Pantani

[Kines]

Not speculating here, in fact the link and title of my posting is coincidence. As a physician I just want to say what's been said many times before - a hematocrit of 60 is DANGEROUS.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2004/more/02/14/bc.eu.spt.cyc.pantanide.ap/index.html

[Dr. Doofus]

In 1995, Pantani lost five minutes to Indurain, and four to Zulle, in a Tour TT.

In 1998, he beat Zulle in a flat TT to win the Giro.

Whatever he took to go from specialist climber to winner of two grand tours ravaged his body, killed his form, killed his psyche, and eventually killed him. Bottom line.

[JohnS]

Another one bites the dust. World level pro cycling is starting to scare me. Whether he died from his own hand or medical reasons, something's wrong!

[gt6267a]

kines -- for those of us not in the know, what is a normal hemocrit level?

i read the velonews bit and it did not say his death was due to performance enhancing substances. there is mention of a note which depending on its contents could mean this was self-inflicted.

[cycledoc]

With a hematocrit that high, one must suspect he was using erythropoetin (EPO), a synthetic form of a naturally occurring protein which stimulates red blood cell production in bone marrow. Athletes use it to increase oxygen carrying capacity for endurance. Unfortunately, a high hematocrit has the potential to cause "sludging" of the circulatory system which may result in stroke or cardiac arrest.

There are rare medical conditions and states of extreme dehydration which may result in an increased hematocrit, but given the state of professional cycling...doping has to be high in the differential diagnosis!

This is a tragedy!

[Johny]

Dunno the cause of his death. I am very shocked and sad to see another top pro cyclist die in their thirties... Indeed, so unreal...

[Kevin]

It sad when a cyclist who is younger than I am dies. In fact, it sometimes scare the hell out of me. Maybe its safer to be slow.

Kevin

[larryp2]

normal hematocrit is about 35 to 42

[Kines]

There are many possible reasons for his death, and we may never even know. However, the human body is tougher than most of us give it credit for. An athletic body, in particular, doesn't just "give out". I was just posting a jaded, cynical message about the doping problem in cycling, and I probably should have just expressed remorse for his death instead. Also, I have no idea what his hematocrit was - I was using an exaggeration for illustration.

KN

[sellsworth]

The 2000 TdF Hautacam stage is going to be a bit strange to watch after what's happened to Jimenez, Oxtoa, and now Pantani.

[BumbleBeeDave]

<<<Young rider dies in sleep
A 21-year-old Belgian rider Johan Sermon died overnight Thursday while sleeping, according to a report by the Belgian wires Saturday. Officials are saying Sermon died of natural causes.>>>

One cannot help but wonder now at the real cause of death of any professional cyclist, no matter what the “official” circumstances.

BBDave

[JohnS]

We're all cycling fans and we're jaded and know that things aren't right. What do you think the sponsors and regular fans are thinking? I see another scandal like the Festina one around the corner. There's obviously something new out there that isn't detectable. How else would everyone be dying yet cycling is supposedly (somewhat) cleaned up?

[Elefantino]

As I said on a rival board, I'm really sad that we lost this flawed yet colorful, competitive, inspirational, controversial and quintessential cyclist.

I've had this screen name for a while and I think I'll retire it.

Mike

[djg]

I'm sure that there are many things to be learned at autopsy. I'm sure that there are conclusions to be drawn and lessons to be learned. But for me, and certainly for now, this is just sad. A damn shame. That's all.

[zap]

Sad day for road cycling.

May Pantani rest in peace.



Larryp2-Normal hematocrit levels are 36-46.

[Tom Byrnes]

How very sad. It sounds as though Pantani was quite tortured and pained for the past few years. What a shame. After all of his accomplishments and achievements, to die like he did, alone and isolated is so very sad.

Winning the Giro and Tour de France in the same year. In this era of specialized training and focused preparation for specific tours and events, will we ever see another double winner of two grand tours in the same year?

Flaws and all, Marco Pantani will surely be missed.

As Zap stated, may he rest in peace.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . this man’s “friends” and family? How could he be so loved and idolized by so many in Italy and in cycling, and yet there was no one close enough to him to take to trouble to stand by his side and look after him during the obviously difficult times he has had over the past few years? Why was he even let out of the clinic if the depression was still this bad?

The more I think about this, the more I am angered at all the agents, sponsors, and “tifosi” who were so willing to prey on his talent to line their pockets and fulfill their vicarious fantasies of stardom and victory, yet who could just let him fade away with so many obvious problems without doing more to help.

He needn’t have died like this, whether it was suicide, accident, or carelessness.

BBDave

[Tom Byrnes]

Amen, BBDave

[bulliedawg]

FYI:

There's an interesting obit on Pantani in the NYT. Free registration is required, that's why I didn't link it.

But it sounds like he was a very isolated person, which I know from personal experience is incredibly dangerous to psychological and emotional wellness.

The obit says that while "suicide" is not being used yet, he did write down some random thoughts before his death. Though the thoughts were not a "good bye."

[Poolidor!]

There was this article I read about this dutch sprinter who also recently passed away. He was a huge talent but he was prone to fighting during sprints. He was dropped by his team (Motorola maybe?) and then no other team would pick him up.

He would go to kermesse races just with his bike begging them to let him ride and to prove himself and they wouldn't let him race.

Another very sad and poignant story!
Does anybody remember that one

[eyebob]

Your frustration with the tifosi, friends, sponsors not withstanding, it's impossible to hand-hold an adult 24-7 to prevent this sort of thing. The clinic that let him go clearly didn't think he was suicidal or having suicidal ideations. In this case no-ones to blame if everyone isn't to blame. The hardest part of the disease is the fact that you don't trust yourself and the decisions that you make so you need good friends/professionals around you to help guide you. But they are never there 24-7.

The irony is that since his depression (if it were not organic) was probably due to a serious lack of self-esteem (I think that they all are on some level) so he probably worried about his "legacy." Well, now he's got a "legacy" larger (IMHO) than what he'd have had if he lust pedalled off into private life.

BT

"long may you run"
Neil Young

[oracle]

for those who read italian, the latest from la gazzetta dello sport:

Il prof. Fortuni: "L'arresto cardiaco è stato causato da edema cerebrale e polmonare. Ci vorranno settimane per capire, dopo gli esami istologici e tossicologici".

RIMINI, 16 febbraio 2004 - "L'arresto cardiaco è stato causato da
un edema cerebrale e polmonare ed è escluso qualsiasi tipo di evento traumatico": è il primo commento del professor Fortuni, che ha effettuato l'autopsia sul corpo di Marco Pantani all'obitorio di Rimini ."Non ci sono ancora elementi né per confermare né per escludere l'utilizzo di sostanze tossiche, ci vorranno settimane per i risultati degli ulteriori esami istologici e tossicologici - ha aggiunto -. E non abbiamo ancora stabilito quando e dove questi esami verranno svolti"
I funerali si terrano mercoledì o giovedì a Cesenatico: a Cesenatico, presso la chiesa di San Giacomo, e contrariamente a quanto annunciato saranno in forma pubblica e non privata. La camera ardente sarà preparata presso la sua abitazione a Sala di Cesenatico. Il Comune ha proclamato per il giorno dei funerali il lutto cittadino e ha già stabilito misure antitraffico per permettere ai tifosi di raggiungere la cittadina romagnola. Anche il trofeo Laigueglia, in programma martedì, ricorderà Pantani: ci sarà un minuto di raccoglimento prima del via. E ai bambini delle scolaresche di Laigueglia e Andora sarà dato il compito di esprimere con semplicità il pensiero per il campione che non c'è più.
Intanto però a Rimini, come era prevedibile, si rincorrono come in un vortice le notizie sulla scomparsa del campione di Cesenatico, dall'incontro tra gli inquirenti, all'arrivo straziante dei genitori, al dolore dei tifosi che non riescono a pensare e a parlare d'altro. Alle 12.40 il medico legale, professor Giuseppe Fortuni è arrivato al Residence Hotel Le Rose per un sopralluogo nel mini appartamento D5, dove sabato sera è stato trovato morto il ciclista. Insieme al medico, c'erano alcuni agenti della squadra mobile e altri della polizia scientifica. Nell'edificio è entrata anche una persona che, ha spiegato un ispettore della squadra mobile, è un consulente di parte, presumibilmente nominato dalla famiglia di Pantani.
A Cesenatico sono arrivati anche Paolo e Tonina Pantani, i genitori di Marco, di ritorno dalla Grecia. Lo ha confermato la segreteria del sindaco Damiano Zoffoli. L'arrivo dei genitori era anche stato preceduto da alcune rivelazioni provenienti da fonti della polizia secondo cui Pantani non aveva più controllo sul proprio patrimonio economico e immobiliare. La gestione era infatti stata presa a carico totalmente dal padre. Il Pirata di fatto aveva un vitalizio che gestiva con la carta di credito trovatagli nel portafoglio messo sotto sequestro ieri. Questo spiegherebbe anche i rapporti tesi con la famiglia di cui si è parlato nelle ultime ore e l'allontanamento del campione da Cesenatico, dove non si faceva vedere da parecchio tempo. Non ci sarebbero però accuse ai parenti fra i biglietti trovati nella stanza del residence, affermano fonti investigative.

:( oracle

[shinomaster]

was his hemocratic level really 60 when he died??? Why? HE wasn't racing any more?

[Keith A]

FreeTranslation.com gives the following translation...

The prof. Lucks: "THE heart STOPPING was caused from cerebral and pulmonary edema. It will want us weeks to understand, after the examinations istologici and tossicologici".

RIMINI, 16 February 2004 - "THE heart STOPPING was caused from a cerebral and pulmonary edema and any traumatic type of event is excluded" : is the first comment of the professor Lucks, that carried out the autopsy on the Bogs Mark of body to the morgue of Rimini." there is not still elements né to confirm né to exclude the toxic utilization of substances, will want us weeks for the resultsIt added -. And not still we established when and where these examinations will come carried out" THE funerals itself terrano wednesday or Thursday to Cesenatico: to Cesenatico, I press the church of San Giacomo, and contrary to how much announced will be in public shape and do not deprived. The room burning will be gotten ready I press its residence to Room of Cesenatico. The Commune proclaimed for the day of the funerals the city mourning and already established measures antitraffico to allow the fans of to reach the of romagna citizen. Also the trophy Laigueglia, in program Tuesday, will remember Bogs: there will be a minute of concentration before the road. And to the children of the schoolchildren of Laigueglia and Andora the task of expressing with simplicity will be given the thought for the champion that there is not more. Meanwhile however to Rimini, how it was predictable, they chase themselves like in a whirl the news on the passing away of the champion of Cesenatico, from the meeting between the examining magistrates, to the harrowing arrival of the parents, to the pain of the fans that do not succeed to think and to talk about other. To 12.40 the legal doctor, professor Giuseppe Lucks arrived at the Residence Hotel The Roses for an investigation in the mini apartment D5, where Saturday evening was found dead the cyclist. Together to the medical one, there they were some agents of the mobile squad and other of the scientific police. In the building it a person entered also that, it a surveyor of the mobile squad explained, it is a consultant of part, likely named from the family of Bogs. To Cesenatico arrived also Paolo and Tonina Bogs, the parents of Mark, of return from the Greece. The secretary office of the mayor confirmed it Damiano Zoffoli. The arrival of the parents also had been preceded from some revelations provenienti from sources of the police second whose Bogs had not more control on the actual economical and property property. The management in fact had been taken to loaded totally from the father. The Pirate to make had a life annuity that managed with the credit cards trovatagli in the wallet put under I confine yesterday. This would explain also the tense relations with the family of whom has spoken in the last hours and the dismissal of the champion from Cesenatico, where it is not make see from several time. There is not however accusations to the relatives between the cards found in the room of the residence, affirm detective sources.

[gt6267a]

i definitely agree with what you are saying eyebob.

As a person who has dealt with family members with depression and/or mental illness, it is not easy to watch. In my experience, the worse a person gets, the less one is able to help no matter how much effort is put forth.

I don’t know about the laws in italy, but if they are similar to the states, a situation needs to be rather severe before it is possible to force medical attention and/or hospitalization upon someone. In these situations, I think of it as a very dangerous state when an individual is clearly ill, but legally not enough so to force action.

This in between state is very stressful for the family and doctors. And, as I said above, there is little if anything that can be done to help…except wait for the person to get help on their own or until the situation degrades … maybe it is a bit cynical of me for not listing that an individual will get better on their own, but once on the slippery slop that does not seem to happen.

Personally, I have spent to much time on that fence and empathize with the family members watching and waiting.

[Too Tall]

I recall the UCI Hematocrit level allowed for racing is 50. Hydration can be a major factor as well.

It is very very sad. Pantani was a great one regardless. His wick burned a little to brightly.

I'll remember him for the insane accelerations on the big culs in TDF....they were thrilling to watch and so was he.

[tch]

Keith, thanks for the post, but I guess that's why the service is free, huh?

[cycledoc]

nm

[BumbleBeeDave]

<<<Thousands of people attend the funeral ceremony of Italian cycling legend and former Tour de France and Giro d'Italia race winner Marco Pantani at the San Giacomo church in Cesenatico, northern Italy, Wednesday, Feb. 18, 2004. Pantani, 34, was found dead in a residence in Rimini, northern Italy, Saturday Feb.14, 2004. (AP Photo/Luca Bruno) >>>

[BumbleBeeDave]

<<<The coffin of Italian cycling legend and former Tour de France and Giro d'Italia race winner Marco Pantani is carried outside the San Giacomo church in Cesenatico, northern Italy, Wednesday, Feb. 18, 2004. Pantani, 34, was found dead in a residence in Rimini, northern Italy, Saturday Feb.14, 2004. (AP Photo/Luca Bruno) >>>

[BumbleBeeDave]

<<<The coffin of Italian cycling legend and former Tour the France and Giro d'Italia race winner Marco Pantani is carried outside the San Giacomo church in Cesenatico, northern Italy, Wednesday, Feb. 18, 2004. About 20,000 people gathered inside and, mostly, outside the small church in this Adriatic town where the service was held. Pantani, 34, was found dead in a residence in Rimini, northern Italy, Saturday Feb.14, 2004. (AP Photo/Luca Bruno)>>>

[Keith A]

Fron CyclingNews.com, Pantani's final words that were "scribbled in the empty pages of his passport"...

"For four years, I've been in every court... I've lost my desire to be like other sportsmen. I've been humiliated for nothing, I want to be like the other sportsmen but I'm going through humiliation like all my colleagues. But cycling is paying for this because a lot of guys have lost any hope of justice. And I'm suffering with this declaration of truth, writing in my passport-because the world has to decide whether all my fellow cyclists have gone through humiliation, in their rooms with hidden cameras that will destroy families. I don't know why I stopped myself in these moments of anger if I made mistakes I'd like to know that there is proof, but when my sporting life and above all my private life was violated... I lost a lot.

"Hasta la victoria is a great motto for a sportsman, but it's much harder to give your whole heart for a sport. I hope my story is an example even for other sports; the rules should be the same for everybody. I was always afraid of being spied on at home, in hotels and by TV cameras. I ended up hurting myself to not give up my intimacy, the intimacy of my girlfriend and of other colleagues who also lost, of other families who like me were attacked. Take a look what a cyclist is... they can't hurt the families of the athletes. Someone's dreams can end up shattered by drugs, but only after (ones) sporting life. If some humanity helps us understand and asks what makes us hope, when you make a real mistake you understand and you fight with your heart.

This document is the truth. My hope is that real men or women can read it and defend equal rules in sport for everybody. I'm not a liar, I feel hurt and everybody who believed in me has to speak out."

To me one of the saddest aspects of his life is that he felt so alone, yet surrounded by so many that cared. As he stated, he wouldn't let anyone really get close to him and he suffered because of that.

Farewell to Pantani...may he find peace in the life hereafter.