Questions re installing Campy UT crank

[bfd]

OK, I recently purchased a Campy Chorus compact carbon UT crank (say that 10x!) and have a few questions about installation:

1. the instructions says to use Loctite 222 when installing the bb cups into the bb shell. Can I use white lithium or Phil "green" grease instead?

2. the fixing bolt torque is listed as 42Nm/30.97 lb-lb if Loctite 222 is used or 35Nm/25.8 lb-ft if Loctite 222 is not available. I have an old Sears torque wrench that I use to torque my car wheels, so should I use grease on the fixing bolt before torquing?

Note, I'm usually in the grease metal to metal contact camp, but know there are those out there who believe in tightening bolts dry. Good Luck!

[thwart]

If it's an Italian threaded BB, consider teflon tape or Loctite 222; if it's English threaded good old grease works very well.

The issue is that the force of pedaling can loosen the driveside cup with Italian threading. There's surely a perfectly good reason for threading a BB that way... but it escapes me...

[bfd]

Thanks! Yes, my frame is an older Calfee with Italian threaded bb shell. I will look for Loctite 222, otherwise, I have teflon tape and will use that.

As for the reason why they threaded a bb this way, may be its just an Italian thing.....Good Luck!

[Dave]

Grease the cup threads and torque to 35Nm, whether English or Italian. Be sure that the BB faces are square to the threads and the BB shell width is in tolerance, before installing the cups.

The loctite product is only recommended when the cups are "hand tightened". You can't hand tighten the cups unless the factory applied thread locking material is removed.

Don't use loctite and tighten to 35Nm. Removal might be tough.

[bfd]

Grease the cup threads and torque to 35Nm, whether English or Italian. Be sure that the BB faces are square to the threads and the BB shell width is in tolerance, before installing the cups.

The loctite product is only recommended when the cups are "hand tightened". You can't hand tighten the cups unless the factory applied thread locking material is removed.

Don't use loctite and tighten to 35Nm. Removal might be tough.

Thanks Dave. The instructions says to "hand tightened" and use Loctite 222. The torquing instruction is for only the fixing bolt. Since I do have the Park ut cup tool, bbt-19, I can torque the cups to 35Nm.

Also, thanks for the tip on making sure the bb face is square and the shell width is within tolerance. Since I'm replacing my old Sweet Wings cups, left arm broke, I'm presuming the bb faces are square to the threads and the shell width is within tolerance. Then again, might be better to take it in to make sure. Good Luck!

[oldpotatoe]

OK, I recently purchased a Campy Chorus compact carbon UT crank (say that 10x!) and have a few questions about installation:

1. the instructions says to use Loctite 222 when installing the bb cups into the bb shell. Can I use white lithium or Phil "green" grease instead?

2. the fixing bolt torque is listed as 42Nm/30.97 lb-lb if Loctite 222 is used or 35Nm/25.8 lb-ft if Loctite 222 is not available. I have an old Sears torque wrench that I use to torque my car wheels, so should I use grease on the fixing bolt before torquing?

Note, I'm usually in the grease metal to metal contact camp, but know there are those out there who believe in tightening bolts dry. Good Luck!

1. DO NOT use loctite. Make sure the BB shell is prepped and use grease inside the shell and torque.

2. Grease the fixing bolt, use torque.

Lotsa grease inside the cups, around the bearings, tighten to torque.

The gig with the far superior Italian threading is the BB bearings in the RH cup precessed, turned/rotated lefty and loosened the RH cup but not really an issue for properly prepped frames and BB installed correctly.

They did Italian threading because it was traditional and cheaper since the tap went from one side thru to the other side, one tap...cheaper plus the shell as a little bigger ID and wider.

[ultraman6970]

In english BB I used grease and teflon tape, but u have to put the teflont tape in the right direction of will bulge (not sure about the word) big time.

For italian I used some thread locker from loctite, but not the super strong one. Cleaned the BB threads really well, then threaded a little bit of the cup in. Then I applied the thread locker thing almost all around, tightened the cup, wait overnight. 4 to 6 hours and done.

For the record even if the cup get lose a tiny bit u can go home np because the cup will move just a few threads and then can't go any further because the central bolt will keep everything in place, even the crankset doesnt feel lose at all as with old lose ball bearings. For the record I never got problems with an italian BB getting lose in any system, and back in the day I was not even using teflon tape or loctite but plain grease. Probably because my master builder always prepped the frames right and because pretty much once the BB was installed it was going to die with the frames.

Some people just have bad custom of changing headsets 6 or more times per year and BB taken apart even more times because they sell them. Frames can take abuse but in headsets and BBs is not a good idea to play that game too much.

[Bob Loblaw]

I use teflon tape AND grease (or anti-seize). Grease the BB shell threads and wind the tape around the cup threads. IME, that's the best way to keep the cups in place and quell the dreaded "mystery creak" that seems to haunt some carbon frames.

BL

[ultraman6970]

If the crankset was installed right the creak in my experience almost 95% all the time comes from the darn crankset bolts and not from the cups.

Take the bolts out, add some grease to the chainring bolt holes in the cranks and the chainrings, and tight the bolts really well.

[NateM]

Let me know if the Campy crank (is it 10 sp or 11?) rubs the driveside chainstay. I have a 97 Calfee with Italian thread like yours and use a FSA mega exo carbon crank,DA cups and the inner ring has 1.5mm clearance.Calfee has offered for a price to chop out the clearance needed for Campy but I have refrained for now.Let me know how it goes.Thanks,Nate Merrill

[wasfast]

You can always shim the drive side cup with off the shelf shims.

[Dave]

There is no difference in the Campy chainline that would cause the little ring to be closer to the chainstay. The chainline is the same 43.5mm as any other brand.

You can't shim a UT BB cup because it would change the width of the BB shell. The crank is designed to work with a total width that's within plus or minus .8mm from the nominal 68 or 70mm. If the width is much greater, the bearings would bind up because the wavy washer that preloads the bearings would be crushed flat.

If the frame is really made incorrectly and a shim is a must, then the left side of the shell would have to be faced to remove additional material to make the shimmed BB shell the correct width.

[bfd]

There is no difference in the Campy chainline that would cause the little ring to be closer to the chainstay. The chainline is the same 43.5mm as any other brand.

You can't shim a UT BB cup because it would change the width of the BB shell. The crank is designed to work with a total width that's within plus or minus .8mm from the nominal 68 or 70mm. If the width is much greater, the bearings would bind up because the wavy washer that preloads the bearings would be crushed flat.

If the frame is really made incorrectly and a shim is a must, then the left side of the shell would have to be faced to remove additional material to make the shimmed BB shell the correct width.

Yeah, we tried installing the Campy Chorus compact carbon ut crank today into my Calfee and it doesn't work. When we first installed the crank, the inner chainring hits the chainstay. We then added a 2mm spacer to the right side and got the clearance needed! We then installed the crankarms and it fits! But when we started tightening down the fixing bolt, the bearings bind. :mad:

At this point, I'm pretty depressed as I now have two bikes that are down and am left riding my POS "junker" (think Motiv brand) to work. For a commute, that's ok, as its one of those bikes that if anybody steals it, they're doing me a favor....

Where I'm hurting is that for anything longer than say 10 miles or so, its a pain. :crap:

I plan to give a couple of shops a call tomorrow it see if they have any ideas. I may also call Calfee.

Maybe I need to look into the FSA mega carbon. Does anyone know if a Sram or shimano compact crank might work? Otherwise, I have to dig up an old Edco square taper bb to use with an old shimano compact crank I have...:help:

[aoe]

Depending on how much clearance you need to clear that chainstay, have you considered running a triple? The innermost chainring will be smaller while pushing the larger chainrings further out. If you'd prefer a double then perhaps your shop can get you a 30 tooth inner chainring from a triple and compensate with a smaller rear cassette. I believe a triple is 110 bcd too.

The thing to think about is campy recommends no more than a 14 tooth delta between chainrings but not sure how that plays out in shifting performance real world. Just thinking out loud but I'm sure others can chime in on whether or not it'll work.

[Kontact]

Yeah, we tried installing the Campy Chorus compact carbon ut crank today into my Calfee and it doesn't work. When we first installed the crank, the inner chainring hits the chainstay. We then added a 2mm spacer to the right side and got the clearance needed! We then installed the crankarms and it fits! But when we started tightening down the fixing bolt, the bearings bind. :mad:

At this point, I'm pretty depressed as I now have two bikes that are down and am left riding my POS "junker" (think Motiv brand) to work. For a commute, that's ok, as its one of those bikes that if anybody steals it, they're doing me a favor....

Where I'm hurting is that for anything longer than say 10 miles or so, its a pain. :crap:

I plan to give a couple of shops a call tomorrow it see if they have any ideas. I may also call Calfee.

Maybe I need to look into the FSA mega carbon. Does anyone know if a Sram or shimano compact crank might work? Otherwise, I have to dig up an old Edco square taper bb to use with an old shimano compact crank I have...:help:
I really don't understand why this is happening. All Calfee frames are pretty modern, designed after double chainline was standardized to 43.5mm. If the bike would accept a 39 or 42 chainring inner before, why won't it accept a smaller 34 now?

[ultraman6970]

This will sound stupid ok? but are you sure the guys did not put non driver side cup in the driver side?? Since is italian threaded you can put the cups at any side of the BB, it will turn w/o any problem.

Assuming the cups are in the right place... IMO i dont see any problem putting a BB shim. The BB uses that spring washer that allows you like 3 mm (1.5 mm per side I believe it is) in case the BB shell is not between specs. As for the bearings binding?? U mean tight?? Well if the crankset is new and the BB is italian the Bearings are still tight. Campagnolo UT bearings dont turn as the old squared tapper lose balls BBs, in a matter of fact u dont get more than 1 or 2 turns outta new bearings. While riding is not even noticeable, so it is possible that all was ok with the washer u put in there.

I got the driver side of my UT crankset lose, went off like 3 mm that I thought was a lot, the crankset never felt lose or even felt that the chain line was off at all. I believe the clip and the spring washer did the trick big time.

Do this, put the shim, put the DS crank, put the clip, put the other side but this time dont put the sprint washer (just a test), tight it and pull the crankest to the sides, If it has some play to the sides then U have enough room and put the wavy washer.

This guy put shims because of another problem but is about the room u need tho... doesnt matter if you want to go left or right cup, from all the UT crankset i have and had, u have room for a shim.

http://roguemechanic.typepad.com/.a/6a00d834525fac69e20120a618d7c2970c-120wi

[oldpotatoe]

Yeah, we tried installing the Campy Chorus compact carbon ut crank today into my Calfee and it doesn't work. When we first installed the crank, the inner chainring hits the chainstay. We then added a 2mm spacer to the right side and got the clearance needed! We then installed the crankarms and it fits! But when we started tightening down the fixing bolt, the bearings bind. :mad:

At this point, I'm pretty depressed as I now have two bikes that are down and am left riding my POS "junker" (think Motiv brand) to work. For a commute, that's ok, as its one of those bikes that if anybody steals it, they're doing me a favor....

Where I'm hurting is that for anything longer than say 10 miles or so, its a pain. :crap:

I plan to give a couple of shops a call tomorrow it see if they have any ideas. I may also call Calfee.

Maybe I need to look into the FSA mega carbon. Does anyone know if a Sram or shimano compact crank might work? Otherwise, I have to dig up an old Edco square taper bb to use with an old shimano compact crank I have...:help:

I sold a lot of Calfees when his BB was ITL and had this problem with MANY cranks(small ring hitting the RH stay). These were in the square taper era and the 'fix' was a longer BB spindle. Craig liked WorldClass BBs and often built a Campagnolo crank using a WorldClass BB of 107/8mm length, to give clearance. DA with a 107 or 110mm BB. Craig refused to ovalized the RH stay or do something else to fix this issue. He then went to ENG BB shells and offset them to the right quite a bit to allow clearance. Look from below of one of these and you will see how far the BB shell is offset to the right.

A external cup BB on these frames will always have a problem, any of them.

'Maybe' a cross specific crank may work.

[bfd]

<This will sound stupid ok? but are you sure the guys did not put non driver side cup in the driver side?? Since is italian threaded you can put the cups at any side of the BB, it will turn w/o any problem>

I think we put the cups in the right side. When I open the packaging, one cup had a clip and the other cup had a wavy washer in it. I put the cup with the clip on the right/drive-side and the cup with the wavy washer on the left/non drive-side.

<Assuming the cups are in the right place... IMO i dont see any problem putting a BB shim. The BB uses that spring washer that allows you like 3 mm (1.5 mm per side I believe it is) in case the BB shell is not between specs.>

Can you identify the "spring washer?" Here's a link to Campy's 2010 technical documents. If you go to page 12, you see an exposed view of the crank and all the small parts:

http://www.campagnolo.com/repository/documenti/en/Spares10-A-010909.pdf

Do you mean part #OC-RE002?

The shim I used is a custom made 2mm spacer designed to fit onto an italian bb cup. Interestingly, I could not find any spacers or shim for italian cups, so an LBS I know had one made.


<As for the bearings binding?? U mean tight?? Well if the crankset is new and the BB is italian the Bearings are still tight. Campagnolo UT bearings dont turn as the old squared tapper lose balls BBs, in a matter of fact u dont get more than 1 or 2 turns outta new bearings. While riding is not even noticeable, so it is possible that all was ok with the washer u put in there.>

The problem is the more I tighten the fixing bolt, the tigher it was to turn the crank. I'm thinking what is happening is exact how Dave describes it:

"The crank is designed to work with a total width that's within plus or minus .8mm from the nominal 68 or 70mm. If the width is much greater, the bearings would bind up because the wavy washer that preloads the bearings would be crushed flat."

If the wavy washer is getting crush, then the bearings will bind up.

<I got the driver side of my UT crankset lose, went off like 3 mm that I thought was a lot, the crankset never felt lose or even felt that the chain line was off at all. I believe the clip and the spring washer did the trick big time.>

One thing I just realize is that we forgot to put the clip (part #OC-RE001) into the cup. I don't see how it keeps the bearings from binding, but perhaps that's the problem?! :confused:

<Do this, put the shim, put the DS crank, put the clip, put the other side but this time dont put the sprint washer (just a test), tight it and pull the crankest to the sides, If it has some play to the sides then U have enough room and put the wavy washer.>

Again, I'm not sure what is the "sprint washer?"

<This guy put shims because of another problem but is about the room u need tho... doesnt matter if you want to go left or right cup, from all the UT crankset i have and had, u have room for a shim.>

Thanks, I need to investigate it further. Good Luck!

http://roguemechanic.typepad.com/.a/6a00d834525fac69e20120a618d7c2970c-120wi[/QUOTE]

[Dave]

There is NO room for BB cup shims unless the BB shell is undersized and the total width, with the shim, is no more than 68.8mm for English BBs or 70.8mm for Italian. If those limits are exceeded, you are overloading the bearings at the minimum or they will bind completely, in the worst case.

The wave washer is only about 3mm tall in it's free state and it's .63mm thick. That only leaves 2.37mm of free space and all of that amount is not up for use. The wave washer is not supposed to be flattened. It's supposed to supply a preload pressure somewhere in the 20-60 pound range, based on the measurements that I've taken, unloaded and loaded with a free weight.

The "sprint" washer is a typo, meaning spring washer. Same as the wavy washer.

[Don49]

Sorry to resurrect an old thread, but I am potentially facing the same issue as bfd.

My favorite bike is an older Calfee Tetra Pro, likely with Italian BB threading, and I'd like to upgrade to a Campy UT crankset. Just wondering if the OP found a solution to getting a UT crank to work on his Calfee.

I'm considering having Calfee refinish & paint my frame, but wondering if that would be a mistake given that (as oldpotatoe said) "A external cup BB on these frames will always have a problem, any of them."

What do you think?

[bfd]

Sorry to resurrect an old thread, but I am potentially facing the same issue as bfd.

My favorite bike is an older Calfee Tetra Pro, likely with Italian BB threading, and I'd like to upgrade to a Campy UT crankset. Just wondering if the OP found a solution to getting a UT crank to work on his Calfee.

I'm considering having Calfee refinish & paint my frame, but wondering if that would be a mistake given that (as oldpotatoe said) "A external cup BB on these frames will always have a problem, any of them."

What do you think?

OK, its been awhile, but when I talked to Calfee, they said that shaving down the right/drive side chainstay to accommodate the UT crank wouldn't be too expensive - somewhere around $80. However, they said that to apply a "new clearcoat" would cost around $400! Now, I don't know if that was just the shaved area (hope not) or the complete frame. I told them this "repair" is probably more than the frame is worth....I'm now using a square taper crank/bb and am fine with it.

As to whether the external cup bb will have problems, that's OP's issue and something he should address. Good Luck!