Rivendell troubles

[wolfemp]

Like many of the small and attractive players in the bike business, Rivendell looks to be having troubles. I have no connection to them other than as a happy rider of their bikes along with others. Check this out and see if there's any late Christmas gifts to yourself...
http://www.rivbike.com/Rivendell-Sale-s/571.htm

Read Grant's comments about debt to understand my post. Not the first time, probablly not the last. No business, Serotta or Rivendell gets smaller by real choice.

Edit 1/3/12: I'm baffled by comment wondering if I have some axe to grind here? I like the product - and the contrarian position - of Rivendell and GP, received notice of the special sale, along with the commentary about financial pressures and down sizing. I never post, but thought it was worth passing on for any of similar interest or willingness to purchase.

[eddief]

...and Grant tends to share more than most about the financial ins and outs of his business. so maybe just a simple belt tightening and maybe not. regardless, he does good work, sells some good stuff, shares a unique offkilterish philosophy and i wish Riv the best in 2012.

[Ken Robb]

I won't read too much into the sale. I think they just realized that they can't do a good job if they let their inventory selection get too big. They like to support manufacturers who make stuff they like themselves. This can lead to an inventory with too many choices for a small business to manage efficiently.

[Kontact]

I don't think sale pricing stuff that's getting discontinued is much of an evil omen.


Riv continues to offer their straight gauge tubing $2000 wonder frames at full price.

[ultratoad]

Great outfit.... Stellar products and service.... Wish them the very best....

[don compton]

I am not sure how to take your comment.


Riv continues to offer their straight gauge tubing $2000 wonder frames at full price.[/QUOTE]

[Charles M]

of course this is the Serotta forum so we can twist even the most basic words...

But I think he thinks the sale is no big deal because the core products are not on sale.


A sale means squat in and of it's self.


In the paragraph above the sale though, they say they have 3 big bills coming shortly and dont have the money. That might be what the OP is refering to.

[Kontact]

I am not sure how to take your comment.


Riv continues to offer their straight gauge tubing $2000 wonder frames at full price.[/QUOTE]
I was just being sassy. Riv doesn't say anything about their frame construction or tubing selection, many frames have mid tube lugs, and they have a reputation for being overly stiff and harsh riding (with high pressure tires). All that just seems to support the rumors that their products are made of straight gauge tubing, despite the cost.

But I should have put a ;) at the end of my first post. Sorry if I offended.

[oldpotatoe]

I was just being sassy. Riv doesn't say anything about their frame construction or tubing selection, many frames have mid tube lugs, and they have a reputation for being overly stiff and harsh riding (with high pressure tires). All that just seems to support the rumors that their products are made of straight gauge tubing, despite the cost.

But I should have put a ;) at the end of my first post. Sorry if I offended.[/QUOTE]

Not butting a tube, whether steel or titanium, doesn't mean the ride will be 'harsh' or 'stiff riding'. Butted tube is lighter, both tubes with the same OD, but hooked together the same, one isn't stiffer than the other to the point of being harsh, IMHO. Too many other things go into this equation. .9mm thruout vs .9/.7/.9 no difference in ride, as an example.

Back to the post, I think Grant feels he is providing some sort of essential public service, his company and we should feel that in his time of need, we should support this endeavor. But in reality, it's just a bike company, where cash flow is always the most important thing. Line of credit, perhaps, in winter? Not unheard of.

[thwart]

Riv doesn't say anything about their frame construction or tubing selection, many frames have mid tube lugs, and they have a reputation for being overly stiff and harsh riding (with high pressure tires). Dunno... I've got a Riv Romulus, running 23 mm tires, and one of the last things I'd ever say about that frame is that it's stiff and harsh-riding. It's not very light, but that's the only 'con' I can think of...

[Kontact]

Not butting a tube, whether steel or titanium, doesn't mean the ride will be 'harsh' or 'stiff riding'. Butted tube is lighter, both tubes with the same OD, but hooked together the same, one isn't stiffer than the other to the point of being harsh, IMHO. Too many other things go into this equation. .9mm thruout vs .9/.7/.9 no difference in ride, as an example.

I can think of a couple of steel frame builders who would disagree with this, despite it being largely true about Ti.


I'm sure Riv is feeling what all retailers are right now - winter slowdown after a bad retail year. And banks aren't handing out much credit right now.

I think it is strange to air one's finances publicly - selling lifetime warrantied products and making your business seem anything less than 100% are not really compatible.

[Chance]

I can think of a couple of steel frame builders who would disagree with this, despite it being largely true about Ti.
Why would it apply to steel more than titanium? :confused:

It's hard to follow this difference when butting the center section of tube to less wall thickness reduces stiffness of tube proportionally the same for ti and steel.


I think it is strange to air one's finances publicly - selling lifetime warrantied products and making your business seem anything less than 100% are not really compatible.
Companies downsize and or lay off employees all the time. It's strange that he is going into details about due payments but if we read between the lines it is not that uncommon for companies to air being in trouble.

[Kontact]

Why would it apply to steel more than titanium? :confused:

It's hard to follow this difference when butting the center section of tube to less wall thickness reduces stiffness of tube proportionally the same for ti and steel.
I don't have an explanation for you, but I do know that almost all ti experts believe that butting has almost no effect on ride qualities in their bikes, but steel experts and riders believe that the difference even two butted tube sets of the same diameter is discernable. I'm sure someone like Tom Kellogg, who knows as much as anyone on both materials, could nail it down for you.

I imagine that the preferred diameters and material density has a lot to do with this difference. I would also guess that aluminum is less sensitive to butting as well, since it is also less dense. But really, they are all different materials with different combinations of properties, so they should feel/act different. People can feel all sorts of things that aren't easy to define with the language of engineering texts.

[palincss]

IPeople can feel all sorts of things that aren't easy to define with the language of engineering texts.

People can feel all sorts of things that don't have any measurable existence, too.

[Kontact]

People can feel all sorts of things that don't have any measurable existence, too.
I'm not talking about Jesus.

Are you just arguing, or do you also think that non-butted steel feels the same as thinner tubing?

[Kirk Pacenti]

For the record, Rivendell uses butted tubing. :beer:

[markie]

I have a quickbeam. It is a great bike. I recommend the simple-one. Now with $200 off.

(((FWIW if i do the finger-nail tap test on the main tubes of mine it sounds like they are butted. Not that I think it would change much other than weight.)))

[buck-50]

Dunno... I've got a Riv Romulus, running 23 mm tires, and one of the last things I'd ever say about that frame is that it's stiff and harsh-riding. It's not very light, but that's the only 'con' I can think of...
Funny- my romulus, running 32s on some of the same roads you ride on was really harsh. But that's the joy of bikes- one man's harsh bike is another's smooth riding dream.

I just remember the seat stays on my 60 were like tree trunks... :)

[roydyates]

I'm sure Riv is feeling what all retailers are right now - winter slowdown after a bad retail year. And banks aren't handing out much credit right now.

I think it is strange to air one's finances publicly - selling lifetime warrantied products and making your business seem anything less than 100% are not really compatible.
The economics of bike manufacturing have been a pretty consistent theme in Grant's postings since day 1 when the birth of Rivendell was the result of Bridgestone's inability to make profits in the US market. The recurring theme has been that nobody at Rivendell is getting rich. When the economy was better, he would say they were doing ok. Some of this is marketing since it gives the customers a sense that they are getting a good value. Also, his references to the economics of Rivendell are often in relation to their decisions about where in the world (USA, Japan, Taiwan) the frames get sourced.

[NHAero]

Sheldon Brown has a brief discussion of frame materials, stiffness, and ride quality here http://www.sheldonbrown.com/frame-materials.html
I'd be surprised if butted vs. non-butted tubing contributed to a perceptible difference in ride. There are other portions of the assembly between road and the rider's butt and hands with noticeably more compliance than the frame (such as the tire.)
Almost 40 years ago when the aluminum bicycle frame project was happening at MIT Dept of Mech Eng'g we tested every frame we could get our hands on in vertical and torsional stiffness. These were all steel. They varied in torsional stiffness, but vertical deflection was in the single thousandths of an inch with substantial weight applied.
I think that the size of the frame matters, due to where the rider's butt is relative to the wheelbase. Big frames put the rider closer to directly over the rear wheel so for a given displacement of the wheel the rider feels a larger percent of that displacement than a rider on a smaller frame.
Finally, I don't think this applies to forks in the same manner, since a fork is a cantilever and bends noticeably, whereas the frame is a very stiff beam vertically by comparison.
Feel free to disagree - my experience is in the distant past, yet it is based on actual measurements. Certainly no titanium or carbon frames were amongst those tested.

Funny- my romulus, running 32s on some of the same roads you ride on was really harsh. But that's the joy of bikes- one man's harsh bike is another's smooth riding dream.

I just remember the seat stays on my 60 were like tree trunks... :)

[buck-50]

I've been impressed by the number of parts he tries to source in the US.

Way back in the late nineties, Riv was just starting up and they were having some serious cash problems- I bought a nitto stem and a brooks saddle from them to help out and I've been a fan ever since.

I appreciate what they do and Grant has definitely changed cycling for the better.

[froze]

Grant needs to quit selling odd ball stuff that only appeals to a few quirky rich people. Some of the stuff he sells is completely useless for touring, it's just for looks. Then he overcharges for the stuff he sells when people today simply check the internet for better prices and will find those better prices 100% of the time! He has a Nitto Technomic stem for sale at $40, I got the same stem from Nigara Cycles for $32, his sale price is still too high! Just look at the quirky and ugly bags he has on sale, who buys that stuff? I've never even see a woman cyclist use that crap not alone trying to appeal the larger male segment of the cyclist population. I think he needs to go more main stream and get away from so much of the small quirky niche market products and sell stuff that the real world of cycling would use.

But that's just my worthless and meaningless opinion.

[Ken Robb]

Grant needs to quit selling odd ball stuff that only appeals to a few quirky rich people. Some of the stuff he sells is completely useless for touring, it's just for looks. Then he overcharges for the stuff he sells when people today simply check the internet for better prices and will find those better prices 100% of the time! He has a Nitto Technomic stem for sale at $40, I got the same stem from Nigara Cycles for $32, his sale price is still too high! Just look at the quirky and ugly bags he has on sale, who buys that stuff? I've never even see a woman cyclist use that crap not alone trying to appeal the larger male segment of the cyclist population. I think he needs to go more main stream and get away from so much of the small quirky niche market products and sell stuff that the real world of cycling would use.

But that's just my worthless and meaningless opinion.

It's only partly worthless. :) We can buy some of his mainstream stuff for less elsewhere so if he didn't offer "niche products" not available elsewhere how would he survive?

[buck-50]

Must... resist... Rivendell flamewar...

[froze]

It's only partly worthless. :) We can buy some of his mainstream stuff for less elsewhere so if he didn't offer "niche products" not available elsewhere how would he survive?

Interesting question. The quirky niche market by itself is too small for him to survive by it alone, which is what he tries to do. I could understand having a small selection of quirky stuff not found anywhere, but to try to make it 50% or more of his business is just suicide. I know this came up once before on another forum, and one of the members said he had a benefactor that was pumping money into his operation because this person believed strongly in quirky stuff, maybe the benefactor is no longer around? Or maybe the story isn't true? I don't know. But he has great bikes, and even though those bikes are for a different crowd that crowd is larger then the crowd for ugly, quirky, and just plain weird looking saddle and handlebar bags; and those bags won't even hold up for touring, yet his bikes are made for touring. Even a few models of his bikes are quirky, like the double top tube models, who really needs a frame with dual top tubes? It's just weird. But I think if he wants to sell touring bikes then he needs to offer touring bags that will survive the real world of touring and not for some sunny Sunday ride to have a picnic somewhere. Some of clothing is just nerdy, although he has gotten a little be away from being overly nerdy in the last couple of years.

[eddief]

GP is all right by me and I wish him and his company good fortune and longevity. But the comment above about double top tubes got me to wondering. Grant has put a lot of energy and resources into the 2 top tube idea. He even partnered with Merry Sales to get the San Marcos into production and those in the big sizes have double top tubes. And I know some are attracted to a bike built that way, but not me, and I wonder how many of those are going out the door. It would be a bummer to be sitting on a big bunch of gorgeous lugged framesets with an extra top tube. I am just thinking out loud and hope I am completely wrong.

[Kontact]

GP is all right by me and I wish him and his company good fortune and longevity. But the comment above about double top tubes got me to wondering. Grant has put a lot of energy and resources into the 2 top tube idea. He even partnered with Merry Sales to get the San Marcos into production and those in the big sizes have double top tubes. And I know some are attracted to a bike built that way, but not me, and I wonder how many of those are going out the door. It would be a bummer to be sitting on a big bunch of gorgeous lugged framesets with an extra top tube. I am just thinking out loud and hope I am completely wrong.
Do you have a link to any explanation for the double top tube? It seems like it would just make the bike less vertically compliant without decreasing any sort of torsion.

[markie]

Umm. You guys talk like the double top-tube bike was invented by G.P.

There are plenty of others, here is one:

http://antbikemike.wordpress.com/bicycle-catagories/boston-roadster/

[charliedid]

Interesting question. The quirky niche market by itself is too small for him to survive by it alone, which is what he tries to do. I could understand having a small selection of quirky stuff not found anywhere, but to try to make it 50% or more of his business is just suicide. I know this came up once before on another forum, and one of the members said he had a benefactor that was pumping money into his operation because this person believed strongly in quirky stuff, maybe the benefactor is no longer around? Or maybe the story isn't true? I don't know. But he has great bikes, and even though those bikes are for a different crowd that crowd is larger then the crowd for ugly, quirky, and just plain weird looking saddle and handlebar bags; and those bags won't even hold up for touring, yet his bikes are made for touring. Even a few models of his bikes are quirky, like the double top tube models, who really needs a frame with dual top tubes? It's just weird. But I think if he wants to sell touring bikes then he needs to offer touring bags that will survive the real world of touring and not for some sunny Sunday ride to have a picnic somewhere. Some of clothing is just nerdy, although he has gotten a little be away from being overly nerdy in the last couple of years.

Quirky

[markie]

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=quirky&page=2

[fourflys]

Must... resist... Rivendell flamewar...


+1...

[David Kirk]

I'm sorry and I don't want to sound like a crackpot conspiracy guy but why is it that someone with 2 posts to their name started this thread. When I see something like this I wonder who they are and what axe they have to grind.

Now I could be way the hell off base and I sincerely apologize if I'm out of line but I just needed to say this. With any luck the OP'er is sincere and just happens to be new here.

Dave

[Kontact]

Umm. You guys talk like the double top-tube bike was invented by G.P.

There are plenty of others, here is one:

http://antbikemike.wordpress.com/bicycle-catagories/boston-roadster/
I would submit that no one lately has invented much of anything that wasn't done several times before in bikes. But he is the one promoting them now, and I'm just curious if there is any reason for liking them that isn't just aesthetic.

[Chance]

A second top tube makes the frame stiffer in torsion but unfortunately also vertically. Probably not the best design since larger diameter tubes would be a more efficient way to accomplish the same.

[dave thompson]

I would submit that no one lately has invented much of anything that wasn't done several times before in bikes. But he is the one promoting them now, and I'm just curious if there is any reason for liking them that isn't just aesthetic.
My double top tube bike. Note also I also reverse engineered Kirk's Terraplane seatstays but unfortunately also reversed them.

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/3556/doubletoptube.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/88/doubletoptube.jpg/)

[Kontact]

My double top tube bike. Note also I also reverse engineered Kirk's Terraplane seatstays but unfortunately also reversed them.


Wow!

That's got to be 400mm of negative trail. How is it on mountain descents? ;)

[don compton]

My double top tube bike. Note also I also reverse engineered Kirk's Terraplane seatstays but unfortunately also reversed them.

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/3556/doubletoptube.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/88/doubletoptube.jpg/)
That bike needs some "handlebra".

[dave thompson]

Wow!

That's got to be 400mm of negative trail. How is it on mountain descents?

I dunno, not many descents here on the marina.

[bfd]

A second top tube makes the frame stiffer in torsion but unfortunately also vertically. Probably not the best design since larger diameter tubes would be a more efficient way to accomplish the same.

I can see a double top tube for a big frame like a 68cm or larger. In fact, Bernie Mikkelsen, one of the local builders here in the SF Bay Area, does that as I see a couple of really tall guys riding his bikes with double top tubes.

However, Grant has designed a double top tube into several of his frames that are as small as 56cm. That makes no sense and really makes the bikes look weird, strike that, let's just say it makes his bikes look "different:"

http://www.renaissancebicycles.com/gallery/?album=7&gallery=66

Good Luck!

[froze]

I'm sorry and I don't want to sound like a crackpot conspiracy guy but why is it that someone with 2 posts to their name started this thread. When I see something like this I wonder who they are and what axe they have to grind.

Now I could be way the hell off base and I sincerely apologize if I'm out of line but I just needed to say this. With any luck the OP'er is sincere and just happens to be new here.

Dave

Well I wonder about that too Dave, but then I thought, you, that's you Dave, were new once as was as all of us, so did all the posters that been here longer wonder about you too? Did they ask what ax did you to grind when you came aboard?

Just because a guy is new doesn't necessarily mean he has an ax to grind.

[jr59]

That bike needs some "handlebra".

Chain lube too! :p

[cat6]

The slickersack makes for a pretty sweet briefcase for those of you that commute. I realize that commenting on the actual sale and an item included in the sale is a bit off topic since it not about tubing or double top tubes but I figured I'd share.

[dbrk]

Hey everyone, Rivendell is doing fine. Trust me on this.

They can always do better and Grant is happy to reveal the workings of his company. As for their bikes, they are selling fine and since they come in batches it's a big capital outlay when they arrive, so it's good to sell some in advance.

[Chance]

Chain lube too! :p
That and lower gearing. What do they carry in such a large cargo basket that can be pedaled with such gearing; even on flats? :rolleyes:

[BumbleBeeDave]

Hey everyone, Rivendell is doing fine. Trust me on this.

They can always do better and Grant is happy to reveal the workings of his company. As for their bikes, they are selling fine and since they come in batches it's a big capital outlay when they arrive, so it's good to sell some in advance.

. . . and it's VERY nice to see your name here again. :)

BBD

[Chance]

Well I wonder about that too Dave, but then I thought, you, that's you Dave, were new once as was as all of us, so did all the posters that been here longer wonder about you too? Did they ask what ax did you to grind when you came aboard?

Just because a guy is new doesn't necessarily mean he has an ax to grind.
If anything he seems to be trying to help Rivendell by sending business in their direction. Maybe that’s against forum business rules but doesn’t seem overtly aggressive in any way as if he has an axe to grind with anyone. Unless he anticipated a quick slide into negative territory that would damage Rivendell. That’s stretching though. Don’t get Dave’s point. :confused:

[Bob Ross]

People can feel all sorts of things that don't have any measurable existence, too.
I'm not talking about Jesus.

Pretty sure palincss wasn't either. Unless "Jesus" is internet slang for "Perception Bias"?

Lots of opinions fly back & forth whenever these sort of "X Feels Like Y" debates pop up (where X = some material, or joinery method, etc., and Y = some descriptive variant on Laterally-Stiff-But-Vertically-Compliant). Often those opinions are provided by folks with extensive materials science backgrounds...but little framebuilding experience. Just as often, it's vice-versa. Mostly it's folks with neither, just lots of miles as a cycling enthusiast. And that's fine, anecdotal opinions are the data points of any comprehensive empirical study.

But they are incapable of authoritatively answering the question "Does It Feel Like Y Because Of X?" specifically because of the phenomenon palincss alludes to.

And until someone devises a safe & ethical way to perform double-blind ABX testing of bicycle frames, it will probably always remain that way.

[palincss]

I'm not talking about Jesus.

Are you just arguing, or do you also think that non-butted steel feels the same as thinner tubing?

My sole experiences with straight-gauge steel tubing are all gas-pipe bikes: Raleigh DL-1 roadster, 1964 Dunelt and all the 3 speeds and coasters I rode as a kid, and they're very different in feel to frames made with thinner gauge tubing.

However, I wasn't talking about Jesus or anything else to do with religion. Read this forum or VSalon and you'll see all kinds of heated discussion about features that can at best be described as "intangibles".

[palincss]

That bike needs some "handlebra".

That bike needs a new chain, too.

[goonster]

I think it is strange to air one's finances publicly
Strange for most, but part of the m.o. from the get-go for Grant to share all kinds of behind-the-scenes goings on.

[rugbysecondrow]

Strange for most, but part of the m.o. from the get-go for Grant to share all kinds of behind-the-scenes goings on.

Agreed

Grant = Rivendell...you can't separate the two now. Also, like it or not, he seems to say what he wants when he wants about what he wants. Some find it endearing, other arrogant, some might think it stupid. Regardless, it just is.

[David Kirk]

Well I wonder about that too Dave, but then I thought, you, that's you Dave, were new once as was as all of us, so did all the posters that been here longer wonder about you too? Did they ask what ax did you to grind when you came aboard?

Just because a guy is new doesn't necessarily mean he has an ax to grind.

I understand what you are saying and don't disagree. All of us were at one point brand new here. I was just wondering aloud about the choice of topic for a second post. It seems that in most cases a person will hang here and post on various topics before getting into anything touchy (for lack of a better term). It certainly is possible for a person's first or second post to be about a given company and NOT be a case of axe grinding but I think we've all seen folks with one or two posts to their name come in with an ulterior motive - they come in and talk good/bad about a company and then disappear. But like I said in my post - If I'm off base then I apologize.

About my first posts here and what my motive might have been - I don't think anyone questioned me at all but it might have happened. When I started posting here I wasn't even working in the bike biz. I was just a former Serotta employee who loved the brand and was able to answer questions about it's products. I was working as a water well driller and snowboard instructor and I'm pretty sure I never tried to sell anyone on my services or talked bad about another well driller :)...........I go to the water well drilling forum to do that!

Like I said - I apologize if I was off base or out of line.

dave

[BCS]

Hey everyone, Rivendell is doing fine. Trust me on this.

They can always do better and Grant is happy to reveal the workings of his company. As for their bikes, they are selling fine and since they come in batches it's a big capital outlay when they arrive, so it's good to sell some in advance.

I trust your info but can't help but wonder HOW with their current frame offerings

[Kontact]

My sole experiences with straight-gauge steel tubing are all gas-pipe bikes: Raleigh DL-1 roadster, 1964 Dunelt and all the 3 speeds and coasters I rode as a kid, and they're very different in feel to frames made with thinner gauge tubing.

However, I wasn't talking about Jesus or anything else to do with religion. Read this forum or VSalon and you'll see all kinds of heated discussion about features that can at best be described as "intangibles".
Actually, I wasn't describing intangibles, either. Most of the time when people pull out the engineering formulas, there is a considerable amount of reductionism going on. But a metal tube is more than its gross dimensions: there are lots of physical phenomena like spring rate and frequency that could be measured, but aren't on the radar of people trying to prove what a frame can or can't do.

I also think that a simple 8 tube frame is a much more complicated machine than people credit it as - you see that when people say that BB flex doesn't affect anything but the BB, but you can't twist the BB without the chainstays getting shorter, for instance.

Anyway, bicycles are not designed at NASA. We have only recently started to understand the steering principles of bikes or their real world dynamic properties. And a lot of that wouldn't matter if bikes had motors, but people are able to sense and harness minute variations in machine operation all the time - and we really don't have a good way of describing those tangible, but fine distinctions.

[ultraman6970]

My best custom made track bike was one made with straight gauge tubing :) We couldnt find columbus tubing at that moment so we just give it a go with 0.9 straight gauge tubing, saved a lot of dough too. My best track bike ever, like 250 grams heavier than a columbus made and a champion 1 one i had too but darn... I regret so much to have sold that one. Miss a lot my JunkNago!

[mister]

My best custom made track bike was one made with straight gauge tubing :) We couldnt find columbus tubing at that moment so we just give it a go with 0.9 straight gauge tubing, saved a lot of dough too. My best track bike ever, like 250 grams heavier than a columbus made and a champion 1 one i had too but darn... I regret so much to have sold that one. Miss a lot my JunkNago!

makes sense...

http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4121/4822187082_5a60a16295_b.jpg

[Kontact]

My best custom made track bike was one made with straight gauge tubing :) We couldnt find columbus tubing at that moment so we just give it a go with 0.9 straight gauge tubing, saved a lot of dough too. My best track bike ever, like 250 grams heavier than a columbus made and a champion 1 one i had too but darn... I regret so much to have sold that one. Miss a lot my JunkNago!
Straight gauge tubing isn't good or bad. It is different, and may be perfect for certain uses.

[daylate$short]

Grant needs to quit selling odd ball stuff that only appeals to a few quirky rich people. Some of the stuff he sells is completely useless for touring, it's just for looks...........

I think he needs to go more main stream and get away from so much of the small quirky niche market products and sell stuff that the real world of cycling would use.

But that's just my worthless and meaningless opinion.
Is it just me, or does that Grunden's Bike Poncho look like the Gorton's fisherman riding to work???? :confused: I can't imagine that being a big seller.
I do really like my MUSA pants though.
Hopefully this is just offbeat advertising campaign, and nothing more serious.

[Mike748]

I like Riv and a lot of Grant's quirky products. I'm glad they are around.

[Peter B]

<snip>

We have only recently started to understand the steering principles of bikes or their real world dynamic properties.

So designers and builders have just been bumping around in the dark for the last 100 years or so? Eisentraut, Della Santa, Sachs, Pegoretti, all just lucky?

[Chance]

So designers and builders have just been bumping around in the dark for the last 100 years or so? Eisentraut, Della Santa, Sachs, Pegoretti, all just lucky?
It’s not luck but trial and error doesn’t mean understanding why it works either. Just try lots of combinations and then copy the ones that work the way you want. You don’t have to be a builder to know that 73 degree HTA works pretty well for average size bikes. Or that 4.5 CM of fork rake works well too.

Just a guess that Kontact’s statement is directed more at understanding the underlying science behind why bike steering works.

For what it’s worth the same can be said about automotive suspension and steering. They’ve been building cars for over 100 years but it took a long time before engineers understood many principles. Some they still don’t fully understand.

[Kontact]

So designers and builders have just been bumping around in the dark for the last 100 years or so? Eisentraut, Della Santa, Sachs, Pegoretti, all just lucky?
Not at all. There's a difference between a craftsman understanding how to make a bike work, and a scientific predictive model that explains the physics of why it works.

I put salicilic acid on a planter's wort the other day. It is recommended by doctors, but no one currently understands why it works. Lot's of things are like that. And that's a good thing that people invented so many things before they understood why they were possible.

[eric007]

I have enjoyed ordering Riv's bags and odds and ends which I use on a nice lugged frame (or two) which are not Riv frames. I would miss the site if it went away. We all know a dozen places to read about vertically compliant and laterally stiff (or was it the other way around) carbon. Riv may be a somewhat retro-grouch brand, but I must not be the only one around with an inner retro-grouch.


P.S. I confess to being someone with a low post-count. I'll try to hurry up and post another couple hundred or two before I say something untoward. :)

[SamIAm]

I'm a huge fan of their Granpa's soap and I have a Homer Hilsen that has served me well on a number of tours. My wife LOVES her Saluki as well.

And if the Roadeo was priced a couple hundred dollars cheaper, I wouldn't hesitate.

Their customer service is top notch and I kind of like their quirkiness. I think they will be around for the long term and I think its a good thing.

In most cases, its not a good idea to even intimate that financial issues are at hand, but when you have brand like Rivendell with its loyal quirky following, I think its ok.

[Kirk Pacenti]

And if the Roadeo was priced a couple hundred dollars cheaper, I wouldn't hesitate.



^^^ This. Great looking bike with a couple features largely unavailable on production bicycles. I like it a lot.

Cheers,
KP

[J.Greene]

I'll happily pay a few extra bucks to order from Riv. Many of the parts like the $32 technomic stem above than can now be cheekily sourced from newer internet vendors would be long gone if GP didn't keep the candle lit while other's were selling DIY kayaks and whatnot. Sure the business is quirky, but above all I appreciate his effort to run a conscientious business where employees matter.

[MadRocketSci]

It’s not luck but trial and error doesn’t mean understanding why it works either. Just try lots of combinations and then copy the ones that work the way you want. You don’t have to be a builder to know that 73 degree HTA works pretty well for average size bikes. Or that 4.5 CM of fork rake works well too.

Just a guess that Kontact’s statement is directed more at understanding the underlying science behind why bike steering works.

For what it’s worth the same can be said about automotive suspension and steering. They’ve been building cars for over 100 years but it took a long time before engineers understood many principles. Some they still don’t fully understand.

the automation of determining a system's equations of motion has come a long way. I bet if someone knew what they were doing they could use something like this:

http://www.motiongenesis.com/

to do the complete analysis. It is based on Kane's methods which are much simpler to implement than the classical Lagrange/Hamiltonian formulations <- geek speek

[palincss]

And if the Roadeo was priced a couple hundred dollars cheaper, I wouldn't hesitate.


Honestly, what's a couple of hundred dollars to you?

[mister]

yeah whats a couple hundred when you're already spending 2k

[Pete Serotta]

is that why you are asking? pete


Honestly, what's a couple of hundred dollars to you?