BigLegEmma, GGM, Marcelo: Pegoretti Rides [Archive]

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dbrk

08-06-2005, 02:42 PM

I've had two rides on the new Great Googlee Mooglee and I've had Emma for quite a while, going on two seasons now. I'm also a few years into Marcelos, though the current one is new and the best yet. All three are stock 59cm, which I have discovered is my magic Pegoretti size. I love the set back, 72d sta, 45mm rake, and the resulting way the bikes let you "sit in" on them. The front ends differ by fork: Marcelo: Reynolds Ouzo with CK hs
BLE Reynolds: Pro Peloton with CK hs
GGM: Mizuno integrated (taken from a DeRosa King, there being very few 45mm rake option integrated forks, none currently available from Reynolds) with PMP hs.

All three bikes are set up nearly identically with Ritchey 40cm bars and 12cm stems, Thomson posts (shim for the GGM) and Regal saddles, Record brifters, Rec or Chorus ders., Proton wheels. Other than the forks, the biggest differences in equipment are tires:
BLE: Conti 3000 23c frt/25c rear on Proton wheels
Marcelo: Michelin Pro Race (might be Axial Pro) 23c on Proton wheels
GGM: Michelin Pro Race 25c (the rear is a very tight fit) on Zonda wheels
BLE and Marcelo both use TA Zephyr 48-36 cranksets, GGM uses the Ritchey WCS Compact 50-34. Tires and wheels make more difference in the ride than any other component choice and since these bikes all use wheelsets VERY close to one another, I think tires are way more important still in this comparison.

There are a few three hour loops around Bristol in the Finger Lakes of western NY that give you a good idea of everything. All of these rides include some gravel and hardpack roads---because I think every ride deserves at least a mile of these, which would include the requisite getting-out-the-driveway event, something that most visitors here really dislike (loooose gravel, nasty little climb, etc) but I positively live for. Then there are rollers, steep short climbs, long steady climbs (some very steep, some moderate), long straight descents, long twisting descents, and almost no flats; wide shoulders and unusually good pavement abound while the gravel roads are largely hardpacked by this time of year. You would have a hard time finding a better environment for a bike comparison. At the TdFL we went longer and I chose generally less steep and fewer hills than I normally ride alone. The bikes' set ups also form a good comparison because the frames are identical in size, differing principally in fork (but not rake), less so in parts, as mentioned.

With these nearly identical set ups, the Marcelo is the lightest though I cannot say how much lighter (it being the one not yet weighed on the same scale). Emma weighs 19.4lbs and the GGM weighs 20.64lbs. I was surprised that Emma was a full pound lighter but I think some (just some) might be in the wheels and the rest made up in the very OS sized GGM tubing. Note that no effort (none) has been made to build the bikes lighter. I am of the view that one could easily take a pound off each without much effort. My parts choices are about my preferences, many of which are decidedly "heavy" by weenie-standards.

I suppose the rider makes a big difference. I am just shy of 5'10" and I wish I were still 155lbs. I'm in pretty much peak condition (despite a few nasty, persistent injuries) but no longer the man I once was, clearly. I prefer to climb seated, never been a sprinter, and consider myself only an average climber but a good gregario, so I can just trundle along at steady speeds. In short, I bring no great power, size, and consequent stress to a bike frame. I like my frames on the large size by conventional (too small, waaaay too small) standards but I balance out nicely on a Pegoretti 59cm, seated well behind the spindle (no KOPS for me, thank you) and with a "normal" looking 12cm stem (which I deem neither short nor long, hence "normal"). Because I am on the smallish and less powerful size of the equation, I think myself more sensitive to bikes being too stiff than not stiff enough. All stiffness is measured ultimately in comparison to a Principia Rex, a Danish bike I once had made of aluminum that would rattle the teeth out of crow, just a horrible bike for anyone but the hardest core stiffguy racer. A Pegoretti rides, oh, about ten million times better and my Fina (needs replacing with a 59cm...) was steel-like smoooooth in comparison to the Principia, and for that matter any other aluminum bike I've owned (myriad). The Fina is the _only_ aluminum bike I have ever loved.

So the verdict? Interestingly, Emma is by far the stiffest and most responsive, efficient frame. She is really stiff in comparison to the Marcelo and noticably more stiff than the new GGM. You can actually tell the difference. For some smaller, less powerful folks, Emma may strike you as "too much bike," as it were, but not for me and I think most folks would be very, very pleased. Emma is not at all harsh or chattering the teeth or just too _hard_. Emma's smaller (38mm) than the GGM (44mm) diameter downtube has those cutout, inset reinforcements that really seem to do something to stiffen the downtube. Emma wears those BIG legs (you must see in person to believe how cool they look...), 35.0-25.0 tapered chainstays while I think the GGM wears the same 24.0 cylindrical chainstays as the Marcelo. But there is no mistaking the sensation that Emma is efficient though I would say not the least bit uncomfortable. The surprise has been how smooth the GGM is and how much more the GGM rides like the Marcelo than either bike rides like Emma. Perhaps Dario made my GGM a bit more mellow because he knows I am more weasel than clydesdale, but I think the GGM's reputation as ultra-stiff is overstated. I have found it remarkably smooth and forgiving--- very like the Marcelo--- though stiffer in the bb. My old Marcelo I could get a tad of front derailleur rub by really pounding up hill but the current one will not do that. On Great Googlee there is not the slightest hint that I could generate that level of lateral frame flex. Still, I've twice come home now to the sensation of "geez, that was a _great_ riding bike and my body tells me so..." The GGM is a truly wonderful bike and I would be happy to ride it all day, it being far, far better than just an efficient, fast, short ride racer. Again, mine strikes me as having all the virtues of great steel without cavaet or reservation.

I would rate the forks all even, btw, with no advantage to any: none do anything bad, all do everything right especially on scary descents, rough roads, and front end flexing, stressful climbs. The forks were not players in the comparative feeling of the bikes. I like carbon forks that never draw attention to themselves.

I would like to try a Duende to see if it is even more comfortable than the Marcelo. But, interestingly, these particular Pegorettis do indeed ride differently by material even when they are all steel. I think my next (hopefully) will be a CCKMP because I'm about the right size. I would not like to have to choose among them, as if one were superior, because I think they each have their charms and virtues. I will say that I pick Emma when I'm feeling most feisty and want that really responsive ride. But what I've also learned is that the Pegorettis have such _excellent_ road manners and behave so consistently, so correctly, that I always get off the bikes feeling like the bikes had a great day (even if I have not). I was expecting the GGM to be more like Emma and less like the Marcelo but that is decidedly not my experience, so that's the revelation, for what it's worth.

What I really feel is really, really lucky.

dbrk

Dr. Doofus

08-06-2005, 03:18 PM

dr. b

how long is the HT on a 59 if one cuts off the extension? A pego is doof's fantasy bike (though one will, in all likelihood, never be his)...a 57 or a 59 would both "work" with a 120 stem (setback post on the small one, non-setback on the larger one...the gunnar matches up with the 57, whereas the giordana has the same dimensions (quel surprise) as a 59 pego) as the reach on both bikes is the same...both of doof's bikes have 17cm head tubes, which is the ticket....

dr. d.

Fixed

08-06-2005, 03:33 PM

Wow a great review dude you should be paid that's better than the reviews in the mags. thanks it was fun to read.Cheers

dbrk

08-06-2005, 04:10 PM

dr. b

how long is the HT on a 59 if one cuts off the extension? ...both of doof's bikes have 17cm head tubes, which is the ticket....

dr. d.

dr. d[oof].

On the 59cm bikes the headtubes measure 20.3cm and I think the most you could safely remove is 2.5cm, this gives you 17.8. If I were you, I go for smaller size.

d[r.]b[rk]

Climb01742

08-06-2005, 04:12 PM

douglas, as always, wonderful report. i can heartily endorse your desire for a cckmp. we seem alike in build and power (non)output. ;) i'm finding the cckmp my fav peg. for shorter rides, on better roads, the marcelo is wonderful. it zooms. for pure speed (or what passes for it from me) the marcelo gets the nod by just a bit. but going longer, over worse roads, the cckmp is, for me, more forgiving. and lordy, does it go uphill, especially out of the saddle. i would, though, love to ride an emma once. pegorettis...collect them all. :beer:

jerk

08-06-2005, 04:43 PM

good review.

the jerk's emma will be out in full force tomorrow, since sadly, the c50 is going away. (the jerk is really stupid, he sold it thinking there was a colnago c50 ultra rasmussen bike en route....but colnago won't be making any larger than 58 for the forseeable future....and yes, 180mm stem is too long.)

jerk

Serpico

08-06-2005, 05:46 PM

great comments

kenyee

08-06-2005, 07:18 PM

Doug,

How in the world do you manage to fit on a 58? I'm 5'9" and barely fit a 55 Serotta!

Great review, as always :-)

dbrk

08-06-2005, 07:49 PM

Doug,
How in the world do you manage to fit on a 58? I'm 5'9" and barely fit a 55 Serotta!

Riding a "race" style bike is quite different in terms of fit, balance, weight, tires, etc., than a randonneur or other style. Race bikes generally ask for a bit more weight forward and on the hands and so, as the redoubtable jerk tells us, usually a longer stem. It is not uncommon to see 10 or even 9cm stems on Singer Randonneurs and I'd venture to say that Mr. Csuka and Alex Singer know a thing or two about bicycles. But this is another kettle of fish.

A Pegoretti has a pretty slack seat tube angle (a very good thing, since you almost never hear someone say, "geez, I wish I could get my saddle more forward...") and though the bb height is very much in the racer-ish camp at 7cm, on a 59cm I have about 5cm of bar/saddle drop, a 12cm stem, and a very stable but relaxed pressure on my hands. The _fashion_ is to ride smaller bikes because smaller is stiffer, handles quicker, and is more aerodynamic but so long as you have enough weight properly distributed then a race-style bike can also fit a bit larger. It may be out of fashion to ride a larger frame but try using a Campag NR seatpost on a modern bike and find out how quickly you run out of post because the frame is too small.

My PBH is 85cm and my pedal stroke puts my saddle at 77cm, which is pretty tall and a bit more than usual, which is about PBH-11cm (depending on the pedal, the KOPS or non-KOPS, etc.). Any one can stand over a bike with 23c tires, a bb drop of 7, that is PBH-25cm. This formula works about, oh, 98% of the time in terms of the much exaggerated SOH issue. But mountain biking, modern racing, etc., has all led to smaller frames. I normally ride a 60cm or sometimes 61cm randonneur, sometimes even in a racer-looking bike though the geos are not much like modern racers. There are just two things to think about: first, is your weight and pedal position suitable (a larger frame doesn't necessarily make this harder) and second, how much bar/saddle drop do you want. Most folks are slamming back their seats (seat angles too steep) and aching in their backs because they have been fit like under-30 racers on race bikes. I am likely as flexible as anyone on this Forum (it's the yoga...) but I don't want a modern race fit. With the relaxed sta on the Pegorettis, I never have setback issues, saddle position is fine, and there is plenty of forward weight. As handlebars come UP, so too they come BACK towards you, which leads to a longer stem. You have to have enough weight forward and your pedal position nailed, and voila, you fit on a larger frame.

Tell me your PBH and subtract 25cm and I GUARANTEE you that you can stand over a frame that size. You may not be used to it, the bike shop may not approve, you may get called names, but you will fit. The bike will actually look normal too when you get on it.

I will be slammed for saying such things but I've helped dozens of persons get fit on bikes that aren't leaning you over like the tower of Pisa, without heaps of spacers or radical riser stems, and the bikes handle just fine. This style of fit does not suit crit racing, btw!!! Know how you really ride, I say!! To each his own!! Be comfortable with what you like!

dbrk

dave thompson

08-06-2005, 07:51 PM

Doug,

How in the world do you manage to fit on a 58? I'm 5'9" and barely fit a 55 Serotta!

Great review, as always :-)
PBH is the secret! I'm 5'11", with an 87.5cm PBH and ride a 60 Serotta. That and a willingness to have only a handful of seatpost showing. And a declination to adhere to "standard" stand-over formulas.

Fixed

08-06-2005, 08:18 PM

Who is this masked bike guru? I am goin have to read this 10 times to try and understand all this.Thank :beer: s Cheers

kenyee

08-06-2005, 09:30 PM

Tell me your PBH and subtract 25cm and I GUARANTEE you that you can stand over a frame that size.

My PBH is 83cm and I can't see how a 58 would work, though it's probably because I'm nowhere near as flexible as you :-)
I use an 8cm stem w/ the 55cm stock serotta and there's a fist of seatpost showing (1cm behind KOPS). Rides great to me, even if the stem looks a bit odd to people ;-)
Gotta pop by International Bike and try a Pegoretti...

jerk

08-06-2005, 09:39 PM

dbrk is completely spot on about fit. race bikes have changed. drops aren't as deep, hoods are the primary riding position and racers at the euro-pro level are getting bigger and to a lesser extent roads are getting better....so bikes are lower than they were before but the end result is the same....just the seats are higher the head tubes are shorter the drops are lower and aren't used as much and the brake hoods are higher....oh, frame materials are also fatter so a 55 c-c frame in scandium/carbonium/unobtanium sits taller than one made out of 753....by the way both are going to break within 10,000 kms of racing.

case in point. petacchi and merckx are/were the same size. petacchi rode a 55c-c pinarello with a 58.5 top tube and a 140 stem when he won milan-san remo...merckx rode a 61 cm c-c colnago with a 58.5 top-tube and a 130 stem when he won san remo for the last time.... both had a comp[arable degree of set back, the drops on merckx's bike were lower, the tops were higher and the hoods were in the same exact place.....setback was the same...but merckx's bike looks like a dbrk fit and petacchi's bike looks, well modern. like the jerk's bike.
jerk

dbrk

08-06-2005, 10:03 PM

dbrk is completely spot on about fit. race bikes have changed. drops aren't as deep, hoods are the primary riding position and racers at the euro-pro level are getting bigger and to a lesser extent roads are getting better....so bikes are lower than they were before but the end result is the same....just the seats are higher the head tubes are shorter the drops are lower and aren't used as much and the brake hoods are higher....oh, frame materials are also fatter so a 55 c-c frame in scandium/carbonium/unobtanium sits taller than one made out of 753....by the way both are going to break within 10,000 kms of racing.

case in point]...but merckx's bike looks like a dbrk fit and petacchi's bike looks, well modern. like the jerk's bike.
jerk

Gosh, I wish I'd said it that directly and correctly. Yes, yes, yes, this is exactly what I mean. Senor jerk has put it as well in a clear historical context and for that he deserves special kudos.

Thanks a million, this helped everyone, I think, including (or especially) me.

dbrk

Climb01742

08-07-2005, 06:42 AM

ok, i'm out of my depth here, but i'll wade in anyway...given all that's been said, couldn't a bike be designed (or fitted) to a rider simply by knowing their 3 contact points, as defined by saddle height, saddle setback and reach? this would position a rider "in space" as it were, letting a fitter/builder create under the rider an appropriate frame. as the merckx, petacchi example points out (i think) their contact points were nearly identical, yet the frames under them were quite different. are we, as riders, focusing on the "wrong" thing when we think of our bikes as a size (a 55 or whatever) when the important dimensions are the 3 floating in space? does this make any sense?

Redturbo

08-07-2005, 07:47 AM

Bingo, you win!

turbo
:banana: :banana: :banana:

dirtdigger88

08-07-2005, 08:19 AM

couldn't a bike be designed (or fitted) to a rider simply by knowing their 3 contact points, as defined by saddle height, saddle setback and reach? this would position a rider "in space" as it were, letting a fitter/builder create under the rider an appropriate frame. the important dimensions are the 3 floating in space?

climb-o

you the man

by the way- douglas- great read as always-

Jason

Dr. Doofus

08-07-2005, 09:14 AM

round round round round round round round

just got back from 2 evil fast hours on the giordana drubbing some other local cat 4 bozos (ozone is "green," doof can breathe just fine, power just oozing out today...but promised mrs. doofus that the weeds would be wacked and the hedges clipped today...so no crit)...nelson sez that dario did the prototypes and refining what the production models would be on the giordanas...so even though they were built by billato, the round design makes 'em quasi-pegs in the doof's book...or at least their tacky cousins...man what a lively, fast bike...not light...flexy in a good way...but god this thing eats corners...it just wants to go faster through turns...the more you lean it, the more it wants to go....

must rob bank and get luigino

(and yes doof would take it into uscf frenzies)

christian

08-07-2005, 09:14 AM

Climb-o,

Right on. Remember when Richard-san got a bike from Nagasawa-san?
All he specified were seat height, setback, and reach to bars.

- Christian
76cm, 17.5cm, 57.5cm (tip of saddle to center of bars)

dbrk

08-07-2005, 09:23 AM

Climb-o,

Right on.

No, it's not that simple though it is possible think of it this way. The reason is that the position and the weight of the hands on the bars is not a constant. In other words, a taller frame with lift the neck, flatten the back, and take some of the pressure off the hands. You aren't floating in space, you are balancing weight proportionally. Those proportions of weight need _not_ be fixed. Clearly on a smaller frame I am putting more weight on my hands and my head is "dipped" lower while on the taller frame I am longer, flatter, not as weighty forward. As I understand it, you (that could be anyone) thinks that we need the same proportions of weight on the three points of contact which, well, is not so: even a racer-ish bike can handle properly with different amounts of weight, so while the _distances_ are the same, the points of angle and weight are different.

dbrk

christian

08-07-2005, 10:21 AM

The three fit points aren't the same on all the bikes you own, but I thought the point of Climb's post was that if you know what type of bike you want, that's really all you need to specify.

For instance, my Rivendell has slightly greater setback and less saddle-bar drop than my Pegoretti. But to determine if a new bike will fit (or when I send in a custom order), I can use the Riv fit points or the Pegoretti fit points, and the style of bike I want, to determine a good baseline. In other words, all my future go-fast bikes will fit like my Pegoretti. All my 200k+ bikes will fit like my Rivendell. And to communicate that fit, I can just give those fit points. I'll let cpg and e-Richie and Round worry about the weight distribution, front center, etc.

And assuredly, the weight distribution will be different. I've got a lower position, and more weight on my hands on my hands on my Pegoretti, and more weight on my butt on the Rivendell. The Pegoretti is perfect for 80-90 miles. Anything longer than that, the Riv gets the nod.

- Christian

round

08-07-2005, 10:36 AM

round round round round round round round

fast bike...not light...flexy in a good way...but god this thing eats corners...it just wants to go faster through turns...the more you lean it, the more it wants to go....

must rob bank and get luigino

(and yes doof would take it into uscf frenzies)

Hi Dr. Doofus
Round tubes ,good geometry , really special alloy steel and a crumb ( i don't know if this is correct) of experience ,and you have a good bicycle,this is the Giordana frames.
must rob bank and get luigino
When ,where and what bank ? I will be happy to meet you,loking for a new stereo valve amplifier!!!!

Round

jerk

08-07-2005, 10:41 AM

Hi Dr. Doofus
Round tubes ,good geometry , really special alloy steel and a crumb ( i don't know if this is correct) of experience ,and you have a good bicycle,this is the Giordana frames.
must rob bank and get luigino
When ,where and what bank ? I will be happy to meet you,loking for a new stereo valve amplifier!!!!

Round

how about an orange?
orange amps are the bestest.

jerk��

Big Dan

08-07-2005, 10:48 AM

Wish I could get my JC120 back...
basically gave it away years ago because it was to big................ :crap:

Orange...I'll get kicked out of the house............. :D

round

08-07-2005, 11:08 AM

how about an orange?
orange amps are the bestest.

jerk��

Orange at home?
Need for a audio tubes amp !!!!!

and Jaco plays a Acoustic 360!!

Jeremy

08-07-2005, 11:57 AM

I'm wondering if someone at Pegoretti has a liking for somewaht obscure American musicians. Great Googly Moogly is a line from a Mojo Nixon and Skid Roper song, while CCKMP is the title of a truly remarkable Steve Earle song about heroin addiction. It stands for "cocaine cannot kill my pain", the next line is "heroin's the only thing, the only gift the darkness brings". Pretty hardcore stuff. Any thoughts?

Jeremy

Big Dan

08-07-2005, 11:59 AM

Jeremy

08-07-2005, 12:19 PM

Jeremy, you are sooooo close......look at the post above yours and try to figure out who is round???

:D

Hi Big Dan,

Help me, I don't know. It can't be Country ****, I guess Richard is all that they will post? (rest in peace), I was lucky enough to see him on his last stint with the Pleasure Barons. I even had the honor of carrying him around the audience during "happy boy" at a Detroit show years ago. "I must rob a bank", reference to "I hate banks" perhaps?

Jeremy

Dr. Doofus

08-07-2005, 12:24 PM

how about an orange?
orange amps are the bestest.

jerk��

the jerk ain't always right

1) '57 gibson skylark -- bestest rockin studio amp...5 watt class A beast...run a good mahogany slab with p-90s through it, pull some miking hocus-pocus and enjoy righteous New York Dolls grind

2) '58 fender princeton -- bestest clean studio amp...tele+princeton=heaven

doof sold em both too long ago....

anyway, the giordana (concept by round) reminds doof of what very good bike feels like. the gunnar is a good bike -- it will lean as far as you take it...the giordana is a very good bike -- it encourages you to keep leaning it...small difference...but big in a race corner

now if someone just happens to have a 57 pego, a 59 C-50, or a 58x57, 17cm setback, 17cm head tube, crit-tuned kelly bedford or chester CT creation that is lying about unused, doof will take it off your hands for a couple of weeks to get an idea of what a great bike handles like....

e-RICHIE

08-07-2005, 01:00 PM

...couldn't a bike be designed (or fitted) to a rider simply by knowing their 3 contact points, as defined by saddle height, saddle setback and reach? this would position a rider "in space" as it were, letting a fitter/builder create under the rider an appropriate frame.

amen.
the contact points are static. they must be chosen correctly
AND they must work in harmony with the bicycle's design.
the two are inseperable, kinda like roy.

Right on. Remember when Richard-san got a bike from Nagasawa-san? All he specified were seat height, setback, and reach to bars.

i trusted mr nagasawa. do you trust your contact points
AND your builder?

e-RICHIE

Fixed

08-07-2005, 01:24 PM

contact points= there is more than one way to skin the cat.You guys are too hip.Thanks great readin.Cheers

e-RICHIE

08-07-2005, 01:30 PM

my contact point is my ibook
e-RICHIE��

saab2000

08-07-2005, 02:12 PM

e-RICHIE

08-07-2005, 02:18 PM

How do we determine the optimum contact points? How do we even measure what we have? I feel I am close with my Strong and with my Merckx, which are set up to within MMs of each other.

Serious question.

BTW, trusting the builder is a big leap sometimes. Even though they surely know more than I do.

when your pants droop you get braces, right?
are you riding efficiently? does exercise induce
pain or injury? you will know best what is and
then you will ceased fidgeting with the "numbers".
if trusting a builder is a leap, why?
i trust airline pilots!
e-RICHIE��

e-RICHIE

08-07-2005, 02:27 PM

[QUOTE=saab2000]How do we determine the optimum contact points? How do we even measure what we have? QUOTE]

here:

saab2000

08-07-2005, 02:28 PM

I am glad you trust the pilots! :banana:

Riding does not induce any pain and I have a flat back position. I feel it is efficient. I am a perfectionist and always think that pretty good is not good enough.

You can see my Merckx under "the slow merckx in question" in the custom gallery here. There you will see my position, or at least one which works for me, but no picture of me on it.

But even though the bars are low and the drop pretty great I almost feel like they could be lower. That is what I mean. How low is too low?

Maybe when I am back out east I will have to visit a builder and make the leap of faith. I was once measure by a pillar of American framebuilding, but got cold feet. My bad.

BTW, pilots tend to be control freaks. I am no exception..... a bad customer would say some...... :rolleyes:

Needs Help

08-07-2005, 03:05 PM

Excuse me, but what is 'l' called and what is 'R' called?

e-RICHIE

08-07-2005, 03:08 PM

I is called frame setback
R is called saddle nose setback
S is called financial setback
e-RICHIE��

Needs Help

08-07-2005, 03:14 PM

Thanks. :)

saab2000

08-07-2005, 03:29 PM

e-RICHIE

08-07-2005, 03:41 PM

BTW, I guess that various size cycles, including the excellent one by Serotta measure the contact points more than the lengths, though those are the numbers that end up being used.

I once used one and it seemed pretty cool. I guess that would be a way to let the customer work with the builder and get something right.

that's "half" of the it. creating a useable design
incorporating the static contact points is a builder
issue, not a fitter issue.
hey - thanks for reading.
e-RICHIE��

aLexis

08-07-2005, 07:13 PM

that's "half" of the it. creating a useable design
incorporating the static contact points is a builder
issue, not a fitter issue.
hey - thanks for reading.
B]e-RICHIE��[/B]

That is the way the process works. The fitter and the rider work to find the position of the three contact points, and Kelly does the rest. The numbers on the size cycle top tube, etc... are only for reference. They do not necessarily reflect the future frame measurements.

e-RICHIE

08-07-2005, 07:20 PM

That is the way the process works. The fitter and the rider work to find the position of the three contact points, and Kelly does the rest. The numbers on the size cycle top tube, etc... are only for reference. They do not necessarily reflect the future frame measurements.

word.
i've seen size sheets where the fitter
spec-ed in the geometry too. checks
and balances are in place. kool.
e-RICHIE��

Fixed

08-07-2005, 10:04 PM

Orange at home?
Need for a audio tubes amp !!!!!

and Jaco plays a Acoustic 360!!
jaco played ..... kinda like Bird played a plastic sax it didn't matter what they played they were music ....i.m.h.o. e-RICHEY could use state of the art tools or old tools and still make a work of art it don't matter it's going to come out these are masters.Cheers

Needs Help

08-08-2005, 01:15 AM

Dr. Doofus

08-08-2005, 05:48 AM

that's why the two numbers -- frame setback and saddle height. unless someone is doing something really stupid with the saddle (all the way forward on a zero setback post, for instance), one would get an idea "within the acceptable range" of what saddle setback would be if one has frame setback and saddle height.

e-RICHIE

08-08-2005, 07:02 AM

e-RICHIE,

I'm confused again. What relevance does the 'l' measurement have? Doesn't the rider's position relative to the bottom bracket also depend on how far the post is extended. If the post is extended farther, then the rider moves rearward, and if the post is shortened, the rider moves forward, yet 'l' would be the same in both cases. So, it seems to me if someone said my frame setback is X, that wouldn't tell you much about their position relative to the bottom bracket.

"I" stays the same on a pre-built bicycle but "R" describes
where you sit on it. as an example, if the "R" is 8cm but
the "I" is 14cm, it will tell an enlightened viewer that your
saddle is shoved rearward on -that- frame. since all the tubes
are connected, it is likely that a poorly thought out frame
setback distance with have adverse affects on resultant
measurements elsewhere, be they cg, or front wheelbase
(handling issues), etcetera.
conversely, if the "R" is 5cm and the "I" is 17cm, it is likely
that the saddle is shoved forward. same problem - different
resultant issues.
if someone states that their "R" measurement is "X" and it
works for them and their lower body output is "fine", then
the measurement is a good starting point when a new sheet
of paper is used to draw the next bicycle. one could either
incorporate or ignore the "I" measurement on the existing
bicycle depeding on the feedback of the user and/or the
experiences-in-the-field of the constructor.
e-RICHIE��

weisan

08-08-2005, 10:44 AM

WOW!

This thread is heading towards the Cycling Museum Hall of Fame. :rolleyes:

christian

08-08-2005, 11:47 AM

conversely, if the "R" is 5cm and the "I" is 17cm, it is likely
that the saddle is shoved forward. same problem - different
resultant issues.

Hey Richie,

If my "I" is 17.5 and my "R" is 8cm, and the scoopy part of the saddle aligns with the seattube, am I e-RICHIE approved?

Thanks for the tips on locks btw, I had lox/cream cheese on pumpernickel at Zabar's Cafe yesterday afternoon. Mmmm.

- Christian

e-RICHIE

08-08-2005, 01:42 PM

Hey Richie,

If my "I" is 17.5 and my "R" is 8cm, and the scoopy part of the saddle aligns with the seattube, am I e-RICHIE approved?

Thanks for the tips on locks btw, I had lox/cream cheese on pumpernickel at Zabar's Cafe yesterday afternoon. Mmmm.

- Christian

yeah.
you're cool.
from now on you are christian��
your's truly -
e-RICHIE��

Chief

08-08-2005, 02:17 PM

I measure R = 3.5 cm and I = 14 cm. What is the implication?

Thanks,
Chief

e-RICHIE

08-08-2005, 02:23 PM

i'm thinking 'bout a randy newman song...
banasasas!

mjb266

06-28-2012, 11:42 PM

Bump for a seven year old epic discussion. Learned a lot and still can learn from this. So, is Round the same round from the salon???

dave thompson

06-28-2012, 11:58 PM

Bump for a seven year old epic discussion. Learned a lot and still can learn from this. So, is Round the same round from the salon???

Yup, he builds only with round tubes.

Louis

06-29-2012, 01:08 AM

Yup, he builds only with round tubes.

Dave, were you just kidding? I'd have to go downstairs to check to be 100% sure, but I believe my Duende DT is not a cylinder.

Louis

thinpin

06-29-2012, 01:51 AM

Dave, were you just kidding? I'd have to go downstairs to check to be 100% sure, but I believe my Duende DT is not a cylinder.

Louis

Mine was the last time I looked!

christian

06-29-2012, 06:00 AM

Do we have an ophthalmologist in house for Louis? :)

Fixed

06-29-2012, 07:34 AM

Golden gem all the old heavyweights are here in this post
Cheers

nelson

06-29-2012, 08:07 AM

Before Dario went "Round", he experimented with many different shaped tubes. The earliest Duendes (as well as the Team Customs) had teardrop shaped tubes. These were the first frames to be marketed under the Pegoretti name. When he was building for Pinarello, he built the Radius, which actually had some square sections of tubing. Dario once told me that he went round because a round tube always had the best strength-to-weight ratio and that it was much easier to determine how a round tube will react under different conditions than a non-round tube.

Nelson Frazier
Gita Sporting Goods, Ltd.

CaliFly

06-29-2012, 08:18 AM

This thread is one of the reasons I bought...and kept...my Duende. :banana:

Climb01742

06-29-2012, 09:12 AM

threads like this remind me what was lost when folks went their separate ways. sigh.

rnhood

06-29-2012, 09:26 AM

Much of the information in these older threads age very gracefully.

thwart

06-29-2012, 09:27 AM

threads like this remind me what was lost when folks went their separate ways. sigh.

Couldn't agree more. But...

... this place still rocks pretty well. And the other folks are just across the hall.

texbike

06-29-2012, 09:34 AM

Climb01742

06-29-2012, 09:44 AM

Couldn't agree more. But...

... this place still rocks pretty well. And the other folks are just across the hall.

100% agree. and no criticism meant, but it was kind of special when all the folks and opinions were in one place and they could bounce off each other and enlighten us all.

wooly

06-29-2012, 10:39 AM

100% agree. and no criticism meant, but it was kind of special when all the folks and opinions were in one place and they could bounce off each other and enlighten us all.

+10000000
I totally agree.

jlwdm

06-29-2012, 01:37 PM

Couldn't agree more. But...

... this place still rocks pretty well. And the other folks are just across the hall.

A lot of the original folks across the hall don't post much anymore. A lot different than the early years.

Jeff

SoCalSteve

06-29-2012, 03:59 PM

A lot of the original folks across the hall don't post much anymore. A lot different than the early years.

Jeff

Different isn't always a bad thing...:banana:

thinpin

06-29-2012, 05:47 PM

Dave, were you just kidding? I'd have to go downstairs to check to be 100% sure, but I believe my Duende DT is not a cylinder.

Louis

So Louis have you got an oval down tube? That would be special.

Johnny P

06-29-2012, 08:54 PM

Doug,

How in the world do you manage to fit on a 58? I'm 5'9" and barely fit a 55 Serotta!

Great review, as always :-)

My thought too. I'm 5' 9 1/2" and can ride a 56 or 57 cm frame, but a 59? I don't think so.

Louis

06-29-2012, 09:32 PM

So Louis have you got an oval down tube? That would be special.

I'm pretty sure it is, but didn't go check.

I will later when I'm home.

Louis

06-30-2012, 05:05 AM

Just checked the Duende. Both the TT and DT are teardrop-shaped. The TT not dramatically so, but the DT very much so. The TT has the "fat" part on top, while the DT has it on the bottom / forward side. ST is round.

thinpin

06-30-2012, 05:41 AM

I'd like to see that, photos I mean.

wooly

06-30-2012, 09:39 AM

Btw - just finished reading this thread cover to cover. What an education. Makes my conversations with Richard make so much more sense. I'm gonna build my leg Respo next week. So stoked.

wgp

08-16-2019, 09:53 PM

Clean39T

08-16-2019, 11:52 PM

This is simply an amazing read and one I’m happy to bring to the top for those who haven’t read it yet.
I’m on vacation and reading through every Pegoretti thread here over the days so far, as we approach the one year anniversary of his death :-(

Nice.

But this thread needs at least one photo..

https://www.sefiles.net/merchant/240/images/site/Emma12.JPG

Tickdoc

08-17-2019, 06:10 AM

First time seeing this post and I am a little confused.

Maybe I am short-legged long-torsoed, but the Reality of "I'm 5'9" and ride a 59" don't add up.

I'm 5'11" and regardless of contact points standover is my number one factor in how big a flat top frame I can fit. I have about an inch of freeway space on any given size 56 frame. Anything more and I am ball-teetering to stay afloat at rest.

I'm curious what the inseam is of the OP who is 5'9" and rides any flat tube road bike comfortably.

Am I missing something here?

ERK55

08-17-2019, 06:38 AM

Agreed.
I’m 5’11”+ and could not ride a level top tube 59.

thwart

08-17-2019, 07:32 AM

My first read of this thread as well. I miss 'dbrk'.

I had a 59 Peg for a yr or two (I was 5-10 at the time, now I'm 5-8.5... after my '15 crash, multiple spine fractures and neck fusion). I did OK on that bike, enjoyed the ride and it performed very well under me.

https://forums.thepaceline.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=63663&stc=1&d=1258519415

I have to say my 56 Duende feels like the 'right size', though.

https://forums.thepaceline.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=92860&stc=1&d=1333025435

Even moreso as I have become a bit more compact. :rolleyes:

Hilltopperny

08-17-2019, 07:40 AM

At 5'8 and a 32" inseam I was comfortable on my 54cm Duende, Mxxxxxo and Responsorium. I would likely be ok up to 56cm, but 58 would be a stretch.

Sent from my LGL423DL using Tapatalk

bigbill

08-17-2019, 07:49 AM

I've had a BLE since late 2006 when I bought it from SoCal. Last year I got a Falz fork from Jerk's place to replace the Reynolds Ouzo Pro. Falz is the fork it should have had all along. It more closely matches the rest of the bike in terms of stiffness and handling. When I had the frame repainted a few years ago, I had a FD hanger added which all BLE's had after 2014. I think it was a good call because the FD clamp is where I had paint issues. Now it just bolts up and the hanger is stainless.

sjbraun

08-17-2019, 10:02 AM

I stopped in at Lakeside Bicycles in Lake Oswego, OR last week. They had a beautiful selection of Pegorettis, maybe 15 different frames, several different models. They were stunning to look at; almost made me miss the Marcelo I sold a few years ago.

grateful

08-17-2019, 10:23 AM

I have been a member here since 2004. I too miss DBRK and his insight very much. What happened to DBRK? I missed his exodus.

ERK55

08-17-2019, 11:28 AM

I think it was 5-6 years ago that dbrk was selling off some of his bicycles; he had listed a couple in the classifieds. I bought one of them, a very nice mint Dave Kirk frameset made with Rene Herse lugs - don’t know whether dbrk had specified them or not.
Ironically I never built up the frame as the head tube is a bit short for my ageing back.
Come to think of it, the frame is pretty much a 56 square, smaller than the 59’s that Dr. Brooks apparently preferred.

Climb01742

08-17-2019, 11:59 AM

One note about Douglas (the OP): he is, among many other accomplishments, a yoga master, so his body's relationship to bike frames might vary from us mere mortals.;) Years ago, he gave me some yoga poses to do to aid my body and riding. The man is bendy.:):p

ernmony

09-21-2019, 10:17 PM

A colleague of mine told me about DP three years ago and said to check out for his custom frames but I didn't think much of it since I was not into steel and couldn't afford it. I didn't know he had cancer and may he RIP but I wanted to see what the hype was all about after he had passed.

I sought out any type of DP bike and found one here from a PL member. I'm 5'10" and ended up buying a 59cm Responsorium Ciavete on a whim. The member said if it did fit then he would refund my money. Fast forward four months later and I couldn't be happier. Yes, it's slighter large but I live in SF and climb these hills w/o any issues.

I've had aluminum and carbon in the past which were fine but I just enjoy the steel when riding these streets. I'm not into racing but just love riding and enjoy the scenery of the best city in the world.

I drank the Kool-aid and think others should too regardless of size ;)

Vonruden

09-22-2019, 04:54 AM

This thread needs a Luigino :)
http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj533/vonruden1/A96484CE-EB2B-46DD-8013-0D560B2638C9_zpsua5tms6l.jpg (http://s1266.photobucket.com/user/vonruden1/media/A96484CE-EB2B-46DD-8013-0D560B2638C9_zpsua5tms6l.jpg.html)

merckx

09-22-2019, 06:26 AM

paredown

09-22-2019, 07:44 AM

Found this thread from across the hall--Peg sizing was C-T-C for frames up to 57cm; larger frames were effectively Freuler frames with dropped top tubes...

So in theory a '59' would have that length TT but the issue of feeling as if the TT was too high to be comfortable would go away.

Still though, at DBRK's height the 59 would feel long unless you were flexible--I started to find 58.5 (the Colnago Freuler TT length on the larger frames) too long) and have settled in at 56-57...

Great thread--before my time and a good read.

https://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum/f2/pegoretti-dropped-top-tube-explanation-16159.html

dgauthier

09-22-2019, 10:37 AM

This is simply an amazing read and one I’m happy to bring to the top for those who haven’t read it yet.(...)

I didn't notice the date at first. For a moment I thought dbrk was posting again!

For those of us who've followed the Paceline through its many variations back to the Serotta forum and the Bicycle Fan Club, this is what makes the Paceline special. There is *so much* high quality information here. People like dbrk, the Jerk, Big Mac -- there are too many to name -- posted hundreds of threads like this.

:beer:

lavi

01-04-2023, 07:50 AM

BUMP! (credit to Clean for his text bump)

This here thread is how I remember this place from when I first joined. I was a relative youngster at 35 years old or so. As I type, I'm 51. Where did the years and miles go? I knew nothing then, and, reading this thread, I still know about the same.

The first few pages should be required reading with regard to how elevated and informational threads used to be. I also remember lots of ribbing along the lines of "your stem is too short". These days, we talk of VPN and other vagaries. Regardless, I love this place and its denizens. I'm saddened of the rift that tore things asunder. If I were King, I'd sew the URLs back together. The content was tooooo good. I cannot ever hope to be the type of poster as those from the first few pages. Pure frigging gold. We are fortunate to have several of these masters in our presence.

Knowing I've (g_d willing) got lots of miles left in my legs, I still cannot help but start to feel anxious about missing my younger, dumber body.

I will work my way through the Peg catalog. I have a buddy (believe it or not, it's not Clean) that currently holds a GGM and BLE. This thread paints those frames in a new light. Consider me curios.

RIP Round. Thank you for all you did and for being the person you were.

Hug those you love. Cherish Every Damn Mile.

AngryScientist

01-04-2023, 07:58 AM

Good bump!

You're right that this place holds a wealth of info and was (and still is) home to a lot of cool folks.

How can we re-elevate the conversation? Talk like adults.

I will do my part to help.

I may even pull my own Peg off the hook this weekend and take a spin.

Glad to see the peg fever lately in a sea of plastic disc bikes :)

AngryScientist

01-04-2023, 08:04 AM

It's also too bad Dr Brooks has seemingly lost interest in bicycles, he was a real wealth of knowledge.

It's my intention to get a group together in the Finger Lakes this summer to ride some rural miles on his old roads on good bikes with steel forks.

weisan

01-04-2023, 08:11 AM

BUMP!

This here thread is how I remember this place from when I first joined. I was a relative youngster at 35 years old or so. As I type, I'm 51. Where did the years and miles go?

lavi pal, I am just one year ahead of you.
I am still hoping to meet up with you and ride with you someday. I didn't make it to Oregon last year but the Santa Rosa cycling club is organizing another one in 2023, I hope I can make it this time.
This picture was taken at a fingerlake gathering hosted by dbrk pal. He was kind enough to let me borrow his Peg. Luigino. Oh gosh, I was so young then, still have my baby fat...

It's my intention to get a group together in the Finger Lakes this summer to ride some rural miles on his old roads on good bikes with steel forks.

Angry pal, you organize it, I will come!

Know how you really ride, I say!! To each his own!! Be comfortable with what you like!

dbrk

Master dbrk is right. I have come full circle in my journey. I am happy now.

AngryScientist

01-04-2023, 08:18 AM

Angry pal, you organize it, I will come!

excellent! I've got a plan coming together.

NHAero

01-04-2023, 08:27 AM

Interested! Sort of an East Coast Eroica?
If I gotta have a steel fork I guess it's the Bob Jackson. But I might put the light wheels from the Firefly on for that ride :)

excellent! I've got a plan coming together.

zap

01-04-2023, 09:17 AM

excellent! I've got a plan coming together.

Interested as well.

Many here I have not met. Others it's been what......15+ years.

Kirk007

01-04-2023, 12:50 PM

Me too. Moved to part time this year; the finger lakes are just north or where I grew up in Pennsylvania - a visit with bike could be cool!

rccardr

01-04-2023, 02:03 PM

excellent! I've got a plan coming together.

Oooooooh! Interested (assuming steel frame, steel fork and friction DT shifters are an acceptable transpo mode :banana:)

AngryScientist

01-04-2023, 02:06 PM

Excellent, there is enough interest in that I'll get planning.

Once plans get more solid, I will even contact Dr Brooks to see if he'd like to ramble with us.

R3awak3n

01-04-2023, 02:12 PM

Depending on when this is it might bring me out of retirement :)

jimoots

01-05-2023, 05:54 AM

What a fascinating time capsule post!

If anyone wants to donate / sell a peg… man I’m jonesing for one after reading this and other recent threads!

sjbraun

01-05-2023, 07:50 AM

Let me echo Lavi's comment on the wealth of information found on this forum. Based on discussions found here, I now own three bikes that I likely would not have known about without the wisdom shared by fellow Paceliners: a Hampsten Strada Bianca, a Black Mountain Cycles MonsterCross, and a Pegoretti- first a Marcelo, then later a Duende.

Each bike rides as well as forum members described. I think you all for pointing me toward these bikes.

Steve
Tucson

oldpotatoe

01-05-2023, 08:05 AM

Black Dog

01-05-2023, 09:20 AM