly,
I just built my wife a similar concept and we went with SRAM Force with a compac front (50/34) and a SRAM X9 10 speed medium deraileur in the rear with a 12-32 cassette. She can climb a tree with this set up. Go look her bike up in the custom gallery as its set up with 28 mm wide tires now but we can easily slip 32-34 mm in the rear with wider rims.
Its the Bedford Sport Tourer set up with Pauls Canti's

Smiley - I've been reading that thread with interest. So it sounds like you can mix and match SRAM road and rear derailleurs. How about Shimano 10 speed?

Also, I just want to make sure I can use some of my current wheels. Can I use a 10 speed mtb cassette on my King road wheels?

[Smiley]

Smiley - I've been reading that thread with interest. So it sounds like you can mix and match SRAM road and rear derailleurs. How about Shimano 10 speed?

Also, I just want to make sure I can use some of my current wheels. Can I use a 10 speed mtb cassette on my King road wheels?


I can't imagine a cassette if 10 speed won't work on any Shimano or SRAM body. We used road wheels to fit a 12-32 SRAM cassette on her old rear wheel.

No issues anymore with SRAM mixing and matching stuff it seems. Fact is her set up works GREAT.

[Louis]

The pull/indexing ratio is different btwn road and mtn drive trains.

For 9-spd Shimano this is not the case (for the R-der).

I have mixed and matched road shifters with MTB rear derailleurs (and cassettes) and they work flawlessly. I don't know for 10-spd.

Louis

[roydyates]

If you're using 10 spd shimano road shifters, avoid the new 10 speed XT/XTR Dynasys rear derailleurs. The cable pull is wrong. As mentioned above, the 9 speed mtb RDs work fine.

Of course, if you're using 11-28 cassettes, you can get away with the road RD

[mvrider]

10-sp Shimano shifters work perfectly with 9-speed Shimano rear derailleurs. Use a 10-sp cassette, either from Shimano or SRAM.

Some of the newer Shimano MTB RDs do not have a barrel adjuster, so be sure you have an in-line adjuster elsewhere. Works great on my wife's bike:

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-nJapVNSe6Xs/Tm7iNI5JWwI/AAAAAAAAAh0/-v-23qWzeZo/s720/20110911-T2i-6335.jpg

[GRAVELBIKE]

I'm in the process of building up a rough-stuff/all-rounder with the following drivetrain:

Campag Centaur 10spd levers
Shimano R4550 cranks (34/46)
Shimano 9-speed cassette (11-32, 34, or 36)
KMC chain
Campag front derailleur
daVinci/SRAM rear derailleur

I used to swear by triples, but I find that I now prefer a double (unless I need something well below 1:1).

[Louis]

Some of the newer Shimano MTB RDs do not have a barrel adjuster, so be sure you have an in-line adjuster elsewhere.

I wonder if it would be possible to somehow put an adjuster right at the derailleur, so it would be just like the "old style" that do have one right there where the cable + housing meet the derailleur?

[GRAVELBIKE]

I wonder if it would be possible to somehow put an adjuster right at the derailleur, so it would be just like the "old style" that do have one right there where the cable + housing meet the derailleur?

Like these?

http://jagwireusa.com/index.php/products/v/Rocket_Adjusters

[Louis]

Like these?

http://jagwireusa.com/index.php/products/v/Rocket_Adjusters

Exactly, but the Jagwire site doesn't say where they are intended to be used - at the HT / DT stops, or if they will also work at the R-der itself.

Edit - I just found the "Instructions" and they only talk about putting them at the shifters.

Edit #2 - BTW, the reason I ask this is that on some of my bikes I use DT shifters, which means that I can't use the adapter up at the shifter itself or on the cable near the shifter.

[thendenjeck]

as far as i know, sram mtb and road rd's are not compatible. shimano 10s mtb and road rd's are not compatible. shimano 9s is. it works perfectly. there are charts that show you what other cockameme cross-brand combos will work but i dont know where it is.

[wooly]

So to be crystal clear a shimano 9 speed "shadow" rear derailleur will shift ALL 10 cogs of the 10 speed mountain sram or shimano cassette?

I feel totally out of my element on this topic!

[wooly]

So to be crystal clear a shimano 9 speed "shadow" rear derailleur will shift ALL 10 cogs of the 10 speed mountain sram or shimano cassette?

I feel totally out of my element on this topic!

And if I throw a dura ace cassette on will the shimano shadow rear der. shift properly too?

[thendenjeck]

yes, as long as the cage is long enough for the cassette size you are trying to use. now the shifter combo is another story...

[GRAVELBIKE]

Exactly, but the Jagwire site doesn't say where they are intended to be used - at the HT / DT stops, or if they will also work at the R-der itself.

Edit - I just found the "Instructions" and they only talk about putting them at the shifters.

Edit #2 - BTW, the reason I ask this is that on some of my bikes I use DT shifters, which means that I can't use the adapter up at the shifter itself or on the cable near the shifter.

You can install them almost anywhere there's room.

[oldpotatoe]

Happy New Years. I've got a new project for 2012. Just put a deposit in on a Geekhouse (www.geekhousebikes.com). Marty Walsh really is a great guy to work with. Trying to stick with my one bike philosophy I've now justified a new bike to fit a "niche" :D . I rarely ride my 29er, as it's a little to big, and honestly I don't ride off-road that much. I thought I'd build a road like bike that can fit larger tires, fenders and maybe a rack for some light touring. But this bike will primarily be used for road and fire trail riding.

Since my Vagen has Dura Ace, I'm leaning towards going with Shimano or SRAm to keep my wheel options similar. I'm considering using an XT/XTR derailleur to have some low gearing for steeper mountain climbs. Will that work with Shimano road shifters? And will an XT/XTR cassette work on my Chris King road wheelsets? I've got one with classic hubs and one with R45's.

This process should be fun. I'm really looking forward to it as I haven't done a custom build since my Parlee Z1 back in 2004ish.

Thanks for the help.

Ron

-XT/XTR rear der works fine with STI but the 9s version, not the 10s version.
-A XT/XTR cogset will fit fine on CK hubs, either 9s or 10s

[oldpotatoe]

as far as i know, sram mtb and road rd's are not compatible. shimano 10s mtb and road rd's are not compatible. shimano 9s is. it works perfectly. there are charts that show you what other cockameme cross-brand combos will work but i dont know where it is.

sram road shifters ARE compatible with sram 10s rear ders, but not sram 9s rear ders.

shimano STI(9s and 10s) ARE NOT compatible with shimano 10s rear ders but are with shimano 9s rear ders.

confusing isn't it.

[wooly]

sram road shifters ARE compatible with sram 10s rear ders, but not sram 9s rear ders.

shimano STI(9s and 10s) ARE NOT compatible with shimano 10s rear ders but are with shimano 9s rear ders.

confusing isn't it.

Thanks Peter. What would you go with? Sram or Shimano, and what group level if you were building an all-road bike?

[sc53]

Peter would probably go with Campy; Smiley went with Force combo road/MTB; and I am going with all Apex for my rebuild of my CSI (was Campy 8 speed). I'll let you know how it works out! On my randonneur bike I have Shimano 9 speed bar end shifters and MTB RD and cassette. Wanted to have brifters on the CSI thus the Apex.

[Kontact]

Microshift MTB derailleurs have considerable capacity and work with Shimano road shifters. Rivendell sells them, and they are on ebay, if you want an alternative to Deore 9 or going to SRAM.

[fourflys]

I think I posted this on the gravel bike thread, but I'll repost here...

the SRAM Apex and current Rival rd will accommodate an 11-32 cassette... both have SRAM's WIFLI tech... haven't used it on my Rival bike but it works like butta on the Vaya with Apex...

[pdmtong]

Will this have long reach calipers, cross canti's or mini-v's (TRP 8.4)?

Happy with the added power of the V's for wet and gravel riding - willing to trade off the mud clearance as I only use the bike a handful of times for CX racing.

[fourflys]

Will this have long reach calipers, cross canti's or mini-v's (TRP 8.4)?

Happy with the added power of the V's for wet and gravel riding - willing to trade off the mud clearance as I only use the bike a handful of times for CX racing.

+1 on the TRP's!

[oldpotatoe]

Thanks Peter. What would you go with? Sram or Shimano, and what group level if you were building an all-road bike?

As I mentioned in a bike mag article, paraphrased, I would rather walk than use sram BUT

shimano, 105(5700) stuff is very nice, works well and is durable. If the coffee shop pundits won't allow 5700, get 6700, also really nice. All is more functional, more reliable, than sram anything. If ya need really low gearing, get a XT 9s Rear Der, a SLX 10s cogset and as they say, bobs yer uncle.

Since ya want to keep the rear wheel shimano.

[palincss]

shimano STI(9s and 10s) ARE NOT compatible with shimano 10s rear ders but are with shimano 9s rear ders.

confusing isn't it.

You do mean STI are incompatible with Shimano 10spd MTB rear derailleurs, yes? And that means Shimano 10spd MTB cassettes are compatible with road shifters and 9spd Shimano MTB rear derailleurs?

[wooly]

Will this have long reach calipers, cross canti's or mini-v's (TRP 8.4)?

Happy with the added power of the V's for wet and gravel riding - willing to trade off the mud clearance as I only use the bike a handful of times for CX racing.

Was thinking about Paul Racers or the TRP's (per your rec).

Also trying to figure out a way to go campy with it becoming a frankenbike. Plus I'm faced with the dreaded wheel switch problem. I like my King hubbed wheels!

[pdmtong]

Was thinking about Paul Racers or the TRP's (per your rec).

Also trying to figure out a way to go campy with it becoming a frankenbike. Plus I'm faced with the dreaded wheel switch problem. I like my King hubbed wheels!

seriously...how many times will you really switch wheels?

find a used set of current incarnation kysrium elites...$400 of 1550g bomber and flail them on the dirt.

king campy should be shipping by now...time for new hubs :)

BTW, I am really liking the specialized purist bottles we picked up at AC. the squeeze valve works nicely and the lids fit my 3 dozen other specialized bottles.

should have taken a pic of that 2012 marcelo and Di2 baum...

[wooly]

should have taken a pic of that 2012 marcelo and Di2 baum...

That Peg will be yours by March :D

[AngryScientist]

Also trying to figure out a way to go campy with it becoming a frankenbike. Plus I'm faced with the dreaded wheel switch problem. I like my King hubbed wheels!

as mentioned, king hubs for campy should be here soon!

yea, it's difficult to get a low geared modern campy drivetrain, 11-sp with stock components. i think this is a shame, there are many folks, like myself who love campy, and sometimes need some options for low, mountain climbing gearing for mortals. maybe someday.

if you're starting from scratch, and need low touring/climbing typed gearing, shimano is probably the way to go. 9-sp mtb rd's are cheap and very reliable. this is the set-up i have on my cross bike, and shifting in the rear is great with the nice long cage RD and wide range cassette.

cant wait to see it, i've always lusted for a geekhouse.

[fourflys]

if you're starting from scratch, and need low touring/climbing typed gearing, shimano is probably the way to go. 9-sp mtb rd's are cheap and very reliable. this is the set-up i have on my cross bike, and shifting in the rear is great with the nice long cage RD and wide range cassette.
.

or just go with SRAM and have 10 speed... I really only ever see 1 person on here who has seen/experienced issues with SRAM (the rest is just hot air about what people have read/heard)...

It seems to be the go-to system for most cross racers (even those not sponsored) and I can't see a dirt road bike taking more abuse than a cross bike...

YMMV...

[AngryScientist]

or just go with SRAM and have 10 speed... .

to be clear, the only 9-sp shimano component you would need is the RD, the rest of the drivetrain can be 10-sp.

[fourflys]

to be clear, the only 9-sp shimano component you would need is the RD, the rest of the drivetrain can be 10-sp.

you can use a 10-sp cassette? I probably missed that part... :D

[GRAVELBIKE]

Here's some useful info:

http://www.ctc.org.uk/desktopdefault.aspx?tabid=3946

Note that Campy 10 will work with Shimano 8 and not require any shenanigans. 11-speed Campy is compatible with Shimano 9.

You can also use a JTek Shift-Mate to mix-n-match.

[wooly]

you can use a 10-sp cassette? I probably missed that part... :D

I hear you Flys. So it appears that both Shim and Sram can accommodate 10 gears but SRAM does it more seamlessly. I haven't ridden Sram but am willing to try it. I've got to see if I like the hoods. They seem similar to the old campy 10 speed hoods but not as flat on the tops. Hmmm.

[fourflys]

I've got to see if I like the hoods. They seem similar to the old campy 10 speed hoods but not as flat on the tops. Hmmm.

for sure... that was one of the reasons I switched to SRAM... I bought a used Steelman with Rival and found I really liked the hood shape.... Shimano hoods always felt huge in my hands (and long)...

you're in SoCal, right? If so, you're welcome to try my SRAM bikes for an extended ride or two...

[wooly]

for sure... that was one of the reasons I switched to SRAM... I bought a used Steelman with Rival and found I really liked the hood shape.... Shimano hoods always felt huge in my hands (and long)...

you're in SoCal, right? If so, you're welcome to try my SRAM bikes for an extended ride or two...

That's awesome. Thanks. I may be pm'ing you to check it out.

[pdmtong]

the hood shape is a non-issue if youlike the campy 10sp hood shape. sram shifting is just a little less automatic to me than 10sp campy...meaning I can put myslef in exactly the gear I want without thinking with campy, but that is not always exactly the case with sram. it might be just practice with the "feel" of the lever throw, but I am 2k in on 20210 force and still haven t quite got it like my campy bike(s)

One thing I dont like about sram is that when you are in the last big cog and forget you are there, trying to downshift to the next gear down (which doesnt exist) actually upshifts you a gear. that does not happen with campy since the lever wont move if trying to downshift to a non existent gear