OT: Kitchen knives

[rpm]

Looking for new kitchen knives, basic set plus a set of steak knives.
Would like some advice on brands and shopping.

Thanks

[johnnymossville]

http://www.cutco.com/

My Mom and Dad have been using stuff from Cutco for many years and love them.

[dave thompson]

Good knives won't be cheap. Heinkel and Wusthoff are the two brands that are my favorites. The choice of a knife is pretty personal, much like a bike and you have to find the brand that fits you the best. The differences between brands can be great as regards to how they fit and how they handle. You should find a place that stocks a variety of knife brands so you can test drive them and find the one that suits you best.

[rain dogs]

I'm interested in this thread as well, as I am feeling like it is time to invest in quality knives.

I have been told the best for me (someone who cooks regularly/daily and cuts a ton ((primarily veg. diet)) and values quality) are:

Global
Henckels
Wusthof

The biggest question I've been asked is:

Are you interested in sharpening your own knives/getting them sharpened or not ?

[timto]

I picked up a global (http://mingwo.com/knives/global/cooks-knife-8.html) a couple years ago... i'm from a restaurant family with huge food exposure and the main cook in our household.

This knife is balanced, easy to clean, super sharp (bought a ceramic sharpener too) and easy to sharpen - just a few passes over the ceramic makes it razor sharp. I use it daily. I clean, dry and put it away after each use. I care for it like one would care for a quality tool.

It makes the full tang style knifes (cutco, henckels etc) feel coarse and unrefined and downright clumsy in comparison. At first I felt the knife was too sharp/thin. But now I wouldn't go back. Before we had a cutco set that was sturdy but again now get ZERO use.

My 2 cents.

[killacks]

I've been thinking the same thing as the OP, lately. Wish I had more helpful info. All I really know is that the good stuff costs big $$. I recently bought a Wusthoff Kitchen knife for a wedding gift. Real nice lookin knife. Heads up, Bed, Bath and Beyond carries that brand.

I used a handy 20% off mailer coupon I had laying around. Idk if they distribute those coupons everywhere, but they send them out just about every week here (southern cal).

Sidenote: my old roommate used to sell Cutco knives door to door. Her demo set was real sharp! Not sure about how they hold up, though.

Good luck

[AngryScientist]

a good set of knives can easily last a lifetime. the wife and i got most of ours when we first got married, and they're still like new, they will be far after i'm gone too. the brands mentioned here are all very good, but beware, Henkels and Wustov, in addition to making excellent knives, have lower end consumer knives that are not as well made.

we do not have a matched set at our house. we have a large butcher block that is stocked with individual knives that we like, as opposed to a "groupset".

go to a good kitchen store and put your hands on some quality knives, buy the ones that speak to you.

[tele]

http://www.lamsonsharp.com/

Have a couple of Lamson knives and very impressed. They are local to me: made in the USA. I have some Wusthoff but use the Lamson much more often.

[Ozz]

you will get better value buying individual knivest that you need....with a set you often end up with a couple knives you don't need. Cooks Illustrated just did a review of sets a couple months ago detailing this.

As mentioned, Henckels and Wustoff are both solid brands. Shun, Global, and Miyabi are also very great knives. You really have to find handle that feels good and a blade shape the suits you cutting style.

You only really need:

8" or 10" Chef knife
paring knife
bread knife (if you buy nice bread)
boning knife (if you eat much meat)
Sharpening steel

Once you get these, you can fill in with a slicer, carving fork, santuko

I have mainly Henckels Four Star knives, but also a Shun Ken Onion Chef Knife and a Shun Bob Kramer Chef. The Henckels 8" chef knife and the Ken Onion knife are my go-to knives for 90% of what I do. I would probably use my Bob Kramer more, but the blade is so wide it does not fit in my knife block, so it is not convenient to use. Beautiful knife though.

I have had most of my Henckels for 20+ years.

Shopping now, I would give the Zwilling Bob Kramer Carbon blade knives a serious look....pricey though.

Go to a good cooking store or knife shop and hold a few. Cut some veggies if they let you.... then decide.

[pdmtong]

Our Heinkel set was a major investment years ago and have performed beautifully. This is one area where I think it really is better to view as an investment in tools, and get the best you can afford now instead of going the cheaper route and then buying a second set to replace down the road.

[William]

Good knives won't be cheap. Heinkel and Wusthoff are the two brands that are my favorites. The choice of a knife is pretty personal, much like a bike and you have to find the brand that fits you the best. The differences between brands can be great as regards to how they fit and how they handle. You should find a place that stocks a variety of knife brands so you can test drive them and find the one that suits you best.

Mrs William gets upset if I touch her Heinkel's!!!

http://28.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_l2wd71vvuy1qaw14to1_400.gif


I leave them alone so my Ancestra doesn't go a missing. :crap:





William ;) :)

[torquer]

(bought a ceramic sharpener too)
Any recommendations or hints on what to look for in a sharpener?
Worth noting that the finest (Serotta-level) knives won't stay that way without sharpening.

[ORMojo]

+1 on buying individual knives.

I have really valued the knowledge & advice at several of our excellent small local cook's shops, and have bought individual knives from most of the makers mentioned above, based on a certain individual knife feeling right in my hand while testing it in the shop.

One of our favorite shops has a cooking class area, and they also use that to allow you to test any of their knives, and many other products. I also like the new sign they put at the knife-testing station a few months ago that says something along the lines of "If you allow your child to play with the knives, we will give them a triple mocha and a cuddly live puppy to take home."

[tannhauser]

My thinking:

10" Japanese chefs knife.

Japanese water sharpener.

Hit the blade lightly every day.

That will get you through almost every task.

[yakstone]

Above stated info on knives is pretty spot on. As noted most brands have the ferrari and the chevrolet edition so beware; there is more to it than just the brand alone.
The bigger piece is how will you keep them sharp. If you are looking for the best way, learn how to use a water stone, next best - an oil stone. Treat the knife as a surgical instrument, use it, wash it, put it away. Knives in sinks inevitably end up losing their edge or worse.
NEVER EVER use an electric powered sharpening device or take your knives somewhere to have them sharpened. Learn to keep them sharp yourself.
Invest in a couple of top quality steels and learn how to use them. You want the super fine models not the ones that look and feel like a file. Your steel will look and feel like it is a smooth piece of polished steel, which it is. Don't fall for the diamond steel line of BS. These only work correctly if you know what you are doing otherwise they will ruin your edge. I would suggest a nice ceramic steel and a super fine stainless steel, nothing shorter than 12", though I prefer 16" or18". After 30+ years as a butcher this is my 25 cents worth.
BTW - more people cut themselves steeling their knives than actually cutting with them. West Germany seems to produce the best knives.

[torquer]

This is an abstract of an article from a few years back:
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2008/11/24/081124fa_fact_oppenheimer
Full archived article is available to subscribers, but not sure anyway this is what you're looking for in the way of cutlery, this stuff is serious! Sort of like if a casual riding aquaintance asked for a bike recommendation, and you sent them to Richard Sachs for a CX rig.

By coincidence, Steve Hampsten, who spent some time in the kitchen as a pro, knew Kramer pretty well, and has bought knives from him. I can see how those two might share an interest in metalurgy and performance of the resulting product.

[tannhauser]

This is an abstract of an article from a few years back:
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2008/11/24/081124fa_fact_oppenheimer
Full archived article is available to subscribers, but not sure anyway this is what you're looking for in the way of cutlery, this stuff is serious! Sort of like if a casual riding aquaintance asked for a bike recommendation, and you sent them to Richard Sachs for a CX rig.

By coincidence, Steve Hampsten, who spent some time in the kitchen as a pro, knew Kramer pretty well, and has bought knives from him. I can see how those two might share an interest in metalurgy and performance of the resulting product.

Excellent. Thanks!

[jimcav]

Excellent. Thanks!

http://www.kramerknives.com/nyer-art.htm

i'd buy a kramer knife but spend all my disposable money on bike stuff (and we have some decent henckels that are fine)
before that we had dept store junk set of faberware or such--get good knives: it makes everything in the kitchen more fun and safer too

[staggerwing]

While there is truth to the adage "you get what you pay for" there are still values to be found. If you've only ever had inexpensive department store knives, start with a couple of the excellent, and relatively inexpensive Victorinox kitchen knives. Yes, there are stamped, not forged, which generally a slight step down in quality. But, they are properly thinned, well balanced, hold an excellent edge, and arrive sharp, ready to work out of the sleeve.

Yes, it is the same Victorinox that makes Swiss army knives. These used to be sold under their professional kitchen brand as Forschner, which you may still see around.

I do 90% of my chopping with this (http://www.amazon.com/Victorinox-Fibrox-7-Inch-Granton-Santoku/dp/B000QCPNWM/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1324404576&sr=8-3) 7-Inch Granton Edge Santoku design. Neither too big nor too small, and rather thin, which is good for delicate veggies, like tomatoes and mushrooms.

The best I've ever used is an old 10" Henkels chefs knife that my FIL picked up at a tag sale. Forged straight carbon steel. Fully oxidized and discolored, but sharpens beautifully and holds a wonderful edge. The size can give you a workout, but get in a rhythm, and you can easily power through a handful of carrots at a time.

[Ken Robb]

I have a set of old Gerber knives that were made in Portland,OR. back in the day and I like them fine. My father-in-law was a butcher and I inherited his knives. A couple of them are really "butcher" knives: bigger than you would find in most kitchens but good for those rare jobs like cutting steaks from a whole top sirloin or new york loin.

The knife that I use more than all the others is his old Chicago Cutlery boning knife. For knives that are excellent tools with no glitz at all Chicago Cutlery makes a huge assortment so you can get just what you want for your "set".

[climbgdh]

Since I'm north of the 49th I'll put in a plug for Grohmann knives which are made in Nova Scotia by a German family that immigrated to Canada about 60 years ago I believe. The full story is on the link to the website. Like most other companies they offer an expensive line-up & a cheaper one. Invest in the best you can afford. As several people have already said they will literally last a lifetime & make work in the kitchen much more pleasant. I've gradually accumulated almost a full set of their forged knives with rosewood handles. Wonderful products that only get better with age.

http://www.grohmannknives.com/index2.html

[Mtmooradian]

Have both tan ren and shun knives and love them both

[yakstone]

Kramer's stuff is really sweet, probably the Lamborghini of fine blades, and priced accordingly.

[echelon_john]

second and third the advice above about not buying a set. buy a nice chef's knife or santoku, 8", to start. a small (3.5"-4") paring knife, then maybe a longer (10") slicing knife. these three will get you through 95% of life in the kitchen, even if you cook a LOT.

artisanal types will probably slag this, but we've LOVED our sharpener; we bought it based on recommendations in Cooks Illustrated a couple of years ago and use it regularly. yes, i could probably learn to put a better, longer lasting edge on---but this thing is so easy and quick. Between this and a steel in the drawer to hit the blade before use between sharpenings, you're golden.

link here:
http://www1.bloomingdales.com/shop/product/chefschoice-professional-knife-sharpener-platinum?ID=111165&cm_mmc=Froogle_pla_pe-_-adtype-pla-_-target-21882504424-_-kw-&gclid=CK2Hkqmvka0CFUio4AodNAKRGg

[jimcav]

our henckels knives came with a small sharpener you hold with left hand and pull the blade through with the right--seems to be 2 small discs that the blade slides across--i figured it is good since it came with the knives, but is it not?

thanks

[tannhauser]

A note about chefs/santukos: like bikes their length is a personal preference. Shorter people with smaller hands tend to like shorter blades, 6-8". Giant pro chef I know wields a 12" chefs like nothing.

Comfy handles too: some don't like metal, some like wood.

Depends on who is getting it as a gift.

[tannhauser]

our henckels knives came with a small sharpener you hold with left hand and pull the blade through with the right--seems to be 2 small discs that the blade slides across--i figured it is good since it came with the knives, but is it not?

thanks

Not specific enough - what is the make and model?

[Ti Designs]

Lost my first Wustof set in a break-up, the second set went in the divorce, I'm all done with store bought knives. I did some reading about knives and how the edge of a custom kitchen knife follows how it's drawn by it's owner. I started out with cardboard and came to some knife shapes that would keep the cutting edge on the board the way I use them. I then went ahead and purchased some forged blade steel and ground them to my own specifications. Like all my other projects, it took way too long and for a while there were bits and pieces of knives all over the house. I posted pics here years ago when I finished the set - it's kinda nice...

The one knife I don't have yet is my sashimi blade. A good friend (who's also on this forum) forged a blade for me, but the edge formed cracks. When any sushi knife cracks it gets tossed. The sashimi knife is a special case because unlike other japanese knives which use a low bevel angle from both sides, it's only sharpened to one side. This means one whole side has to be hardened tool steel while the forged layers build up thickness on the other side. If this blade does work out, I'm going to make the handle form in clay, mold it to my hand and then copy it in solid titanium. You don't see that every day!

[rpm]

Wow, lots of good advice. We'll definitely be buying individual knives. There are lots of department stores and cooks stores here, including a Wusthoff outlet.

The one set we'd like is steak knives, since I'm from Montana, and I do love my steak. Any advice on steak knives in particular?

[Andrewlcox]

Any recommendations or hints on what to look for in a sharpener?
Worth noting that the finest (Serotta-level) knives won't stay that way without sharpening.

I recently bought one of these Work Sharp knife sharpener (http://www.worksharptools.com/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=90) and have sharpened all my knives, my friends knives and my coworkers knives. It is dead simple and works. I turned a worthless knife into a very sharp kitchen knife.

There are other techniques that will produce a finer edge but for the speed and simplicity, Iv'e never been able to match the results.

For the OP, if you have a decent set of knives already, you might fall back in love with them if you have them professionally sharpened at a place like this. (http://www.theedgemasters.com/)

Good luck,
Andy

[Ozz]

Any recommendations or hints on what to look for in a sharpener?Worth noting that the finest (Serotta-level) knives won't stay that way without sharpening.
The name "ChefsChoice" on the front. :banana:

Seriously, for home electric sharpeners, they are the best. But the best sharpening is done on a set of stones or professionally. I choose professional....

I have the "2 disk" sharpener mentioned above....it is a Henckels brand, and has opposing sets of steel and ceramic disks that put a hollow ground edge on the blade....ouch. I try to avoid using it.

You really only need to "sharpen" your knives about once a year. However, "honing" your blades on a steel, a couple times everytime you use the is a must.

Oh, and get a good cutting board as well....I use plastic ones that go in the dishwasher, and get replaced annually.

[jimcav]

Not specific enough - what is the make and model?
twinsharp maybe--it was a few years ago?
here is what it looks like
thanks

[jimcav]

I have the "2 disk" sharpener mentioned above....it is a Henckels brand, and has opposing sets of steel and ceramic disks that put a hollow ground edge on the blade....ouch. I try to avoid using it.
.

is it bad for the knife? or is hollow ground not a good method?

[Kontact]

I prefer the Japanese grind to European.

Shun is another name I'd compare to Global.

My favorite knife that I got a deal on was Calphalon Katana. Got one at TJ Max for $30 instead of $80.

[Ozz]

is it bad for the knife? or is hollow ground not a good method?
it just removes more metal than you need too and produces a thinner weaker edge...meaning you need to sharpen it more often.

I'll use mine if I need to...but prefer to pro-sharpen.

That sharper is "idiot-proof", however you do need to keep it at the edge of your counter, cuz the blade will drop down as you pull it thru the sharpener....bad for knife if you have granite counters...bad for counter if you have laminate or composition.

[Louis]

Kramer's stuff is really sweet, probably the Lamborghini of fine blades, and priced accordingly.

You know you're at the top of the heap when you can set these sorts of rules to sell your products:

1. The Lottery

We select names from the email list chronologically and randomly approximately every six weeks. We will email you if your name is selected.

If we pull your name then you get to design your own knife at current pricing--you choose the type of steel, the pattern, and your own block of wood.

No payment has to be made to participate in the Lottery.

2. Custom Ready-Mades

Occasionally we will have finished custom knives for sale.

These will be a mixture of straight steel and simple pattern Damascus. We're doing this to make more knives available and streamline the production process.

We will notify the email list when these are available with instructions.

3. Auctions - Best of the Best

The most extraordinary pieces that we're making are auctioned on our website. To participate, you must be a member. You can join here.

[jimcav]

it just removes more metal than you need too and produces a thinner weaker edge...meaning you need to sharpen it more often.

I'll use mine if I need to...but prefer to pro-sharpen.

That sharper is "idiot-proof", however you do need to keep it at the edge of your counter, cuz the blade will drop down as you pull it thru the sharpener....bad for knife if you have granite counters...bad for counter if you have laminate or composition.

it is super convenient, but i suppose i should learn how to sharpen them with a stone--i have a compsoite wetstone for my wood chisels, but it has been years since i did that and i think it is a different technique
jim

[54ny77]

you gotta be f'ing kidding me:

$2700 for a kitchen knife? now that's epic.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Bob-Kramer-Knives-Original-10-Chefs-Knife-5-Paring-Knife-/150719421030?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item231793da66

a family member of mine was a master chef who cooked for presidents, kings and queens, and could make a mean steak sandwich with whatever was around. don't think i ever saw a $2700 chef knife in his kitchen.... :bike:

You know you're at the top of the heap when you can set these sorts of rules to sell your products:

[tannhauser]

twinsharp maybe--it was a few years ago?
here is what it looks like
thanks

I'm sure it's fine. I had a Henkels that was ok, broke the tip off doing something I wasn't supposed to. Henkels were (are?) "ice-hardened", not forged so I think the result is a little more brittle blade.

German grinds are 20 degrees I think, Japanese like 15 on the chefs knives. The taper is longer so the blade is sharper, which is relevant if the deeper you're cutting into stuff like cantaloupe or watermelon. Makes a very good slicer too if you keep it sharp.

You can put a Japanese grind on a German knife, but the whole balance vs. weight thing is best if one just buys a Japanese knife.

I've had, besides a Henkels, a Global (never use it any more), and a Sabatier high carbon. Pretty much the only knife I use now is my Shun. Never have had to have it professionally sharpened or wet stoned, and I cook all meals at home. Had it for like 6-8 yrs. The sharpener I referenced earlier is basically like your Henkels sharpener but is two wet stones set at the exact angle.

Just a brilliant combo.

[Louis]

you gotta be f'ing kidding me:

$2700 for a kitchen knife? now that's epic.


That one's a bargain compared to this one. (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Never-used-Bob-Kramer-Original-Custom-Damascus-Steel-10-Euro-Chef-Knife-w-COA-/190604719784?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c60ed36a8) BIN = $6400

This is an original Bob Kramer custom made Damascus steel 10" Chef's knife. This was made in his workshop in Olympia, Washington. There is at least a 2 year waiting list to purchase one of his knives. This knife has never been used and was taken out of its case so that I could take pictures. I have tried to take as many pictures as possible to show the detail of the piece. Here are more details:

* Handmade by Bob Kramer himself
* Never used and is in the original packaging
* 10" Chef's Knife (Euro style) with Cocobolo wood handle
* The wood cover is also made with Cocobolo
* Comes with certificate of authenticity
* Comes with original carrying case

Bob recently auctioned 2 of his knives. One similar knife went for $18,000. Click here to view the auction results.

[tannhauser]

One other thing about Japanese vs. German knives is Japanese knives are built to slice through stuff, from the Samurai sword tradition. German knives are built to slice and chop and can cut through light poultry bones easily using the heel.

I don't do poultry with the Shun.

[mister]

thought i needed some nice fancy knives
then bought some whetstones to fix the blade on a santoku that came in a calphalon set
the blade was ground with a rather large bump in the belly

after learning how to actually sharpen the knives i realized a few things
learning to sharpen a descent knife gets your 75% of the way there
pretty much use a chef's knife for 90% of the stuff i do
don't like the 5" santoku after all

will get a nice 210mm gyuto soon
probably a petty knife soon too
maybe a 180mm nakiri or something...eventually

[Elefantino]

Don't really know jack sprat about knives, but we got a really nice Henckels set as a wedding present and they still are razor sharp after 30 years.

Just got a Guy Fiere Knuckle Sandwich knife as a gift. Not as good.

[forrestw]

The one knife I don't have yet is my sashimi blade. A good friend (who's also on this forum) forged a blade for me, but the edge formed cracks. When any sushi knife cracks it gets tossed. The sashimi knife is a special case because unlike other japanese knives which use a low bevel angle from both sides, it's only sharpened to one side. This means one whole side has to be hardened tool steel while the forged layers build up thickness on the other side. If this blade does work out, I'm going to make the handle form in clay, mold it to my hand and then copy it in solid titanium. You don't see that every day!
Sashimi knife v2 is underway, I've completed welding 4 layers and hope to find time to forge the blank in January. This time I won't be effing up the hardening step and there will be no cracks :-).

[DRZRM]

I have a mixed set I've picked up over time. Most are Shun Classics, which are great knives. They are narrower at the blade than the German knives (16 degrees instead of 21 iirc), they are very sharp, and hold an edge well, but the narrower taper needs sharpening a bit more often, a couple of times a year with a Japanese whetstone, and regular use of a honing steel, I also use the Shun. I use my 10" chefs knive and a 4" paring knife for 90% of my cutting.

I also like the LamsonSharps, great serrated bread knife.

This is a nice deal for 7" Santoku, which is my wife's favorite size. I got one for my brother-in-law for X-mas this year.

http://www.amazon.com/Shun-Premier-Santoku-Knife-7-Inch/dp/B003B66YK0/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1324468783&sr=8-5

[AngryScientist]

a family member of mine was a master chef who cooked for presidents, kings and queens, and could make a mean steak sandwich with whatever was around. don't think i ever saw a $2700 chef knife in his kitchen....

of course not. those knives are more for collectors and real blade afficianados than anything else. functionally, there's nothing a $3k knife is going to do that a $150 knife, well edged will not.

[Bertleman]

I second the Lamson Sharp recommendation. Made in USA by family craftsman. Difference between small custom bike builder and factory built bikes.
While your at it pick up one of these http://www.lamsonsharp.com/store/p/844-3-x-6-Chef-s-Slotted-Turner-right-hand.html best kitchen utensil I own. They make a left handed one too

[Dekonick]

Sashimi knife v2 is underway, I've completed welding 4 layers and hope to find time to forge the blank in January. This time I won't be effing up the hardening step and there will be no cracks :-).

Dang! You stay busy...

Custom knives, glass blowing, etc...

:)

[Lewym]

NEVER EVER . . . . take your knives somewhere to have them sharpened.

Don't agree with that if you use a top pro. Send your knives to Seattle Knife Sharpening (http://seattleknifesharpening.com/). Trained by Bob Kramer, same quality of work. Amazing turn around time. Your knives will never be sharper.

But Yakstone is right to beware. . . not all places do a quality job.

[August]

I have two plain steel Kramers, and its not just the fact that Bob built them by hand that makes them excellent knives. Read the New Yorker piece about Bob's research into steel alloys and heat treatment--he had been developing the best possible blade steel for years before I first talked to him in 2003. And now you can buy a production knife (http://www.surlatable.com/category/cat690425/Bob-Kramer-Carbon-Steel?cleanSession=true&pCat=CAT-5781) with the same blade steel and shape as a custom Kramer. Three hundred dollars for an eight inch chef's knife is perfectly reasonable. Take the time to learn how to sharpen a carbon steel knife with water stones, and you'll be very impressed. And the knife will last a long, long time.

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2230/2261904328_d5814b6b64_b.jpg

[forrestw]

of course not. those knives are more for collectors and real blade afficianados than anything else. functionally, there's nothing a $3k knife is going to do that a $150 knife, well edged will not.
I have made 2 knives that would pass the 'master bladesmith' test referred to in the New Yorker article, that was ... 35 years ago, they were 1000 layers of high carbon tool steel and ductile wrought iron.

I have a billet of 1500 layer steel in progress that has a hundred hours of work in it. If I were selling knives from that, $3000 per would be about right.

[forrestw]

Dang! You stay busy...

Custom knives, glass blowing, etc...

:)
been too effing busy to ride beyond commuting of late, so yeah.

[Spinner]

... sounds like a law firm.

We currently have multiple Henkels, Wusthofs and others. Prefer Wusthof because the finish work on the handles (at least those with wood) is better than Henkel (notice filler used between wood and metal).

Am now jonesing to buy some Lamson products.

Currently have one Cutco that my wife bought from an enterprising lad. It is wicked sharp but does not provide that best hand feel.

The sharpest cutting tool that I own is an American-made cleaver that I inherited. I'd guess that is 80 years old and you can put a razor edge on this puppy with a few licks of a steal. It is a perfect tool for cutting a pizza on a board.

When I started my first job out of college (yikes, 1977), I bought a nice wood block and 5 Case knives. They are made of stainless and difficult to sharpen. They look and feel good though. Now, I really only use the 12 inch cerated bread knife that works great when kept sharp.

[khjr]

I've been thinking of getting a Santoku to augment my go-to 8" Henckels chef's knife. My thinking is that the hollow ground side would be faster for thin slicing vegetables (i.e.. they wouldn't stick to blade) and that the blade might be better for thin slicing beef across the grain (i.e. holding a steak down with my palm to slice it into thinner steaks...) when I'm cuttting up a steak for stir fry.

Can those of you with Santokus comment on the usefulness of this knife in your sets?

[Dekonick]

Hand made all the way.

http://www.nativewayonline.com/knifast.htm

;)

[Squint]

I got a Wicked Edge sharpener awhile ago. Regular sharpeners usually only do a so-so job but also take off a lot more metal than necessary. Sharpeners that fix the sharpening angle typically achieve the best results. You can also get a microscope to see how the process is coming along.

http://sharpeningtechniques.blogspot.com/

[Louis]

Hand made all the way.

http://www.nativewayonline.com/knifast.htm

;)

Real men don't bother with this newfangled stuff with sharp edges. Mass and strength is the way to go:

http://www.salt-lake-services.com/services/images/3DTutor/brute_shadowbox_19.jpg

[Ozz]

...Can those of you with Santokus comment on the usefulness of this knife in your sets?
My Henckel Santoku was my first "real" knife...my Mom gave it to me when I moved out after college...great knife...essentially a chef knife/veggie cleaver combo...good for all around work.

I prefer my chef knife for most tasks now....not sure why...a little longer blace maybe....blade has a slight curve vs. santoku nearly flat blade maybe? You have to use them to know what fits how you like to cut...

:beer:

[zetroc]

I use my 240mm MAC for most things now. Not fancy, but it holds an edge and gets the job done.

http://macknife.com/kitchen/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.pbv.v2.tpl&product_id=34&category_id=1&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=9 (MAC Professional)

(insert Bobby Darin joke)

[Ken Robb]

Yesterday I gave my knives a real workout. I bought a 13lb. country ham (I love that stuff) and decided to cut it up uncooked. The rind was up to 1" thick in places. My razor-sharp Chicago Cutlery boning knife was the one essential. My razor-sharp slicers and butcher knives were not up to piercing the rind to start the slicing. I was using my steel after each slice. Now I know why pre-cut center slices cost so much more per pound. :)

[Likes2ridefar]

Anyone use a ceramic knife by kyocera?

I've a set of Shun classic knives and they've been fantastic. They look really cool too!

I've sharpened them once over a period of 7 years about 2 years ago.

The chef's 8" is my favorite while my wife with much smaller hands prefers the smaller blades that came with the set.

[DogpawSlim]

...Can those of you with Santokus comment on the usefulness of this knife in your sets?

I have two 8 inch 4 Star Henckels Santokus. One has the thickness of a chef's, and one is thin and fluted.

The thick one is more of a cleaver that is too small to have any real power, and can't really chop because it has no belly. The thin one is a better chopper but, again, it can't be rocked because it has no belly.

Its usefulness depends on your chopping style, I guess. If you pick the blade up, (thin) Santoku's are great. If you rock the knife, go for a chef's. If I were assembling a full set as opposed to buying one complete, I would personally skip the Santoku.

[MartyE]

I have Henkles but don't use them much since getting a Shun 6inch chefs knife
which just seems to 'fit'.
Check out the Hattori knives here:

http://japanesechefsknife.com/products.html

Marty

[Squint]

I have two ceramic knives. They're now duller than any of my cheap steel knives that I've sharpened. They've also accumulated chips over the years. It's better to get a decent steel knife and a good sharpener.

[Bob Ross]

my old roommate used to sell Cutco knives door to door. Her demo set was real sharp! Not sure about how they hold up, though.

I still have the Cutco paring knife that my parents bought in 1965 (our next door neighbor was a Cutco door-to-door salesman) and with just a few pass over the sharpening steel once every 4 or 5 years, it's remained as lethal as it was when I was a wide-eyed 4-year-old marvelling at how it sliced through anything.

But the Wustoff chef's knife we got for our wedding is the real shiznet.

[choke]

I'm another Wusthof (Classic) user. I think they're well made for the price and they hold a good edge. FWIW I have a thing for knives so I have quite a few....even more than I do bicycles.

For a sharpener I'd suggest a Spyderco Sharpmaker. It's very easy to use and does an excellent job. If you really want to get them sharp nothing beats the old fashioned way....with a strop.

Can those of you with Santokus comment on the usefulness of this knife in your sets? I have a 10 piece set and I'd say I use the Santoku about 80% of the time. I could probably get by with just it and maybe a 3-4" paring knife.

[Ti Designs]

Sashimi knife v2 is underway, I've completed welding 4 layers and hope to find time to forge the blank in January. This time I won't be effing up the hardening step and there will be no cracks :-).

Just got the 1-1/8" CP-ELI titanium rod for the handle, surplus from an old friend at Raytheon - not sure I want to know where it came from...

I've seen Bob Cramer's handles, impressive work - I'll have to step my own work up to the next level. I'm working on CP Ti with dovetailed wood inserts so it'll be strong as possible but not as cold to the touch. I can do overkill as well as the next guy...

[R2D2]

I'll take Henkels over Shun any day of the week.
Much better steel. While Shun may look nice they don't hold up. And Shun dropped their free knife sharpening. Probably because they don't hold an edge very well and people had to use the service.
Now you have to pay to send them off to be sharpened. That's not what was promised when purchased.

[Likes2ridefar]

I'll take Henkels over Shun any day of the week.
Much better steel. While Shun may look nice they don't hold up. And Shun dropped their free knife sharpening. Probably because they don't hold an edge very well and people had to use the service.
Now you have to pay to send them off to be sharpened. That's not what was promised when purchased.

I've had the exact opposite experience.

[DRZRM]

I did not know they changed policy. That is disappointing, especially if you don't sharpen your own knives.

The reason that they require more regular sharpening is not that they use lower quality steel, but the angle on their blades is much sharper, thus narrower, thus more delicate, than the German steel. Their blades are sharpened at 16 degrees, while the German knives are sharpened near 21 degrees IIRC. As that happens on both sides of the knife, there is a difference of 10 degrees between the edges. The German knives are literally blunter, thus they hold their edge longer. Try cutting with both in a knife store, the Shuns are like a scalpel. Is the higher effort for upkeep worth it? Up to you, but it is not about quality.

I'll take Henkels over Shun any day of the week.
Much better steel. While Shun may look nice they don't hold up. And Shun dropped their free knife sharpening. Probably because they don't hold an edge very well and people had to use the service.
Now you have to pay to send them off to be sharpened. That's not what was promised when purchased.

[djg]

Maybe this should go without saying on this type of board, but these are all the opinions of an amateur cook -- an enthusiastic one who pays attention, takes some care, and gets good reviews -- but an amateur nonetheless. And I'm not, and do not hope to be, part of the knife maven crowd.

Somebody asked about ceramic knives. I've tried a couple and hated them. It's not a lifetime edge, or even a 1-year edge, and you cannot really maintain it on your own. So if it's for daily use, I have to ask myself what the point is, even before I realize that I don't like the feel of the thing. And I don't. But to each his or her own.

Several folks have made a very reasonable suggestion to buy pieces one at a time. That makes good sense, but suggests that a person is going to find his or her ideal knife after a bit of looking around, and maybe a couple of short test drives through potatoes at a SLT, or WS, or maybe a knife specialty store. Maybe not. Here's the flip side: find a special deal or a sale on a small set of something like Wusthof classic knives, and a person might get a high quality 8" chef's knife, a paring knife, and a bread knife (and maybe a boning knife) for the price of a chef's knife. Ultimately you might well want to add a slicing/carving knife that's longer and a bit more flexible than your chef's knife, maybe a boning knife, maybe a cleaver -- depends what you do. You don't need everything on day one because, really, you can do just about everything with a chef's knife, if it's sharp. If you identify, in advance, that these feel decent to you, are of appropriate size and weight, etc., you'll have good starter knives that are good knives and not hard to maintain. You can either keep them for life, and augment as you see the need, or replace them, one at a time, as you come to understand what you'd like different in another good knife. You know, spend something like 150 bucks or so for a good starter set and they might be your go-to knives forever or might end up being very good back-up pieces if you find yourself sampling 300-dollar Kramer factory knives, various Japanese knives, etc. Honestly, 2 or 3 hundred bucks or more for a Chef's knife that you use every day for 20 or 30 years, and that seems perfect to you in a way that others don't, is kind of a bargain. If you really know that's what you want. But do you? Get a German steel for German knives. This is for honing, not sharpening.

My wife had some Henckels knives when I met her. I've never been crazy about them, but that's more to do with feel than a clear sense of objective defects in the knives. I've had a set of Wusthof classic knives for more than 25 years. I still use them. I picked up one of their small Ikon santoku knives 3 or 4 years ago and it's been handy as a sort of large paring knife/utility knife.

I've tried a few Japanese knives -- actually bought and then returned a Shun because it felt a little too fine and brittle to me (I'm using "brittle" subjectively here -- I'm not suggesting that it was prone to breaking, just that it felt a little tinny and wobbly to me when chopping). I ended up with a couple of Miyabi knives -- bought the 10" chef's first and later the 5" utility knives. I bought the "fusion" models because I liked the feel of them -- really, decided that for now a sort of cross between a Western knife and a Japanese knife and that they actually delivered in that regard. I could do without the damascus blade for something simpler, but so far I've been pretty happy with these. Anybody shopping might already know this, but the harder core steels used in many Japanese knives can take a very fine edge, and hold it a surprisingly long time, but are a little more particular on honing and sharpening, when one gets around to sharpening.

Bread knives: if it doesn't come in a set, I don't know why somebody would sweat this -- certainly not starting out. Something inexpensive like a Wusthof silverpoint or a Victorinox will do the job quite well for 20 or 30 bucks -- get two if you want.

If somebody really is contemplating one of the hand-held "fool-proof" (not really) sharpeners with a plastic handle -- such as the henckels pictured earlier in this thread -- I think that Chef's Choice makes a couple of models that are head and shoulders above many similar looking items. Look for reviews to see which ones. As with all sharpeners, these ought not to be over-used.

[Ti Designs]

I'll take Henkels over Shun any day of the week.
Much better steel.


I know one of the materials guys at Kershaw Shun's parent company, I've gotten sample steel and used blanks from both Kershaw and Henkles. I also have to disagree there. Shun's change in policy is simply about growth and sustainability. The more knives made the more are out there needing service. The production facility used to produce their layered steel hasn't grown much over the years, but they have picked up lots of retail outlets and internet sales are booming. The only negative thing I have to say about Kershaw/Shun is that they let Ken Onion get away. His designs in the Shun line-up were unmatched in function and good looks. Most people are drawn to the big chef's knife (which I think is a bit too much steel) but the smaller prep knives are amazing. I now carry a Columbia River made Ken Onion ball bearing folding knife with me, it's too nice for words.

[tannhauser]

I know one of the materials guys at Kershaw Shun's parent company, I've gotten sample steel and used blanks from both Kershaw and Henkles. I also have to disagree there. Shun's change in policy is simply about growth and sustainability. The more knives made the more are out there needing service. The production facility used to produce their layered steel hasn't grown much over the years, but they have picked up lots of retail outlets and internet sales are booming. The only negative thing I have to say about Kershaw/Shun is that they let Ken Onion get away. His designs in the Shun line-up were unmatched in function and good looks. Most people are drawn to the big chef's knife (which I think is a bit too much steel) but the smaller prep knives are amazing. I now carry a Columbia River made Ken Onion ball bearing folding knife with me, it's too nice for words.

The Onion knives were nice but a bit too ornate for me.

Yeah, if you use a Japanese chefs as a cleaver, like a German knife, it's not as durable.

Once meant to slice, the other makes a decent slicer and chopper. You aren't using a Japanese knife correctly if you think Shun makes an inferior product. It's a bit laughable to blame the knife and not the user.

[tannhauser]

I did not know they changed policy. That is disappointing, especially if you don't sharpen your own knives.



You never need to get it sharpened professionally if you use the water sharpener diligently.

[djg]

The Onion knives were nice but a bit too ornate for me.

Yeah, if you use a Japanese chefs as a cleaver, like a German knife, it's not as durable.

Once meant to slice, the other makes a decent slicer and chopper. You aren't using a Japanese knife correctly if you think Shun makes an inferior product. It's a bit laughable to blame the knife and not the user.

On the last point, maybe, but maybe a bit complicated. They have many specialized knives and maybe one shouldn't expect any of them to fit the bill of a Western chef's knife. On the other hand, several of these companies -- Shun included -- are marketing Gyuto style knives as Chef's knives in Western markets. I'd be the first to say that my unhappiness with my Shun experience was about a poor fit between the style of the knife and my personal preference, and not a defect in the knife. The knife seemed very well made, at least within my limited ability to tell. Certainly the blade was very well finished and super sharp right out of the box -- beautiful slicing. On the other hand, to say it's laughable that people with Western knife skills would try to use knives marketed to them, in US shops, as chef's knives as . . . well, chef's knives, in the western sense, is maybe its own species of unfair.

[SEABREEZE]

This is why I went with Cutco

All Products Are Backed By The
CUTCO FOREVER GUARANTEE
At CUTCO, we stand behind our products with a FOREVER satisfaction guarantee. We want every CUTCO customer to be a satisfied customer FOREVER. The guarantee has several important elements.

FOREVER PERFORMANCE GUARANTEE

•If at any time you are not completely satisfied with the performance of your CUTCO product, we will correct the problem or replace the product.
•Simply send the product with an explanatory note to the address below.

FOREVER SHARPNESS GUARANTEE

•CUTCO knives with the Double-D® edge will remain sharp for many years, but after extended use they may need sharpening.
•For sharpening of Double-D® or straight-edged knives, send them along with a return shipping and handling fee of $6.00 (1-3 items) or $9.00 (4 or more items) to the CUTCO address below.

FOREVER REPLACEMENT SERVICE AGREEMENT FOR MISUSE OR ABUSE

•Should you damage your CUTCO through misuse or abuse, we will replace the item for one half of the current retail price plus shipping/handling and tax.
•Send the product with an explanatory note to the CUTCO address below.

15-DAY UNCONDITIONAL MONEY BACK GUARANTEE

•If at any time within fifteen (15) days after receipt of your CUTCO you are not satisfied with your purchase for any reason you may get a full refund of your purchase price by contacting CUTCO Customer Service at the address below.
•Engraved or monogrammed products cannot be returned under the Unconditional Money Back Guarantee. All other aspects of the Forever Guarantee do apply.

The CUTCO FOREVER GUARANTEE is intended solely for consumer/in-home use.

CUSTOMER SERVICE PLEDGE
At CUTCO, our pledge is to guarantee our customers
100% satisfaction.


CUTCO Customer Service
322 Houghton Avenue
Olean, New York 14760
service@cutco.com
1-800-828-0448
(US) CUTCO Customer Service
2172 Wyecroft Road, Unit 1
Oakville, Ontario L6L 6R1
serviceca@cutco.com
1-800-361-8800
(Canada)

[djg]

This is why I went with Cutco

All Products Are Backed By The
CUTCO FOREVER GUARANTEE

. . .



ok, but really, the big chain kitchen stores (SLT, WS, etc.) also take things back if you are not happy with them, and really, how many decent forged knives break in normal use? Everything out there requires some upkeep -- regular honing, which is easy and fast, and infrequent sharpening. I'd say the basic set of Wusthof or Henckels or whatever is on special at Costco this week should easily last a lifetime with a modicum of care, and I don't mean babying. I'm not saying what you should prefer, and I'm not even sure I've seen a cutco knife (about which I have no opinion), but it's hard to think of an item where a lifetime warranty might be less valuable.

[EvanOT]

I haven't read any of the threads but ill say this.
I cook for a living, so my knives are obviously moderately important to me.
Cut Co are some of the worst knives ive ever handled.
The ergonomics are terrible, the quality of the steel poor, and they don't hold an edge.
The warranty thing is just a marketing ploy, odds are you will never break your knife unless you're doing something it was not intended for anyway, and in a typical at home kitchen with regular honing a decent knife will keep its edge for at least a year before needed to be professionally sharpened.

The best knife is one that fits your hand and that you feel comfortable with.
What I tell everyone is that when you're looking for a knife, go to a place that has a large knife selection and hold each one in your hand, find which one you like best...then buy it online for the cheapest price.

[Dekonick]

ok, but really, the big chain kitchen stores (SLT, WS, etc.) also take things back if you are not happy with them, and really, how many decent forged knives break in normal use? Everything out there requires some upkeep -- regular honing, which is easy and fast, and infrequent sharpening. I'd say the basic set of Wusthof or Henckels or whatever is on special at Costco this week should easily last a lifetime with a modicum of care, and I don't mean babying. I'm not saying what you should prefer, and I'm not even sure I've seen a cutco knife (about which I have no opinion), but it's hard to think of an item where a lifetime warranty might be less valuable.

Never used a Cutco. I bought a set of Gunter Wilhelm knives for a lot less than the others (Wusthof, Henckels, Chicago Cutlery etc...) and like them. Well made, 440c steel, balanced etc. They suck if you don't use a 'pinch grip' but for anyone who knows how to wield a knife, they are nice. Better knives exist, but bang for buck these are nice and guranteed for life.

http://topkitchenknives.net/gunter-wilhelm-cutlery-set-review

I almost always use the steel every time I grab a knife - and my knives are always sharp because of this. I also wash each knife after every use. I suspect that my knives work well for this reason. A knife is only as good as the care it gets... like bikes, maintenance is important.

[Louis]

Last night I had some time to burn before a movie started at the local mall ("Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy" I'd give it 4/5 stars) so I wandered through the Sur la Table and the Williams Sonoma. It was interesting that in both places the only folks in the Cutlery areas were guys...

[Kontact]

I haven't read any of the threads but ill say this.
I cook for a living, so my knives are obviously moderately important to me.
Cut Co are some of the worst knives ive ever handled.
The ergonomics are terrible, the quality of the steel poor, and they don't hold an edge.
The warranty thing is just a marketing ploy, odds are you will never break your knife unless you're doing something it was not intended for anyway, and in a typical at home kitchen with regular honing a decent knife will keep its edge for at least a year before needed to be professionally sharpened.

The best knife is one that fits your hand and that you feel comfortable with.
What I tell everyone is that when you're looking for a knife, go to a place that has a large knife selection and hold each one in your hand, find which one you like best...then buy it online for the cheapest price.
They are also rather homely.

[Louis]

go to a place that has a large knife selection and hold each one in your hand, find which one you like best...then buy it on line for the cheapest price.

Would you go to your LBS to try on shoes, then leave and buy them on line?

I'm more than happy to support my LBS and buy the shoes from them.

IMO the same ought to apply to your LFS (Local Foodie Store)

[Ti Designs]

Would you go to your LBS to try on shoes, then leave and buy them on line?


You have no idea how often that happens. It's like saying to the staff at the shop that they are of no value, yet you still go there. The prices on-line are lower for exactly this reason, if you don't want to pay for the service, don't use it.

[verticaldoug]

Funny. As long as I keep the blade sharp, I am pretty happy to use any knife as long as it is for the right purpose. Any knife with a dull blade sucks.

[djg]

Last night I had some time to burn before a movie started at the local mall ("Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy" I'd give it 4/5 stars) so I wandered through the Sur la Table and the Williams Sonoma. It was interesting that in both places the only folks in the Cutlery areas were guys...

Stereos are so 20th Century. It's a new gear thing. (Which doesn't mean that a good knife, well maintained -- sharp -- is not a key tool if you are spending time in the kitchen.)

There are, of course, women who care a great deal about their knives. But the first one I knew who was really particular was a cooking teacher who didn't go knife shopping on any sort of regular basis -- just took really good care of the old (true) Sabatier knives that she had chosen way back when.

[mister]

^ http://thebestthings.com/knives/sabatier.htm

[NHAero]

I'm not knowledgeable about knives so this is merely a curiosity to add in to the thread.

My dad was a superb cook both professionally and at home. In his younger days he was a machinist. His uncle, my great uncle, was a railroad mechanic and could make or fix anything. They got the idea that they wanted to make a knife that would never need sharpening (note to pedants - I'm not claiming this was a good idea!) so they got a couple of blanks of tungsten carbide and Uncle Izzy made a knife out of one. They didn't make the second because making the first was too darn much work :-)

Both of these people are long gone, but the knife, stamped 1952, its year of manufacture, was the one personal item I got when my dad died and I do love to look at it from time to time. It's very sharp, but I don't actually use it.

[Cinci Jim]

Funny. As long as I keep the blade sharp, I am pretty happy to use any knife as long as it is for the right purpose. Any knife with a dull blade sucks.

I bought a set of Wusthof Grand Prix II's. Seem like good knives to me. I like the plastic handles - personal preference. Hand wash & sharpen every couple of months with a Chefs Choice sharpener thing. Good enough for me.

Not worth more thought than this... it is a tool and as long as it does what I want, I'm happy.

[yakstone]

"It's like saying to the staff at the shop that they are of no value, yet you still go there. The prices on-line are lower for exactly this reason, if you don't want to pay for the service, don't use it."

I am with Ti D 100% on this one. Taking advantage of the service provided at one purveyor and then shopping on line is fundamentally wrong in so many ways.

[dave thompson]

^^^THIS!^^^

To purposefully waste an employee's time with the foreknowledge that the item *will not* be purchased there is bordering on cheating someone of money. It's dishonest. Unfortunately it seems to becoming the norm lately. Maybe part of the way the newer generations grew up, feeling entitled.

Sorry if I sound like a grump, in reality I'm having a very good day. Just placed a 15 pound prime rib roast in the oven and good riding buddies are coming for dinner this afternoon.

[rugbysecondrow]

^^^THIS!^^^

To purposefully waste an employee's time with the foreknowledge that the item *will not* be purchased there is bordering on cheating someone of money. It's dishonest. Unfortunately it seems to becoming the norm lately. Maybe part of the way the newer generations grew up, feeling entitled.

Sorry if I sound like a grump, in reality I'm having a very good day. Just placed a 15 pound prime rib roast in the oven and good riding buddies are coming for dinner this afternoon.
You are correct until you try to hang this yoke around the neck of a specific generation lest I decide to break out examples of older folks be cheap tippers and not respecting the work of service providers.

All generations seem to have opportunists who disrespect those in the service industry.

[Dekonick]

You are correct until you try to hang this yoke around the neck of a specific generation lest I decide to break out examples of older folks be cheap tippers and not respecting the work of service providers.

All generations seem to have opportunists who disrespect those in the service industry.

Sad, but true.

[dave thompson]

You are correct until you try to hang this yoke around the neck of a specific generation lest I decide to break out examples of older folks be cheap tippers and not respecting the work of service providers.

All generations seem to have opportunists who disrespect those in the service industry.
"Tipping" is one of my 'pets'. Tips are earned, not automatically deserved. Just because someone is a service provider doesn't not entitle them to a tip.

[rugbysecondrow]

"Tipping" is one of my 'pets'. Tips are earned, not automatically deserved. Just because someone is a service provider doesn't not entitle them to a tip.

As somebody who waited table through college, it is a pet peeve of mine as well.

Actually that is exactly what it means. A waiter, as a service provider, is due a tip so long as the service was acceptable. It is the social contract you enter into when you enter into the restaurant and sit at a table. Don't like it, don't eat out. Adjust up or down depending on the quality of service, zero if something horrendous occurred, but it should be aweful. A tip is the default and when you eat out, you should know that you will pay a tip. When I waited tables, I earned about 15% of minimum wage as a employer paid wage, everything above that came from tips.

As a waiter, I would consistently out perform the 15% standard for tips, even after tipping bar tenders and hostess (so my tables got sat first and drinks came out faster), but older folks were consistently awful tippers. The worst was when a tour bus of retired folks would stop through...tons of work for about 8%. Even more, the older women were worse than the men. If the man put down 8 bucks, the wife would lift 1-2 off the table. It is so predictable that it ceased to be an aggravation.

I had a paper route for years and it was consistent there as well. The younger folks seemed to tip better and pay on time, but my older customers rarely tipped and rarely paid on time or complained about it when I had to collect. Don't like it, don't get the paper.

Let me say though, that when a table tipped me before the meal (heavy) that I always put forth the extra effort, maybe an attempt to live up to the tip.

It is a great system that seams to net good service overall. Being a good customer helps as well. It is hard to give good service to a jerk.

[Ken Robb]

^^^THIS!^^^



Sorry if I sound like a grump, in reality I'm having a very good day. Just placed a 15 pound prime rib roast in the oven and good riding buddies are coming for dinner this afternoon.

I get it--fatten them up on Sunday so you can keep up on Monday!

[Dekonick]

As somebody who waited table through college, it is a pet peeve of mine as well.

Actually that is exactly what it means. A waiter, as a service provider, is due a tip so long as the service was acceptable. It is the social contract you enter into when you enter into the restaurant and sit at a table. Don't like it, don't eat out. Adjust up or down depending on the quality of service, zero if something horrendous occurred, but it should be aweful. A tip is the default and when you eat out, you should know that you will pay a tip. When I waited tables, I earned about 15% of minimum wage as a employer paid wage, everything above that came from tips.

As a waiter, I would consistently out perform the 15% standard for tips, even after tipping bar tenders and hostess (so my tables got sat first and drinks came out faster), but older folks were consistently awful tippers. The worst was when a tour bus of retired folks would stop through...tons of work for about 8%. Even more, the older women were worse than the men. If the man put down 8 bucks, the wife would lift 1-2 off the table. It is so predictable that it ceased to be an aggravation.

I had a paper route for years and it was consistent there as well. The younger folks seemed to tip better and pay on time, but my older customers rarely tipped and rarely paid on time or complained about it when I had to collect. Don't like it, don't get the paper.

Let me say though, that when a table tipped me before the meal (heavy) that I always put forth the extra effort, maybe an attempt to live up to the tip.

It is a great system that seams to net good service overall. Being a good customer helps as well. It is hard to give good service to a jerk.


Tip before the meal? Interesting. Never done that... but I customarily leave at least 20%. More if the bill is tiny... I had friends who waited tables in college... lets just say lots of work where they don't always have control over the outcome.

[Joel]

Ok, I'm "in the business" so I'll leave the tipping drama aside and get back on the topic per se.

As a knife junkie, my new favorite was picked up in Japan following an epic bicycle ride in Vietnam and Cambodia.

For those of you who mess with fish - you may know that sashimi knives are flat on one side and sharp only on one side.

Left handed or right handed. Needless to say getting a left handed quality sashimi knife in the USA is a little like trying to get Keirin betting done.

Was in Nagoya and had the chance to pick up a Ryujin-Sakai from one of their folks.

www.ryujin-sakai.co.jp

What was funny is that while there was a big language barrier - the jist of the conversation was that his preference is that when I need to have the blade really re-sharpened, that I bring it back to him in Nagoya (from Orlando!) and he'll do it himself. He prefers to take care of the knives personally.

That my friends is customer service!

Joel

[oldpotatoe]

You have no idea how often that happens. It's like saying to the staff at the shop that they are of no value, yet you still go there. The prices on-line are lower for exactly this reason, if you don't want to pay for the service, don't use it.

I think many here know how often this happens. One of the reasons I have kept away from standard clothes, shoes, helmets(altho I'm trying Mavic helmets). Happens with components, tires, you name it. Shop does the 'selling', someplace else gets the 'sale'.

'Cost' of doin' biz in retail.

[oldpotatoe]

As somebody who waited table through college, it is a pet peeve of mine as well.

Actually that is exactly what it means. A waiter, as a service provider, is due a tip so long as the service was acceptable. It is the social contract you enter into when you enter into the restaurant and sit at a table. Don't like it, don't eat out. Adjust up or down depending on the quality of service, zero if something horrendous occurred, but it should be aweful. A tip is the default and when you eat out, you should know that you will pay a tip. When I waited tables, I earned about 15% of minimum wage as a employer paid wage, everything above that came from tips.

As a waiter, I would consistently out perform the 15% standard for tips, even after tipping bar tenders and hostess (so my tables got sat first and drinks came out faster), but older folks were consistently awful tippers. The worst was when a tour bus of retired folks would stop through...tons of work for about 8%. Even more, the older women were worse than the men. If the man put down 8 bucks, the wife would lift 1-2 off the table. It is so predictable that it ceased to be an aggravation.

I had a paper route for years and it was consistent there as well. The younger folks seemed to tip better and pay on time, but my older customers rarely tipped and rarely paid on time or complained about it when I had to collect. Don't like it, don't get the paper.

Let me say though, that when a table tipped me before the meal (heavy) that I always put forth the extra effort, maybe an attempt to live up to the tip.

It is a great system that seams to net good service overall. Being a good customer helps as well. It is hard to give good service to a jerk.

Define 'older'? You mentioned 'retired', as in fixed income perhaps and eating out is a once in a great while pleasure, and they 'may' not have the disposable income that the gen 'Zs' have?

My wife is a very generous tipper( she is .6 offa century+). She sees some wait people as the same demographic as our son's and knows doing that they do can be tough.

I guess as a 'older gent', I don't really agree with gross generalizations, either good or bad, due to age alone. More to the story, always.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NelBNtNm8l0

[rugbysecondrow]

Define 'older'? You mentioned 'retired', as in fixed income perhaps and eating out is a once in a great while pleasure, and they 'may' not have the disposable income that the gen 'Zs' have?

My wife is a very generous tipper( she is .6 offa century+). She sees some wait people as the same demographic as our son's and knows doing that they do can be tough.

I guess as a 'older gent', I don't really agree with gross generalizations, either good or bad, due to age alone. More to the story, always.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NelBNtNm8l0

When I was 12 with a paper route, anybody over the age of fifty was old, waiting tables it was anybody over 70...now it is 85.

You are right, generalizations are unfair. My point was not that all old people are curmudgeons or that all young people are saints, it is just cheapness, lack of respect for service workers, entitlement spans all generations. I find it funny when folks like Dave lay crap at the feet of young folks...well who raised them? Who raised their parents etc. No age group corners the market on these attributes.

[tannhauser]

One hundred.

[jerome]

Please check him before anything

http://cutbrooklyn.com/home.html


I got one for my mother last year the Serotta like knife !

[GuyGadois]

After 20 years of use my dog knocked our Wusthoff bread knife off the counter (surfing for food) and the blade broke. I sent it in (the knife, not the dog) and a week later they sent me a new one. Gotta love the lifetime warranty.

GG

[OtayBW]

There is no substitute for learning how to sharpen high quality steel on a proper hone. I've been into collecting and restoring straight razors for some time. I commonly use traditional Japanese stones, nagura, and slurries. The quality of the finished edge is unbeatable, IMO. For more 'conventional methods', you might want to try finishing your knife edges using some abrasive paste such as ~0.25u (or smaller) diamond or ~0.125u carbon-nitride-boride. Wicked pissa sharp!

Couple of recommended resources:
http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/
http://www.chefknivestogo.com/

[edl]

Tip before the meal? Interesting. Never done that... but I customarily leave at least 20%. More if the bill is tiny... I had friends who waited tables in college... lets just say lots of work where they don't always have control over the outcome.

I also normally tip 20%. I'm not in the industry, but I know servers are just one part of the restaurant machine...so many areas where it can breakdown, so it's not fair to place all the blame on the server. OTOH if the service is consistently horrible, don't go back.


There is no substitute for learning how to sharpen high quality steel on a proper hone. I've been into collecting and restoring straight razors for some time. I commonly use traditional Japanese stones, nagura, and slurries. The quality of the finished edge is unbeatable, IMO. For more 'conventional methods', you might want to try finishing your knife edges using some abrasive paste such as ~0.25u (or smaller) diamond or ~0.125u carbon-nitride-boride. Wicked pissa sharp!

Couple of recommended resources:
http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/
http://www.chefknivestogo.com/

Great advice. It doesn't matter how nice your knife is if you don't service them. With constant use any knife will lose the edge fairly quick, and turn into a dull, dangerous knife.

[forrestw]

New kitchen knife W-1 tool steel, forging, rough shaping, hardening, tempering complete, edge RC 62, back/body RC ~45.

Still to go, finish shaping and sharpening.

[OtayBW]

Cool!

[Dekonick]

I like that - nice to be able to access all the equipment at MIT eh? Even if some of it is old...

:beer:

[djg]

"Tipping" is one of my 'pets'. Tips are earned, not automatically deserved. Just because someone is a service provider doesn't not entitle them to a tip.

Sorta . . . but I did some waiting way back when, in grad school. At the time, the wage for waiters was 2 bucks per hour -- a fraction of the minimum wage. Moreover, it was made clear to us that the IRS expected a certain level of tips and that regular declarations below 10% of receipts might prove a complication for us and the restaurant. Based on my experience, I'd say that service would have to be truly hostile for me to stiff anybody on a tip -- nominal or harsh signal tips are things I've only done a few times in my life. Sure I'll tip more for better service (and by extension, less for worse), but I'm not sending a worker home unpaid if he or she is doing his or her job, under any reasonable notion of doing the job.

[torquer]

Interesting thread drift: kitchen knives to tipping. I could understand if it had gone the other way...
Anyhow, I've always thought it odd (and unfair) that wait staff are the only ones punished for a bad dining experience; I'm just as happy to follow the continental standard of a 15% service charge added to the bill (also applied to large groups here, but why?) Nobody keeps you from adding more, if you feel it is deserved, but the servers get a living wage no matter what the demographic composition of the tour bus pulling into the parking lot. ;)
And if the meal wasn't good, you don't come back.

[Ken Robb]

I'm just as happy to follow the continental standard of a 15% service charge added to the bill (also applied to large groups here, but why?) Nobody keeps you from adding more, if you feel it is deserved, but the servers get a living wage no matter what the demographic composition of the tour bus pulling into the parking lot. ;)
And if the meal wasn't good, you don't come back.
Unfortunately the flip-side of this is when a tour bus of Europeans comes to a restaurant and none of them leave a tip because they thought a service charge was included in the check. I've seen this happen a couple of times.

[mister]

in europe (or maybe just france?) the servers make a fair salary right?
so they don't want tips. considered an insult if i'm not mistaken.

[Dekonick]

in europe (or maybe just france?) the servers make a fair salary right?
so they don't want tips. considered an insult if i'm not mistaken.

No - it is not an insult...

It is common to leave a 'pour boire' - a small tip (enough to get a beer - hence 'pour boire') but service compris is the norm (tip built in) so the tip is just that - a buck or 2.

[mister]

^ oh thanks.
some of my friends went to paris and said tipping is frowned upon.

[Dekonick]

One more bit - could be wrong... but you only tip in little cafe's - I would NOT leave any tip in a fine establishment. If you are eating @ a 3 star, don't leave anything but crumbs... ;)

[EvanOT]

Would you go to your LBS to try on shoes, then leave and buy them on line?

I'm more than happy to support my LBS and buy the shoes from them.

IMO the same ought to apply to your LFS (Local Foodie Store)
I have no problem doing this to places like williams sonoma, bed bed and beyond, etc.
They are very large companies and 99% of the time the employees are clueless, I can find out all I need to know about the knife online except how it feels in my hand.

However the last knife I purchased I bought from Williams Sonoma because the employee that helped me was incredibly knowledgeable.