would you order a tig welded frame?

[fogrider]

seems like tig would be the way to go for a s3 frame but it seems like tig is not in favor for road bikes. sure brazing and lugs look retro cool but are there fans of tig?

[saab2000]

My Colorado III is TIG welded and is a superb bicycle. Nothing wrong at all with TIG welding.

[cat6]

I think all Moots are TIG welded, and I've never heard a bad thing about their bikes or welds. I own a Rock Lobster, also TIG welded, but steel. The welds aren't sloppy but nowhere near those of Moots.

If you're going custom for fit I don't think you'll hear a bad word about TIG, if you're looking for aesthetic I think fillet or lugged is what you want. I'm sure some framebuilders will comment with much more technical info, but looks aside TIG would be your bang for the buck steel frame.

[Kontact]

There have been some recent threads indicating that there are many TIG'd steel fans. It's probably the most practical method for incredibly thin, air hardening tubing like S3.

I don't much care for TIG on steel - it is usually less attractive than Ti welds (to me). And the big names price it like much more labor intensive methods.

If I wanted super light steel, I'd probably choose S3 - great tubeset. But if I was spending $1500 or more on a steel frame, I'd choose something that goes better with lugs or fillets and is flashier looking.


IMHO and all that.

[JLP]

Of course. Most of my bikes are lugged, but I love my Gunnar.

[navclbiker]

My Serotta CDA has the most pristine welds of any TIG bike out there. It's beautiful and I'm in love with it!

[Mtmooradian]

Not true....Newer tube sets don't lose tensile strength when tig welded. Lugged and brazed frames were joined that way because welding weaken the tube set. A tig welded steel bike is a great fit for the road because you can build it lighter than if you had to uses the lugs and still get the great steel ride.

[Kontact]

Not true....Newer tube sets don't lose tensile strength when tig welded. Lugged and brazed frames were joined that way because welding weaken the tube set. A tig welded steel bike is a great fit for the road because you can build it lighter than if you had to uses the lugs and still get the great steel ride.
What's "not true"?

[cat6]

I think what he's saying is "not true" is that the OP heard TIG is not good for road bikes.

[Kontact]

I think what he's saying is "not true" is that the OP heard TIG is not good for road bikes.
I thought the OP said "not in favor". I didn't read anything about tensile strength in his or anyone else's post.

[Dekonick]

My Bedford Tourer is tig welded... and it performs just fine in Paptasco State Park - with a fat ass 42 year old wielding a big smile.

On road, off road, and everywhere in between.

It isn't how it is made, but by whom.

Also - aren't a lot of mountain bikes tig aluminum frames? Unsure here... but there are sure a LOT of toothpaste welds on mtn bikes...

[fogrider]

I don't much care for TIG on steel - it is usually less attractive than Ti welds (to me). And the big names price it like much more labor intensive methods.

If I wanted super light steel, I'd probably choose S3 - great tubeset. But if I was spending $1500 or more on a steel frame, I'd choose something that goes better with lugs or fillets and is flashier looking.


IMHO and all that.
so now I'm checking out all these websites looking at the welds...I can't get to my bikes for a few days and I only have one steel bike that welded (I also have an al and a scandium tig welded bike). the welds on the website look very tight and clean. I know al welds tend to be big and ti welds smaller but steel tig welds once painted look pretty clean. sure lugs are flashy with cutouts and trim but tig on steel looks clean. just seems like there is lots of lust for lugs and not so much for tig.

[Steve in SLO]

My Speedvagen is TIGed
My De Salvo is TIGed
My Marcelo is TIGed
My Strong is TIGed
My Anvil is TIGed
My Moots is TIGed
My Steelman is TIGed

If TIG is not in favor, I'm not sure I want to be "in".

[Kontact]

so now I'm checking out all these websites looking at the welds...I can't get to my bikes for a few days and I only have one steel bike that welded (I also have an al and a scandium tig welded bike). the welds on the website look very tight and clean. I know al welds tend to be big and ti welds smaller but steel tig welds once painted look pretty clean. sure lugs are flashy with cutouts and trim but tig on steel looks clean. just seems like there is lots of lust for lugs and not so much for tig.
Steel tig welds are generally even smaller than Ti ones - both of which are much smaller than aluminum welds.

It is a perfectly satisfactory building method - strong and light. Virtually every mountain bike for the first 10 years of the sport were tig'd steel.

My comments were more value statements. There are some crazy expensive tig'd steel frames these days. But if you have a private conversation with a builder who's capable with all three steel joining methods he or she will likely tell you that tig is a much faster and more expedient joining method than lugs or fillets. I've talked to builders who use tig to build prototypes for what they will later build by brazing.

I'd just compare it to building bikes in Asia - it's less expensive, so it should make the bike less expensive for the consumer. So my opinion is that expensive steel bikes should be made in a more expensive manner. Any of us could ride for the rest of our lives on a $500 frame, so I think we do spend some of our frameset money for artistry, not just tube selection.

Tig steel is different than tig Ti or tig aluminum. They don't really compare that well. Different restrictions and flexibilities with each.

Opinion, opinion, opinion.

[gearguywb]

The difference between tig and lugged construction is in the eye of the beholder. I doubt you will find anyone that can tell you that they ride "different".

Out of the herd in the garage, 80% are tigged. Never crosses my mind when choosing what to ride.

[Ti Designs]

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

[William]

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Inigo Montoya: Hello. My name is Inigo Montoya. You tigged my frame. Prepare to die.

Kelly Bedford: Stop saying that!

Vizzini: HE TIG WELDED A FRAME? INCONCEIVABLE!




William

[SpeedyChix]

I'm happy with the frames I've ridden that used any of these: lugs, brazing or TIG.
Smooth welds abound:
Steel / TIG: Quiring (CX) and DeSalvo (road)
Ti TIG: Eriksen (pic is of mtb, but the road bike looks the same)

http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t137/RiverKnife/Quiring/P1010624-1.jpg

http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t137/RiverKnife/DeSalvo%2010th/P1010954-1.jpg

http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t137/RiverKnife/Forum%20Help%20Images/IMGP0556-1.jpg

[oldpotatoe]

seems like tig would be the way to go for a s3 frame but it seems like tig is not in favor for road bikes. sure brazing and lugs look retro cool but are there fans of tig?

'Not in favor'??

Sell lotsa Waterfords and Gunnars...vast majority(like all but 2 this year) were tig welded. Best way to join this and most other, modern steel tubesets.

Not as pretty as lugs but today, that's all lugs are, pretty, no functional advantage.

[saab2000]

I have a used Pacenti coming my way :hello: :banana: and it's TIG welded. Really looking forward to that one!

[rugbysecondrow]

seems like tig would be the way to go for a s3 frame but it seems like tig is not in favor for road bikes. sure brazing and lugs look retro cool but are there fans of tig?

Look at my signature space below, three Bedford TIG frames, all three different and all good looking in their own way. All are great riding bikes, that is due to Bedford and not how the tubes were joined.


Inigo Montoya: Hello. My name is Inigo Montoya. You tigged my frame. Prepare to die.

Kelly Bedford: Stop saying that!

Vizzini: HE TIG WELDED A FRAME? INCONCEIVABLE!




William


Funny.

My Speedvagen is TIGed
My De Salvo is TIGed
My Marcelo is TIGed
My Strong is TIGed
My Anvil is TIGed
My Moots is TIGed
My Steelman is TIGed

If TIG is not in favor, I'm not sure I want to be "in".

Nice!

[witcombusa]

'Not in favor'??

Sell lotsa Waterfords and Gunnars...vast majority(like all but 2 this year) were tig welded. Best way to join this and most other, modern steel tubesets.

Not as pretty as lugs but today, that's all lugs are, pretty, no functional advantage.

Isn't that reason enough?

[DRZRM]

Rosie's TIG'ed Zanc CX frame is the hotness, and my incoming Zanc 29er will be TIG'ed as well.

http://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum/attachments/f11/36517d1320243938-zanconato-cycles-imag0581-jpg

[moose8]

I've got a Ted Wojcik tig welded mountain bike frame, and the welds are pretty much invisible. I haven't seen a bike with better looking welds, but then again, I'm sure there are lots of nice ones out there, and I have no idea if it's just an aesthetic thing or fulfills any function.

[cmg]

Had a Curtlo S3 frame. the welds looked perfect.

[witcombusa]

perspective...

[Dekonick]

A good tig weld can look as organic and clean as a filet brazed joint. Lugs are beautiful as well, but I don't think there is any functional advantage (other than making it easier to replace a damaged tube) is there?

[fiamme red]

A good tig weld can look as organic and clean as a filet brazed joint.Only when it's covered by a thick coat of paint.

[rePhil]

I watched a tigged downtube being replaced during a visit to the Marinoni factory. They told me they could replace a tigged tube easier than lugged.


A good tig weld can look as organic and clean as a filet brazed joint. Lugs are beautiful as well, but I don't think there is any functional advantage (other than making it easier to replace a damaged tube) is there?

[Bob Ross]

It isn't how it is made, but by whom.

^^^This. I have a Carl Strong that's TIG-welded steel, but frankly Carl could have made that bike out of puke-welded offal and I wouldn't care as long as it rode & looked as good as this bike does.

[fogrider]

'Not in favor'??

Sell lotsa Waterfords and Gunnars...vast majority(like all but 2 this year) were tig welded. Best way to join this and most other, modern steel tubesets.

Not as pretty as lugs but today, that's all lugs are, pretty, no functional advantage.
see what sean has to say... http://2012.handmadebicycleshow.com/exhibitor/soulcraft/

[pdmtong]

Arent all the SV's tig'd?

[rwsaunders]

My Speedvagen is TIGed
My De Salvo is TIGed
My Marcelo is TIGed
My Strong is TIGed
My Anvil is TIGed
My Moots is TIGed
My Steelman is TIGed

If TIG is not in favor, I'm not sure I want to be "in".

+1

[Joachim]

I like both for a road frame. My Spectrum will be TIG since its Ti and my Anderson will be lugged with Spirit and S3 tubes. Yes, Dave Anderson builds lugged S3. I think its an aesthetic preference and has nothing to do with performance. Doug Fattic says lugged can be lighter than TIG. There is a thread on it.

[Pete Serotta]

from my personal experince over 20 years. Bought SEROTTA CDA, BEDFORD, SEROTTA TI AND I have never seen a ti not tig welded. i personally can not tell a difference in rides between a serotta tig and a csi serotta. yeah the looks of a lugged steel is beautiful and classic.

please just ride the one you like and let others do the same. THANKS Pete

The difference between tig and lugged construction is in the eye of the beholder. I doubt you will find anyone that can tell you that they ride "different".

Out of the herd in the garage, 80% are tigged. Never crosses my mind when choosing what to ride.

[pavel]

my CdA and my Colorado TG are welded. I think lugged looks nicer, but I dont have a lugged bike that rides as nice as my CdA.

[Ahneida Ride]

It ain't about the method of tube attachment.

It's about the builder. tube selection, drafting process, build quality.

and yes .... there are guys out there that can produce
Fillet like Tig welds. So the aesthetic aspect is also covered.

[Kontact]

It ain't about the method of tube attachment.

It's about the builder. tube selection, drafting process, build quality.

and yes .... there are guys out there that can produce
Fillet like Tig welds. So the aesthetic aspect is also covered.
So, you would say that the amount of labor involved is unimportant when considering price?

I know there is an undercurrent of "don't put the tig guys down" on this board, but I'd really like to give the guys who take 3 times longer building frames their due.

When we say that a TIG Bedford or IF (for instance) is just as "good" as a lugged Kirk or Spectrum (for instance), isn't that selling Kirk and Spectrum a little short? I'll give all of them credit for design, tube selection and production quality. But one frame type takes a wider variety of skills and more time to build. Is there no value in that extra labor?

And if we don't value labor itself anymore, is that the reason most people ride Chinese factory bikes, or is that somehow different than this kind of relativism?

[dave thompson]

So, you would say that the amount of labor involved is unimportant when considering price?

I know there is an undercurrent of "don't put the tig guys down" on this board, but I'd really like to give the guys who take 3 times longer building frames their due.

When we say that a TIG Bedford or IF (for instance) is just as "good" as a lugged Kirk or Spectrum (for instance), isn't that selling Kirk and Spectrum a little short? I'll give all of them credit for design, tube selection and production quality. But one frame type takes a wider variety of skills and more time to build. Is there no value in that extra labor?

And if we don't value labor itself anymore, is that the reason most people ride Chinese factory bikes, or is that somehow different than this kind of relativism?
Man, you sure made a stretch there. I don't see how one could possibly read a 'put down' into any of this. Just because one method of joinery may as "good" as the other doesn't in any way diminish the effort of the other. It's merely different.

[rugbysecondrow]

So, you would say that the amount of labor involved is unimportant when considering price?

I know there is an undercurrent of "don't put the tig guys down" on this board, but I'd really like to give the guys who take 3 times longer building frames their due.

When we say that a TIG Bedford or IF (for instance) is just as "good" as a lugged Kirk or Spectrum (for instance), isn't that selling Kirk and Spectrum a little short? I'll give all of them credit for design, tube selection and production quality. But one frame type takes a wider variety of skills and more time to build. Is there no value in that extra labor?

And if we don't value labor itself anymore, is that the reason most people ride Chinese factory bikes, or is that somehow different than this kind of relativism?


Sure there is value in that labor, which is why a TIG Bedford/Strong is considerable less to purchase than a lugged premium Kirk or Bedford. Lets compare apples to apples.

And yes, I think a lugged Bedford and a TIG Bedford would be just as good to ride, but maybe not as good for some to look at. For me, I like the utility of a bike, so TIG bike is great. If I were to get another, not sure if it would be a lugged Bedford or a TIG TI Bedford...hmmm.

[rePhil]

Interesting conversation as most of us posters are not framebuilders. It would be interesting to hear what builders that both tig and gas weld have to say.It's a different skillset for sure especially when you add using a foot to the equation
Good miters are important,more so on a tig. Plus the welds are exposed and there to see. I have owned a few lugged bikes, but lately I prefer tigged. If we are talking ti then tigged it is.

[corsaspeciale]

Yes i would and this spring it will be a new Rock Lobster made for light touring-rough road-comm. special single speed.

[Smiley]

I have Tig, Lugged and Fillett brazed and they are ride wonderfully and in the hands of the right builder will do the same for you. Me likes the fillet brazed frame the best from a looks perspective.

Rugby I gotta Tig Ti bike with your name on it now :)

[Bob Ross]

So, you would say that the amount of labor involved is unimportant when considering price?

This reminds me of the joke about the homeowner whose AC power goes out, so he panics and calls a licensed electrician. Electrician comes over, looks at the breaker box for 3 seconds, throws a switch, and power comes back on.

Then the electrician hands the homeowner an invoice for $100.

Homeowner freaks out. "A hundred dollars? For what? All you did was throw one switch!"

Electrician calmly takes the invoice back, crumples it up & throws it in the trash. Then he writes up a new invoice; this one is itemized:

Throwing switch - $1.00
Knowing which switch to throw - $99.00

[martinrjensen]

What would lead you to say that TIG welding is not in favor or roadies? I'm really curious as to this.seems like tig would be the way to go for a s3 frame but it seems like tig is not in favor for road bikes. sure brazing and lugs look retro cool but are there fans of tig?

[rounder]

from my personal experince over 20 years. Bought SEROTTA CDA, BEDFORD, SEROTTA TI AND I have never seen a ti not tig welded. i personally can not tell a difference in rides between a serotta tig and a csi serotta. yeah the looks of a lugged steel is beautiful and classic.

please just ride the one you like and let others do the same. THANKS Pete

Same here. I have a tigged Serotta III and Cannondale F700 and also have lugged Serotta nhx and K. Bedford lugged bikes.

They all ride the same for what they are. But, to me the lugged bikes are more beautiful. It is like the builder is making a personal statement saying that this is me and this is what i do...hope you like it.

[Elefantino]

Two words:

Anthony. Maietta.

Dig it. (http://www.maiettacycling.com/Maietta/Maietta_Cycling_Home.html)

[fogrider]

What would lead you to say that TIG welding is not in favor or roadies? I'm really curious as to this.

http://2012.handmadebicycleshow.com/exhibitor/soulcraft/

[cmg]

I'm in the fortunate position of owning both a Colorado III and a Coeur D Acier. Dig the clean welds and they ride beautifully. No photos of the d Acier, it's a candy apple red as they should all be.

[wooly]

I just ordered a tig'd geekhouse. Should be sweeeeet

[crankles]

[QUOTE=Steve in SLO]My Speedvagen is TIGed
My De Salvo is TIGed
My Marcelo is TIGed
My Strong is TIGed
My Anvil is TIGed
My Moots is TIGed
My Steelman is TIGed

Hot Damn....A man after my own heart.
Currently, Every steel bike in my garage is TIGed...speedvagens, Alliance, Steelman, IF.

I'm a bauhaus kinda guy. My bikes are for racing and I like it when the builder has lots of tubing shapes to choose from. The speedvagen is a great example. S3 bidirectional downtube, teardrop top tube, swaging madness all around. Hard to do within the confines of lugs.

Now that being said, There's a long list of lugged frames I wouldn't mind getting my hands on....

[tannhauser]

If you're worried about how the tubes are fastened you're worrying about the wrong thing.

[Sandy]

from my personal experince over 20 years. Bought SEROTTA CDA, BEDFORD, SEROTTA TI AND I have never seen a ti not tig welded. i personally can not tell a difference in rides between a serotta tig and a csi serotta. yeah the looks of a lugged steel is beautiful and classic.

please just ride the one you like and let others do the same. THANKS Pete

My first Serotta was a 1997 CSI with the F1 fork. I have a 2008 CDA with the F3 fork. The wheel sets are different also, as are the tires. Ceramic Open Pro wheels on the CSI and hand built wheels, by Jeremy, on the CDA. 700x23 CSI tires and 700X25 CDA tires, at considerably lower psi. Hence, it might not even be reasonable to compare the CSI to the CDA. However, I found a remarkable difference in the ride.

The CSI seemed to ride with the bike not seeming to lose contact with the riding surface (although it does), with the front end (F1 fork) "glued to the ground" and excellent balance between the front and rear ends of the bike. The bike communicated stability, very efficient transfer of pedal input into forward motion, and an attitude of "I will do precisely what you want me to, but please don't hurry me doing it." The CDA seems much livelier and lighter- a different feel- more like my Ottrott than like The CSI I had. It also was stable and responsive, but it seemingly did it all a bit quicker.....but also seems as if You have to be "on top of it" a bit more than the CSI. I found a significant difference in the two bikes.


Sandy

[bwest]

Tig looks pretty clean when done right.

http://www.sopwamtos.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/frame-BB-welds-large.jpg
http://www.sopwamtos.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/frame-seattube-welds-large.jpg

[CaptStash]

The CSI seemed to ride with the bike not seeming to lose contact with the riding surface, with the front end (F1 fork) "glued to the ground" and excellent balance between the front and rear ends of the bike. The bike communicated stability, very efficient transfer of pedal input into forward motion, and an attitude of "I will do precisely what you want me to, but please don't hurry me doing it." The CDA seems much livelier and lighter- a different feel- more like my Ottrott than like The CSI I had. It also was stable and responsive, but it seemingly did it all a bit quicker.....but also seems as if You have to be "on top of it" a bit more than the CSI. I found a significant difference in the two bikes.


Sandy

Fascinating stuff Sandy. I have often remarked on the large differences in the way the few bikes I have ride. I have always assumed that the geometry had more to do with the "quick" feel v. the "stuck to the ground" feel. My old Felt and present Guru both have that quick don't look away or it'll eat you alive ride, whereas my IF Crown Jewel handles beautifully but feels like it rides on rails. But I am comparing different materials, whereas the two bikes you describe are both steel. How much of the difference you felt do you suppose comes from geometry?

Stash....

[Sandy]

Fascinating stuff Sandy. I have often remarked on the large differences in the way the few bikes I have ride. I have always assumed that the geometry had more to do with the "quick" feel v. the "stuck to the ground" feel. My old Felt and present Guru both have that quick don't look away or it'll eat you alive ride, whereas my IF Crown Jewel handles beautifully but feels like it rides on rails. But I am comparing different materials, whereas the two bikes you describe are both steel. How much of the difference you felt do you suppose comes from geometry?

Stash....

I would think very little comes from the geometry, as Smiley made the geometry specs/fit/choice of a few parts, so the bikes would be very close in geometry. As I recall, the tube sets are different in the CSI and the CDA, but I doubt that means much, nor do I think (Not that I am qualified to even comment on this) that the way of joining the tubes means anything. The CSI was lugged and the CDA tig welded and I would think that would have minimal effect if at all. I would think the tires, the psi, and the rims would possibly have the largest effect, but then again, I am not qualified to really comment on such. I used 700x23 tires at reasonably high psi on the CSI and 700x25 tires on the CDA with the f 95-97 psi and rear 105-107 psi.

I believe the frameset of the CSI weighs more than that of the CDA- I would think the F1 fork with its steel steerer tube and the "older" tubeset would weigh more.

I would be interested in what builders would say about tig welding/brazed tubing/lugs. I believe, as said above, that other than aesthetics and time involved/expertise/skill sets in producing the bikes, the manner of joining the tubes would mean almost nothing in the ride.


Sandy

[Doug Fattic]

I'm a builder that can do lugged, fillet brazed and tigged steel. I can also do tigged titanium (there isn't a convenient alternative although it has been brazed in special circumstances and can be adhesive bonded). I don't do aluminum (that requires an AC welder and probably treatment after welding). Bike riders tend to fall into two groups where one is mostly concerned about the performance and ride qualities (with maybe some concession to looks with how it is painted) and the other wants looks along with performance. I definitely belong in the last category for my main ride. It was a revelation to me when I got a Hetchins in 1969. It was one of their simplest lug designs and it didn't have curly stays but I sure enjoyed having a bicycle that was attractive as well as functional. After that I've always judged a frame on the quality of the shape and filing done on the lugs.

So I'm always going to prefer a lugged frame but I can understand how this isn't important to everyone. In other posts, I've explained how a tig welded frame is almost certainly going to weigh more than a lugged frame (although it could be made lighter its just not likely). Joints have to be reinforced somehow and the easiest way is to use heavier head tubes for example. But the difference is probably negligible in any case. I also understand Kontact's point about the value of frame based on how fast it can be made. I can make a tig welded frame so much faster than a lugged frame (if I properly file the lugs) without the $150+ expense of lugs and silver. Actually I can a tig frame a lot faster than I can put on a complex paint job. Because of that I think of a tigged frame as being "cheaper" than a lugged or fillet brazed one.

I'm not so sure there is no difference in ride quality between the different ways of joining. I don't know of any reports that have been made public on the subject. It is too expensive to do that kind of testing where everything is all the same expect for the joining method. There is lots of speculation and logic - along with qualities we know about various methods - can lead us to assume it is true there is no decreeable difference but it is not proven. I have an antidotal story on this subject that casts doubt that there is absolutely no difference. I had a customer that ordered a fancy stainless steel lugged frame. It required a lot of detailed work and a complex paint job and I could see that the deadline for it to be finished so he could ride it on a cross state ride would come before I was satisfied that everything be done as well as possible. My solution was to quickly tig weld a frame together for his use until I could finish the fancy frame. I used the same tubing wall thickness although the tig frame was Reynolds 525 – their least expensive butted non heat treated tubing. There were some other minor differences as well including one having a "hellenic" triple triangle seat stay attachment while the other was a fastback to the binder bolt. Also it is possible that the butt lengths of the tubes were different and the miters might have been in a different place on the butts. In any case when he came back from his tour, I took the tig bike out on a nice ride and after swapping the same parts over to the lugged frame rode it again. It was obvious to me they had noticeably different ride qualities (I liked the lugged one better). I didn't say anything about my impressions to my customer and later asked him if he recognized any difference in the say they rode and he said he did notice quite a difference too. I might add that someone might think I was more careless in putting together the tigged frame but I'm never careless with any detail on a frame that has my name on the down tube so that wouldn't have been the factor. Of course I could use the same example to conclude that tubing of the same diameter and wall thickness but made differently can have different ride characteristics as well. Theorists will say they shouldn't be any difference.

[Sandy]

Thanks for your wonderful detailed descriptive response.


1. Is it possible that the difference you and your customer noted was the difference between the stainless steel versus the Reynolds 525 tubing and not the lugged versus the tig welded build?

2. You spent a great deal of time/energy/focus on building the "fancy stainless steel lugged frame". Is it possible that part of the difference you felt was a psychological one, a function of what you built, with the desire for the frame to be precisely what your customer wanted? And his perception of the difference being partially a psychological one based on his desire to get that "perfect" bike? Does that even make sense? I have wondered about the emotional aspect of a custom built bike. I have often read people saying that the custom bike they just had built is so much faster and so much a better climber than their previous bikes. I wonder how much of that is reality and how much emotion.


Thanks again. Great response.


Sandy

[Doug Fattic]

If I was to guess (and really that is all one can do) my impression is that the tubing was the primary contributor to the difference in ride quality. I think this can be attributed mostly to the differences in the alloys and treatment of the metal but the butt lengths (how long is the thinner center section) and were the miters were placed on the butts (how long are the thick parts on each end) can also contribute to differences in ride quality. I also wouldn't discount how a "Hellenic" seat stay attachment (where the seat stays pass the seat tube and attach under the top tube a couple of inches away from the seat lug) can influence the frame's characteristics. I'm not too crazy about how they look but have made a number of them and painted and ridden other builders frames made that way and have detected some ride characteristic differences. I would probably put jointing technique in 4th place on the guesses of why the 2 frames I made rode differently. But who can say? My goal is to keep an open mind about all variables because it is in the marketing interests by various builders or companies to either say what they do does make a difference or makes no difference at all. These proclamations – which are really just extensions of advertising and may or may not be truthful - are what become common knowledge in the bike world. But my goal as a framebuilding instructor is not to convince potential customers to buy my product or increase my profit margins but rather pass on the best information I can to future framebuilders.

While I think it is important to include psychological differences as one of the possible variables in the equation, I realized that possibility when I took them out for test rides so I don't think that is a factor. My undergraduate degree was in psychology and my master's in educational counseling so I'm pretty aware of the affect that can have. It would, however, certainly be one of the first arguments I would use if I disagreed with the results. I was surprised actually that there was so much difference. I wasn't truthfully expecting any.

One of the stories I like to tell my framebuilding class students is about a customer of mine that declared the frames I made him rode better than any of his other many frames (I'm getting to a point here that isn't about my wonderfulness so bear with me). He wanted to know what my secret was. I told him that I didn't think it was any one thing (like I can braze a joint in 3 minutes instead of 5) but rather an accumulation of all factors in which I try to do my very best. The miters are as accurate as possible, the alignment is as straight as one can make it, etc., etc. When each detail is the best that can be done for that individual's frame, better results will follow and be noticeable. This is a value I want them to take away from class. I promote this is because standardization (buying the same tubing in volume) and making things faster increase profits but probably erode ride quality. This tension between precision and individualization vs. speed and standardization = more profits always exists,

[Kontact]

If I was to guess (and really that is all one can do) my impression is that the tubing was the primary contributor to the difference in ride quality. I think this can be attributed mostly to the differences in the alloys and treatment of the metal but the butt lengths (how long is the thinner center section) and were the miters were placed on the butts (how long are the thick parts on each end) can also contribute to differences in ride quality.
Hey Doug,

Glad you chimed in. I think the first thing to stress here is that the difference between the ride of a lugged vs. tig'd frame may be different, but that doesn't mean one is better than the other. (Or between Ti and steel, or one brand Ti and another, etc).

That said, you give a lot of credit to the tube butt locations for the ride differences. But wouldn't a lug act a bit like a short, heavy butt on the end of the tubes? I would think lugs and gussets change how the end of the tubes interact under load.

[bicycletricycle]

maybe

[Ti Designs]

A brief look back:

In the 70's there were plenty of TIG welded bikes, you could find them in most department stores with names like Huffy. I still have a few books that called TIG welded construction lower quality. Then some crazy dudes started riding their balloon tire clunkers off road, a new version of cycling was born, and it didn't have lugs. I remember the first Fat Chance bike sent to the bike show, they thought there was no way anything like that would sell. They came home with enough orders to keep them busy for 3 months. Who knew? Titanium started with the Teledyne Titan, a bike known for breaking. Anyone else remember the Graphtech? How 'bout the first aluminum forks?

If we're going by old standards, your smart phone should weigh 20,000 pounds and take up two city blocks. Who knows, maybe in a few years tour riders will be riding on duct tape bikes...

[Pete Serotta]

I voted with my $$$$$ Serotta, has been making them for over a decade with a lifetime warranty.

[SPOKE]

A brief look back:

In the 70's there were plenty of TIG welded bikes, you could find them in most department stores with names like Huffy. I still have a few books that called TIG welded construction lower quality. Then some crazy dudes started riding their balloon tire clunkers off road, a new version of cycling was born, and it didn't have lugs. I remember the first Fat Chance bike sent to the bike show, they thought there was no way anything like that would sell. They came home with enough orders to keep them busy for 3 months. Who knew? Titanium started with the Teledyne Titan, a bike known for breaking. Anyone else remember the Graphtech? How 'bout the first aluminum forks?

If we're going by old standards, your smart phone should weigh 20,000 pounds and take up two city blocks. Who knows, maybe in a few years tour riders will be riding on duct tape bikes...

Now Ed.....don't start dissin' my Teledyne's & Graftek! (just jokin')
I have 3 complete Teledyne framesets (2 built up) and one Graftek. One day I'll build up the Graftek and see how it rides.....

[Pete Serotta]

Now Ed.....don't start dissin' my Teledyne's & Graftek! (just jokin')
I have 3 complete Teledyne framesets (2 built up) and one Graftek. One day I'll build up the Graftek and see how it rides.....


My recollection is that they were never accused on rough riding but nuddle riding when it held together. I actually was working in a shop in the late 70s that had a few come thru. :D :D

If anyone can get one to work, it will be Spokes :cool:

[Uncle Jam's Army]

No, I would not order a tig-welded bike......

[rePhil]

Question for Mr Fattic. Do you teach tig building classes too?

[alancw3]

for me it comes down to asthethics. what looks the best to my eyes. i think all methods of tube attacthment i.e. tig, fillet and lugged work. i don't see any frame failures because of attachment method. so that being said it comes down to what looks best to you.

[Doug Fattic]

Question for Mr Fattic. Do you teach tig building classes too?No I don't. I teach a 3 day Intro class to brazing bicycle frames (which also includes bicycle fit and converting that into a custom frame design, and filing techniques), a one week transportation frame class and a 2 or 3 week custom frame class. I highly recommend UBI (United Bicycle Institute) in Oregon as a good place to go to learn how to tig weld bicycle frames. That is where I went to learn how to tig weld titanium (I went to England long before that to learn how to build frames). Sometimes you can get this instruction at community colleges but that is a bit more hit and miss as far as learning the kind of techniques related to welding thin walled round tubing. Their methods are generally more about putting heavy pieces together for industry. My teaching assistant Herbie went to a welding class at a local community college and found it useful for general applications and he made the legs for his alignment table etc. But the instructor knew nothing of welding sequences for keeping tubes in alignment for example.

I also recommend learning how to braze before learning to tig weld (if you haven't done that yet). This is not essential but it can be a stepping stone to coordinating your left and right hand where you move the heating torch with your right hand (if you are right handed) while holding the position of the melting filler rod with your left. Tig welding requires much finer hand movement precision. Knowing how hard it is for the average person to learn how to braze, I asked Ron – the owner of UBI – how challenging it was to teach students how to tig weld. He said that by day 3 or 4 some have buyer's remorse because it just isn't coming together yet but they make it by the end of the 2 week class. They burn through something like 100 feet of practice tubing during the class.

That same day 3 hump also happens when learning how to braze for some students. I actually sequence my framebuilding class instruction so I don't start out with brazing so students can have success doing other things first because some get pretty discouraged when their hands don't coordinate well at the beginning. Knowing how to manage frustration is as important a skill of my job as organizing and explaining brazing techniques and common beginner mistakes and how to compensate for them.

[Elefantino]

Tig.

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5179/5490571168_ebdab12fde_b.jpg

As good as it gets?

[witcombusa]

Tig.

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5179/5490571168_ebdab12fde_b.jpg

As good as it gets?

The chain is hung up in the FD.....how could they not catch that?
So, no....not as good as it gets ;)

[CaptStash]

...I highly recommend UBI (United Bicycle Institute) in Oregon as a good place to go to learn how to tig weld bicycle frames...I asked Ron – the owner of UBI....


OK, thread drift but what the hey, it's New Year's Eve. My step brother (who I met when we were both adults) is also a cyclist. He had bike shops in the 70's and until recently had been riding a custom built steel frame his "buddy" built for him. He finally wore the frame out. When we would chat about bikes, he would often mention his friend who built his frame, etc. Anyway, he called said buddy up to tell him the frame died, and his friend told him he'd build him a new frame and that he'd mmake it the "class" project. Until then I hadn't put together that his friend "Rob" was "Rob of UBI". Go figure!

CaptStash....

PS: The new bike is stunning (TIG'ed) and Mike (my step-bro) is in fact considerably faster on it with modern wheels and STI.

[Elefantino]

The chain is hung up in the FD.....how could they not catch that?
So, no....not as good as it gets ;)
OK, try this:

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5146/5661544646_73fe1a6eea_z.jpg

Dig tig, most definitely.

[Bob Ross]

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5179/5490571168_ebdab12fde_b.jpg

If someone could photoshop the EDGE logos off those wheels, I would get a huge boner, I swear.

[gearguywb]

If any of you guys just can't stand your tig welded frame any longer (Steelman, Strong, etc), that happens to have a 56.5 TT and a 18 or so head tube, please give me a shout. I am happy to ride those low quality build bikes. :)

[rePhil]

Doug,
Thanks for the reply. Would you say it's harder to tig weld a frame?
After years of lugged frames, I have a newfound respect for a well built tigged frame. I thought of how a builder can get everything just right only to screw up the last weld.
Are the frames you build for the Ukraine lugged or tigged? My point is not to start an argument, but if tig is faster / easier why not tig them?

QUOTE=Doug Fattic]No I don't. I teach a 3 day Intro class to brazing bicycle frames (which also includes bicycle fit and converting that into a custom frame design, and filing techniques), a one week transportation frame class and a 2 or 3 week custom frame class. I highly recommend UBI (United Bicycle Institute) in Oregon as a good place to go to learn how to tig weld bicycle frames. That is where I went to learn how to tig weld titanium (I went to England long before that to learn how to build frames). Sometimes you can get this instruction at community colleges but that is a bit more hit and miss as far as learning the kind of techniques related to welding thin walled round tubing. Their methods are generally more about putting heavy pieces together for industry. My teaching assistant Herbie went to a welding class at a local community college and found it useful for general applications and he made the legs for his alignment table etc. But the instructor knew nothing of welding sequences for keeping tubes in alignment for example.

I also recommend learning how to braze before learning to tig weld (if you haven't done that yet). This is not essential but it can be a stepping stone to coordinating your left and right hand where you move the heating torch with your right hand (if you are right handed) while holding the position of the melting filler rod with your left. Tig welding requires much finer hand movement precision. Knowing how hard it is for the average person to learn how to braze, I asked Ron – the owner of UBI – how challenging it was to teach students how to tig weld. He said that by day 3 or 4 some have buyer's remorse because it just isn't coming together yet but they make it by the end of the 2 week class. They burn through something like 100 feet of practice tubing during the class.

That same day 3 hump also happens when learning how to braze for some students. I actually sequence my framebuilding class instruction so I don't start out with brazing so students can have success doing other things first because some get pretty discouraged when their hands don't coordinate well at the beginning. Knowing how to manage frustration is as important a skill of my job as organizing and explaining brazing techniques and common beginner mistakes and how to compensate for them.[/QUOTE]

[witcombusa]

[QUOTE=rePhil]Doug,
Thanks for the reply. Would you say it's harder to tig weld a frame?
After years of lugged frames, I have a newfound respect for a well built tigged frame. I thought of how a builder can get everything just right only to screw up the last weld.
Are the frames you build for the Ukraine lugged or tigged? My point is not to start an argument, but if tig is faster / easier why not tig them?


As he has already stated, he and others enjoy the craftsmanship and astectic of a lugged frame. Different methods for different tastes.
Personally I find well made lugged and fillet brazed frames a lot more pleasing to my eye. ymmv

[jmeloy]

Funny as I read this that as I have worked my way through a number of customs to where i am now really happy with all of my rides I've ended up with three TIG bikes... A Peg, a Bedford, and a Strong. Not a comment on TIG v lugged but on the guys I ended up choosing to do what I wanted done. And two of them are lighter than my lugged builds we're with the same components. Again, not one better than the other just different tubing choices, etc.

[forrestw]

I'd order a TIG constructed frame, like many others I have more appreciation for lugged construction. I'm also willing to throw out that all other things being equal, brazed/welded construction is near equal in final weight.

To be clear, Ti for all intent and purpose CANNOT be brazed; i.e. it can only be brazed in a vacuum, which *ain't* presently or in the near future practical for bicycle frames. Silver-braze fluxes for steel are dangerous enough (they release hydrogen fluoride gas, which has seriously nasty toxicity). To my knowledge there are no fluxes that would work on Ti and anything that would work wouldn't be something I'd want to be exposed to :-/.

The geometrical freedom you get using welded or fillet-brazed construction is paid for in a heat-affected-zone that's more significant than you will see with silver-brazing. That in turn means that welded frames IMO will always be slightly more prone to fatigue failures and anecdotally, those failures certainly are seen (at low frequency) in the HAZ areas adjacent to weld joints.

I also buy Doug's description of observed differences in ride qualities but the difficulty of doing a blind test are huge (I argued this point with Jan Heine here recently) so until I see published results from either Pez-T's lab measurements or extensive finite-element studies of properties (neither of which are cheap to do) I don't expect any definitive answers :-).

Doug, Thanks for the reply. Would you say it's harder to tig weld a frame? After years of lugged frames, I have a newfound respect for a well built tigged frame. I thought of how a builder can get everything just right only to screw up the last weld.
It's also perfectly possible to screw up a lugged frame on the last joint, but once you know how to weld well enough to do frames at all I'd be surprised if this were an issue of any serious proportion.

Learning to weld that well probably does take longer and there are a few more investments you have to make, the biggest being the need for a milling machine and some more tooling for mitering tube ends. While most skilled machinists can file tube joints well enough for lugged construction, welded construction isn't feasible without using machine tools.

Possibly the hardest thing about learning to weld thin wall tubing is that you have to get so close to the work that it's gonna be hard for the students to see what's actually going on, making it a learning-loop with an internal disconnect.

I also recommend learning how to braze before learning to tig weld (if you haven't done that yet). This is not essential but it can be a stepping stone to coordinating your left and right hand where you move the heating torch with your right hand (if you are right handed) while holding the position of the melting filler rod with your left. Tig welding requires much finer hand movement precision.

I agree on the concept but I've only recently corrected errors in my TIG welding that originate from my gas welding/brazing technique - instinctively using torch position to regulate heat <doh>. For that reason I might think that solid practice at plain old arc welding would be a good way to go.

Of course someone learning under an instructor will be less likely to propagate a wrong habit the way I did, which has been 99% self-taught.

[Kontact]

The geometrical freedom you get using welded or fillet-brazed construction is paid for in a heat-affected-zone that's more significant than you will see with silver-brazing. That in turn means that welded frames IMO will always be slightly more prone to fatigue failures and anecdotally, those failures certainly are seen (at low frequency) in the HAZ areas adjacent to weld joints.
Isn't this mitigated or even reversed by the benefits of air hardening tubing and TIG?

[forrestw]

Isn't this (HAZ issues) mitigated or even reversed by the benefits of air hardening tubing and TIG?

I would say no.

Yes, air-hardening alloys are designed to achieve full properties at the weld. What happens here is the weld zone is raised to ~2600 Deg F and then cools relatively rapidly and the weld zone achieves "full" properties (see below). The HAZ however, is raised to a temperature sufficient to locally anneal but not high enough to re-harden, resulting in a reduction in yield strength.

The other thing that happens is considerably higher distortion in welded joints, resulting in higher residual stresses in weld joints than in brazed. Residual stress doesn't have to be bad but usually it is. Residual tensile stress is inherently bad in joints that are subject to fatigue (DT, ST and chainstays) will be adversely affected.

Edit: This is to some extent splitting hairs but welds have coarse grain structure and one of the reasons we cold form and heat treat metals is to refine grain structure i.e. smaller grain size = improved fatigue resistance.

[Doug Fattic]

Doug,
Thanks for the reply. Would you say it's harder to tig weld a frame?
After years of lugged frames, I have a newfound respect for a well built tigged frame. I thought of how a builder can get everything just right only to screw up the last weld.
Are the frames you build for the Ukraine lugged or tigged? My point is not to start an argument, but if tig is faster / easier why not tig them?If “by harder” you mean it requires more skill and training to get it right than the answer is yes. Because doing a tig frame does requires more talent, longer training and an expensive welder with access to a supply of argon bottles, that also makes it more limiting in providing qualified personal and buying the necessary equipment.

Our original idea of spending as much of the donated money as possible to help support the economy of Ukraine also put restrictions on what we can do. The most efficient option would have been to bring containers of bicycles in from the far east but that wouldn't have met some of our other goals. We used some old Nikko one piece head tube lug combinations that are the simplest to braze. This reduces the chance by a newer builder of his mistakes making it out into the boonies.

I've written about my experiences trying to get the bicycle company in Ukraine to make our bicycles for us before we decided to do it ourselves on the Classic Rendezvous list lately in case that story might be of interest to somebody.

[rePhil]

Thanks for taking the time to answer.


If “by harder” you mean it requires more skill and training to get it right than the answer is yes. Because doing a tig frame does requires more talent, longer training and an expensive welder with access to a supply of argon bottles, that also makes it more limiting in providing qualified personal and buying the necessary equipment.

Our original idea of spending as much of the donated money as possible to help support the economy of Ukraine also put restrictions on what we can do. The most efficient option would have been to bring containers of bicycles in from the far east but that wouldn't have met some of our other goals. We used some old Nikko one piece head tube lug combinations that are the simplest to braze. This reduces the chance by a newer builder of his mistakes making it out into the boonies.

I've written about my experiences trying to get the bicycle company in Ukraine to make our bicycles for us before we decided to do it ourselves on the Classic Rendezvous list lately in case that story might be of interest to somebody.

[Kontact]

I would say no.

Yes, air-hardening alloys are designed to achieve full properties at the weld. What happens here is the weld zone is raised to ~2600 Deg F and then cools relatively rapidly and the weld zone achieves "full" properties (see below). The HAZ however, is raised to a temperature sufficient to locally anneal but not high enough to re-harden, resulting in a reduction in yield strength.

The other thing that happens is considerably higher distortion in welded joints, resulting in higher residual stresses in weld joints than in brazed. Residual stress doesn't have to be bad but usually it is. Residual tensile stress is inherently bad in joints that are subject to fatigue (DT, ST and chainstays) will be adversely affected.

Edit: This is to some extent splitting hairs but welds have coarse grain structure and one of the reasons we cold form and heat treat metals is to refine grain structure i.e. smaller grain size = improved fatigue resistance.
Great answer - thank you. I do wonder though if both silver brazed 4130 and tig'd 853 end up with annealed HAZ, just in different distances from the joint.

But your point about welding stresses is really interesting.

[fogrider]

thanks for the great info, seems like 853, OX and S3 are great for tig and lightweight. I do know if a tig weld that failed on a bike...seat tube failed at the bottom bracket. the bike is currently back at the builder for repairs.

[forrestw]

Great answer - thank you. I do wonder though if both silver brazed 4130 and tig'd 853 end up with annealed HAZ, just in different distances from the joint.

But your point about welding stresses is really interesting.
4130 can have a yield stress 'only' up around 110,000psi That is not affected at all by silver-brazing temperatures. Because it gets its properties from work hardening (i.e. strength is increased by cold forming), those properties are not affected below 1450 DegF in the way that formation of .

If memory serves S3 is up around 170,000 I don't know the properties across the HAZ, but it has to be lowered. The only frame material I know of that that can be unaffected by HAZ issues is reynolds 953, however as far as I know no builders are doing post-weld heat-treatment 0f 953 post construction so the available frames still have an HAZ.


thanks for the great info, seems like 853, OX and S3 are great for tig and lightweight. I do know if a tig weld that failed on a bike...seat tube failed at the bottom bracket. the bike is currently back at the builder for repairs.
Both TIG welded and lugged frames that have failed at joints or in HAZ. It's extremely rare but anecdotally more common in TIG than lugged.