Made in China is better, Rapha said so.

[rice rocket]

Don't know how this WON'T degenerate into Rapha flaming, but it's an interesting read.

http://www.rapha.cc/made-in-china

[soulspinner]

I dont either................

[benitosan1972]

All I can say is that if they are outsourcing their labor to China, they should pass the cost of the cheaper labor onto the consumers with lower prices. I love their product, design, and quality, but I'm anti their prices, and now that I know some/all of their stuff is assembled overseas, I'm definitely anti their prices (which is ok as I try to buy used Rapha here & other places).

Aren't Pinarellos made in the same factory in Taiwan as some generic-carbon frames? But the Pinarellos cost 3x-4x vs Taiwanese "Chinarellos?"

[Louis]

KTC has doubled their workforce’s wages in the last year alone and expects salaries to rise again by as much as 20-30% over the course of the next year.

Gee, if they can double the workers' wages in one year, does that mean that they were underpaying them before?

At that rate of increase, unless they were paying them 0.00000001 cents / hour, how long until they are no longer competitive on price?

[harryblack]

cool... don't own any Rapha, now never plan to.

i'll make do with Hincapie et al.

I dont either................

[christian]

I'll give them credit for putting their mouth where their money is.

[1centaur]

Nothing in that piece was particularly surprising, except perhaps for the statement that there are no more sweatshops in China. That strikes me as unlikely. I'd also say that wages up 100% in the last 12 months and 20-30% in the next 12 months suggests two things: rising prices in the West, regardless of what we think our inflation should be, and wage levels that were way too low a year ago and quite possibly now.

But generally, China's experience curve looks predictable: bad conditions lead to greater wealth lead to better conditions, while skill levels rise. You don't start out with great conditions and benefits, your economy has to earn them. And, yes, exploitation occurs in those circumstances as the right balance is sought.

Cost of manufacturing is just one element of total cost and therefore ultimate profit margin. Rapha's marketing expense, for example, is clearly high vs. some competitors'. And Chinarellos are not Pinarellos as far as most are concerned.

[christian]

Rapha's marketing expense, for example, is clearly high vs. some competitors'.Yes, Mr. Mustache has a family to feed! Alternately, "Epic ain't free!"? perhaps.

[gdw]

Interesting piece. Makes one wonder how Ibex can manufacture most all their products in the US, sell them for less than Rapha, and make a profit.

[rice rocket]

If you read the KTC site, they pride themselves in paying above minimum wage. How much is up to your imagination, but here's the minimum wages by province in China.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minimum_wages_in_China_(PRC)

[harryblack]

there are sweatshops in Brooklyn, Queens, the Bronx and Manhattan still-- not all Chinese, of course-- but none in China... right.

Nothing in that piece was particularly surprising, except perhaps for the statement that there are no more sweatshops in China. That strikes me as unlikely. I'd also say that wages up 100% in the last 12 months and 20-30% in the next 12 months suggests two things: rising prices in the West, regardless of what we think our inflation should be, and wage levels that were way too low a year ago and quite possibly now.

But generally, China's experience curve looks predictable: bad conditions lead to greater wealth lead to better conditions, while skill levels rise. You don't start out with great conditions and benefits, your economy has to earn them. And, yes, exploitation occurs in those circumstances as the right balance is sought.

Cost of manufacturing is just one element of total cost and therefore ultimate profit margin. Rapha's marketing expense, for example, is clearly high vs. some competitors'. And Chinarellos are not Pinarellos as far as most are concerned.

[1centaur]

Didn't Rapha start as a designer? In which case a lot of margin may go to their partners. If Ibex is closer to the manufacturing and lacks a distributor perhaps they can make similar margin at lower prices.

[rain dogs]

Where should I start?

Maybe with the statement:

"Anyone who knows anything..."

Why so defensive Rapha? Attacking those who will offer a rebuttal already? Just in the 5th sentence into your self-gratifying post!

As somebody who knows something, I for one have a strong understanding of the trade agreement made under the Clinton administration that "enabled" Cambodia to become the world leader in production of garments for Levis, Gap, A&F amongst others. This agreement was ground-breaking in increases in the quality of life and working conditions of the Cambodian garment factory worker.

After all, "they" need jobs,.... right? (The standard pejorative as opposed to actually trying to build strong healthy economies... cause "we" don't need jobs do we? Funny they say the crumbling economy is ironic, and can't see the irony in that statement.)

Anyway,.... as soon as this US-Cambodia agreement ended, where were those companies to support Cambodia? They all started to leave... for greener... err... cheaper pastures. Now that it was more expensive to manufacture in Cambodia, it was easier to move entire factories than pay fair labour wages and support a young growing economy.

The Cambodian economy was completely restructured around clothing manufacturing, with leading edge equipment, best practices, and highly trained workers.... but alas.... it's gone.

The Cambodian garment industry is in ruins today.

Made in Cambodia then, China now... as long as it saves you a buck. And with population in the billions, they're long be another young person willing to work for less.

Read/Listen to more here:

http://cimacoppirides.wordpress.com/2011/07/18/status-quo-derailleur-manufacturing-in-least-developed-countries-ldcs/

Maybe I'll stop there, cause according to this post, I'm nobody who knows nothing. Plus the rest of the post is bull****, slight-of-hand writing full of confirmation bias anyway.

In the race to the bottom.... the best you can hope for is the sludge at the bottom.

[rwsaunders]

More on KTC....http://ktcquality.com/manufacture/opinion_ktc.html

I saw that Hincapie was mentioned earlier in this thread. Most of the Hincapie pieces that I have were manufactured in Columbia, where George has family ties.

[harryblack]

yes, I mentioned Hincapie-- I'm not even a huge GH fan as racer but I've heard good things about George & Rich as people and am happy to support a South Carolina company. Same reason I ride Thomson (Macon, GA), though Thomson is arguably more unique.

More on KTC....http://ktcquality.com/manufacture/opinion_ktc.html

I saw that Hincapie was mentioned earlier in this thread. Most of the Hincapie pieces that I have were manufactured in Columbia, where George has family ties.

[54ny77]

interesting that they put that piece out there in the 1st place.

wonder why?

[Louis]

interesting that they put that piece out there in the 1st place.

wonder why?

I assume because of countless threads like this one and other forms of feedback.

[benitosan1972]

PEPR = Pre-emptive PR.

It was bound to surface,
So they basically wanted
To tell us whassup before
We asked Rapha whassup?

Confession before getting caught
Seems more credible than explaining
After getting caught, at least I think so.

[pdmtong]

salomon bought arcteryx.

now arcteryx made in china, not canada

same arguement made by salomon

not all my campy clothing is made in italy. some is, some isn't. all their pieces are fantastic (racing line)

[Ahneida Ride]

Some bike stuff is made in USA ... right here !
Keeps American's employed.

More American's employed = more Serotta's sold.

I try to purchase those products.

[crownjewelwl]

my wife used to be a buyer for private label at bergdorf goodman...she traveled to italy 4x per year to see her stuff gettin' made...

this was stuff produced using the "finest" fabric and old school manufacturing and too be brutally honest, the quality wasn't that great...buttons would come loose, stitching wouldn't be finished properly, etc.

i'm not sure what all the fuss is about china. wages are lower cuz the cost of living is lower. peeps are moving out of rural areas into the cities and looking for work. export demand has improved the quality of life for many. yes there are sweat shops...i'm not debating that, but let's not make generalizations about all things made in china

there's a reason why italy, the UK, and most of continental europe is almost bankrupt...

[Kontact]

There are no sweatshops in China because there are no pockets of underpaid workers in a country full of underpaid workers. China is a sweatshop.

That said, I'm not sure why we're supposed to feel good about exporting our dollars to improve other people's pay while our economy is dying - especially when those people won't buy a single US made item in their lifetimes. Extreme trade deficits are hardly something to feel great about.

[crownjewelwl]

There are no sweatshops in China because there are no pockets of underpaid workers in a country full of underpaid workers. China is a sweatshop.

That said, I'm not sure why we're supposed to feel good about exporting our dollars to improve other people's pay while our economy is dying - especially when those people won't buy a single US made item in their lifetimes. Extreme trade deficits are hardly something to feel great about.

i don't feel great about it either. but rapha and china aren't to blame...

rapha isn't a charity. they are in business to make money. if they need to preserve margin by producing in china peeps can vote by not buying their products. consumers want great products at great prices. if rapha wanted to make the same margins on UK produced product, their prices would be even more astromical. (note: ALWAYS buy rapha on sale)

(well, i guess you could blame the chinese for "manipulating" their currency. the RMB should be MUCH stronger vs. the USD)

[Peter B]

Seems to me that in the never-ending race to the bottom there will come a day when Chinese workers also feel the loss of jobs due to outsourcing of cheaper labor.

[Ahneida Ride]

Henry Ford recognized that he had to build cars such that his employees
could afford them.

[rice rocket]

Seems to me that in the never-ending race to the bottom there will come a day when Chinese workers also feel the loss of jobs due to outsourcing of cheaper labor.

To who?

China is in the unique position of having a nearly unlimited supply of workers willing to work for peanuts, and the infrastructure to keep it up. And a government to clamp their currency to make sure their buying power doesn't get too big. It's like government sponsored wage slavery.

[Kirk007]

If political threads are banned can't we also get off the Rapha - China - Outlandishly expensive soapbox. I know I could ignore 'em but like a moth to a flame.

Anyway, I like many of the Rapha products and I don't give a **** what they cost or where they are made.

There are bigger issues confronting us, like the fact that the majority of American's think global warming is a myth and that coal and natural gas are "clean energy" (does that get this locked down now ....

[EDS]

yes, I mentioned Hincapie-- I'm not even a huge GH fan as racer but I've heard good things about George & Rich as people and am happy to support a South Carolina company. Same reason I ride Thomson (Macon, GA), though Thomson is arguably more unique.

I have a ton of Hincapie stuff but to say Hincapie is a SC company is to say Rapha is an English company. All of Hincapies manufacturing is done at their plant in Columbia. Design and HQ are in South Carolina.

[EDS]

my wife used to be a buyer for private label at bergdorf goodman...she traveled to italy 4x per year to see her stuff gettin' made...

this was stuff produced using the "finest" fabric and old school manufacturing and too be brutally honest, the quality wasn't that great...buttons would come loose, stitching wouldn't be finished properly, etc.

i'm not sure what all the fuss is about china. wages are lower cuz the cost of living is lower. peeps are moving out of rural areas into the cities and looking for work. export demand has improved the quality of life for many. yes there are sweat shops...i'm not debating that, but let's not make generalizations about all things made in china

there's a reason why italy, the UK, and most of continental europe is almost bankrupt...

Main beef with China is lack of environmental regulation.

[rice rocket]

If political threads are banned can't we also get off the Rapha - China - Outlandishly expensive soapbox. I know I could ignore 'em but like a moth to a flame.

They brought attention to themselves by being overly defensive on their own site.

Insert some proverb about the nail that sticks out gets hammered...

[CunegoFan]

I assume because of countless threads like this one and other forms of feedback.
Yup. They must be feeling the heat as people sneer at a startup company using nostalgia laden marketing, complete with black and white photos of riders dressed and groomed like they were born forty years earlier, to sell goods made in Chinese sweatshops and sold for jaw dropping prices. The combination of the manipulative marketing and the cheapo manufacture strikes many people as utterly phony.

[markie]

There are bigger issues confronting us, like the fact that the majority of American's think global warming is a myth and that coal and natural gas are "clean energy" (does that get this locked down now ....

Where things are made is a part of the global economy which is one of the bigger issues confronting us.

Why actively try and get threads locked down? Why not just move on?

Me so confused.

[Kirk007]

This thread - It's a weekly phenomena around here. What is left to be said that hasn't been said a thousand times? The positions have been staked out ad infinitum.

Now if the mods want to open things up and really talk about important issues, like global consumerism, environmental costs etc. etc. that would be great but I don't think it's gonna happen. We've been down this road a thousand times -not just rapha but politics and most everything interesting other than bikes. They always get shut down eventually after a big dustup, but wait, it is winter; ah I forgot, its just the perennial cabin fever manifesting itself again.

[markie]

This thread - It's a weekly phenomena around here. What is left to be said that hasn't been said a thousand times? The positions have been staked out ad infinitum.

Now if the mods want to open things up and really talk about important issues, like global consumerism, environmental costs etc. etc. that would be great but I don't think it's gonna happen.

I am still confused. I know this thread has happened before, but now is your opportunity to talk about important issues with this as a touchstone. It will happen if you make it happen. Then it will get shut-down, but it will be briefly beautiful.

[gdw]

"There are bigger issues confronting us, like the fact that the majority of American's think global warming is a myth and that coal and natural gas are "clean energy"

I'll bite.

Sorry but the majority of Americans are more concerned about staying employed or finding a job which provides a living wage. The shift of manufacturing to China hurts our workforce and the Chinese government could care less about climate change, is that the current pc term?, or clean energy. Your interest in the environment is great and pays your bills but many of us are more concerned about the things we can see that effect us now like our under-empoyed and unemployed kids and neighbors. As to Rapha, if you like their products fine, I'll buy quality products from Ibex, Foxwear, Melanzana, etc and save a few bucks while hopefully keeping a few fellow citizens employed. (does that get this locked down now ....)"

[markie]

I'll bite.



Me, too. There is only one planet and environment. Do you think environmental standards are big in China? That is part of why things are cheaper to make there...

[Fixed]

Important Chinese contributions to the world

Paper money- allows our entire banking system to work
smoothly; allows people to carry large amounts of
denominations with a minimum weight. Paper money also
allows for people to buy lots of things due to it’s
convenience.

Gunpowder- allowed for a lot of wars, assassinations,
threats and other such activities that have changed the
history of mankind, and may one day end it.


Printing- allowed such things as the Enlightenment, the
American and European revolutions, mass communication
and the manipulation of public opinion, many copies of
literature, thus circulating new and old ideas and
improving public education.

Immunology- prevented such things as the elimination of
native populations through small and chicken pox, and
other such diseases. Prolonging human life expenctancies
in most parts of the world in the 20th century.

Paper- allowed for historical documents to be preserved,
the basis of our civilization allowing other things such
as paper money and books and records, music, poetry and
a more efficient form of transmitting information than
by mouth, which distorts it.
cheers

[markie]

Important Chinese contributions to the world



Immunology- prevented such things as the elimination of
native populations through small and chicken pox, and
other such diseases. Prolonging human life expenctancies
in most parts of the world in the 20th century.



Jenner, the Englishman, is generally credited for the observation that cowpox prevented smallpox.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Jenner

[Fixed]

Jenner, the Englishman, is generally credited for the observation that cowpox prevented smallpox.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_JennerEarly History of Smallpox Prevention: The idea of deliberately exposing a healthy person to biological matter from smallpox lesions of an infected person in order to confer immunity dates back to China several centuries B.C., when Chinese doctors dried and ground up the crusts of smallpox scabs and used tubes to blow the material into the noses of healthy persons.

Jenner Uses Cowpox Virus: In 1796, British physician Edward Jenner observed that milkmaids who contracted the generally mild cowpox never came down with the more severe smallpox. (Cowpox is a disease of the teats and udders of cows and when cowpox infects humans it causes low-grade fever, lymph node swelling, and superficial lesions that are much milder than smallpox and heal without scarring. Sometimes cowpox can cause encephalitis and, in persons with a history of eczema, there is a risk of serious infection).22

Jenner experimented on an eight year old boy. He infected him with cowpox by scraping pus from lesions of a child infected with cowpox onto the skin of the boy. Later, Jenner twice challenged the boy’s immunity to smallpox by scraping pus from the lesions of a person with smallpox onto the boy’s skin. The boy never came down with smallpox and Jenner widely promoted his discovery and advocated cowpox inoculation as a prevention for smallpox.46
cheers

[markie]

Big difference between using smallpox for inoculating against smallpox vs cowpox for smallpox.

[Fixed]

Big difference between using smallpox for inoculating against smallpox vs cowpox for smallpox.
agreed
cheers

[Lovetoclimb]

China also provided the world with kung fu. And most recently provided me with a Rapha Paul Smith rain jacket :hello:

[benitosan1972]

China also provided the world with kung fu. And most recently provided me with a Rapha Paul Smith rain jacket :hello:


Haha, don't forget our Chow Mein, Fried Rice, Egg Roll, and Won Ton contributions! ;)

[Louis]

Haha, don't forget our Chow Mein, Fried Rice, Egg Roll, and Won Ton contributions! ;)

and Fortune Cookies

[JD Smith]

Conscience and ethics have no place in manufacturing or purchasing decisions, right?
After all, Rapha would never try to tie their products to an idea beyond the basic substance of the gear. :rolleyes:

I wonder if they'll feel so positive about the Chinese manufacturing environment when fake Rapha gear starts showing up.
But undoubtedly, any knockoffs will be made in the lazy, declining, unmotivated, over-rated West. If you can't beat 'em, join 'em.

[Kirk007]

aye,aye, aye, must be a slow night in Serottaville. Now if I can only get Legend ti to play we can debate who is more biased, Fox or the NYT, Obama vs ??? and it will be just like the old days! Nah, the old days were never as good as we remember them. Movin' on, y'all have fun.

[benitosan1972]

and Fortune Cookies


And dim sum, egg puffs, and Lucy Liu... I'm hungry now! :banana:

[gavingould]

Since we're ranting, I'll have a go. I've had just enough to drink...

I for one think it is hilarious that Rapha is always the scapegoat for "overpriced, overhyped, sweatshop made" etc etc etc. Maybe I've not been around long enough, but I'd say those same arguments could be applied to Assos (whose advertising I find repulsive, by the way - regardless of the quality of the goods.) I don't think I've ever heard of anyone talking down on Assos, but I don't see much difference between them and the guys with the cursive R except one's been around a good bit longer.

Assos states on their own website - "ASSOS wholly or partially owns exclusive manufacturing assembly plants in Slovenia, Greece and Bulgaria, as well as Switzerland."

Nobody thinks there are sweatshops or similar worker conditions in these countries? Maybe some, maybe not. Remember the industrial revolution? America, England, and just about everywhere else were whole countries of what we'd now call sweatshops. China is developing in a similar fashion, but on a larger, accelerated scale. India is following closely behind. America has been digging its own grave for some time now, thinking we're so much smarter and better than everyone else while the majority of working stiffs have gotten marginalized out of being able to afford domestic-produced goods. And the quality of those domestic goods hasn't always been too stellar - why'd American car companies fail? Long story, but you can break it down to relatively high price, and low quality.

Above all... Don't like it? Don't buy it! Be glad you have a choice now because it might not always be that way. We could all be riding Magnas or Chinarellos in a few years because that's either all that's available, or all we can afford.

[Kontact]

I don't think today's "issue" is where Rapha makes their stuff. The issue is that Rapha is attempting to put a happy face on something that is, at best, an unfortunate fact of life.

It's a bit like lab animals: It's one thing to be okay with the use of lab animals to develop medicines, it's quite another to pretend the animals like it, too.

Rapha, in attempting to mitigate a criticism about their cheap production and premium prices, have only made the situation more obvious and obnoxious.


Some Occupy Wall Street fashion school graduate hipsters ought to produce a US made line of Rapha-like stuff. And we should look at the two companies and make the right choice. The hipsters might not get as rich as the Rapha owners, but Americans would get poor at a little bit slower rate.

[harryblack]

re: Assos--

http://bikesnobnyc.blogspot.com/2011/06/simply-complicated-give-me.html

Since we're ranting, I'll have a go. I've had just enough to drink...

I for one think it is hilarious that Rapha is always the scapegoat for "overpriced, overhyped, sweatshop made" etc etc etc. Maybe I've not been around long enough, but I'd say those same arguments could be applied to Assos (whose advertising I find repulsive, by the way - regardless of the quality of the goods.) I don't think I've ever heard of anyone talking down on Assos, but I don't see much difference between them and the guys with the cursive R except one's been around a good bit longer.

Assos states on their own website - "ASSOS wholly or partially owns exclusive manufacturing assembly plants in Slovenia, Greece and Bulgaria, as well as Switzerland."

Nobody thinks there are sweatshops or similar worker conditions in these countries? Maybe some, maybe not. Remember the industrial revolution? America, England, and just about everywhere else were whole countries of what we'd now call sweatshops. China is developing in a similar fashion, but on a larger, accelerated scale. India is following closely behind. America has been digging its own grave for some time now, thinking we're so much smarter and better than everyone else while the majority of working stiffs have gotten marginalized out of being able to afford domestic-produced goods. And the quality of those domestic goods hasn't always been too stellar - why'd American car companies fail? Long story, but you can break it down to relatively high price, and low quality.

Above all... Don't like it? Don't buy it! Be glad you have a choice now because it might not always be that way. We could all be riding Magnas or Chinarellos in a few years because that's either all that's available, or all we can afford.

[victoryfactory]

from $80. T shirts that cost $5. to manufacture to SmallPox
Wow!

I just got a major case of TDRW*





*Thread Drift Related Whiplash!

Or, threadlash, or whipthread or driftlash....
there is a new forum related disorder there just searching for a catchy name.

I need to visit my Chiropractor.

VF

[William]

Nothing in that piece was particularly surprising, except perhaps for the statement that there are no more sweatshops in China.

I'd also say that wages up 100% in the last 12 months and 20-30% in the next 12 months suggests two things: rising prices in the West, regardless of what we think our inflation should be, and wage levels that were way too low a year ago and quite possibly now....



BS and next to nothing in most cases.




William

[palincss]

They brought attention to themselves by being overly defensive on their own site.

Insert some proverb about the nail that sticks out gets hammered...

Or about the lady protesting too much...?

[cfox]

All I can say is that if they are outsourcing their labor to China, they should pass the cost of the cheaper labor onto the consumers with lower prices.
huh?? Rapha doesn't owe you, or anyone, anything. Their obligation as a business is to make money and charge what the market will bear for their products. Anything else is either charity, or the business decision to be a discount retailer.

[oldpotatoe]

All I can say is that if they are outsourcing their labor to China, they should pass the cost of the cheaper labor onto the consumers with lower prices. I love their product, design, and quality, but I'm anti their prices, and now that I know some/all of their stuff is assembled overseas, I'm definitely anti their prices (which is ok as I try to buy used Rapha here & other places).

Aren't Pinarellos made in the same factory in Taiwan as some generic-carbon frames? But the Pinarellos cost 3x-4x vs Taiwanese "Chinarellos?"

http://pinarellochina.com

[Lovetoclimb]

I used to work for a certain Japanese auto manufacturer and they had a concept that I think is very appropriate to this topic: "Go and See". Simply put, if you want to truly know the conditions of something, the only way you can do so is to go and see it for yourself. Do the investigation, collect the data, and then form your own conclusions. This of course leads me to ask the open question to anyone here: have you been to a KTC controlled manufacturing site and seen first-hand Rapha products being made? Or are we speculating here based on what we "know" from other companies, news media, stories from friends, etc . . . ?

[93legendti]

Interesting piece. Makes one wonder how Ibex can manufacture most all their products in the US, sell them for less than Rapha, and make a profit.
I'm sitting here in my Ibex Shak Lite, cozy as can be...a rep just told me that they will start using wool made in America next year. I'm glad people like Rapha, but I've never been tempted by Rapha's stuff.

[Wimpy]

This thread - It's a weekly phenomena around here. What is left to be said that hasn't been said a thousand times? The positions have been staked out ad infinitum......


How else are people that impact nothing in the big picture to feel better about themselves then a weekly rant as to how they would change the world were they king for the day.

Give them their sport, it's meaningless.

[tiretrax]

How else are people that impact nothing in the big picture to feel better about themselves then a weekly rant as to how they would change the world were they king for the day.

Give them their sport, it's meaningless.
And let them Occupy Wall Street.

[oldpotatoe]

There are no sweatshops in China because there are no pockets of underpaid workers in a country full of underpaid workers. China is a sweatshop.

That said, I'm not sure why we're supposed to feel good about exporting our dollars to improve other people's pay while our economy is dying - especially when those people won't buy a single US made item in their lifetimes. Extreme trade deficits are hardly something to feel great about.

See this all the time and I don't disagree but what do you suggest?

Tariffs? Trade war? Change the corporate tax structure? Are unions to blame? Very high, union driven, mandated pension and health care requirements that make products uncompetitve? Remove safety and environmental regulations that protect workers but make things made in the US more expensive?

My wife works for a company that has all their products made in 2 factories in China. The workers are being paid more than they ever have been paid(mostly from the rural areas), they have free housing, 2 free meals per day, free health care.

The surrounding city is the dirtiest that she has even seen(and as a former military wife, we have been in some 'interesting' places). They care little about most of the things westerners care about, like worker safety, not polluting, not illegally manipulating the financial envionment.

I'm not surprised business owners go to China or VietNam, or where ever, cuz it's cheaper. And so as a capitalist institution, they want to make a profit.

Unless there is a fundamental shift in US manufacturing, or something artificial like tariffs, don't expect any change.

[William]

I used to work for a certain Japanese auto manufacturer and they had a concept that I think is very appropriate to this topic: "Go and See". Simply put, if you want to truly know the conditions of something, the only way you can do so is to go and see it for yourself. Do the investigation, collect the data, and then form your own conclusions. This of course leads me to ask the open question to anyone here: have you been to a KTC controlled manufacturing site and seen first-hand Rapha products being made? Or are we speculating here based on what we "know" from other companies, news media, stories from friends, etc . . . ?


Experience from dealing first hand with multiple Chinese mfr's here.



William

[zap]

Henry Ford recognized that he had to build cars such that his employees
could afford them.

Using cpi, a new Model T today would sell for roughly US$4,000.

[tiretrax]

See this all the time and I don't disagree but what do you suggest?

Tariffs? Trade war? Change the corporate tax structure? Are unions to blame? Very high, union driven, mandated pension and health care requirements that make products uncompetitve? Remove safety and environmental regulations that protect workers but make things made in the US more expensive?

My wife works for a company that has all their products made in 2 factories in China. The workers are being paid more than they ever have been paid(mostly from the rural areas), they have free housing, 2 free meals per day, free health care.

The surrounding city is the dirtiest that she has even seen(and as a former military wife, we have been in some 'interesting' places). They care little about most of the things westerners care about, like worker safety, not polluting, not illegally manipulating the financial envionment.

I'm not surprised business owners go to China or VietNam, or where ever, cuz it's cheaper. And so as a capitalist institution, they want to make a profit.

Unless there is a fundamental shift in US manufacturing, or something artificial like tariffs, don't expect any change.

+1000

The most ironic thing about these rants is that the ranters usually have iPhones, Huyandais, Nikes, and other products made in low cost countries. As someone above said, the U.S. was in the same place as China 150-200 years ago.

The post WWII era was anomolous for our manufacturing dominance because the rest of the world was either rebuilding from the destruction of the war or continued to be developing (or undeveloped) nations.

[Kontact]

See this all the time and I don't disagree but what do you suggest?

Tariffs? Trade war? Change the corporate tax structure? Are unions to blame? Very high, union driven, mandated pension and health care requirements that make products uncompetitve? Remove safety and environmental regulations that protect workers but make things made in the US more expensive?

My wife works for a company that has all their products made in 2 factories in China. The workers are being paid more than they ever have been paid(mostly from the rural areas), they have free housing, 2 free meals per day, free health care.

The surrounding city is the dirtiest that she has even seen(and as a former military wife, we have been in some 'interesting' places). They care little about most of the things westerners care about, like worker safety, not polluting, not illegally manipulating the financial envionment.

I'm not surprised business owners go to China or VietNam, or where ever, cuz it's cheaper. And so as a capitalist institution, they want to make a profit.

Unless there is a fundamental shift in US manufacturing, or something artificial like tariffs, don't expect any change.
A reasonable trade treaty would be a good place to start. The Congress does have the power and responsibility to simply make it illegal for the US as a country to spend more overseas then it sells, or at least put some sort of limit on the hemoraging. If that isn't defending the country, I don't know what is.

The government can also put restrictions on businesses where they get their infrastructure. They already have a model of that from the military where everything necessary for defense must be produced in the US. And then there's tariffs, etc.

But consumers could also be a little choosier with their product selection. Lot's of people choose to recycle and to use efficient cars - they do that because they feel there's a good reason, and they put their money where they believe in it. Not going broke as a country might be something to believe in.

Finally, more people could form cooperative, non-profit type companies in the US whose structure avoids the endemic profit culture of inhuman corporations. Such companies can be enormously fruitfull for the iemployees/members, but never sacrifice personnel for profits.


People talk like the current state of affairs is just a "fact of life". It isn't. It is a series of choices made by elected officials, consumers and entrepenuers to pursue a damaging economic model. Alcoholics can stop drinking, we can stop outsourcing. Rapha can serve as a rallying point for bicycle consumers to stop throwing the future away on Chinese hipster fashion.

[Wimpy]

....... Rapha can serve as a rallying point for bicycle consumers to stop throwing the future away on Chinese hipster fashion.

It is NOT Rapha responsibly to be used as a rallying point around anything.

If all you do gooders want a Rallying point, start you own damn Rallying point and stop try to tell others to do it for you.

Stop talking and start doing!

Amazing!

P.S. If I were King for the day all little Children would get a baby Unicorn!

[Kontact]

It is NOT Rapha responsibly to be used as a rallying point around anything.

If all you do gooders want a Rallying point, start you own damn Rallying point and stop try to tell others to do it for you.

Stop talking and start doing!

Amazing!
You misunderstood me. I certainly didn't mean Rapha should do anything!

Dislike of Rapha's business model can be a catalyst for people to start taking action. I doubt Rapha would enjoy that.

[oldpotatoe]

A reasonable trade treaty would be a good place to start. The Congress does have the power and responsibility to simply make it illegal for the US as a country to spend more overseas then it sells, or at least put some sort of limit on the hemoraging. If that isn't defending the country, I don't know what is.

The government can also put restrictions on businesses where they get their infrastructure. They already have a model of that from the military where everything necessary for defense must be produced in the US. And then there's tariffs, etc.

But consumers could also be a little choosier with their product selection. Lot's of people choose to recycle and to use efficient cars - they do that because they feel there's a good reason, and they put their money where they believe in it. Not going broke as a country might be something to believe in.

Finally, more people could form cooperative, non-profit type companies in the US whose structure avoids the endemic profit culture of inhuman corporations. Such companies can be enormously fruitfull for the iemployees/members, but never sacrifice personnel for profits.


People talk like the current state of affairs is just a "fact of life". It isn't. It is a series of choices made by elected officials, consumers and entrepenuers to pursue a damaging economic model. Alcoholics can stop drinking, we can stop outsourcing. Rapha can serve as a rallying point for bicycle consumers to stop throwing the future away on Chinese hipster fashion.

Couple of things come to mind.

First the 'average' consumer doesn't care where his toilet paper comes from as long as it's cheap.

Second, most people have no conscience when it comes to spending their scarce resources. They look to see if the product performance meets their expectations and expected price. Most won't pay more for the same thing just cuz it's made in one place or another. Some will, most will not.

Third, more government control isn't the answer. More government, restricting who can make or buy what where is only going to make things more expensive. Should the government subsidize US companies? Like farm subsidies for agra-business? Does Mansanto really need a subsidy? Does Chevron?

I say this with great respect but I'm talking about the average consumer in the US. The guy with a job(hopefully) like plumbers, roofers, factory workers, the people firmly in the middle to lower middle class, the majority of americans. They don't buy Prius' or hybrids in general, they shop at Walmart, they don't ride $7000 Serottas.

People don't buy hybrids cuz it's better for the environment, they buy one because it makes their gas bill less.

[Kontact]

Couple of things come to mind.

First the 'average' consumer doesn't care where his toilet paper comes from as long as it's cheap.

Second, most people have no conscience when it comes to spending their scarce resources. They look to see if the product performance meets their expectations and expected price. Most won't pay more for the same thing just cuz it's made in one place or another. Some will, most will not.

Third, more government control isn't the answer. More government, restricting who can make or buy what where is only going to make things more expensive. Should the government subsidize US companies? Like farm subsidies for agra-business? Does Mansanto really need a subsidy? Does Chevron?

I say this with great respect but I'm talking about the average consumer in the US. The guy with a job(hopefully) like plumbers, roofers, factory workers, the people firmly in the middle to lower middle class, the majority of americans. They don't buy Prius' or hybrids in general, they shop at Walmart, they don't ride $7000 Serottas.

People don't buy hybrids cuz it's better for the environment, they buy one because it makes their gas bill less.
The government created corporations as legal entities. After having done that the government certainly doesn't have clean hands and can continue to dirty them.

And if the government imposed trade restrictions make things more expensive, why is that a bad thing? It is no different than health care - people will buy what's available, even at a higher price. But the money they spend stays in the economy, making everyone better off. Or are you saying there would be Rapha smuggling rings?

And the small percentage of people who do recycle or join tea parties can be the same special interest groups that makes the changes happen - because most Americans aren't politically active, either, and won't do anything to prevent the changes.

[oldpotatoe]

The government created corporations as legal entities. After having done that the government certainly doesn't have clean hands and can continue to dirty them.

And if the government imposed trade restrictions make things more expensive, why is that a bad thing? It is no different than health care - people will buy what's available, even at a higher price. But the money they spend stays in the economy, making everyone better off. Or are you saying there would be Rapha smuggling rings?

And the small percentage of people who do recycle or join tea parties can be the same special interest groups that makes the changes happen - because most Americans aren't politically active, either, and won't do anything to prevent the changes.

Again, talking about Joe Average US citizen, making things more expensive means he can't buy it, when at a higher price. I think talking about Rapha and implying that's the same as somebody making $35,000 per year buying clothes for their 6 year old and 8 year old is a stretch. If Johnny's sneakers go from $35 to $65, they won't be bought.

Health care? Look up how many americans' have no health care insurance because they can't afford it. Look up how many people in the US declare medical cost bankruptcy.

[Ahneida Ride]

Last summer ... I needed a good pair of hedge clippers.

Went to 5 different stores ....

Every time ... made in China ....

I tried .... I would have even paid a premium to purchase an
American made product. I could not locate it.

[Ahneida Ride]

Tbecause most Americans aren't politically active, either, and won't do anything to prevent the changes.

How many American favored separating from Britain in 1776?
25% ? that is a # I heard at one time.

If Joe Blow and Joe Ann Sixpack every got organized, stuff might happen.

We need a BYOP party .... Buy Your Own Politician.

[Kontact]

Again, talking about Joe Average US citizen, making things more expensive means he can't buy it, when at a higher price. I think talking about Rapha and implying that's the same as somebody making $35,000 per year buying clothes for their 6 year old and 8 year old is a stretch. If Johnny's sneakers go from $35 to $65, they won't be bought.

Health care? Look up how many americans' have no health care insurance because they can't afford it. Look up how many people in the US declare medical cost bankruptcy.
The point was that people buy what they need at the price offered. And if the cost of goods stimulates the economy because the money stays in the economy, everyone has more money.

Health care costs are only "rising" in comparison to wages. If wages in general were increasing in proportion, health care costs wouldn't be going up. But health care is an excellent example of what happens when you have a country whose economy is all service and retail, and very little production. Cost go up when the snake eats its tail. Health care just demonstrates how we are growing poorer.

[Kontact]

I realize some of what I wrote may sound like pie in the sky. But the alternatives are pretty much blind ignorance or fatalism.

[bgcycles]

Last summer ... I needed a good pair of hedge clippers.

Went to 5 different stores ....

Every time ... made in China ....

I tried .... I would have even paid a premium to purchase an
American made product. I could not locate it.

Check out www.sopwamtos.com
We specialize in promoting "Stuff made in the USA" (and you can buy stuff from our Online Store)
I too will pay more for products made in America.
Regards,
Bruce Gordon
www.bgcycles.com

[beeatnik]

Things both sides can usually agree on:

Global capitalism is a construct. And like any human construct (redundant?) it's imperfect. However, since it's more "efficient" than past models, we tend to think it's an improvable system. Economists, historians, politicians and intellectuals will argue (until something new materializes) whether tweaks or new paradigms are the answer.

This construct, as any game, has rules. The codification of these rules is the legal system. Over time, rules are modified, expanded, abandoned, etc, in order to allow the game to self-perpetuate. Good analogy is pro football and the recent rules established to protect the passer, ie, no quarterback means no game. At the risk of sounding pedantic, games have winners and losers. Winners usually have more power to protect their positions and interests.

Most sane individuals accept that dogmatic, fundamentalist world views are incompatible with economic growth (at least in global capitalism). Unlike the Bible or even the Constitution, capitalism thrives on assimilating new technologies

Bottom line, the system doesn't exist to allow individuals to pursue happiness or self-fulfillment. The system exists to perpetuate the system. Whether or not it's a good system or the best system or an improvable system, that all depends on your position. Some are born quarterbacks and some are born punters. Show me a quarterback who wants the game to change to provide the punter with more influence...

As for Rapha, they're a business. They care about labor costs. Labor costs are probably a bigger input for them because they don't own their own manufacturing facilities. With outsourcing it's all about scaling. It can make sense for a small business to outsource their accounting, but not so much for a medium sized business. A large business can go either way.

At the same time, I don't think the guys at Rapha are as smart as we think they are. More than likely the business was built with angel funding. It wasn't an "organic" development and they were forced to come up with a price model which didn't reflect market realities. In other words, their pricing structure is really not a linear function of manufacturing costs. Yikes, in reality, EU or UK made jerseys could be produced and sold for less than current prices, but the chinese producers provide a higher quality product.

[Charles M]

...

[Kontact]

Beetnik,

I would agree that it isn't Raphas responsibility to do anything. They just seem like the poster child for the dangers of globalism to mature economies.

[JeremyS]

When we founded Cedar Cycling, we wanted to do things a certain way, so we built everything domestically.

We did this so we can bike to our factories, visit our suppliers in person, work with local vendors for patterning/grading/production management, and keep about 75% of what we spend per garment in the US, and most of that in our local economy. I can tell you we don't use sweatshops because we're constantly visiting our factories. There's a level of transparency working with local contractors that you can't beat.

There's certain things we will have to go out of town for eventually unless we buy the machines - laser cutting, seam taping, seam welding - but that's in the future. Even then we'll be going to LA and Vancouver, not to China.

We can do this because we're building a primarily direct business with limited dealers. The blended margins aren't nearly as good as if we were producing in China, but we also don't answer to investors on that point. We also aren't a marketing company that happens to make product, so we're not spending money on anything other than making product, shipping product, and the minimum infrastructure to sell our product.

Side note regarding domestic wool production: it may not be next year. It will be Very Soon Now, but there's a lot of new machines that need to get purchased in order to spin the finer yarns, and knit those yarns. It won't be merino either, but (I believe) the rambouillet, the French cousin of the merino. Same performance. It will be tough to get the wool-synthetic blends made we need even once the infrastructure is up, but we are pursuing the goal of domestic textiles all the way down to the fiber level.

[93legendti]

Beetnik,

I would agree that it isn't Raphas responsibility to do anything. They just seem like the poster child for the dangers of globalism to mature economies.
You see a poster child. I see an opportunity for someone who wants to make locally and make profit based upon volume and quality.

[Kontact]

You see a poster child. I see an opportunity for someone who wants to make locally and make profit based upon volume and quality.
Are you referring to my suggestion that people start their own local clothing companies? Or are you saying Rapha should shift to local production?

There are a couple US made cycling companies. I'll have to dig them up.

[bgcycles]

When we founded Cedar Cycling, we wanted to do things a certain way, so we built everything domestically.

We did this so we can bike to our factories, visit our suppliers in person, work with local vendors for patterning/grading/production management, and keep about 75% of what we spend per garment in the US, and most of that in our local economy. I can tell you we don't use sweatshops because we're constantly visiting our factories. There's a level of transparency working with local contractors that you can't beat.

There's certain things we will have to go out of town for eventually unless we buy the machines - laser cutting, seam taping, seam welding - but that's in the future. Even then we'll be going to LA and Vancouver, not to China.

We can do this because we're building a primarily direct business with limited dealers. The blended margins aren't nearly as good as if we were producing in China, but we also don't answer to investors on that point. We also aren't a marketing company that happens to make product, so we're not spending money on anything other than making product, shipping product, and the minimum infrastructure to sell our product.

Side note regarding domestic wool production: it may not be next year. It will be Very Soon Now, but there's a lot of new machines that need to get purchased in order to spin the finer yarns, and knit those yarns. It won't be merino either, but (I believe) the rambouillet, the French cousin of the merino. Same performance. It will be tough to get the wool-synthetic blends made we need even once the infrastructure is up, but we are pursuing the goal of domestic textiles all the way down to the fiber level.

WELL SAID - That is the Spirit of SOPWAMTOS.
I hope the people who care become customers.
Give me a call - we should talk.
Regards,
Bruce Gordon
Bruce Gordon Cycles
www.bgcycles.com

[JeremyS]

Are you referring to my suggestion that people start their own local clothing companies? Or are you saying Rapha should shift to local production?

There are a couple US made cycling companies. I'll have to dig them up.


See my post 2 above yours. I started my own with a close friend.

[JeremyS]

WELL SAID - That is the Spirit of SOPWAMTOS.
I hope the people who care become customers.
Give me a call - we should talk.
Regards,
Bruce Gordon
Bruce Gordon Cycles
www.bgcycles.com


Will do, or I'll come up and visit in the next couple weeks.

[Wimpy]

If Rapha really felt China were simply the very pinacle of craftsmenship, why work so hard to paint a hard core euro image?


Why isnt this the image on their home page:

http://static.guim.co.uk/Guardian/news/gallery/2007/jul/18/china.pollution/PD8893070@In-this-photo-release-5215.jpg

Heck this would look fantastic in black and white...

http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/files/images/china-smog74003740_0.jpg



Of course there's nothing at all wrong with the quality of products that can be had. If the QC is extremely tight, fantastic products come out of the far east.



But trying to paint chinese product with an old world Euro hard core image among several genuine european clothing manufacturers is a stretch...


The balls required to keep a straight face while telling people that you chose chinese production on quality grounds versus production cost are massive.

Don't hide your feelings!

[Kontact]

See my post 2 above yours. I started my own with a close friend.
I will look into your line. Thanks!

Anyone know where I can get a molded saddle built for my company in the US? :D

[MadRocketSci]

and Fortune Cookies

fun fact, they are either of japanese or japanese/chinese american (SF or LA) origin...

[Charles M]

Don't hide your feelings!


lol, I tried, but you caught me!


I know of at least a dozen companies who either had to hire full time staff to live / work in the actual production facilities for QC...

and or have people traveling back and fourth in almost constant attendance strictly for QC...



That doesnt happen because the level of quality in China is the highest possible...



The quiality can be fantastic. Is fantastic for lots of things.

That's different than suggesting that China is the tip top level where product quality trickles down from...

[JeremyS]

I know of at least a dozen companies who either had to hire full time staff to live / work in the actual production facilities for QC...
and or have people traveling back and fourth in almost constant attendance strictly for QC...


That doesnt happen because the level of quality in China is the highest possible...

The quiality can be fantastic. Is fantastic for lots of things.

That's different than suggesting that China is the tip top level where product quality trickles down from...

I have seen amazing work come out of China. Some of the best outerwear factories in the world are there. However, most of those factories don't contract - they're owned or at full capacity by the brands making there.

And yeah, you have to have a staff there to make sure everything goes right.

[William]

I have seen amazing work come out of China. Some of the best outerwear factories in the world are there. However, most of those factories don't contract - they're owned or at full capacity by the brands making there.

And yeah, you have to have a staff there to make sure everything goes right.


100% correct. The companies that have good quality product coming out of China do this.





William

[JeremyS]

100% correct. The companies that have good quality product coming out of China do this.

William

Those factories have also been spending piles of money on machines for nearly 30 years now, so they do have a bit of a lead on domestic manufacturing for making really technical things.

Side project to Cedar: Raising money to build a modern apparel factory in Oakland. Anyone got a spare $2m around to seed it?

[Charles M]

you dont have to own your Asian production to have very good product...

contracting with heavy monitoring works just fine for several folks.

[Louis]

Side project to Cedar: Raising money to build a modern apparel factory in Oakland. Anyone got a spare $2m around to seed it?

Around here they use Tax Increment Financing (not without some controversy)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_increment_financing

[William]

you dont have to own your Asian production to have very good product...

contracting with heavy monitoring works just fine for several folks.


That is true, with an emphasis on heavy. And making sure you have someone there who will stop the defect material before it get put on the ship.





William

[Kirk Pacenti]

PEZ said: "But trying to paint chinese product with an old world Euro hard core image among several genuine european clothing manufacturers is a stretch...


The balls required to keep a straight face while telling people that you chose chinese production on quality grounds versus production cost are massive."

I think this is what I most dislike about the brand. I don't really care that it's made in China, or that it's overpriced. They do a brilliant job of the marketing the image of some exclusive, hard core, lifestyle, social club...whatever... They execute it well and it's obviously working for them. (But I sometimes get the feeling they might actually be mocking their potential customers - another thread.)

I've never identified with it because everything about the image they're putting out seems contrived, "manufactured", lacking authenticity. It seems to be more [concerned] about perpetuating that image than offering any real substance...however good the products may actually be.

Will be checking out Cedar for sure.

Rapha = American Idol

[akelman]

Rapha = American Idol

Say more, please. Because my first reaction was, "that's clever". My second reaction was, "that's clever but lacks any foundation in reality". And my third reaction was to ask you to explain what you mean.

Also, for what it's worth, I like Rapha stuff because the styling is classic and the gear fits me well. I've never watched a Rapha video. I don't tool around the Rapha website. And I've never been on a Rapha-sponsored ride. Which is to say, it's not a brand to me, it's just a product. And now that I've found that Torm jerseys are just as nice and far cheaper, I'll probably only ever buy Rapha bibs, which, again, are classic and fit me well.

If I knew enough about American Idol, I'd make a cute allusion to the show here. Oh well.

[1centaur]

To show what a minor economics geek I am, I've been thinking about this cost of labor vs. societal good thing since at least my early college days (and that was pretty long ago now). I think it's still considered true that buying from the folks that make it best/cheapest (i.e., specialization) is best for the aggregate GDP because efficiencies and profits are maximized and reinvested and the cycle continues. Adam Smith and all that. The argument pertains both in the US and globally. In many ways I think the debt crises heading for all Western economies over the next 20-40 years reflect lack of productivity vs. promises made (and asked for), and much of the lost productivity comes from artificial constraints on the profit motive. Good intentions can hurt as much as greed in the long run, which is a sad truth that most will never contemplate.

But the aggregate economic good is often constructed at the shorter-term expense of those not able to compete - expensive labor, for example. They only have so much time on the planet to save and play and send their kids to college, so while global potential GDP is maximized by capitalist imperatives, personal happiness and security are not. But if inefficient sources of goods/services are favored arbitrarily (buy American; use union labor; trade wars) then long-term wealth is diminished.

The key question (which I remember contemplating at a spot on the road between Hadley and Amherst, MA those many years ago when I saw a barn which said "Buy American" on it) is whether intentional inefficiency for society is somehow better for more people for more of the time. When we lose out on new medicines for an extra 20 years because the wealth is not there to research them, or Joe's Autobody goes out of business in 2010 because he kept 15 workers on when he should have fired 5 of them in 2008, is all that lost upside worth it? And on a bigger scale, if one country lives that way and another doesn't, and the other country gets richer and builds weapons and takes over the "nicer" country, is that worth it?

I think there are no easy answers. For many people, they'd take the "nicer" route because they could not care less about the long sweep of history and they are not natural winners in capitalism. And that blinkered self-absorption is not any different for the profit maximizer sending all his labor needs to China because he's more likely to succeed that way. Both are forms of self interest, and typical of human nature (my perpetual drum beat in these threads).

My call is that markets will get things right more than a few people (government) most of the time, if one includes in markets the market of ideas expressed politically. That is why an educated (not brain washed) populace is so important - to get the market of ideas as well formed as possible. Markets are flexible; people are dogmatic. Markets have information; people are more limited. When I applaud free markets, I am denigrating constraints on better solutions by people who can never contemplate the consequences of their actions as well as they should. But like very other vaguely cogent capitalist, I want sufficient regulations/constraints to keep the whole machine moving towards a bigger pie

When Rapha chooses to produce in China, in part it does so from the fear that making less margin makes it less likely to survive. I understand that fear. And I applaud those companies that go the other way because they believe it's the right thing to do. Neither approach is wrong and both approaches are wrong, just in different ways.

[Kirk Pacenti]

...And my third reaction was to ask you to explain what you mean.



American Idol = contrived, "manufactured", lacking authenticity...however good the products may actually be.

[akelman]

Authenticity lacks authenticity, I'm afraid. But I hear you anyway. Thanks for taking the time to clarify.

[54ny77]

breathe deep the epic air. :p

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-12-15/death-by-air-in-beijing-shows-china-s-heart-risk-from-worsening-pollution.html

[bloody sunday]

When we founded Cedar Cycling, we wanted to do things a certain way, so we built everything domestically.

We did this so we can bike to our factories, visit our suppliers in person, work with local vendors for patterning/grading/production management, and keep about 75% of what we spend per garment in the US, and most of that in our local economy. I can tell you we don't use sweatshops because we're constantly visiting our factories. There's a level of transparency working with local contractors that you can't beat.

There's certain things we will have to go out of town for eventually unless we buy the machines - laser cutting, seam taping, seam welding - but that's in the future. Even then we'll be going to LA and Vancouver, not to China.

We can do this because we're building a primarily direct business with limited dealers. The blended margins aren't nearly as good as if we were producing in China, but we also don't answer to investors on that point. We also aren't a marketing company that happens to make product, so we're not spending money on anything other than making product, shipping product, and the minimum infrastructure to sell our product.

Side note regarding domestic wool production: it may not be next year. It will be Very Soon Now, but there's a lot of new machines that need to get purchased in order to spin the finer yarns, and knit those yarns. It won't be merino either, but (I believe) the rambouillet, the French cousin of the merino. Same performance. It will be tough to get the wool-synthetic blends made we need even once the infrastructure is up, but we are pursuing the goal of domestic textiles all the way down to the fiber level.

I live in Oakland, and I'm really looking forward to your line to come out. Singed up for the mailing list, let us know!

[Kontact]

When Rapha chooses to produce in China, in part it does so from the fear that making less margin makes it less likely to survive. I understand that fear. And I applaud those companies that go the other way because they believe it's the right thing to do. Neither approach is wrong and both approaches are wrong, just in different ways.
A very thoughtful post. And really, Rapha is not to blame for its choices.

But "survival" is a tricky concept. Being competitive today to pull ahead at the expense of not having future customers to sell to is not a great survival strategy.

And we do not live in a global village. When jobs become too scarce, American's can't just go to China or Vietnam and get a job there. We participate in global trade only as much as we can stomach. We have incredibly strict import regulations on medical tech, weapons and vehicles. Many of those regulations are really about commerce, even if dressed in the clothes of public safety.

The US does not have free trade, and never really has. But anytime someone talks about regulating the trade deficit problem everyone acts like we're all libertarians.

The median gross income of the US is something over $30,000. The world median income is more like $5000. Does anyone actually believe that we can just average out with the rest of the world without society breaking down? Or is global trade supposed to raise the income of the other 6 billion people up to our level by selling us cheaper sportswear? The math of globalized economy does not work out, or at least not in our favor.

[Mudbug]

Ralpha has things made in China for one reason and only one reason, cheap labor. Cheap labor helps to maximize profits.

[Louis]

The median gross income of the US is something over $30,000. The world median income is more like $5000. Does anyone actually believe that we can just average out with the rest of the world without society breaking down?

We (US citizens) can all get degrees in Finance and work at Goldman Sachs.

[Kirk Pacenti]

Authenticity lacks authenticity, I'm afraid. But I hear you anyway. Thanks for taking the time to clarify.

Disingenuous may have been a better word.

Fwiw, I think the stuff looks nice and I hear it's well made. It's the way the stuff is marketed that I don't identify with and why I'll likely never purchase any.

I've only watched one Rapha video and it reinforced my perception of the company. My first thought was "I wonder when they'll start releasing videos in which they reenact 'epic' stages of the Tour?"...

Cheers,
KP

[akelman]

It's the way the stuff is marketed that I don't identify with and why I'd likely never purchase any.

Because I started buying their stuff before I became aware of the marketing campaigns, I think of the marketing campaigns as a kind of spoof (that dude? without a helmet? epic? really?), almost like a late-70s Saturday Night Live faux commercial. It just seems so over-the-top and silly to me that I can't believe anyone is into it. That said, I'm not very brand-identified in any way that I can think of. I love Serottas but not really more than other bikes. I love Apple products, but at the end of the day a phone is a phone and a glorified typewriter/web surfer is a glorified typewriter/web surfer. I do have a couple of very fancy mechanical watches, but it's never occurred to me to buy another watch by the same maker -- at least not because it's made by the same maker.

I think at root it comes down to the fact that I'm a middle-aged dude whose identity isn't very aspirational any more. I'm pretty much who I'm going to be at this point. A new jersey or bibs or even the most epic ride ever isn't going to change that. And my sense of who I am hinges on my family and my work much more than on what kind of car I drive, what kind of bike I ride, or what kind gear I wear. That doesn't mean I don't like nice cars, bikes, and gear, but it does mean that I don't get very caught up in branding. That said, I'm really not judging anyone who does. I'm not sure that building an identity atop my work is any healthier than building an identity atop some really good brands would be. Anyway, it's not like these things are mutually exclusive. A person can love his family and his job and his Rapha tea cozy in something like equal measure, right?

On the other hand, questions of responsible consumption are important to me. And the decline of American manufacturing is deeply worrisome, so I suppose I should spend some time thinking about whether more Rapha is in my future. For now, though, I think I'm going to try to figure out why people watch American Idol.

[Kirk Pacenti]

Because I started buying their stuff before I became aware of the marketing campaigns, I think of the marketing campaigns as a kind of spoof (that dude? without a helmet? epic? really?), almost like a late-70s Saturday Night Live faux commercial. It just seems so over-the-top and silly to me that I can't believe anyone is into it. That said, I'm not very brand-identified in any way that I can think of. I love Serottas but not really more than other bikes. I love Apple products, but at the end of the day a phone is a phone and a glorified typewriter/web surfer is a glorified typewriter/web surfer. I do have a couple of very fancy mechanical watches, but it's never occurred to me to buy another watch by the same maker -- at least not because it's made by the same maker.

I think at root it comes down to the fact that I'm a middle-aged dude whose identity isn't very aspirational any more. I'm pretty much who I'm going to be at this point. A new jersey or bibs or even the most epic ride ever isn't going to change that. And my sense of who I am hinges on my family and my work much more than on what kind of car I drive, what kind of bike I ride, or what kind gear I wear. That doesn't mean I don't like nice cars, bikes, and gear, but it does mean that I don't get very caught up in branding. That said, I'm really not judging anyone who does. I'm not sure that building an identity atop my work is any healthier than building an identity atop some really good brands would be. Anyway, it's not like these things are mutually exclusive. A person can love his family and his job and his Rapha tea cozy in something like equal measure, right?

On the other hand, questions of responsible consumption are important to me. And the decline of American manufacturing is deeply worrisome, so I suppose I should spend some time thinking about whether more Rapha is in my future. For now, though, I think I'm going to try to figure out why people watch American Idol.

It sounds like we are on the same page.

[93legendti]

Are you referring to my suggestion that people start their own local clothing companies? Or are you saying Rapha should shift to local production?

There are a couple US made cycling companies. I'll have to dig them up.
I was responding to your comment that Rapha was a poster child for the dangers of globalism. For someone who wanted to get into the business, you could try to emulate Rapha and outsell/undercut them, or differentiate the new brand by quality, volume pricing and Made in America production. I guess I am thinking of Smartwool vs. Icebreaker vs. Ibex.

[vjp]

I'm confused why members here are blaming a British clothing company that manufactures goods in China for the decline in U.S. jobs/manufacturing and the economy.

[rugbysecondrow]

I'm confused why members here are blaming a British clothing company that manufactures goods in China for the decline in U.S. jobs/manufacturing and the economy.

It's a free shot, so they took it. :crap:

[CNY rider]

I think at root it comes down to the fact that I'm a middle-aged dude whose identity isn't very aspirational any more. I'm pretty much who I'm going to be at this point. A new jersey or bibs or even the most epic ride ever isn't going to change that. And my sense of who I am hinges on my family and my work much more than on what kind of car I drive, what kind of bike I ride, or what kind gear I wear. .

Incredibly well put and true for me as well.
I started wearing Rapha gear within the past year.
I think the image and branding is absurd.

But I tried a jersey when they were on sale.
And I really like it. I like the fabric, design, the way it fits.
So I've tried a couple of other pieces and I really like them too.
When you stick to the core cycling gear like jerseys, bibs, etc. and you buy at sale prices you get good quality stuff at reasonable prices.
So they can continue their ridiculous branding efforts all they want. I will buy or not buy the stuff based on the value they deliver.

[1centaur]

And we do not live in a global village. When jobs become too scarce, American's can't just go to China or Vietnam and get a job there. We participate in global trade only as much as we can stomach. We have incredibly strict import regulations on medical tech, weapons and vehicles. Many of those regulations are really about commerce, even if dressed in the clothes of public safety.

The US does not have free trade, and never really has. But anytime someone talks about regulating the trade deficit problem everyone acts like we're all libertarians.

The median gross income of the US is something over $30,000. The world median income is more like $5000. Does anyone actually believe that we can just average out with the rest of the world without society breaking down? Or is global trade supposed to raise the income of the other 6 billion people up to our level by selling us cheaper sportswear? The math of globalized economy does not work out, or at least not in our favor.

Americans won't even leave Flint, Michigan to find good work elsewhere, so I don't disagree with the China/Vietnam comment.

I think it's very hard for politicians not to meddle in free trade - they get immediate benefits from doing so. And a lot of this is about living for today rather than living for an uncertain outcome. But when I read stories about fears of what Chinese chips could be programmed to do in vital American goods (defense, telecom, electrical grid, the Internet), I worry that trade will become an ever more complicated question. Oh for the days of growing corn in Iowa and minks in Russia.

I honestly believe that resistance to trade wars reflects the education of the political elite, specifically Adam Smith and the effects of Smoot-Hawley. Throw in a dash of lobbying pressure and the desire of foreign leaders personally pleading with presidents to get access to American money. Libertarianism is not in that picture.

The math of global trade is indeed expected to work in our favor in the long run. Billions of Indians and Chinese with good incomes will buy American goods and services, and our labor rates will be more and more competitive with theirs. And the income inequality that is viewed so negatively in the US today is no less damaging across countries if it comes to that. But we'll be long gone by the time equilibrium of that sort is in view, if we even get past the consequences of rapid biotech development, which strikes me as unlikely.

[Wimpy]

I'm confused why members here are blaming a British clothing company that manufactures goods in China for the decline in U.S. jobs/manufacturing and the economy.

Dude,

If you insist on bringing in logic and common sense to an internet forum, you will get Banned!

Put on your stupid cap and hop in, the water is fine!

[akelman]

Dude,

If you insist on bringing in logic and common sense to an internet forum, you will get Banned!

Put on your stupid cap and hop in, the water is fine!

You really are a troll, and I very much hope that people catch on soon and stop feeding you.

[akelman]

I'm confused why members here are blaming a British clothing company that manufactures goods in China for the decline in U.S. jobs/manufacturing and the economy.

This is a fair question, but I think there's a reasonable response: the consumer dollars I spend are limited and something of a zero-sum game. If I buy something that's manufactured in China for a British company, I'm not buying something that's manufactured in the US for a US company.

[akelman]

Dude,

If you insist on bringing in logic and common sense to an internet forum, you will get Banned!

Put on your stupid cap and hop in, the water is fine!

Let me elaborate a bit on what I said above: it seems to me that every second or third comment you make is either insulting to another forum member, a criticism of the forum itself, or intended to start a fight. If I've got the numbers wrong, and you're adding value that I haven't seen, I apologize. But assuming I'm right, it seems like you don't like the forum or the people who hang out here. If that's the case, there's an easy fix, you know.

[Joachim]

You really are a troll, and I very much hope that people catch on soon and stop feeding you.

I think MtnBike/OLMO is back.....

[54ny77]

Methinks Rapha marketing directors are laughing at all of us.

Clearly, their branding has made an impact to incite such passion!

[Wimpy]

You really are a troll, and I very much hope that people catch on soon and stop feeding you.

You are like some many other people on so many other forums. You take all this way to serious.

Your time and effort spent blathering on about world economics on a cycling forum is doing the same amount of good for the world as my "trolling".

Maybe it's fun for you to pontificate on and on as if the world is listening, but the stupid cap needs to come off every now and then.

[William]

Methinks Rapha marketing directors are laughing at all of us.

Clearly, their branding has made an impact to incite such passion!

I think they want me to post the pictures of my Rapha "Epic" Silver Velo Vinyl Short Shorts for all of you. Only problem is gdw made me promise not to. :crap:


Oh well, Rapha's loss. http://www.exisle.net/mb/public/style_emoticons/default/shrug.gif






William

[Lovetoclimb]

Methinks Rapha marketing directors are laughing at all of us.

Clearly, their branding has made an impact to incite such passion!

I find their marketing to be extremely clever and well rounded. I spent 30 minutes today perusing their site and found a cross section of the following:

- Various types of commuters who have little to no Rapha product on
- A blog post about the emerging cyclocross scene in Japan!
- A video and story of great road riding around the Vancouver area, where MTB seemingly reigns supreme
- A link to a facebook marketing campaign daily giveaway
- The Festive 500 campaign urging people to put in miles over the holidays including FREE waterproof maps available at some retail partner shops.

Cycling is a global hobby and sport, and Rapha has become a global company supporting many facets of it. Nothing they have done jumps out at me as detrimental to the progression of the hobby/sport. They make expensive clothing, Assos was around long before. They manufacture SOME, NOT ALL, products in China, but how many bike parts that we ride and profess to be amazing are available thanks to outsourcing? And the sticking point for many it seems is their marketing, which for me is creative, well executed, and again only shows how fun and enjoyable riding a bike can be. It also pays homage to the history of cycling, but they are not making garments meant to replicate what people wore in decades past.

(steps off the soapbox, puts on Rapha neck gator, swings leg over top tube).

[BumbleBeeDave]

I've never identified with it because everything about the image they're putting out seems contrived, "manufactured", lacking authenticity. It seems to be more [concerned] about perpetuating that image than offering any real substance...however good the products may actually be.

Agree totally with this.

Someone else earlier in the thread used the word "phony" and that really sums it up in one word to me. I'm sure some of Rapha's products are well designed and even outstanding. Enough people here have testified to that and I respect their opinions and experience.

But Rapha's marketing and cultivation of their image as sincere and really caring about cycling and cycling causes has the air of cynical marketing manipulation to me. I have no trouble believing they have done very careful calculations and would not be supporting any of these causes if they weren't darn sure it's going to result in more profit for them in the long run than the donations they are putting into it in the short term.

When I see their ads vs. their prices vs. where they are made and my certainty of how overpriced they are, it just all reminds me of somebody who's pi**ing on my head marketing-wise, telling me it's raining--and expecting me to believe it. I'm just not quite that stupid. ;)

BBD

[happycampyer]

...Why isnt this the image on their home page: <snip>

If it's converted to b&w, it fits right in. I think the plaid coat on the woman on the far right was the inspiration for the plaid gentleman's softshell jacket. And perhaps new for 2012, a Rapha scarf, so finely woven to be semi-transparent, to be worn over the face.

P.S. I really like several Rapha pieces, but I was kinda hoping that the economic downturn would prod them to fire the guy who writes the idiotic story labels.

[54ny77]

Everything Rapha does is designed to celebrate the glory and suffering unique to road riders in areas containing over 120 micrograms of pollutants per cubic meter of air. From pain comes pleasure. Available in 2012: offering unparalleled performance for the discerning urban cyclist, Rapha is proud to introduce a line of lightweight P100 HEPA filtration masks in a stylish creme colourway. Suggested retail will be $817.36.

[Ahneida Ride]

again ...

www.foxwear.net

made in USA custom Polatec Jacket .....

120 irredeemable federal reserve shopping coupons

[Kontact]

Everything Rapha does is designed to celebrate the glory and suffering unique to road riders in areas containing over 120 micrograms of pollutants per cubic meter of air. From pain comes pleasure. Available in 2012: offering unparalleled performance for the discerning urban cyclist, Rapha is proud to introduce a line of lightweight P100 HEPA filtration masks in a stylish creme colourway. Suggested retail will be $817.36.
"Prerequisite: Rumpled Sophistication 342.

Education Credits: 120 hours (minimum).

This advanced-level course takes the wearer through the celebrated history of corps du roi (king’s body) from its illustrious days in the French court to its rugged dependability on artisan tradesmen and college professors.

We’ll explore what it means to wear corduroy in contemporary society, as seen through the lens of this jacket. We’ll find context and meaning in its easy manner and independent attitude.

Class meets at all the best places. You’ll know when you arrive.

4-Wale Cord Blazer (No. 3379), made of lustrous Italian cotton corduroy, brimming with soft, bumpy character. Notched collar. Two-button front. Flap welted pockets. Double back vent.

Price - $295"
(J. Peterman)

[Rueda Tropical]

It's just marketing to defend the brand's value added proposition. Whether their Chinese vendors are better or worse then the competitions European, Latin American or US vendors I have no idea. But companies are springing up like mushrooms that use wool or sport wool and produce understated designs (some that are original and some rip offs of Rapha) that are manufactured locally and sell for less then Rapha.

If you are charging more you have to convince buyers of the superiority of your product. Hence the proposition that their producer in China is actually a more exclusive, higher quality manufacturer then some shop in the UK or US. IS it true? Who nows the source making the claim is a bit biased. They must be feeling vulnerable to competitors on this issue though.

[Kontact]

MtBorah.com is a company that's been making cycling and other outdoor apparel in Wisconsin since 2002. Looks like they are short run, custom "team" oriented, but still supposed to be nice stuff. Apparently everything is sewn by a cadre of retired ladies.

[e-RICHIE]

But companies are springing up like mushrooms that use wool or sport wool and produce understated designs (some that are original and some rip offs of Rapha) that are manufactured locally and sell for less then Rapha.

hmm - rapha began like that, and then grew. follow the companies you refer to above and see if they wish to remain local, or if they expand to the point of wanting to find more revenue streams. and if they are making rapha rip-offs, they can thank simon and company for planting a seed and making a market for them atmo. ps my favorite winter garment, a wool and cashmere overcoat from brooks ($998 retail...), is made in china, but in the nice section. i think if i recycle, continue with the CSAs, and support local musicians, it all cancels itself out.

ps

arrange disorder

:D :D :D
:D :D :D
;) :D :D

[EricEstlund]

is made in china, but in the nice section.

I haven't (and probably won't) read through this full thread, but that's funny.

[Kontact]

i think if i recycle, continue with the CSAs, and support local musicians, it all cancels itself out.

Are you talking about economics, or Karma?

[e-RICHIE]

Are you talking about economics, or Karma?

karma is the best currency atmo.

ps

arrange disorder

:cool: :cool: :cool:
:cool: :cool: :cool:
:D :cool: :cool:

[Kontact]

I'm confused why members here are blaming a British clothing company that manufactures goods in China for the decline in U.S. jobs/manufacturing and the economy.
Because none of us care if the couple of people that are making the profits at Rapha or Specialized or Walmart are British or American. The point is that foreign production, imported and sold in the US, is damaging to American's in general. The nationality of very rich people is less of an issue.

There is generally less concern with First World production because the labor rates in England or Switzerland are generally about the same as here, so competition can and does exist.


Anyway, this really isn't about Rapha. They are just glibly emblematic of a larger problem.

[TMB]

Seems to me from reading some of the drivel in this thread, which is nothing more than a re-hashs of the tired nonsense from every thread that has mentioned Rapha in the last 12 months, that a number of you people need to move out of your comfy houses and pitch your tents in the back yard.

If you are opposed to any form of imported good ( which seems to be the underlying tone, put up the walls), then you better take a look at the sheetrock in your houses. And the nails and screws that put the sheetrock up and the studs before that. Because here's a secret, they didn't come from Pennsylvania.

But by all means, erect 100% trade tariffs and watch the world spiral out of control - quickly.

But first, rip your houses down, and pitch the tents. One the mods on this forum should be the first to do it.

[54ny77]

What's kind of funny about all of this jibber jabber (but it's good jibber jabber, as there have been some enlightening posts here) is that China, a communist country, is such an economic powerhouse practicing state-sponsored capitalism. Take away the police state, and it would be interesting to see how things might (or would) change.

Meanwhile, could you imagine unions and strikes over there, the likes of which the U.S. and Western European countries have?

It'll probably be a few generations before an empowered & increasingly educated younger generation forces more democratic change.

[William]

Seems to me from reading some of the drivel in this thread, which is nothing more than a re-hashs of the tired nonsense from every thread that has mentioned Rapha in the last 12 months, that a number of you people need to move out of your comfy houses and pitch your tents in the back yard.

If you are opposed to any form of imported good ( which seems to be the underlying tone, put up the walls), then you better take a look at the sheetrock in your houses. And the nails and screws that put the sheetrock up and the studs before that. Because here's a secret, they didn't come from Pennsylvania.

But by all means, erect 100% trade tariffs and watch the world spiral out of control - quickly.

But first, rip your houses down, and pitch the tents. One the mods on this forum should be the first to do it.


Actually my house was built over 230 years ago so it's pretty much home grown thank you very much. :rolleyes:




William

[Ahneida Ride]

I'd like to humbly request that we refrain from characterizing fellow members here as stupid, at least not on multiple occasions.

and

there is little benefit in excoriating yours truly as puerile.
The vast majority of participants here already know that.

[gdw]

"If you are opposed to any form of imported good ( which seems to be the underlying tone, put up the walls), then you better take a look at the sheetrock in your houses. And the nails and screws that put the sheetrock up and the studs before that. Because here's a secret, they didn't come from Pennsylvania.

But by all means, erect 100% trade tariffs and watch the world spiral out of control - quickly.

But first, rip your houses down, and pitch the tents. One the mods on this forum should be the first to do it."

You have it backwards. My house was built in the early 50's during the Korean War. I doubt any Chinese produced parts were used in its construction. My current tent/tarp is a different story. The fabric came from China because US companies no longer produce it... but at least it was made here. It's replacement is in the works and will be made from overstock produced in the US for the military and will by sewn locally. :banana:

[BumbleBeeDave]

I thought he meant ME! :D

I have no trouble with it being imported. I just think the marketing is phony and silly and ends up making me laugh to myself when I see somebody kitted out in Rapha. That's far different from the foreign manufacturing issue.

My house went up in 1954 and I also doubt it has much foreign content, But I'll be happy to go pitch my tent in the back yard and get a picture if it will make you happy . . . ;)

BBD

Seems to me from reading some of the drivel in this thread, which is nothing more than a re-hashs of the tired nonsense from every thread that has mentioned Rapha in the last 12 months, that a number of you people need to move out of your comfy houses and pitch your tents in the back yard.

If you are opposed to any form of imported good ( which seems to be the underlying tone, put up the walls), then you better take a look at the sheetrock in your houses. And the nails and screws that put the sheetrock up and the studs before that. Because here's a secret, they didn't come from Pennsylvania.

But by all means, erect 100% trade tariffs and watch the world spiral out of control - quickly.

But first, rip your houses down, and pitch the tents. One the mods on this forum should be the first to do it.

[Kontact]

Seems to me from reading some of the drivel in this thread, which is nothing more than a re-hashs of the tired nonsense from every thread that has mentioned Rapha in the last 12 months, that a number of you people need to move out of your comfy houses and pitch your tents in the back yard.

If you are opposed to any form of imported good ( which seems to be the underlying tone, put up the walls), then you better take a look at the sheetrock in your houses. And the nails and screws that put the sheetrock up and the studs before that. Because here's a secret, they didn't come from Pennsylvania.

But by all means, erect 100% trade tariffs and watch the world spiral out of control - quickly.

But first, rip your houses down, and pitch the tents. One the mods on this forum should be the first to do it.
What are you talking about? No one is against imported goods.

What any intelligent person should be suspicious of is a trade deficit, which just means that the amount of exports are less than the amount of imports. And a 1st grader understands that you can't spend more than you make for very long.

[BumbleBeeDave]

And a 1st grader understands that you can't spend more than you make for very long.

In this country most everybody has been spending more than we make for a long time--the government, industry, individual American consumers--and borrowing money from everybody else in the world to do it. Now the bills are coming due, the reality is just beginning to set in, and the finger pointing is in full swing.

I'd really love to go for a ride this afternoon . . it's sunny and bright outside. But only 23 degrees. Just too cold for me. Maybe I should go buy some Rapha so I will instantly harden up? . . . :rolleyes:

BBD

[William]

. . it's sunny and bright outside. But only 23 degrees. Just too cold for me. Maybe I should go buy some Rapha so I will instantly harden up? . . . :rolleyes:

BBD

Epic!!! ;) :D





William

[e-RICHIE]

I have no trouble with it being imported. I just think the marketing is phony and silly and ends up making me laugh to myself when I see somebody kitted out in Rapha. That's far different from the foreign manufacturing issue.


aren't all marketing texts and taglines a bit of verse designed to draw you in atmo?
is it that rapha's doesn't speak to you whiles others do? dave, that's why they play
the game; if we were all BBDs or e-RICHIEs it'd be a pretty low score huh.

to prepare for your epic ride -
"We were flying along suddenly when the course veered on to the Strada Bianca.
Prepared, it was time to drop the hammer..."

ps

arrange disorder

;) ;) ;)
;) ;) ;)
;) ;) :cool:

[AngryScientist]

all of these threads boil down to the same thing in my mind. Rapha sells a product, just like Rolex, Mercedes, Apple and Aunt Jemima.

i still cant understand all of the hand wringing, there are so many alternatives for bike clothes on the market, and watches, cars, computers and maple syrup - if you dont like them, dont buy them.

when things like home heating oil, or natural gas, or electricity rates go through the roof, that's a different story, those are essentials, that most people dont have much of a choice to deal with, but if a company that sells high end bike clothes bothers you, just walk away...

[EDS]

all of these threads boil down to the same thing in my mind. Rapha sells a product, just like Rolex, Mercedes, Apple and Aunt Jemima.

i still cant understand all of the hand wringing, there are so many alternatives for bike clothes on the market, and watches, cars, computers and maple syrup - if you dont like them, dont buy them.

when things like home heating oil, or natural gas, or electricity rates go through the roof, that's a different story, those are essentials, that most people dont have much of a choice to deal with, but if a company that sells high end bike clothes bothers you, just walk away...

I know I am opening a real can of worms here, but, is Aunt Jemima really maple syrup?

[AngryScientist]

I know I am opening a real can of worms here, but, is Aunt Jemima really maple syrup?

haha, i was thinking the same thing when i typed that, probably not...

[Louis]

I know I am opening a real can of worms here, but, is Aunt Jemima really maple syrup?

To say nothing of the stereotypes involved...

[67-59]

i still cant understand all of the hand wringing, there are so many alternatives for bike clothes on the market, and watches, cars, computers and maple syrup - if you dont like them, dont buy them.

when things like home heating oil, or natural gas, or electricity rates go through the roof, that's a different story, those are essentials, that most people dont have much of a choice to deal with, but if a company that sells high end bike clothes bothers you, just walk away...

Yep.

This thread reminds me of all those ripping Apple. If you don't like Macs, it's easy enough to go buy a Dell, HP or whatever. But some people like to make a sport of ripping Apple simply because they're successful. Same with Rapha. It isn't as though they can't easily go buy Icebreaker, Ibex or whatever...but it seems some people have more fun criticizing what they DON'T buy....

[rugbysecondrow]

Is Uncle Ben's really rice?

Oops, another stereotype.

[rain dogs]

I've been reading along and not surprisingly the conversation seems to take two opposing sides

A vs B, Black vs White.

What interests me is asking why is rampant outsourcing is newly problematic:

1. Opportunity:

As outsourcing centralizes in Asia, opportunities for domestic production decrease. It becomes harder and harder for small start-up to work "against" the flow, because the economics of it become harder to compete at all levels of the supply chain.

(Sure, someone MIGHT start supplying fine merino made in the USA, but it'll be twice the price of that available in China, then design costs, then labour costs. It is very difficult for me to source merino wool for my company Cima Coppi that is domestic or that doesn't come from China, that isn't literally double the price. Add labour which is already 10times the cost. We manage so far, but literally as Mills/suppliers close down around us.)

This isn't just clothing.... it's almost literally everything we buy/produce.

2. Environmental:

Not only does China has some of the most lax laws on emissions and pollution, there is also a massive carbon impact to shipping products throughout all levels of the supply chain.

Wool from New Zealand goes all the way to China to be knitted and sewn and then flies back to New Zealand in each "NZ company - IB" garment to be sold. Why?

What is the $$ cost of that environmental damage?

3. Political

As China (or other low-labour-cost country) gains "purchase-power" of all global production, they buy distribution channels (such as ports, ships, etc) and they can leverage private fees to use those services.

How many ports in Greece does Greece own? None. How many does China own? All of them. Why?

4. Intellectual

IP laws in China are also very lax. A (to remain unnamed) German knitting machine company received and order of 52 wool knitting machines from a Chinese factory. Sent one. It was copied and reproduced 51 other times and the order was not paid in full. It's now attempted to be settled in court.

The reality is that we have never in the past experienced "globalized" business as we do today and the 'laws' of economics and Adam Smith don't apply in the ways they once did. It's fine to say Italy was the China of 100 years ago, or America was 200 years ago.... but it's a different world now. It's not at all the same.

As production is monopolized, domestic opportunity itself is threatened. There won't always BE a domestic option...so support it while there is. The rate which domestic Mills close down and domestic production moves overseas far outweighs the opposite.

you can say don't buy "Rapha"... but 99% of the others play the same game. However, Rapha seems content to celebrate this and the above problems, which to me is very short term thinking.

[Louis]

Is Uncle Ben's really rice?

Oops, another stereotype.

I just had a bowl of Quaker oat meal. I also tossed in some Cream of Wheat. Plenty of imagery on those containers also.

[rugbysecondrow]

Just don't drink St Paulies Girl...That imagery is just plain offensive.

[Rueda Tropical]

ps my favorite winter garment, a wool and cashmere overcoat from brooks ($998 retail...), is made in china

China has developed to the point where one can't make blanket statements about quality or innovation. There is still plenty of garbage and things like fake pharma colored with car paint but there is also the most advanced car battery in the world, some amazing audio and other gear developed and dreamed up as well as manufactured in China.

So the race to the bottom labor is a big component of Chinese manufacture but there are also now quality outfits. Certainly the Rapha stuff I've seen looks well made. If we are seeing lots of natural fiber jerseys that don't look like a nascar billboard or a Swiss astronauts kit it's Rapha who put the marketing dollars in it to create that market. That has had to help Woolistic and others who likely are servicing a bigger market post Rapha.

[e-RICHIE]

China has developed to the point where one can't make blanket statements about quality or innovation. There is still plenty of garbage and things like fake pharma colored with car paint but there is also the most advanced car battery in the world, some amazing audio and other gear developed and dreamed up as well as manufactured in China.

So the race to the bottom labor is a big component of Chinese manufacture but there are also now quality outfits. Certainly the Rapha stuff I've seen looks well made. If we are seeing lots of natural fiber jerseys that don't look like a nascar billboard or a Swiss astronauts kit it's Rapha who put the marketing dollars in it to create that market. That has had to help Woolistic and others who likely are servicing a bigger market post Rapha.

...and one of my favorite 'cross race season garments is my House full
zipp wool sweater, made by Woolistic in china - but the nice part atmo.
have a look (http://www.flickr.com/photos/9866331@N08/3984964093/sizes/l/in/set-72157622400396701/). epic!

ps

arrange disorder

:) :) :)
:) :) :)
:cool: :) :)

[Gummee]

I wonder what's gonna happen to China as the wages and standards of living increase?

M

[gdw]

"If we are seeing lots of natural fiber jerseys that don't look like a nascar billboard or a Swiss astronauts kit it's Rapha who put the marketing dollars in it to create that market"

Turn the wayback machine to 1993 and open the Bridgestone* catalogue to pages 22-23.
http://corkgrips.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/bs93_wool.jpg
Rapha did a great job drawing their target market's, upper middleclass fashion conscience male urban roadies, attention to wool products but it has always been part of the cycling scene and was available for those who chose to seek it out. Grant Peterson did a great job promoting it and his minions, the BOBs, spread the word long before Rapha, Ibex, and others were founded.

*Bridgestone wasn't epic but recognized that the human race was made up of two sexes and color photography existed.

[rwsaunders]

Quote from Bob Sheard, the marketing guru behind Fresh Britain...

http://freshbritain.com/work

"Going back to Rapha, they are better than everyone else simply because of their customer treatment, they give more. If you scratch the surface of the way Rapha communicates to their consumer it’s not just an endorsement, it’s about really unearthing the spirit of cycling. It is about unearthing the mythologies that exist within cycling. It’s romance but not in the normal bull**** lifestyle way, it’s about uncovering different meanings within cycling that allows their consumer to engage with it. What they have achieved is very powerful."

[FlashUNC]

I'm a fan of Rapha's products for two reasons:

1) I think their jerseys and shorts are comfortable and look good. Are they any better or worse than Torm/Ibex/Road Holland et al? Its probably a wash. Their shorts are really, really comfortable for my fat butt.

But probably most important on my end:

2) Their customer service, whenever I've had a problem, has been outstanding. Whenever I email with a question, I'm usually getting a reply the same day, if not within the hour. I bought a pair of their shorts during their "buy shorts and we'll throw in shipping and some samples of our chamois cream" promotion earlier this year. Only when they shipped to me, they forgot the cream. Shot them a quick note and literally the next day I had a couple samples on my doorstep, overnighted from London, gratis.
That probably speaks to the margins they're running that they're able to do that, but that kind of service can build a lot of customer loyalty.

[Rueda Tropical]

I wonder what's gonna happen to China as the wages and standards of living increase?

M

They are already losing jobs to Vietnam. They are also looking at the Chinese interior where wages are cheaper. Plenty of potential away from the developed coastal cities.

Free Trade zones in the Dominican Republic and Central America were devastated by cheaper Chinese labor. I was talking to a former manager at a apparel producer down there. He related how stringent clients were with quality standards. Anything less then perfect was rejected. He was shocked to see the stuff they war accepting from China. I guess the margins were to big to pass up.

Same thing will happen to factories whose only attraction is being the lowest cost producers in China as labor costs rise. I understand some Indian companies are outsourcing to US programers now:0

[Rueda Tropical]

"If we are seeing lots of natural fiber jerseys that don't look like a nascar billboard or a Swiss astronauts kit it's Rapha who put the marketing dollars in it to create that market"

Turn the wayback machine to 1993 and open the Bridgestone* catalogue to pages 22-23.
http://corkgrips.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/bs93_wool.jpg
Rapha did a great job drawing their target market's, upper middleclass fashion conscience male urban roadies, attention to wool products but it has always been part of the cycling scene and was available for those who chose to seek it out. Grant Peterson did a great job promoting it and his minions, the BOBs, spread the word long before Rapha, Ibex, and others were founded.

*Bridgestone wasn't epic but recognized that the human race was made up of two sexes and color photography existed.
Kucharik has been at it for quite a while and Grant and then Jan sang the praises of natural fibers and there have been others. But without Rapha's epic marketing juggernaut it would still be very much under the radar stuff. I think it's been a case of a rising tide floats all boats with Rapha marketing and sponsorship investment and the other natural fiber apparel makers.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . The BOBS?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kgAhx0QXlnk

"If we are seeing lots of natural fiber jerseys that don't look like a nascar billboard or a Swiss astronauts kit it's Rapha who put the marketing dollars in it to create that market"

Turn the wayback machine to 1993 and open the Bridgestone* catalogue to pages 22-23.
http://corkgrips.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/bs93_wool.jpg
Rapha did a great job drawing their target market's, upper middleclass fashion conscience male urban roadies, attention to wool products but it has always been part of the cycling scene and was available for those who chose to seek it out. Grant Peterson did a great job promoting it and his minions, the BOBs, spread the word long before Rapha, Ibex, and others were founded.

*Bridgestone wasn't epic but recognized that the human race was made up of two sexes and color photography existed.

[Lovetoclimb]

I'm a fan of Rapha's products for two reasons:

1) I think their jerseys and shorts are comfortable and look good. Are they any better or worse than Torm/Ibex/Road Holland et al? Its probably a wash. Their shorts are really, really comfortable for my fat butt.

But probably most important on my end:

2) Their customer service, whenever I've had a problem, has been outstanding. Whenever I email with a question, I'm usually getting a reply the same day, if not within the hour. I bought a pair of their shorts during their "buy shorts and we'll throw in shipping and some samples of our chamois cream" promotion earlier this year. Only when they shipped to me, they forgot the cream. Shot them a quick note and literally the next day I had a couple samples on my doorstep, overnighted from London, gratis.
That probably speaks to the margins they're running that they're able to do that, but that kind of service can build a lot of customer loyalty.

And if you crash wearing any of that stuff they will repair it free of charge (shipping is your expense).

[beeatnik]

Many if not all the points/arguments presented here. Circular arguments, me thinks. Some people care about value. Some people care about fairness. Some people care about not caring (laissez faire). Some people care about choice (free will/agency). I cared about dubious marketing. Not a big issue for me at this point. Head is clear. I will offer one observation which I don't think has appeared in any Rapha thread as of now. Rapha helped me evolve as a more informed cyclist, ie, made me think about apparel options which I had never considered or thought I could benefit from. Just like (single-minded) racers/roadies who have been exposed to fixed gear culture in the last 10 years, Rapha exposed me to a wider world of cycling. It's funny how realizing that you can wear a cycling specific, yet casual jersey/jacket/shorts into a non-cycling environment and have it all become seamless (pun intended) can do that.

[tannhauser]

What's wrong with wearing your favorite plastic jersey with a wool base layer, hm?

[beeatnik]

What's wrong with wearing your favorite plastic jersey with a wool base layer, hm?

At Hank's Bar in Downtown LA, you get clowned. And old, angry drunks try to instigate.

[johnnymossville]

It's their company they can do whatever they want with it. I can choose to buy or not buy it.

[tannhauser]

At Hank's Bar in Downtown LA, you get clowned. And old, angry drunks try to instigate.


Ah, the dissolute have taste. Cheers boys.

[Ahneida Ride]

all of these threads boil down to the same thing in my mind. Rapha sells a product, just like Rolex, Mercedes, Apple and Aunt Jemima.


Ah yes !.... Rolls Royce, Steinway, Ferrari, Tiffany, HandleBra.
:hello: :rolleyes: :hello: :p ;) :D

[Ahneida Ride]

But just look at all the free publicity that Rapha is getting on this
thread and ATH. So I gotta conclude ... the blog worked.

well ... am I right ? flame away !

I gotta start a HB blog with a very controversial, statement ...

"100% pure Chinese maple syrup is superior to Vermont maple syrup"

ok ... go at it .... please start a new thread and gimme some free
publicity ....

( yea i know .... what a jerk ! ... but you know that already)
been around here to long ... so people just tolerate me.

[Ahneida Ride]

I might also add ...

The primary reason I can offer HB is the Internet.
There is only one markup.

If it went thru normal distribution channels. well ....
The price would be toooooo high or there would be little
economic incentive for the middle man .... or no profit for me.

So ... items are made off shore and thus everyone in the traditional
distribution series can get a cut.

Just another reason why manufacturing exits the USA.

[bwest]

As a marketing guy, I commend Rapha on their marketing campaign(s) and the approach they took in addressing the elephant in the room. Granted, their explanation doesn't work for everyone, but that doesn't matter. They know their audiences, have an ear to the ground and when necessary, make adjustments as needed (original China page replaced w/ new page in 48hrs).

Point is, Rapha gets it. The story is equally important as the finished product (how does the consumer 'feel' when using). And let's not kid ourselves, in the US, the majority of the bike market is leisure driven - so this experience matters.

For small scale US manufacturers (i.e. bike parts) the costs associated with building, marketing, selling and distribution make achieving a profit (just for continuing operations) a daunting challenge. The higher cost of making stuff eats into the other components of the business cycle - leaving many small US manufacturing businesses out of luck when it comes to competing on price through the normal distribution channels.

Going direct to consumer is part of small scale business 'innovation' (thank you interwebz), but us, as consumers, need to be part of their story. This isn't new. But to support our industry and our economic future, we vote with our dollars. If you vote Rapha (or other high margin import product from the land far far away that has little regard for environmental or human well being), then that's fine. But if you think otherwise (judging by some of the sentiment in this thread and others, there seems to be many that do) vote with what you buy.

[mossman]

here's a good, recent investigation into working conditions at two clothing factories in china: http://www.chinalaborwatch.org/pro/proshow-161.html

I wouldnt be surprised if the factories that make Rapha gear are not all that different...despite public relations/marketing spin.

[johnnymossville]

A 12 year old girl with 5 years experience sewing Rapha would be far better at it than me.

Rapha is on to something here.

[e-RICHIE]

A 12 year old girl with 5 years experience sewing Rapha would be far better at it than me.

Rapha is on to something here.

are you suggesting that is how their clothes are made atmo?

ps

arrange disorder

;) ;) ;)
;) ;) ;)
:cool: ;) ;)

[johnnymossville]

are you suggesting that is how their clothes are made atmo?

ps

arrange disorder

;) ;) ;)
;) ;) ;)
:cool: ;) ;)

no, just that experience matters.

[e-RICHIE]

no, just that experience matters.
so, to be clear - you are not throwing it out there that 12 year olds are making
this apparel atmo? good, because i think that would need some citation added.

ps

arrange disorder

:) :) :)
:) :) :)
:) :) :cool:

[fiamme red]

But if you think otherwise (judging by some of the sentiment in this thread and others, there seems to be many that do) vote with what you buy.I do that. I prefer to buy American-made clothing from companies like Boure, Voler, and Kucharik.

I think that Rapha should at least state the origin of each of their products, as Ibex does. If something is made in China, why not include that information on the product page?

The fact that most Rapha products are manufactured in China is nothing new to most of us. Here's a blog entry from over three years ago:

http://cozybeehive.blogspot.com/2008/06/why-rapha-is-made-in-china.html

[fiamme red]

rapha isn't a charity. they are in business to make money. if they need to preserve margin by producing in china peeps can vote by not buying their products. consumers want great products at great prices. if rapha wanted to make the same margins on UK produced product, their prices would be even more astromical.It's not that Rapha needs to charge $230 for a Sportwool™ (25% merino wool, 61% polyester, 14% elastane) jersey in order to make a profit. It's an essential part of Rapha's marketing strategy to set extravagant prices for all their products, to position themselves as a "luxury" brand.

[noel]

I like their small accessories.

[Grant McLean]

Just another reason why manufacturing exits the USA.

Well, about 6.7 billion people do live outside the USA.
Likely they don't see the problem the same way.

Free markets like competition, right?
It's interesting to hear the 1% complain that life isn't fair.

-g

[1centaur]

Well, life isn't fair, right?

[William]

Well, life isn't fair, right?

Depends on which side of the fence you're on.... :p




William

[gdw]

"Free markets like competition, right?
It's interesting to hear the 1% complain that life isn't fair."

Feel better? :rolleyes:

[SamIAm]

Fair is becoming the new four letter F word when applied to economic outcomes.

[ORMojo]

Well, I've been avoiding this thread since it started, but the little one went to sleep for her nap early today, so I thought I'd get it out of the way. Nothing to add - I really don't want to get into the international finance/economics of it, I'm retired from that field - except that I am 99% confident that Gilmour still makes all of their garden tools in the USA, including hedge clippers, and I know I still see their products carried everywhere from the local hardware store to Lowes. (Yes, Gilmour is now owned by Bosch, but at least the Gilmour line is still headquartered/made/sold in the USA.)
Last summer ... I needed a good pair of hedge clippers.
Went to 5 different stores .... Every time ... made in China .... I tried .... I would have even paid a premium to purchase an American made product. I could not locate it.
Oh . . . and you can make a difference. Maybe not change the world (although even that is remotely possible), but even a small local positive change among friends/family/community is making a difference. My personal favorite focus is teaching/modeling for your children and their future perspectives/decisions. "Think Globally, Act Locally" is a cliched bumper sticker, but perhaps part of what is happening here, either on the very local scale with individual purchasing & other decisions, or on the local scale in the sense of Cedar Cycling or Wabi Woolens.
How else are people that impact nothing in the big picture to feel better about themselves then a weekly rant as to how they would change the world were they king for the day. Give them their sport, it's meaningless.

[Louis]

I still see their products carried everywhere from the local hardware store to Lowes

Speaking of which, I thought you were boycotting those spineless bums for pulling their ads from "All American Muslim?"


Just a joke, because I think the whole Rapha thing is wearing a bit thin. (at least for me it is, others may disagree)

[gavingould]

this thing is still going?

is Rapha still the only manu being "called out" even though they've openly had some production in China for years? did the black and white photos somehow convince everyone that their stuff was sewn by little ol' Cockney ladies in London and that simply checking the tag would reveal nothing that might threaten that image?

i know everyone here has a Serotta (wink) but i hear there are a few bike makers who have frames made in China and elsewhere, even thought the company is based in the US/Italy/France/Belgium/etc. can you believe it? components too! and other clothing... crazy stuff, man.

[benitosan1972]

This thread is up to #187 and page 13... what was the over/under again & what's the record for a "discussion" thread? ;)

I personally trust Rapha, the Chinese, and black & white photography to make me look good, ride faster, and get chicks! :banana:

[wooly]

I can't believe this thing is still alive.

Rode in my rapha jacket this morning and it was warm and cozy. :p

[Joachim]

At least it wasn't locked like on some other forums. Are we that civil in winter? :)