Is it just me or have bike prices gone mental ??

[dancinkozmo]

http://www.flandriacafe.com/2011/12/will-real-one-percent-please-stand-up.html

[jr59]

good one

[spacemen3]

Amen.

[laupsi]

Great article putting things in perspective. Don't understand it myself, human behavior that is, and I'm one of them...

[fourflys]

good stuff... but if people want to drop $10k on a bike, that's fine with me... it might keep that LBS in business for another 6 months... I'll never have a $10k bike, but it doesn't mean there shouldn't be $10k bikes for those who want/can afford them...

I think the real take away from that article is the fact that a $10k bike won't make you any faster/better than a $2k bike... the machine doesn't make the man or woman...

[Bob Loblaw]

I totally agree. The difference between a $700 bike and a $3,000 bike is considerable. The difference between a $3,000 bike and a $12,000 bike is mostly imaginary.

That said, I agree with fourflys. If you have the scratch, be my guest. Bike designers/builders gotta feed their families too.

BL

[oldpotatoe]

good stuff... but if people want to drop $10k on a bike, that's fine with me... it might keep that LBS in business for another 6 months... I'll never have a $10k bike, but it doesn't mean there shouldn't be $10k bikes for those who want/can afford them...

I think the real take away from that article is the fact that a $10k bike won't make you any faster/better than a $2k bike... the machine doesn't make the man or woman...


Margin is margin. Selling a $10,000 bike still costs the bike ship probably $6000 plus labor to sell, build, serviceafterthesale. Much cheaper to sell one $10,000 bike than 4 $2500 bikes or 10 $1000 bikes or 20 $500 bikes, etc. Tho

[William]

good stuff... but if people want to drop $10k on a bike, that's fine with me... it might keep that LBS in business for another 6 months... I'll never have a $10k bike, but it doesn't mean there shouldn't be $10k bikes for those who want/can afford them...

I think the real take away from that article is the fact that a $10k bike won't make you any faster/better than a $2k bike... the machine doesn't make the man or woman...


Here here!! Heart and legs!!:beer:





William

[54ny77]

Even the dollar slice of pizza has gone by the wayside.

It's an outrage!

[LesMiner]

And so .. what is the going price of a Serotta these days?

[54ny77]

Slightly more than a slice of pizza at the local pizzeria.

But, both are made domestically by hand. :banana: :beer:

And so .. what is the going price of a Serotta these days?

[laupsi]

And so .. what is the going price of a Serotta these days?

I recently purchased a new custom Serotta, but I'll never tell, it's embarrassing!

[d_man16]

I just glad to see folks riding, if you've got a wad of cash burning a hole in your pocket go for it. There are much worse habits out there.

~D

[dsb]

When I first started you'd be hard pressed to spend more than $1500 for a complete bike that was exactly the same as the bikes on the roof of a pro team car...

I used to blame the arms race and accompanying price escalation on the tri guys... But anymore I think it's just as much if not more the affluent 'cyclists'...

In 2005 I bought my Pegoretti Marcelo, it was $1850... Now 'they' want $3400... So the price has nearly doubled for what is essentially the identical frame...

I like my Peg a lot, but when I got it I was deciding between it and a Serotta CDA. I felt like it was a dead heat between the two, If I recall, the CDA was $2200 at the time. I don't know what a CDA goes for now a days...

Now I feel like I'm sporting a tux but can't afford the underwear... I couldn't afford to replace my Peg at today's prices...

[CunegoFan]

Slightly more than a slice of pizza at the local pizzeria.

But, both are made domestically by hand. :banana: :beer:
That is what gets me. You can have a made to measure frame manufactured in the first world, customized to your desires, painted however you want it painted, and it often costs less than a stock plastic frame that may not come in more than four sizes or more than two paint schemes and the frames are made by the cheapest labor that the big bike companies can find anywhere in the world. Yet people willingly pay for the vastly overpriced stock frame. It makes no sense.

[simple]

And so .. what is the going price of a Serotta these days?


These days?? You mean these last 3-4 years I think... IIRC Serotta had at least 1 +$10k bike for 4 years. +$5k frames for longer......

[Ahneida Ride]

Even the dollar slice of pizza has gone by the wayside.

It's an outrage!

it's call frn-boarding ..

as our nation private central banking cartel and the corresponding
commercial banks create TRILLIONS of fed reserve irredeemable notes
outa thin air . (and collect interest on em too !)

WE get diluted alive.

Prices go ballistic and Joe Blow & Joe Ann Six pack get screwed.

[ultraman6970]

Wow.. well I agree a lot with the article :)

NEw bikes gives you status thats all.

[dancinkozmo]

it's call frn-boarding ..

as our nation private central banking cartel and the corresponding
commercial banks create TRILLIONS of fed reserve irredeemable notes
outa thin air . (and collect interest on em too !)

WE get diluted alive.

Prices go ballistic and Joe Blow & Joe Ann Six pack get screwed.

I believe you mean "joe six pack and joe-Ann wine box "

[54ny77]

honestly, does your commentary on this ever stop around here? trade your handlebar tape for goat skins or gold shavings at spot market, or accept something other than u.s. currency since you seem to think there's no value in it.

it's call frn-boarding ..

as our nation private central banking cartel and the corresponding
commercial banks create TRILLIONS of fed reserve irredeemable notes
outa thin air . (and collect interest on em too !)

WE get diluted alive.

Prices go ballistic and Joe Blow & Joe Ann Six pack get screwed.

[charliedid]

Totally mental.

[charliedid]

Margin is margin. Selling a $10,000 bike still costs the bike ship probably $6000 plus labor to sell, build, serviceafterthesale. Much cheaper to sell one $10,000 bike than 4 $2500 bikes or 10 $1000 bikes or 20 $500 bikes, etc. Tho

Ah well,

Good for the retailer, and screw the guy who can only afford a $5000 road bike?

Is it really just all about margin? I'd like to think otherwise.

[fourflys]

Ah well,

Good for the retailer, and screw the guy who can only afford a $5000 road bike?

Is it really just all about margin? I'd like to think otherwise.

I think you totally misunderstood OldPotatoe...

and yes, any business that wants to stay in business needs to worry about profits (margin)... how they get those profits is another story... some get profits at any cost and some, Like OldPotatoe's from what I can tell, get profits from great customer service and providing a great product...

[fourflys]

honestly, does your commentary on this ever stop around here? trade your handlebar tape for goat skins or gold shavings at spot market, or accept something other than u.s. currency since you seem to think there's no value in it.


come on now, let's keep this civil...

[Chance]

What jumped out as most interesting to me was that incomes in 2011 dollars appear to have stayed fairly flat for a long time and then suddenly they jumped by something like 20 percent.

Apparently "we" collectively have more money to spend on high-cost items. :confused:

[kohlboto]

I watched an episode of American Pickers (love that show, btw) last night. They pulled out a few bikes from a barn that were dated from the mid to late 1890s then a little pop-up fact bubble presents this info:
in the 1890s bicycles cost $75.00...the equivalent of $2000.00 today...
I'm not sure how accurate that was but it seems that the more things change, the more they stay the same.
i wonder what a bike-nerd/serotta forumite-type was like in the 1890s...what did they obsess over or pine for?

[Jaq]

I'll try not to bore anyone with details as I (rant) relate the following:

About 16 years ago, I bought a Waterford 1200.

Like a bespoke double-gun, it was designed and fitted specifically for me; its twin does not exist in this or any other universe. By Fast Eddy's sweeping generalization, it would be a "Halo Bike," though obviously not by today's technological standards.

But Fast Eddy, and anyone else who condemns the existence of such things with a simplistic appeal to nostalgia, be damned.

My Waterford never represented a means to an end, but an end in and of itself. It was not a "Halo Bike," it was (and still is), a Holy Grail. It was (and still is) everything I ever imagined a bicycle could be. The joy I derive from owning it and riding it - including the irreparable flat I had yesterday that forced my first walk-home in years and the 40 miles in the rain I did today to make up for yesterday - has only increased over the years.

In addition to Richard Schwinn's name, it sports the names of the shop that made it happen, the shop's owner, his two employees, and another fellow who had a hand in it's birth. It's also my only bike, which has allowed me to maintain it meticulously. The only component that's ever given me trouble was the original Topline crankset which, for various reasons, I replaced with another set of Toplines.

So I don't begrudge anyone a halo bike, a halo house, a halo watch-band, a halo anything as long as they buy it for the right reasons. And another person's reasons are none of my damn business. And frankly, if it weren't for all the folks willing to spend silly amounts of money and cover the costs of R&D, the bleeding edge would probably still be 6-speed hubs, down tube shifters, and toe clips.

Anyway, mini-rant off.

[Spin71]

Even the dollar slice of pizza has gone by the wayside.

It's an outrage!

Here in the West Village and other parts of NYC, you can still get a slice for a buck. Although it ain't the best slice in town.

[fuzzalow]

And the places really worth getting pizza at don't do by the slice.

[jlwdm]

Top custom frames have been expensive for a while. I ordered my Serotta Nove 4 1/2 years ago. Less than an Ottrott, but then you add harlequin paint and harlequin clear coat.

$1,000 for wheels, record post, Keo pedals, Kit carbonio flow saddle and Ritchey bar and stem -it adds up fast. But a big cost was the Record group -way more than Record 11 costs today.

Overall value - priceless. By far my 4 biggest mileage years! Never a thought of getting rid of or replacing the bike.

Jeff

[pitcrew]

Margin is margin. Selling a $10,000 bike still costs the bike ship probably $6000 plus labor to sell, build, serviceafterthesale. Much cheaper to sell one $10,000 bike than 4 $2500 bikes or 10 $1000 bikes or 20 $500 bikes, etc. Tho

Don't forget your COB (what, probably 36-37%?). Otherwise, you're going to have people thinking you're walking away with around $4K in your pocket for everyone of those $10K bike you sell. ;)

[fogrider]

I'll try not to bore anyone with details as I (rant) relate the following:

About 16 years ago, I bought a Waterford 1200.

Like a bespoke double-gun, it was designed and fitted specifically for me; its twin does not exist in this or any other universe. By Fast Eddy's sweeping generalization, it would be a "Halo Bike," though obviously not by today's technological standards.

But Fast Eddy, and anyone else who condemns the existence of such things with a simplistic appeal to nostalgia, be damned.

My Waterford never represented a means to an end, but an end in and of itself. It was not a "Halo Bike," it was (and still is), a Holy Grail. It was (and still is) everything I ever imagined a bicycle could be. The joy I derive from owning it and riding it - including the irreparable flat I had yesterday that forced my first walk-home in years and the 40 miles in the rain I did today to make up for yesterday - has only increased over the years.

In addition to Richard Schwinn's name, it sports the names of the shop that made it happen, the shop's owner, his two employees, and another fellow who had a hand in it's birth. It's also my only bike, which has allowed me to maintain it meticulously. The only component that's ever given me trouble was the original Topline crankset which, for various reasons, I replaced with another set of Toplines.

So I don't begrudge anyone a halo bike, a halo house, a halo watch-band, a halo anything as long as they buy it for the right reasons. And another person's reasons are none of my damn business. And frankly, if it weren't for all the folks willing to spend silly amounts of money and cover the costs of R&D, the bleeding edge would probably still be 6-speed hubs, down tube shifters, and toe clips.

Anyway, mini-rant off.
Nice read...but first I want to say that the tech improvements over the years have been GREAT! I remember the days of modolo brakes that really barely slowed the bike down, derailleurs that slipped gears, rear axles that bent and broke, spokes braking and crappy tires.

but a few years ago, it seemed like you could pay 300 bucks for parts that used to cost 25. just look at handlebars, stems, and pedals...the prices of all these have skyrocketted but they have also improved.

but I think there is a difference between a 10K bike that has been made in a factory with the latest tech and shipped to a showroom for anyone with the cash that might fit it versus someone going the shop/builder and ordering some a frame that is tailored their riding style and sized to fit. pretty much off the rack versus tailored suit.

[Jaq]

but I think there is a difference between a 10K bike that has been made in a factory with the latest tech and shipped to a showroom for anyone with the cash that might fit it versus someone going the shop/builder and ordering some a frame that is tailored their riding style and sized to fit. pretty much off the rack versus tailored suit.

Was stopped at an intersection the other day and some guy pulled up on a Pinarello (and obligatory matching kit), looked over at my bike and said "oh, hey. Steel frame. That's retro. How come?"

"Cuz I'd rather ride a one-of-a-kind, custom-fit, hand-built precision machine than a mass-produced, off-the-rack Clorox bottle."

Then he left me in the dust.

[benitosan1972]

^Priceless!

You'll catch up to him when his carbon frame, wheels, bars, stem, and seatpost all simultaneously explode, then who'll be mocking whom? :banana:

[WickedWheels]

This was a stupid, ridiculous article.

Sure, a more expensive bike exists, but that doesn't make bikes more expensive or an "elite" hobby. Try taking your family to Vail for a week. Or replacing a mast on a sail boat. Or joining some of the golf clubs I have in my area for a year. There's your "Halo" bike and then some. What about what "tuners" spend on their cars? The cost of shiny 22" alloys for your 1986 Caprice Classic? You can get pretty close to a "Halo" bike there too.

The unfortunate thing about this article is that the author, just like the majority of the non-cycling public, thinks of a bicycle as "just a bicycle" without looking at the labor or engineering or R&D that goes into every single component on a bike.

Think about how much more sophisticated a Dura-Ace chainring is today versus a Super Record chainring in 1976. How about the technology and R&D behind electronic shifting. The precision of an 11-speed shifter? The complexity of manufacturing a carbon clincher?

Do we need any of this stuff? No, of course not. Cannondale's $1500 CAAD10 that's 105-equipped is a better race bike than any Peugeot has ever been, and is significantly cheaper by their comparison. If someone wants to get into racing it's not cost-prohibitive to be competitive, as that same $1500 bike will handle its own against most of these "Halo" bikes. The only thing that these manufactures did was provide a super-high-end product for people that are willing to pay for it. There is nothing wrong with that. If you don't like it, then don't buy it. The nice thing is, however, that most of us that REALLY want it can still find a way to scrape together enough for a "Halo" bike, even if we don't need one, even if we have to skip one family vacation or give up golf for a year.

[cfox]

I watched an episode of American Pickers (love that show, btw) last night. They pulled out a few bikes from a barn that were dated from the mid to late 1890s then a little pop-up fact bubble presents this info:
in the 1890s bicycles cost $75.00...the equivalent of $2000.00 today...
I'm not sure how accurate that was but it seems that the more things change, the more they stay the same.
i wonder what a bike-nerd/serotta forumite-type was like in the 1890s...what did they obsess over or pine for?
the rene herse constructeur type bikes cost a fortune in their day. I forget the exact pricing in olde money, but it was well within 'halo' territory.

[laupsi]

I had written earlier that I was embarrassed at the exorbitant amount of cash spent on my latest bike. To clarify, there's a lot that went into my decision making this purchase:

I am no longer a young, roaming east coast racer looking for the latest and greatest ride to get me over the top. I have owned no less than 10 road racing bikes priced from that mid to middle high range, w/my newest Serotta Ottrott being what I would consider the high in the range of bicycles. Throughout I never owned a custom build or a bike I truly lusted over.

The money spent on my new Ottrott was not taken from the family's vacation fund. It did not detract from our children's education, the house payment or our day to day expenditures. Acutally the economy and my father's illness and his eventual death was the final impetus helping me along w/my decision.

In short, this has been a long time coming; a life long cyclist w/a passion and longing for that "perfect ride", (interpret that anyway you want). What's embarassing is that I came from a very humble family and have done okay for for myself and for my family. I cannot say specifically what means brought me here but I do hope others who may not be as fortunate have the opportunity to obtain their desires and live comfortably. For those who don't or who may never realize this reality, yes I am feeling somewhat sheepish. Guess it's human nature?

[oldpotatoe]

Don't forget your COB (what, probably 36-37%?). Otherwise, you're going to have people thinking you're walking away with around $4K in your pocket for everyone of those $10K bike you sell. ;)


Yep, right about 36%, pretty much the recognized minimum to break even each year. Yep, that means not lose any $......or make any $ at the end of the year. Net profit zero. The worse margin 'thing' in a bike shop is the bike itself.

[oldpotatoe]

Ah well,

Good for the retailer, and screw the guy who can only afford a $5000 road bike?

Is it really just all about margin? I'd like to think otherwise.

Not my point there Charlie. Too many people think shops selling $10,000 bikes go home in their new Mercedes or jet up to Aspen on the weekends flying their own G-4. Margin is margin, and the cost to sell a bike in a bike shop is a margin of about 36%. Otherwise you lose money, instead of breaking even.

Now ask how Trekspecializedgiant compensates the retailer for the labor to build the bike...yep, they DON'T.

A $5000 road bike still costs the retailer about $3000 PLUS insurance, rent, labor, utilities, phones, and a whole slew of other small $ things every month.

10 $500 bikes still cost about $300 EACH plus insurance, rent, labor, uitilities, phones, and a whole slew of other small $ things every month.

[d.vader123]

the rene herse constructeur type bikes cost a fortune in their day. I forget the exact pricing in olde money, but it was well within 'halo' territory.Read through this. It's not an original Herse, but they can probably go into the $10,000 fully built.

http://www.renehersebicycles.com/Rene%20Herse%20order%20info.htm

[saab2000]

Want to ride the world's best bikes for a my a.much lower cost? Lurk the classifieds at different forums and eBay.

Pennies on the dollar frequently for stuff used a year or three. Often barely used.

[Chance]

it's call frn-boarding ..

as our nation private central banking cartel and the corresponding
commercial banks create TRILLIONS of fed reserve irredeemable notes
outa thin air . (and collect interest on em too !)

WE get diluted alive.

Prices go ballistic and Joe Blow & Joe Ann Six pack get screwed.

___________________
Fed bails out its Banking Buddies with 16 TRILLION!
So in $10,000 Halo bike standard that works out to what, about 5 bikes for every man, woman and child in US? Roughly 1.6 billion halo bikes?

Guess mine will have to wait if my portion has to be paid off first. :(



Something will have to give. There is no way this insanity can continue much longer.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . than just bike prices. I found the charts included in the article quite illuminating. Assuming the information he presents is accurate--and I have no reason to believe it's not--then here's how prices have increased in the past 36 years . . .

-New house has gone up 43%
-New car has gone up 92%
-Gallon of gas has gone up 146%

. . . and average income has gone up only 25%.

Keep in mind this is all in adjusted 2011 dollars, so you are comparing apples to apples from 1975 till now. Obviously, incomes have not kept pace with prices of the above benchmark items.

Now the opinions . . . In the 20 years after WW2, this country rolled up general national wealth never seen before in all of history, as far as I can find. There was enough to go around for everybody (mostly) and the middle class grew huge.

In the last 40 years, and particularly in the last 20, as other countries want our standard of living they have gained the ability to make the same things we did, only cheaper, but often also better.

The disparity of the distribution of wealth in this country has been getting wider for some time. But is has also gradually been accelerating. Fewer and fewer people as a percentage of the population gaining control of more and more of the overall wealth. When you combine this trend with the bedrock principle of our capitalist society--make a buck, as big a buck as possible--you have a trend to make things as cheaply as possible and sell them for as much as possible to make that buck.

It's a competition, and sooner or later there's generally winners and losers in any competition.

So the people who control those jobs have sent them where they can be done more cheaply--overseas. There's been a dual trend of middle class wealth draining out of the country as those jobs leave and concentration of wealth in our society continuing, and continuing to accelerate. When you look at the amount of increase in prices outlined above compared to the increase in average income, it's no wonder that the middle class really is shrinking and more and more people are having problems keeping up.

It's a trend that has been going on now for many years, but until now there was so much wealth to go around that the general population could ignore it. That's ending. That blog, and the very fact this thread exists is proof that people are beginning to notice. But it's only just beginning. What's this country going to be like in 36 MORE years when incomes have only gone up another 25%, while the price of a new house has gone up another 43%, the price of a new car has gone up another 92%, and the price of a gallon of gas (or equivalent energy source) has gone up 146% more? It's gonna get ugly. Not quickly. But it's gonna happen.

Why would bicycle prices be any different? It's just another market, and the same factors are affecting that market. Fewer big companies controlling more and more of the market and they want to market their products to the people who have the most money and will pay the most money--and will give those fewer companies the biggest profit per sale.

I'm pretty darn lucky. Many of us writing here are. For me, I'm in my peak earning years and so my income has generally kept pace. I also have some other resources that compensate. But many people have NOT kept pace. Yesterday in our local paper there was a 4inch wire story about how nearly half of Americans now qualify as "poor" under the guidelines set by the census bureau. That line is $45k annually for a family of 4. Here it is in the Washington Post. You should read it and ponder that figure . . . almost HALF . . .

http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/nearly-half-of-americans-are-low-income-as-rising-expenses-unemployment-shrink-middle-class/2011/12/14/gIQANFZTuO_story.html

Bikes are just stuff, and we've got plenty of stuff for the moment. Lots of nice used bikes to go around--and houses, and cars, and furniture, and most other stuff. But in another 30 years? . . .

BBD

[William]

Combination of ...marketing, inflation, and a shift to road riding/Triathlons by a more affluent demographic starting around the rise of LA and the Tour run. It's no coincidence that you start getting bombarded with Gold and Platinum credit card junk mail when you subscribe to Bicycling or Velonews....they know their target audience.

Neither good nor bad.....just is.

Want to ride the world's best bikes for a my a.much lower cost? Lurk the classifieds at different forums and eBay. Pennies on the dollar frequently for stuff used a year or three. Often barely used.

Agree with Saab-pal completely.


Besides, we all know it's not the bike, it's the motor. :beer:





William

[Chance]

. . . than just bike prices. I found the charts included in the article quite illuminating. Assuming the information he presents is accurate--and I have no reason to believe it's not--then here's how prices have increased in the past 36 years . . .

-New house has gone up 43%
-New car has gone up 92%
-Gallon of gas has gone up 146%

. . . and average income has gone up only 25%.

Keep in mind this is all in adjusted 2011 dollars, so you are comparing apples to apples from 1975 till now. Obviously, incomes have not kept pace with prices of the above benchmark items.

Not exactly from my perspective because content is not the same (except for gasoline). New houses today are much larger than in 1975 and cars are much more complicated to improved safety, comfort, and fuel economy. It's not entirely like comparing apples to apples. Same for bikes. Duplicating a 1975 halo bike today wouldn't cost much at all.

The question that perhaps should be asked is whether our standard of living is better or not.

[William]

. . . than just bike prices. I found the charts included in the article quite illuminating. Assuming the information he presents is accurate--and I have no reason to believe it's not--then here's how prices have increased in the past 36 years . . .

-New house has gone up 43%
-New car has gone up 92%
-Gallon of gas has gone up 146%

. . . and average income has gone up only 25%.

Keep in mind this is all in adjusted 2011 dollars, so you are comparing apples to apples from 1975 till now. Obviously, incomes have not kept pace with prices of the above benchmark items.

Now the opinions . . . In the 20 years after WW2, this country rolled up general national wealth never seen before in all of history, as far as I can find. There was enough to go around for everybody (mostly) and the middle class grew huge.

In the last 40 years, and particularly in the last 20, as other countries want our standard of living they have gained the ability to make the same things we did, only cheaper, but often also better.

The disparity of the distribution of wealth in this country has been getting wider for some time. But is has also gradually been accelerating. Fewer and fewer people as a percentage of the population gaining control of more and more of the overall wealth. When you combine this trend with the bedrock principle of our capitalist society--make a buck, as big a buck as possible--you have a trend to make things as cheaply as possible and sell them for as much as possible to make that buck.

It's a competition, and sooner or later there's generally winners and losers in any competition.

So the people who control those jobs have sent them where they can be done more cheaply--overseas. There's been a dual trend of middle class wealth draining out of the country as those jobs leave and concentration of wealth in our society continuing, and continuing to accelerate. When you look at the amount of increase in prices outlined above compared to the increase in average income, it's no wonder that the middle class really is shrinking and more and more people are having problems keeping up.

It's a trend that has been going on now for many years, but until now there was so much wealth to go around that the general population could ignore it. That's ending. That blog, and the very fact this thread exists is proof that people are beginning to notice. But it's only just beginning. What's this country going to be like in 36 MORE years when incomes have only gone up another 25%, while the price of a new house has gone up another 43%, the price of a new car has gone up another 92%, and the price of a gallon of gas (or equivalent energy source) has gone up 146% more? It's gonna get ugly. Not quickly. But it's gonna happen.

Why would bicycle prices be any different? It's just another market, and the same factors are affecting that market. Fewer big companies controlling more and more of the market and they want to market their products to the people who have the most money and will pay the most money--and will give those fewer companies the biggest profit per sale.

I'm pretty darn lucky. Many of us writing here are. For me, I'm in my peak earning years and so my income has generally kept pace. I also have some other resources that compensate. But many people have NOT kept pace. Yesterday in our local paper there was a 4inch wire story about how nearly half of Americans now qualify as "poor" under the guidelines set by the census bureau. That line is $45k annually for a family of 4. Here it is in the Washington Post. You should read it and ponder that figure . . . almost HALF . . .

http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/nearly-half-of-americans-are-low-income-as-rising-expenses-unemployment-shrink-middle-class/2011/12/14/gIQANFZTuO_story.html

Bikes are just stuff, and we've got plenty of stuff for the moment. Lots of nice used bikes to go around--and houses, and cars, and furniture, and most other stuff. But in another 30 years? . . .

BBD

Interesting that in the news you hear that unemployment is down, but then you read that charitable organizations that feed the poor are saying that they have seen a massive influx of poor and homeless seeking food and shelter. Doesn't make sense if unemployment is "really" down. We've had a pretty stable run as a country due to the fact that the "wealth" was fairly widespread. Now that wealth is being concentrated in fewer individuals while more and more are barely making ends meet or are out on the street, it's only a matter of time before you have more unrest....like we've seen recently. Fairly tame but things aren't likely to stay that way if things get worse.

Besides, if everyone could afford a decent bike, we'd all be happy! :) (meaning I'm off my soapbox).





William

[BumbleBeeDave]

Interesting that in the news you here that unemployment is down, but then you read that charitable organizations that feed the poor are saying that they have seen a massive influx of poor and homeless seeking food and shelter. Doesn't make sense if unemployment is "really" down. We've had a pretty stable run as a country due to the fact that the "wealth" was fairly widespread. Now that wealth is being concentrated in fewer individuals while more and more are barely making ends meet or are out on the street, it's only a matter of time before you have more unrest....like we've seen recently. Fairly tame but things aren't likely to stay that way if things get worse.

Besides, if everyone could afford a decent bike, we'd all be happy! :) (meaning I'm off my soapbox).

William


. . . include only those who are actively looking for work but can't find it. They do not include those who have looked for work, not found it, and essentially removed themselves from the job market by giving up.

Thus the alternatively used and unofficial (at least as far as the gov't goes) "underemployment" figures, which I have seen from several sources are MUCH higher,

You just don't see those people because they are not standing on the corner selling apples . . . yet.

BBD

[crownjewelwl]

. . . include only those who are actively looking for work but can't find it. They do not include those who have looked for work, not found it, and essentially removed themselves from the job market by giving up.

Thus the alternatively used and unofficial (at least as far as the gov't goes) "underemployment" figures, which I have seen from several sources are MUCH higher,

You just don't see those people because they are not standing on the corner selling apples . . . yet.

BBD

http://www.shadowstats.com/

[charliedid]

Not my point there Charlie. Too many people think shops selling $10,000 bikes go home in their new Mercedes or jet up to Aspen on the weekends flying their own G-4. Margin is margin, and the cost to sell a bike in a bike shop is a margin of about 36%. Otherwise you lose money, instead of breaking even.

Now ask how Trekspecializedgiant compensates the retailer for the labor to build the bike...yep, they DON'T.

A $5000 road bike still costs the retailer about $3000 PLUS insurance, rent, labor, utilities, phones, and a whole slew of other small $ things every month.

10 $500 bikes still cost about $300 EACH plus insurance, rent, labor, uitilities, phones, and a whole slew of other small $ things every month.


I see what you are saying now.

Cheers

[Charles M]

I dont think prices have changed much...

You could buy a few 10,000 bikes 5 years ago. You could buy $500 bikes.

The middle ground has always been there too, but I think the equipment you get now for the money is better...


As for shops, if anything's happened, they're taking home less money net than 5-10 years ago as a group...


Local shop guys do the bullwork for everyone and are still the backbone (and arms and legs) of the cycling community. Yet once a month there's another thread started about how bad the LBS is, how dumb the sales people are, how they lack knowledge.


In general terms, people seem to think the suggested wholesale cost info available on the internet or what ever they can find "X" for on Ebay is line in the sand and once a retailer wants more for recieving, stocking, installing and servicing "X" they've become a rip off...

We shrink the dollars available to hire staff and then complain about the quality...



I know there are lots of folks that dont mind a fair price for good service and product availability, especially at a forum that's a pretty decent crowd like this place.

I just get tweaked at how ignorant some cycling "enthusiasts" are about how much their buying habits have created the market they complain about.

[Vancouverdave]

I like that there are 5-digit $ bikes. I fix them sometimes. I have friends who have made a few, others who get paid to design them. I like that the 1% will be committing what is an act of significant cultural deviance--using something that isn't a gasoline powered automobile on American roads. I really, really like that some of the people in real positions of influence in our society are becoming cyclists. $10K+ bikes, especially considering some of the fantastic value of bikes costing less than half that, are in their own way a good thing. F%$ me for sounding like a Republican, but some rising tides do lift a lot of other boats.

[oldpotatoe]

As for shops, if anything's happened, they're taking home less money net than 5-10 years ago as a group...


Local shop guys do the bullwork for everyone and are still the backbone (and arms and legs) of the cycling community. Yet once a month there's another thread started about how bad the LBS is, how dumb the sales people are, how they lack knowledge.


In general terms, people seem to think the suggested wholesale cost info available on the internet or what ever they can find "X" for on Ebay is line in the sand and once a retailer wants more for recieving, stocking, installing and servicing "X" they've become a rip off...

We shrink the dollars available to hire staff and then complain about the quality...



I know there are lots of folks that dont mind a fair price for good service and product availability, especially at a forum that's a pretty decent crowd like this place.

I just get tweaked at how ignorant some cycling "enthusiasts" are about how much their buying habits have created the market they complain about.


What he said....

-bike shop owner

[benitosan1972]

^agreed.

You can find cheaper prices on the Internet,
but the Internet doesn't offer service, a smile, the occasional cup of coffee, and sometimes, even a warranty.

A nice bike is sometimes a commitment, and you'll want some sort of relationship with a mechanic/bikeshop along the way...

[giverdada]

halo bikes for people who can afford them. for me, classified as "the working poor" in toronto, riding around on a custom steel bike that will always be beyond the full level of my skill, buying a house is a halo bike. owning a car that actually fits my kids, paying off my post-secondary education, paying off my credit card - these are all halo things. something i would be able to afford only with some kind of intangible that hasn't yet been realized. i'm not going to hate on people who can afford them.

and like vancouverdave, i think it's pretty awesome that there is somewhere else for people to dump their disposable incomes. i also understand bikes as a means to an end (you should see my commuter, my commute, and where it ends). and i certainly understand bikes as objects of awesome, of achievement, of symbolism deeper than 853 or 60HM or whatever that stuff is. i kinda got irked when i rode downtown to run errands or whatever, and there was no bike parking because it was FULL. i thought about it then, and realized: this is a good thing. bike lanes should be full of people, faster or slower than i, all clogging along in their easy gears, trying not to sweat on the way to work. it should be difficult to find bike parking because it's all been taken by masses of people on two wheels. hipsters...oh man...but they're riding BIKES! take that thing, that wonderful part, and give it to everyone. horribly anti-capitalist, but sometimes it's not a threat to give things away. especially when what we're giving is something good that makes its holders better.

(now back to giving to those who haven't a care in the world about the gift. at least it's friday, sunny, and there's no salt on the roads yet...)

nick.

[beeatnik]

http://cyclingiq.com/2011/11/11/vertical-limit-10-years-on-the-first-cracks-appear/

http://www.competitivecyclist.com/whats-new/a-whiff-of-crayfish.428.html

[fourflys]

agree with Pez and Old P above...

I did like the part about adding the third watch to the experiment(in the article)... I just finished up a marketing class where the prof had 30 yrs in marketing (why I love UoP) and he was talking about that same concept... when businesses have 3 tier pricing of something, the middle tier is the one most bought... I guess the $4-$5k bike is that middle tier now... I have no issue with a $5k bike and have had one... I have no issues with a $10k bike (haven't had one)... if there is market, more power to them...

guess I'm a glutan for punishment because I still want to open a shop when I retire from the Coast Guard... Maybe Old P will be ready to retire and I'll move to the Republic and buy his... ;)

[oldpotatoe]

agree with Pez and Old P above...

I did like the part about adding the third watch to the experiment(in the article)... I just finished up a marketing class where the prof had 30 yrs in marketing (why I love UoP) and he was talking about that same concept... when businesses have 3 tier pricing of something, the middle tier is the one most bought... I guess the $4-$5k bike is that middle tier now... I have no issue with a $5k bike and have had one... I have no issues with a $10k bike (haven't had one)... if there is market, more power to them...

guess I'm a glutan for punishment because I still want to open a shop when I retire from the Coast Guard... Maybe Old P will be ready to retire and I'll move to the Republic and buy his... ;)

Everything is for sale.

Glutton, gluten....bring yer checkbook.......

-retired USN, BTW-nice to be a 'pensioneer'.

[jr59]

agree with Pez and Old P above...



guess I'm a glutan for punishment because I still want to open a shop when I retire from the Coast Guard... Maybe Old P will be ready to retire and I'll move to the Republic and buy his... ;)

<chuckles> followed by wild laughter!

Good luck :beer:

[prometheus20]

I do think that the bike industry has sold a lot of people on the idea that they need carbon fiber to keep up with the times. If that's what you like, fine. There's no getting around the fact that if you want a 14lb bike its the material of choice- and very expensive. But for the rest of us I think its remarkable that for about a thousand bucks you can get a reliable, reasonably light bike that will last decades- even one that you can race. When you consider that bike riding does not require lift tickets or greens fees, its still an activity for the 99%.

[Charles M]

This isnt a frame material thing...

Simple thought can turn it that way, but what the bikes made of is incidental.

[pdmtong]

what is more mental is the bath people are taking on their meivicis and ottrotts...

[prometheus20]

This isnt a frame material thing...

Simple thought can turn it that way, but what the bikes made of is incidental.


Except that I don't see that many $10K steel or aluminum bikes.

[CunegoFan]

Except that I don't see that many $10K steel or aluminum bikes.
Hey, give the typical carbon frame maker some credit. The tons of work involved in searching the world for the absolute cheapest labor to outsource manufacturing to demands a premium price.

[pdmtong]

Except that I don't see that many $10K steel or aluminum bikes.

an enve SR11 clad vanilla is easily $10k

[Kirk007]

well 10k is easy with many many bikes. $5K for a set of Lightweight standard tubulars. 4K for Dura Ace Di2 build set from Competitive Cyclist and 1K left over for the frame of your choice. Now 20k, that's a bit tougher outside the carbon realm. Serotta Ottrott, Legend Ti, Baum, I'm sure a few others, but you've gotta really work to spend more than 5K on a steel frame. I agree the 20K realm is really a carbon based world.

[54ny77]

Here's the antithesis: $99.99 net price (ended up with free shipping).

http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z113/jpmz06/Bike/IMG_3902.jpg

It's a lotta fun. Can't wait till weather warms, will throw a rack on there and presto, a great commuter/errand bike.

[prometheus20]

an enve SR11 clad vanilla is easily $10k

You are speaking of the Enve Composites Company. And the Campy SR 11 is loaded with CF. Some folks can afford to enjoy these high end parts, and I say good on them. But thanks for highlighting my point that the exponential rise in bike prices is largely due to the proliferation of such carbon composite uses. Then it becomes the job of a lot of people in the bicycle business to convince as many "99 percenters" as possible to buy the high end stuff.

[prometheus20]

Hey, give the typical carbon frame maker some credit. The tons of work involved in searching the world for the absolute cheapest labor to outsource manufacturing to demands a premium price.

:hello: Ah Ha! Now we know at last the true cost of production. :beer:

[Charles M]

That's fairly narrow minded bull*****...

[rugbysecondrow]

People are willing to pay for products, some of them of good quality some not.

If somebody wants a wicked expensive Cervelo and the fit works for them...go for it. It is silly to knock them for their decision. If I want to spend my cash on a steel Bedford (or TI....) so be it. It is just as silly for the Cervelo guy to knock me for my decision.

Buy what you want, ride it, say **** you to the other guy if he wants to bust your chops about how you spend your money.
:beer:

[dsb]

OK... I'm confused...

I'm looking at the Cannondale site this am, at the EVO's in particular, and I just don't see $12,100 for the 'Ultimate'...

So, I priced out all of the pieces parts listed on the spec sheet using CC or Glory and it comes out to $6814.74...

If you subtract that from the $12,100 price for the bike, that leaves $5285.26 for the frame... To me, that's steep, but admittedly it's not R5ca territory...

But then I did the same thing for the 'Team' and the 'EVO 2 Red'...

The 'Team' ($9900) comes out to $5938.69 for the parts, leaving $3961.31 for the frame and fork...

The 'EVO 2 Red' ($5500) comes out to $3101.40 for the parts, leaving $2398.55 for the frame and fork...

I'm sure I missed some stuff in the build pricing that wasn't listed on the spec sheet, so its not exact, but I wouldn't have imagined there was this much difference between builds of what I believe to be essentially the same frame and fork...

Can this be right? Do all the bike companies do this with their complete bikes?

[bfd]

as l just posted in another thread, what's the big deal? Hasn't anybody seen the $40K Factor 001 bike that weighs 16lbs?! I'm sure there are people out there who are buying it - there must be a few 1%ers here :-(

for more:

http://www.factor001.com

Good Luck!