Merlin Extralight Info ?

[UKBROOKLYN]

Re posting this from a post I put in the Classifieds hoping someone can help..

I am in the hunt for a Merlin XL but can anyone tell me which years they had the press fit BB's and when they went to threaded.. In fact does anyone know if there is an online history DB on Merlins.. I have googled tons but can't find a definitive page...

[Kontact]

I don't think there is any Merlin information still on the web. ABG deleted all of it last year.

The XL was a late model, so it only had the pressed BB for a year or two. I think that ended in '93, but can't be sure.

Tom Kellogg of Spectrum would know, and the people at Seven might also know. Phil Wood makes spindles for those frames, so they might also have that knowledge. But really, all you have to do is ask the question before you buy - it is fairly obvious.

[LouDeeter]

I don't know the answer to your question, but while you are searching, you may wish to search for Spectrum Titanium as well as Merlin XL. The Spectrums were made by Merlin. I don't know whether all Spectrums were Extralights or not. Spectrum took the frames from Merlin, smoothed the welds and may have modified the cable routing to include through the toptube cable routing. I've owned several Spectrum Ti frames. But, the ones I owned had the pressed bottom brackets, which many people scoff at. You are limited to square hole cranksets, but I've found no other cons. Some people might think that finding replacement bottom brackets is a problem, but I didn't find that to be the case. I used both Suntour and Phil Wood bottom brackets during the time I owned the frames.

[UKBROOKLYN]

Knowing that Phil Wood has brackets.. puts ones mind at ease..

I will look into Spectrum Ti too.. Thanks..

[Kontact]

Knowing that Phil Wood has brackets.. puts ones mind at ease..

I will look into Spectrum Ti too.. Thanks..
Phill Wood has spindles. The rest of the BB is just a standard cartridge bearing set and either an internal sleave or external circlips. The tools are long gone, but many people have done it with homemade stuff.

Rob Vandemark designed the XL with Kellogg's road geometry. Vandemark started and still runs Seven, so that's another line I'd consider. Seven is back to building Spectrum's frames again.

I found an ad from 1992 that shows the pressed in BB, but that was probably the last year of those. There were lots of XLs built between 1993 and 2000 when the company was sold to ABG, so there should be a fair number to choose from. I have a '96 XL - my pride and joy.

[AngryScientist]

i'm glad you started this thread, I'm interested in more info about the Merlins of yesteryear as well. I've got an older "Odyssey" that i know little to nothing about. i know these things about my merlin

1) its my favorite bike
2) it has TK geometry, indicated by the sticker on the chainstay
3) threaded bb

i would like to know more, maybe what tubeset was used.

Merlin's rock.

[beeatnik]

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=90213&highlight=merlin+grease+guard

[UKBROOKLYN]

http://www.mtb-kataloge.de/Bikekata...in/merlin94.pdf

[AngryScientist]

bad link...

[UKBROOKLYN]

http://www.mtb-kataloge.de/Bikekataloge/PDF/Merlin/merlin94.pdf

[LouDeeter]

This is what I have in the Used Bike Buyers Guide. I stopped adding models in 1997. Not all inclusive and doesn't have any MTB info.

MERLIN: See Litespeed for current address: Previous addresses include: Merlin Metalworks, 40 Smith Place, Cambridge MA 02138 and 285 Washington Street, Somerville MA 02143. Founded by Mike Augspurger in 1986. Tom Kellogg used as designer and consultant. Also build Spectrum titanium frames, but they are finished by Spectrum. Titanium 3/2.5. Aluminum prism fork. Sold to Litespeed. Now owned by American Bicycle Group.
Models:
Road Racing 89-96 Titanium
Extra Light 92-96 Titanium
RSR 96-97 Titanium

[bobswire]

i'm glad you started this thread, I'm interested in more info about the Merlins of yesteryear as well. I've got an older "Odyssey" that i know little to nothing about. i know these things about my merlin

1) its my favorite bike
2) it has TK geometry, indicated by the sticker on the chainstay
3) threaded bb

i would like to know more, maybe what tubeset was used.

Merlin's rock.

I had an Odyssey also but sold it to buy a CDA then regretted not having a Ti bike so I then sold the CDA to buy a Seven Axiom, great bike but too large so I sold it and ended up with a Merlin EL, couldn't be happier.
I could find very little info on the Odyssey when the Merlin site was still functioning.
Great riding frame, very little if any difference in feel than the EL other than weight.
My Odyssey.
http://oi53.tinypic.com/2cfdtnt.jpg

[Kontact]

I remember reading something once about the Odyssey by I think TK. He said it was designed to ride a little different than the standard Merlin road or XL. But I can't remember if it was supposed to be stiffer or softer. It was a more basic model, but still quite expensive even by today's standards.

Any Mass. Merlin is awesome. And the later ones were pretty nice, too.


If the XL was first produced in '92, there are only going to be a handful of them out there with the press in BB.

[Cat3roadracer]

I have a 55 Extralight that I purchased new in 2001 from Colorado Cyclist when they sold Merlin frames. To this day the frame looks as new, a beautiful ride.

What is interesting is the head tube. I have an integrated headset, but the head tube is machined, not the hour glass shape that Merlin had during their integrated head tube era.

I will post a picture this evening. I would love to know more about it.

Thanks, Dave

[Kirk Pacenti]

I have a 55 Extralight that I purchased new in 2001 from Colorado Cyclist when they sold Merlin frames. To this day the frame looks as new, a beautiful ride.

What is interesting is the head tube. I have an integrated headset, but the head tube is machined, not the hour glass shape that Merlin had during their integrated head tube era.

I will post a picture this evening. I would love to know more about it.

Thanks, Dave

Thanks, that one piece CNC'd HT was my design; I am glad you like it. It is superior to the second generation design in every way. We produced that head tube for just a short period of time. It was made from stock that we had lying around the ABG factory. The HT was very well received and a big success (imo).

Unfortunately we found out to replace that material, there was an incredibly long long lead time... 8-18 months! So we ended up with the second generation design that was just awful in comparison. For the record, I fought very, very hard against the second design... so much so, it almost cost me my job. The first couple runs were plagued with issues, though they eventually worked and seemed to be pretty reliable in the end; even if it was ugly.

Cheers,

KP

[jds108]

Kirk,

Interesting to hear the insider's info, thanks. Agree on that hourglass design, it was ugly enough to keep me from buying one.

-Jeff

[Cat3roadracer]

That is most interesting. I will post pictures of the head tube tonight so the group knows what we are referring to. Any idea how many Extralights were made with this head tube?

Thanks very much for adding to this string.

Dave

[Jeff N.]

Send Tom Kellogg a PM. He knows all there is to know about Merlin. Jeff N.

[Jeff N.]

Kirk,

Interesting to hear the insider's info, thanks. Agree on that hourglass design, it was ugly enough to keep me from buying one.

-JeffIncidently, Chris King's new "Inset" headset will perfectly fit the "hourglass" design of both Merlin and Litespeed with that head tube design. Jeff N.

[Kirk Pacenti]

Incidently, Chris King's new "Inset" headset will perfectly fit the "hourglass" design of both Merlin and Litespeed with that head tube design. Jeff N.

That's not a coincidence... ;)

Cheers,

KP

[Kirk Pacenti]

Kirk,

...that hourglass design, it was ugly enough to keep me from buying one.

-Jeff

Me too!

[Kirk Pacenti]

That is most interesting. I will post pictures of the head tube tonight so the group knows what we are referring to. Any idea how many Extralights were made with this head tube?

Thanks very much for adding to this string.

Dave

Very few. I don't recall the exact number, but I'd wager it was fewer than 100 frames.

And iirc, that material was something like $90 per foot. The cost alone might have been enough to kill the design even if we could get more of it.

Cheers,

KP

[Jeff N.]

[QUOTE=Kirk Pacenti]That's not a coincidence... ;)

Cheers,

KP[/Q It occurs to me to me that Merlin/Litespeed might've possibly been slightly ahead of their time, if you think about it. Most of the dozens of carbon bikes you see
today utilize that kind of hidden internal headset arrangement. Even some customs coming from Bedford, et.al. Jeff N.

[Climb01742]

years ago i took a test ride on a merlin extralight. it was, i think, the most satisfying test ride i've ever taken. i also rode a derosa steel frame that day. i bought the derosa because in my head i wanted an italian steel frame. the derosa was fine, but the XL rode better. lesson learned: buy bikes with your butt, not your head. XLs from mass. really were something special.

[UKBROOKLYN]

So I guess I should not worry too much about the BB.. just find a nice late 90's Lightweight 54 / 55 and I am done for life.. except I can't find one.

I just let a 55 go by on the Bay worried about the BB and because I was worried about the sizing.. thinking a 54 would give me more movement.. I am an older model 54yrs 5'8.3/4 typical proportioned geometry.

Now I am wondering if that was a mistake.

[Kirk Pacenti]

...XLs from mass. really were something special.

Agreed. I've probably said it a hundred times by now, but the early 90's Merlin XL and XLM frames have had a huge influence on me.

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=100069

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=228048&postcount=36

Cheers,
KP

[avalonracing]

So I guess I should not worry too much about the BB.. just find a nice late 90's Lightweight 54 / 55 and I am done for life.. except I can't find one.

I just let a 55 go by on the Bay worried about the BB and because I was worried about the sizing.. thinking a 54 would give me more movement.. I am an older model 54yrs 5'8.3/4 typical proportioned geometry.

Now I am wondering if that was a mistake.

Take it easy. There is always another bike. Just take your time and the right one will appear.
Yes, I already have a Merlin CR but I'm also on the lookout for a 59cm TR or 2009 Extralight. Maybe I'll see it next week, maybe next year but it will be there at some point. And if it doesn't show up I'll just have to bike the bullet and have Tom Kellogg build a custom Spectrum to those specs (which you can always do if you have the dough).

[Climb01742]

Agreed. I've probably said it a hundred times by now, but the early 90's Merlin XL and XLM frames have had a huge influence on me.

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=100069

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=228048&postcount=36

Cheers,
KP

kirk, i know it's hard to define these sorts of things, but any idea what gave the XLs made in mass. their unique ride quality? i've had over ti frames over the years yet none felt as silky and lively as an XL. thanks.

[Kontact]

kirk, i know it's hard to define these sorts of things, but any idea what gave the XLs made in mass. their unique ride quality? i've had over ti frames over the years yet none felt as silky and lively as an XL. thanks.
Have you tried TN made XLs and found them different? As far as I understood, the same welding, tube design and geometry went into the ABG ones. ABG actually adopted the welding method from Merlin for the Litespeed line.

[bheight1]

Take it easy. There is always another bike. Just take your time and the right one will appear.
Yes, I already have a Merlin CR but I'm also on the lookout for a 59cm TR or 2009 Extralight. Maybe I'll see it next week, maybe next year but it will be there at some point. And if it doesn't show up I'll just have to bike the bullet and have Tom Kellogg build a custom Spectrum to those specs (which you can always do if you have the dough).

maybe Backcountry.com will go back to the future and re-issue a quality product designed by quality builder?

[Jeff N.]

I consider the '05 Extralight a great year for the brand. It was the first year for those straight, 1" chainstays and the wide, ovalized-at-the-bottom bracket seat tube, plus oversized seatstays. Awesome ride. Got one. Jeff N.

[Kirk Pacenti]

kirk, i know it's hard to define these sorts of things, but any idea what gave the XLs made in mass. their unique ride quality? i've had over ti frames over the years yet none felt as silky and lively as an XL. thanks.

I wish I could say. Unfortunately, I've never ridden a MA made Merlin... Being in my late teens / early twenties I never had the scratch for one. I only got to admire them from a distance. Part of the equation could be that in the early 90's the tubes were all a bit smaller than in the early 00's and later. Without getting into another 'planing' thread, I'll simply say that a slightly flexier frame may have been part of the magic feel.

Having ridden the Cielo (Ti Lugs, carbon tubes) for about 18 months, I can say it was far too stiff for my tastes. And on the other end of the spectrum was the Magia; so light it was difficult to hold a line on descents where you had to push hard to hit 45mph. If pedaling hard through sweeping turns, you could quite literally feel the chainstays load up and then spring back creating a pulsating feel that actually made the bike move around... very disconcerting.

Fwiw, Tom K. had told me on a couple occasions that the TN Merlin's were every bit as well made as the MA made frames. In fact he said the overall quality of the TN frames were better than MA built bikes of the time and that he was able to get things done in TN that MA never managed to achieve for him. I am paraphrasing a bit, but the sentiment is there... Maybe Tom can elaborate a bit?

As for the welding, I am 99% certain it was all single pass (regardless of what the marketing may have said) whereas I *think* the MA bikes were all double pass welds. Which imo, looked much better. Of course the Spectrum bikes were all made with double pass welds to get the smoothed out look Tom specified; awesome looking btw! ..... If you have the means, I highly recommend picking one up.

Cheers,
KP

[Climb01742]

Have you tried TN made XLs and found them different? As far as I understood, the same welding, tube design and geometry went into the ABG ones. ABG actually adopted the welding method from Merlin for the Litespeed line.

did own a TN made merlin (can't recall the model) and a litespeed ghisallo and even a barn-visited TK designed spectrum (plus a legend). XL rode the best, with TK's spectrum nearly as good. still own/ride the spectrum. all this with the caveat that all my opinions are highly subjective and prey to the haziness of memory. :beer:

[Kirk Pacenti]

...the caveat that all my opinions are highly subjective and prey to the haziness of memory...

I know the feeling well. ;)

[UKBROOKLYN]

Hi.. OP here.. I am new to the Serotta forums and am kind of amazed at how this thread took off, how much interest there is in these bikes.. also have learned quite a lot about Merlins and now have cemented my desire to own one..

Thanks to everyone who has contributed... BTW I just posted a WTB in the classifieds... ya never know...

[Kontact]

I was interested to read in Merlin's 1994 catalog that they were the first to produce "seamless double butted titanium tubing". So Serotta's butted tubing of the year before must have been seamed? I know Merlin lathe turned their butted tubes, I wonder how those first butted Serottas tubes were made?

[dnades]

are the tr works models a replacement for the extralights? Or just a similar model?

[jr59]

I wish I could say. Unfortunately, I've never ridden a MA made Merlin... Being in my late teens / early twenties I never had the scratch for one. I only got to admire them from a distance. Part of the equation could be that in the early 90's the tubes were all a bit smaller than in the early 00's and later. Without getting into another 'planing' thread, I'll simply say that a slightly flexier frame may have been part of the magic feel.

Having ridden the Cielo (Ti Lugs, carbon tubes) for about 18 months, I can say it was far too stiff for my tastes. And on the other end of the spectrum was the Magia; so light it was difficult to hold a line on descents where you had to push hard to hit 45mph. If pedaling hard through sweeping turns, you could quite literally feel the chainstays load up and then spring back creating a pulsating feel that actually made the bike move around... very disconcerting.

Fwiw, Tom K. had told me on a couple occasions that the TN Merlin's were every bit as well made as the MA made frames. In fact he said the overall quality of the TN frames were better than MA built bikes of the time and that he was able to get things done in TN that MA never managed to achieve for him. I am paraphrasing a bit, but the sentiment is there... Maybe Tom can elaborate a bit?

As for the welding, I am 99% certain it was all single pass (regardless of what the marketing may have said) whereas I *think* the MA bikes were all double pass welds. Which imo, looked much better. Of course the Spectrum bikes were all made with double pass welds to get the smoothed out look Tom specified; awesome looking btw! ..... If you have the means, I highly recommend picking one up.

Cheers,
KP

A great big thank you for your insight into this. Between what Tom has written and told me, and your insight, Merlin becomes clearer!

This place rocks!

[avalonracing]

are the tr works models a replacement for the extralights? Or just a similar model?

Merlin made a race-oriented line known as the Works series. It had oversized tubing and a new decal treatment. The CR (compact road) had a sloping TT and the TR (traditional road) had a level TT.
The TR didn't really sell well so in 2009 I think that they just renamed the TR the Extralight.

I have a CR and it is a fantastic bike.

[Ken Robb]

Do I remember correctly that Merlin recommended a 180 pound weight limit for the XL? If so I'd guess a rider 5'8 would have no problem. Mr. Nix: would you be testing that limit? :)

[bobhufford]

I'm curious about the weight limit as well. This would be for a 60cm frame. Can someone confirm?

Thanks,

Bob

[Jeff N.]

Do I remember correctly that Merlin recommended a 180 pound weight limit for the XL? If so I'd guess a rider 5'8 would have no problem. Mr. Nix: would you be testing that limit? :)
I'm 245 +/-. Maybe more from the holidays! My Extralight rides like a dream...stiff and compliant, with road feedback that's juuuust right, after many, many miles. I've felt no cowering or other undesireable aspects. The Litespeed Ghisallo, with it's ultra-thin walled tubes, is the model with the weight limit, IIRC. No such weight limits with the Merlin Extralight or even the Merlin Cyrene. Any frame with a weight limit that low (180 pounds) is usually one with extremely thin tube walls. The Ghisallo is exactly that.

[bobswire]

I'm curious about the weight limit as well. This would be for a 60cm frame. Can someone confirm?

Thanks,

Bob

Hey you wouldn't happen to be Bob Hufford from the boblist group?
If so good to see you,it's been awhile and years since I've followed them.
If not welcome anyway! :beer:

[bobhufford]

Hey you wouldn't happen to be Bob Hufford from the boblist group?
Yep ... that's me. I've been lusting for a titanium framed bike since I bought my wife a 1999 Seven Axiom last year. I'm currently on the bubble with a ~2000 Merlin Extralight and a similar vintage Holland. I still love steel, lugs and old Schwinns though.

Thanks for the welcome!

Bob

[daylate$short]

Cat3Roadracer never came back with a pic of his headtube. Is this the one in question? Definately looks much better than the hourglass shape. I picked this up used so do not know much about it. I was told it was a 2002 XLC (extralight compact? - it has a sloping top tube). Looks similar to the Agilis except for the head tube.

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp25/bruceolson/Ebay/DSC_0194-1.jpg

[Cat3roadracer]

That is very similar to my head tube. I will try to get a shot for all to see.

Dave.

[Dave Ferris]

Hi. Wanted to get some opinions on this '97 Merlin EL frame I found on CL for $850. First off-I'm not hugely knowledgeable about bikes, geometry and the tech end. I'm more a long time runner guy, just turned 60 (yikes !) that bikes maybe twice a week to take some of the stress off my aging body.

I've been riding for over 20 years both road & mountain. I have an '03 55 Litespeed Classic with Ultegra and modest Shimano wheels.. I'm 5'8" and 158. This particular Merlin is a 54 but the seller said the rider (who was his friend and recently passed away) was 5" 8" as well and it was an excellent for fit him. The seller is 5' 6" and said it's just too big for him no matter what he does with the stem otherwise he'd keep it.

The existing build is:
Campagnolo Record Cranks (L172.5)
Campagnolo Record Brakes
Campagnolo Front & Rear Derailleur (10speed)
Reynolds Carbon Fork
EMS Pro Carbon Handlebars & Deda Ti/Carbon Stem
Carbon Seat Post & Light weight Flite Ti Seat

So again not being a "bike guy" (please go easy) , I'm trying to figure the cost of building this up. Nothing elaborate but I don't want to put inferior stuff on there either..basically keeping in character with what is already on there.
So trying to find out exactly what I need. My LBS could help with advice but they are closed over the holiday tomorrow and this guy has one other very interested party. It sounds like I need to kinda jump on this quick. So I need wheelset, shifters and ?

Can I get it happening for 2K or just a tad over, including the price of the frame and already existing parts ?

Is the '97 Merlin EL a good year ? Someone earlier in this thread mentioned the *good stuff* was pre-'98. I was going to save my dough and go custom maybe next year or the year after with a Holland Exogrid. If this rides like a dream though, it probably will be plenty good enough for what I'm doing.

So basically is it worth shelling out the dough for this right now or save my money towards the custom bike ?

Will the ride be that superior (more smooth) over my '03 Litespeed Classic ? To tell the truth, I feel kinda beat up on that bike lately after just 1:45/26 miles on it. I'm not having much fun on it as of late and seem to opt for the mountain biking first.

Thanks in advance.

[Peter P.]

I'd question whether the 54cm Merlin would actually fit your 5'8" self. I'd guess it's a size too small in the top tube.

I also don't think you'll find enough difference between your Litespeed and the Merlin to justify the purchase.

If you're getting beat up on your Litespeed, try fitting larger tires and lowering the tire pressure. One of the biggest mistakes cyclists make is over-inflating their tires.

[palincss]

But, the ones I owned had the pressed bottom brackets, which many people scoff at. You are limited to square hole cranksets, but I've found no other cons. Some people might think that finding replacement bottom brackets is a problem, but I didn't find that to be the case.

I got my Ti Spectrum in 1991. My bottom bracket bearings were replaced once in 1996, when I changed the crank, and then again a year ago. The LBS had no problem whatever sourcing bearings. Thanks to the Grease Guard fittings, bearings last a very long time.

If people scoffed at them, I think it was purely as a result of FUD ("Fear, uncertainty and doubt").

[Dave Ferris]

I'd question whether the 54cm Merlin would actually fit your 5'8" self. I'd guess it's a size too small in the top tube.

I also don't think you'll find enough difference between your Litespeed and the Merlin to justify the purchase.

If you're getting beat up on your Litespeed, try fitting larger tires and lowering the tire pressure. One of the biggest mistakes cyclists make is over-inflating their tires.

Thanks Peter P.

[avalonracing]

Actually, the 54cm could be the correct size for a 5'8" guy. Everyone is a bit different but that should like the first size I would recommend sight unseen.

As for the Merlin EL being smoother than the Litespeed Classic, it may be. I had a LS Classic and I found the ride to be a bit unforgiving for a Ti bike (compared to my Merlin or Seven which are both built and set up to be racing bikes).

But I think $2K might be a little steep for that bike in today's market.

[Dave Ferris]

Thanks as well avalonracing. I think I'm going to pass on it and just make do with the Litespeed for the time being. Also will experiment with tire pressure. I'm running 120 psi..maybe knock it down to 100-110 ?

[austex]

120 sounds WAY high. I weigh 160, ride 25mm tires at 75-80 front, 85-90 rear, but when I rode 23's, I rode 90 front, 100 rear with no pinches, and our central Texas roads aren't that smooth...

See if you can fit 25's, 28's even better - my frame won't fit 28's.

[pbarry]

Yes, less pressure will help the ride measurably. 100 in the rear and 95 up front will really help things. 240+ tpi tires too, if you're not running higher end treads already.