Belt Drive - has it come along? [Archive]

William

12-12-2011, 12:04 PM

After seeing that Shuddle did the Tour Divide on his belt drive Serotta...

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=976954&postcount=7

He commented that his bike preformed flawlessly over the 2700 mile route. I did a search and read some past threads about them a couple years back. Anyone using them today? Pros/cons? Price vs durability compared to chains and cogs? Obviously you need a frame that has sliders or will open to get the belt on, but belt to chain, how do they compare?

Thanks,
William

Added pic...

http://desmond.yfrog.com/Himg618/scaled.php?tn=0&server=618&filename=pv6z.jpg&xsize=640&ysize=640

1happygirl

12-12-2011, 12:38 PM

Swweeett Wiliiam u come up with the coolest photos!!

I don't have yet, would like one though and interested in actual stories too.

Bike Friday in Eugene has been using them for some time now with much success I hear.

Great selling points with lack of messiness in transport.

ORMojo

12-12-2011, 12:41 PM

I have/had 3 belt drive bikes (current one posted here (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=89725)). To keep this brief, I'll just say that as a result of 3+ years of experience with the belt drive, on two different 29er mtbs, and a commuter, I can say without any doubt whatsoever that if I were doing the Tour Divide, I would go with Belt/Rohloff.

Way more durable, with much less maintenance, than chain/cogs. As for price - in the sort term, if you want gears with a belt, then it will probably cost you more at the outset for the IGH, but in the long run you will save not having to replace chain/cogs/rings.

Jaq

12-12-2011, 12:43 PM

I admit to knowing nothing about them, but am I right in assuming they'd use an internally-geared hub?

I've heard good things about IG hubs, though mostly from tourers.

Taking a belt-drive on a race like the Divide seems a bit riskier than it's worth, but only because I haven't a clue how one would fix a broken belt (or if the things break). Then again, carry a spare and the problem's solved.

I know there was a thread around here the other day about "Ride the Divide." Just watched it - there was a funny little moment when the leader stopped in New Mexico at that tiny little shack for supplies and hanging on the wall like a trophy: an old Skid Lid.

"Yessir. This here's a four-pointer; took it off a fat-tire fellah back in '83."

jr59

12-12-2011, 12:53 PM

Wow William,

Cool Pic!

Nice sawyer clone! :banana:

pdmtong

12-12-2011, 01:23 PM

Gates updated the belt / cogs to better maintain alignment.

I'd love to have a the comotion tandem with timing and drive belts and rohloff but for now am enjoyingmy belt trek district townie...smooth and grease free !

ORMojo

12-12-2011, 01:41 PM

I admit to knowing nothing about them, but am I right in assuming they'd use an internally-geared hub?

...

Taking a belt-drive on a race like the Divide seems a bit riskier than it's worth, but only because I haven't a clue how one would fix a broken belt (or if the things break). Then again, carry a spare and the problem's solved.

...
Yes, either SS or IGH.

I think the belt is less risky than a chain.

Gates claims testing shows a belt has more than twice the life expectancy of a chain. I've never had to replace one for breakage or wear, and the belts don't stretch, can't say any of that for chains - I've broken several chains on my mountain bikes.

As for carrying and replacing a belt . . . a 122 tooth belt weighs 82g, a typical SS chain weighs 300g+ (actually, the full belt drive system - belt, front & rear cogs - weighs less than a typical chain). Depending on the system used to open the rear triangle, tension the belt, etc., replacing a belt on the fly can be much easier and quicker than replacing a chain. On my current belt drive bike, one small allen wrench is all I would need to open the rear triangle, then I would disconnect the IGH shifter cable, drop the wheel out, slip off the belt (well . . . if it broke then you get to skip this step!), slip on a new belt, replace wheel, close up frame. About a five minute job tops, and no adjustments needed.

William

12-12-2011, 02:10 PM

Yes, either SS or IGH.

I think the belt is less risky than a chain.

Gates claims testing shows a belt has more than twice the life expectancy of a chain. I've never had to replace one for breakage or wear, and the belts don't stretch, can't say any of that for chains - I've broken several chains on my mountain bikes.

As for carrying and replacing a belt . . . a 122 tooth belt weighs 82g, a typical SS chain weighs 300g+ (actually, the full belt drive system - belt, front & rear cogs - weighs less than a typical chain). Depending on the system used to open the rear triangle, tension the belt, etc., replacing a belt on the fly can be much easier and quicker than replacing a chain. On my current belt drive bike, one small allen wrench is all I would need to open the rear triangle, then I would disconnect the IGH shifter cable, drop the wheel out, slip off the belt (well . . . if it broke then you get to skip this step!), slip on a new belt, replace wheel, close up frame. About a five minute job tops, and no adjustments needed.

That's why I'm curious, just seems like an easier set up to maintain. How do they perform when things get real nasty? Lots of mud, rain with gritty dirt etc...?

William

ORMojo

12-12-2011, 02:39 PM

Ahneida Ride

12-12-2011, 02:44 PM

I have personally experienced William's version of Belt Drive.

William asks you politely to drive him to his destination.

If you refuse ...

He belts you one ....

this is not a pleasant experience. :crap:

TimmyB

12-12-2011, 02:57 PM

I find it interesting that belt drives have only relatively recently started to gain popularity with bicycles. Their durability / etc have been long proven on motorcycles.

avalonracing

12-12-2011, 03:14 PM

I find it interesting that belt drives have only relatively recently started to gain popularity with bicycles. Their durability / etc have been long proven on motorcycles.

Yet on 99% racing motorcycles you will see a final chain drive.

forrestw

12-12-2011, 03:30 PM

Yet on 99% racing motorcycles you will see a final chain drive.

External toothed belts replaced timing chains in automobiles a long damn time ago, the reason is that they offer extremely low friction losses and lower maintenance overall and far easier to replace than a timing chain when they do wear out.

Harley started moving to belt rear drive in 1980, as well that huge rear sprocket works on a cruiser, you couldn't afford that much space on a sport / racing bike. The geared shaft rear drive used by BMW and Moto Guzzi is also nice for easier maintenance but not ideal weight/power.

Lots of race bikes have replaced an intermediate chain with a belt.

avalonracing

12-12-2011, 03:43 PM

Lots of race bikes have replaced an intermediate chain with a belt.

For final drive?
Such as??? (No, you cannot name Harleys... They are not real racing bikes)

NateM

12-12-2011, 04:00 PM

any info on how they hold up in snow and ice? Riding in storm like conditions?
A geared bike with der doesnt last long.

TimmyB

12-12-2011, 04:20 PM

My understanding was that chains were slightly more efficient in regards to power transfer, hence why most strictly performance motorcycles use them. Belt drives are more commonly found on cruisers because of less maintenance / increased durability.

Disclaimer: I am not a motorcycle expert, nor do I own any bikes with belts.

My point is that the durability of belt-drive systems are already proven. In the motorcycle industry they have been proven to last longer / require less maintenance that chain-driven systems.

Based on the number of similarities / opportunities for the technology in the bicycle world, I just find it surprising that it took this long to catch on. That's all :beer:

slowpoke

12-12-2011, 04:37 PM

My guess is that none of the Big 3 have switched because the cost to replace their manufacturing would outweigh their rewards--especially if the new system is more reliable. Though given the consensus here, whoever introduces a belt-drive system first will definitely have a one-up on the other guys.

On a less cynical note, beyond IGHs, is it possible to run a multi-geared system? Or would they need to re-think the rear derailleur & cassette?

christian

12-12-2011, 04:42 PM

I'm more inclined to overlook the extra drag on a motorcycle, where I'm not personally providing the motive force.

gasman

12-12-2011, 05:00 PM

External toothed belts replaced timing chains in automobiles a long damn time ago, the reason is that they offer extremely low friction losses and lower maintenance overall and far easier to replace than a timing chain when they do wear out.

Harley started moving to belt rear drive in 1980, as well that huge rear sprocket works on a cruiser, you couldn't afford that much space on a sport / racing bike. The geared shaft rear drive used by BMW and Moto Guzzi is also nice for easier maintenance but not ideal weight/power.

Lots of race bikes have replaced an intermediate chain with a belt.

Our '07 Honda civic has a chain timing belt but i think they went back to the toothed belts for '12
Toyota also have a couple models with a chain timing belt.

Timing chains rarely wear out and aren't that hard to replace-but I haven't replaced one in 20 years.

Lot of guys here in Eugene have gone to belt drive for their commuters.
No problems that I have heard of and some of these guys have serious miles on them.

Mark McM

12-12-2011, 05:07 PM

In the bicycle world (or, at least the performance bicycle world) more importance is placed on weight and efficiency than for motor vehicles, because bicycles have far less power to spare. While a belt drive might be lower maintenance and in many cases more reliable than a chain drive, it will also be heavier and less efficient for a multi-gear configuration.

A chain drive derailleur system might seem like an anachronistic kluge, but its overall simplicity results in transmission that has a low weight and low losses. A new, clean derailleur chain transmission system can have efficiencies of between 95 - 98% across the full range of gears - an efficiency that can't be matched by any other transmission.

Charles M

12-12-2011, 05:13 PM

The Moto thing is too far off base. The strength required for performance moto's just isnt there, but they can take people power all day long.

That's not to say that there is a net benefit for belt drive and geared hub versus chain in typical performance use, but they'll work...

johnnymossville

12-12-2011, 05:21 PM

Belts have been used on Top Fuel Drag bikes for awhile and they have 800+hp

I think they have plenty of strength.

One of the big detractors is width though. They have to be wider than chains which hurts wheel clearance and cornering clearance.

avalonracing

12-12-2011, 06:12 PM

Don't get me wrong, I dig belts on motorcycles. In fact my current bike has one and I love not having to clean or lube or adjust a chain.

FastVegan

12-12-2011, 06:49 PM

In our state champ cx race I only beat a few people, one was a spot ss belt drive with a broken belt, I can't find any pics but I saw it. No idea of miles or use, but the dude is skinny.

forrestw

12-12-2011, 06:52 PM

For final drive?
Such as??? (No, you cannot name Harleys... They are not real racing bikes)
Harleys are not even vaguely racing bikes :-)

No, I'm referring to the primary chain case -- sorry got the name wrong -- between engine and clutch, I've seen them replaced mostly on vintage bikes kitted out for racing but I've seen this on the street also ...

see http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=JA-xrfIyhPw

christian

12-12-2011, 07:36 PM

What does that have to do with the price tea in China? Every racing motorcycle since the introduction of the slant-parallelogram d�railleur has used unit cases. Discussing what works on pre-unit Trumps is like justifying tying and soldering because it was hip on Ordinaries.

Kevlar belts work fine, but let' not claim any excess superiority. Where you want to avoid grease and preventive maintenance, they're great. On a sporting rig, not so much.

William

12-12-2011, 07:54 PM

Stuff breaks. I've seen chains break in sprints... and that's a nasty thing to be part of or witness.

Just asking since there seems to be some pluses over chains & cogs if your running SS or IG.

William

Jack Brunk

12-12-2011, 08:40 PM

William

12-13-2011, 06:07 AM

I've spoken to a lot of ultra off road riders and most felt it's best to go with a transmission that can be either repaired on the trail or at a small town bike shop. I think most of the ultra riders still use chains and sprockets.

I'm sure you are correct Jack. I just like exploring all options.

Btw, I'm going to need a ride Ray....... :D

William

William

12-13-2011, 07:16 AM

Wiki history.....

"The Bridgestone Picnica belt-drive bicycle was introduced in the early 1980s. It used a tooth-belt drive like auto timing belts and Harley-Davidson drive belts, along with a novel two-part chainring that increased belt tension with increasing load. The Picnica was a folding bicycle, and part of the appeal of the belt drive was cleanliness. The Picnica was a small wheel bicycle, so belt tension may have been less than on a bicycle with standard-size wheels. It was apparently successful, but was offered mainly in Japan.

Bridgestone did offer belt drive bicycles in the USA until they left the market about 1994. Since their innovation, they have continuously offered belt drive bicycles in Japan including their best selling Albelt model.

In 1984 and 1985, Mark Sanders, a designer who had earned his degree in Mechanical Engineering from Imperial College, London, designed a folding bicycle as part of his graduate studies in an Industrial Design Engineering (IDE) program. The program was run jointly by Imperial College and the Royal College of Art in London. He collaborated with a design engineer from Gates Corporation to outfit his bicycle with a belt, rather than a chain.
Strida 3 with kevlar belt drive

When his project was complete, Sanders chose entrepreneur and former Greg Norman manager James Marshall and a Glasgow manufacturer to turn his award-winning design into a product. The manufacturer coined the name STRiDA, and in 1987 the bicycle began rolling off the production line. In 2002 production was moved to Taiwanese manufacturer Ming Cycle in order to meet increased demand, and as of 2007, Ming Cycle fully owned the STRiDA brand and intellectual property rights.

iXi bicycles, distributed in the United States by Delta Cycle Corporation, followed in 2004 with a compact design that, like STRiDA, featured a belt drive.

Possibilities for belt-driven bicycles have widened as hub gears inside the rear hub, were applied. In lieu of a derailleur, the hub gear allows riders of belt-driven bicycles to shift easily. Major internal hub makers include Shimano (Nexus), SRAM, Sturmey-Archer, Fallbrook Technologies's NuVinci and Rohloff.

In 2007, Gates Corporation developed a high-modulus synchronous belt and sprocket system called the Carbon Drive System. The belt�s pitch allowed for lower tension requirements to help prevent skipping. Lightweight, patent-pending sprockets have Mud Ports, openings under each tooth, which work to slough off debris. Early adopters who helped evaluate, revise and introduce this system included Frank Scurlock of Spot Brand Bicycles and Kalle Nicolai of Nicolai Ltd.

In 2009 an increasing number of bicycle companies, including Trek and f8 Cycles, offer belt-driven bicycles. While builders initially focused on single-speeds and internal hubs, in early 2009 f8 used a Gates-compatible fixed gear cog designed by Phil Wood & Co.[3], offering a belt-driven fixed gear bicycle."

Phil Wood Belt components...
http://www.philwood.com/products/bdrivehome.php

11 speed IGH? Very interesting.....

William

oldpotatoe

12-13-2011, 07:32 AM

I find it interesting that belt drives have only relatively recently started to gain popularity with bicycles. Their durability / etc have been long proven on motorcycles.

Only limited experience with belt drives on bicycles but the vast majority of motorcycles and all 'performance' ones, use chains. Anybody know why?

Read some posts, makes sense.

I think the real 'long pole in the tent' is the need to either be single speed or with an internally geared hub. Yep, some of those are pretty slick but the 'big boy', Rohloff, is expensive to say the least and requires some frame specifics for cable stops, etc.

Really wet climate? Fairly flat? Seems to be a great idea but for a dry-ish, hilly climate, a rear derailleur, shifter, chain seems pretty OK, in terms of simplicity and cost.

William

12-13-2011, 07:54 AM

All Belt, all the time....

http://beltbik.es/

Seems to list all mfr's coming out with Belt bikes.

Found both these English and Black Sheep 29ers on this site. :cool:

William

jamesutiopia

12-13-2011, 08:02 AM

The Gates belt drive system is nicely designed, but I suspect it will be a specialty item until one of the big OEMs buys it. Probably they have already had offers and rebuffed, so now we must wait for the patent(s) to expire before it can go mainstream. A belt-equipped travel bike would be particularly nice because the chain is heavy and dirty (maybe just wipe off the belt as part of the packing process and leave it in place).

The biggest issue with the Gates system is the straight chainline, which requires either SS (great if you're into SS) or an IGH. Common IGHs have big gaps between ratios, making them unpleasant to ride on a road bike and with wider spacing than a touring triple. A continuously variable hub would be nice (if they ever get the weight under control).

Current incarnations are quite OK for around town and MTB applications. This is clearly reflected in the bicycle models offered with the Gates system to date...

I would love to see a Gates bike with a half-step Rohloff as a winter/slush (road training) bike. The half-step would cut the 13.5% gap between the Rohloff ratios in half (6-7% is about the same as the spacing between each cog in a road cassette). A less ambitious version of the Sclumpf mountain/speed drive might provide the half step, or perhaps dual belts with two size cog drivers could be made to work (with a clutch) if the belts were narrower than the current generation.

With an IGH the weight advantage is a moot point (due to hub weight), so the only really compelling application is for SS setups (MTB, cross, urban, etc.) as this point.

Chance

12-13-2011, 08:29 AM

The biggest issue with the Gates system is the straight chainline, which requires either SS (great if you're into SS) or an IGH. Common IGHs have big gaps between ratios, making them unpleasant to ride on a road bike and with wider spacing than a touring triple. A continuously variable hub would be nice (if they ever get the weight under control).

A CVT would be nice, although like in the case of �internal geared hubs� gearing shouldn�t be limited to residing inside wheel hub. It's a common approach because it can use a relatively standard frame but the belt system has to handle too much torque to be compact in size and weight.

It'd be nice if engineers started with a clean sheet. Unlikely to happen though.

William

12-13-2011, 09:07 AM

any info on how they hold up in snow and ice? Riding in storm like conditions?
A geared bike with der doesnt last long.

Just posting since I found a relevant photo which claims the ports shed the gunk...

http://www.carbondrivesystems.com/userfiles/stays%20clean%20in%20mud.jpg

William

shuddle

12-13-2011, 02:10 PM

Taking a belt-drive on a race like the Divide seems a bit riskier than it's worth, but only because I haven't a clue how one would fix a broken belt (or if the things break). Then again, carry a spare and the problem's solved.

I carried a spare belt, the rohloff cog removal tool and a rohloff cog just to be safe. I swapped out the belt about halfway(which was over kill).

shuddle

12-13-2011, 02:13 PM

That's why I'm curious, just seems like an easier set up to maintain. How do they perform when things get real nasty? Lots of mud, rain with gritty dirt etc...?

William
My first day on the TD I went through snow and mud and it got jammed up, pretty scarry because you can't pedal. Right now I'm blaming the rear cog design. I used the Phil Wood rohloff cog which does not have cut outs to let mud slide through. I have a gates cog on a singlespeed hub which I'll test out this winter in the snow.

Dave Wages

12-13-2011, 03:54 PM

I have a friend in Duluth who's been trying out the new Gates CenterTrack belt, cogs and rings. He had some initial problems with the original (non CenterTrack) belt popping off due to snow/ice buildup, but he's had great success with the new system. FWIW, he commutes every day of the year in DULUTH, and this is his go-to winter bike for anything except super deep snow, (then he rides his Pugsley).

If you're interested, you can check a blog post about the Centertrack here; MnBicycleCommuter (http://mnbicyclecommuter.blogspot.com/2011/12/successful-test-of-gates-centertrack-in.html) If you search the blog, there's plenty more posts about setting the bike up and other impressions of the belt drive.

Cheers,
Dave

William

12-13-2011, 06:31 PM

William

12-21-2011, 11:19 AM

Belts....

On the track...
http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=P9JxLJIlPGM&vq=medium

And on the trail with a good brew...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hixkJ9pcjOw&lr=1&feature=mhum

William

witcombusa

12-21-2011, 02:07 PM

William

12-21-2011, 02:11 PM

"I find it interesting that belt drives have only relatively recently started to gain popularity with bicycles. Their durability / etc have been long proven on motorcycles."

Not motorcycles, Harleys....

Well, if they'll take the torque of a V-Twin hog, I think it's a pretty good bet they'll stand up to any cyclist on the block. :beer:

William

witcombusa

12-21-2011, 02:14 PM

Well, if they'll take the torque of a V-Twin hog, I think it's a pretty good bet they'll stand up to any cyclist on the block. :beer:

William

It's not exactly the same belt....

I've personally got no use for them in either application.

markie

12-21-2011, 02:40 PM

I am a single speeder. So belt-drives should be ideal for me. However, I never break chains. I carry a chain tool and a couple of links in case, but don't ever need them. I cannot imagine having to drag a spare belt around with me all the time in case of failure.

I just do not see the drawback in using a chain.

Mark McM

12-21-2011, 04:16 PM

Well, if they'll take the torque of a V-Twin hog, I think it's a pretty good bet they'll stand up to any cyclist on the block.

Bad comparison. Motorcycle engines are wimpy compared to human beings when it comes to torque. A the 1200 CC V-Twin engine on the Harley-Davidson VRSC V-Rod is rated at 86 ft-lb torque. A wimpy guy like me (165 lb.) can put out 92 ft-lb just from gravity force alone by standing on the pedal (170mm cranks). If I also pull up with the back foot and pull on the handlebars I can put out far more torque. A big strong guy can easily put out double the torque of the H-D V-Twin.

William

12-22-2011, 07:58 AM

Bad comparison. Motorcycle engines are wimpy compared to human beings when it comes to torque. A the 1200 CC V-Twin engine on the Harley-Davidson VRSC V-Rod is rated at 86 ft-lb torque. A wimpy guy like me (165 lb.) can put out 92 ft-lb just from gravity force alone by standing on the pedal (170mm cranks). If I also pull up with the back foot and pull on the handlebars I can put out far more torque. A big strong guy can easily put out double the torque of the H-D V-Twin.

That may be true, but the Harley has the advantage RPM's and gearing. It is better to make torque (a twist/turning force) at high rpm than at low rpm, because you can take advantage of the gearing. Put another way, let me hold the back of your bike while you try to take off. Result? You aren't going anywhere. Now, let me hold on to the back of that Harley while it tries to take off. Result? I get dragged on my face until I let go.

Point? No point really other then the belt will hold up to you and likely me so it boils down to a choice... whether you personally want to run one or not. I think they're pretty interesting and may give it a try.

William

Charles M

12-22-2011, 09:39 AM

I still think this is down to the belt drive SYSTEM...

taking the belt it's self out of context (or tossing it worlds out of context by still talking Moto) is narrow...

William

12-22-2011, 09:46 AM

I still think this is down to the belt drive SYSTEM...

taking the belt it's self out of context (or tossing it worlds out of context by still talking Moto) is narrow...

Agree. Just trying to get it back to the bike (hence my last non-point). :beer:

William

SupremeOverload

12-22-2011, 10:41 AM

Mark McM

12-22-2011, 12:08 PM

That may be true, but the Harley has the advantage RPM's and gearing. It is better to make torque (a twist/turning force) at high rpm than at low rpm, because you can take advantage of the gearing. Put another way, let me hold the back of your bike while you try to take off. Result? You aren't going anywhere. Now, let me hold on to the back of that Harley while it tries to take off. Result? I get dragged on my face until I let go.

Internal combustion engines need a drivetrain with a large gear reduction in order to produce enough torque. If my bicycle was geared down as much as a motorcycle, I'd put so much torque to the rear wheel that in a tug of war I'd easily outpull the motorcycle (assuming adequate traction).

The point is, a bicycle 'engine' has vastly different speed & torque characteristics than an internal combustion engine, so the best drivetrain system for one is not necessarily the best drivetrain system for the other. Chains happen to be good at low speed/high torque applications, so they are well matched to a bicycle.

Mark McM

12-22-2011, 12:18 PM

Not sure but I suspect you are confusing "engine" torque and "drive chain" torque.

Not really. Internal combustion engines have relative low torque (compared to muscle powered systems), but more than make up for it by producing much high rpms. Power is the product of torque multiplied by speed, so the internal combustion engine has more total power. But in order to get adequate torque to the rear wheel, they must be geared down. If you compare a bicycle to a motorcycle, you'll see that on a bicycle, the rear drive sprocket is much smaller than the front drive sprocket (geared up). On a motorcycle, the rear sprocket is much larger than the front sprocket (geared down). There may be more total power being transmitted by the motorcycle drivetrain, but that is primarily because the chain is traveling faster. A bicycle has a relatively slow moving chain, but it often transmits more force (torque) than a motorcycle.

Because of the highly specialized nature of the bicycle 'engine' compared to most other vehicle engines (high torque, low speed), it should be no surprise that a bicycle works best with a very different drivetrain than most other vehicles.

SupremeOverload

12-22-2011, 01:16 PM

Not really. Internal combustion engines have relative low torque (compared to muscle powered systems), but more than make up for it by producing much high rpms. Power is the product of torque multiplied by speed, so the internal combustion engine has more total power. But in order to get adequate torque to the rear wheel, they must be geared down. If you compare a bicycle to a motorcycle, you'll see that on a bicycle, the rear drive sprocket is much smaller than the front drive sprocket (geared up). On a motorcycle, the rear sprocket is much larger than the front sprocket (geared down). There may be more total power being transmitted by the motorcycle drivetrain, but that is primarily because the chain is traveling faster. A bicycle has a relatively slow moving chain, but it often transmits more force (torque) than a motorcycle.

Because of the highly specialized nature of the bicycle 'engine' compared to most other vehicle engines (high torque, low speed), it should be no surprise that a bicycle works best with a very different drivetrain than most other vehicles.

The stress on the drive belt on a motor cycle are much higher than the stress on a drive belt of a human powered bike. That is what the conversation is about.

William

12-30-2011, 03:00 PM

Here's an article by Lenard Zinn about a Belt Drive 29er courtesy of Forum Friend firerescuefin-pal. :cool:

http://singletrack.competitor.com/2011/12/bikes-tech/goodbye-to-my-belt-drive-rohloff-bike_27883

William

Pete Serotta

12-30-2011, 06:29 PM

William

12-31-2011, 07:36 AM

I do not know of any bikes currently offered for sale in the industry that have belt drive. Harley does it so it is possible but then we get into who wants one and why and is the market quantifiable to do something like that.

Shimano CAMPY, and SRAM I have heard nothing about future plans here in US. For commuter bikes in EUROPE it might have some interest :confused:

Guten Morgen Pete!! :beer:

Actually if you click on the link back in post #32 you will see quite a few mfr's offering bikes with belt drive. Even Trek and Specialized are offering them in a few models now. Mainly commuters, SS, and mtb but there are some road bikes with IGH's.

As you can tell I like the concept, especially for SS and mtb's. I'm also interested in the IGH's but at the price (Rolhoff etc...) the good ones are running right now it's not something I feel comfortable jumping into without trying it out first.

William

MapleWelder

12-31-2011, 03:01 PM

I've put a belt drive through some mud multiple times, but not serious caked-on, can't see the frame any more, mud. That said, it performed without a hitch.

I have put the system through a lot of rain/water/grit (think eastern Oregon volcanic soil). Also without a hitch, or even a hint of a concern.

The way the cog & sprocket are designed, they shed the stuff better than a chain, and are much less susceptible to wear from the elements - just think about it, all of those moving chain link/pin connections are gone.

My next belt drive will use the new CenterTrack system, which is supposed to improve on performance against the elements. Although, again, I haven't had any difficulty in that respect yet, I can see where the new system should be even better and I would certainly go with CenterTrack for the Tour Divide.

A quieter system is my main motivation here: I'm considering a rain/slush bike with belt for use in cape cod area's plethora of SANDY death traps, which cause no end of gritty-grinding noise in the wet. I feel like I'm riding an orbital sander :( (breaking chains at all of 135 lbs seems kinda silly too). After reading this thread and others I still haven't found much about the noise of both Gates versions (center track or previous with holes) in wet muddy/sandy conditions. Is it about the same amount of grinding noise as a chain in the wet&gritty, or appreciably quieter??

naisan

12-31-2011, 10:14 PM

So the belt drive is quieter - it doesn't matter what junk I get in mine (a gates centertrack on a sugino crankset and alfine 11 hub a Spot Acme). When compared to say a SRAM it's quieter.

But then again, I can't hear my single-speed chain either, no matter what I get in it. Put another way: if I can hear my chain, I oil it until i can't hear it.

I've read the "quiet" question and for the life of me I although I ride a belt drive daily, and a bunch of chain drives daily, I can't tell much difference, as there's always some kind of noise. If you can't hear the chain, you will hear the saddle. If you can't hear the saddle, you will hear the cleats. If you can't hear any of that, you will hear the wind in your ears.

But belt drive is very much here: I don't have to worry about getting oil on my, my gear, or my bags when I ride that bike. The belt is much stiffer and doesn't stretch nearly as much as a chain. They also don't break like chains do (I seem to have no problem breaking 10-spd chains from a standing start, so much so that I always ease off of a track stand these days on my road bike).

On the other hand, you can't derail them, so single or internal shifting hub is required for shifting duties. You have to be careful not to bend them, and you can't open and close the belts , so your frame has to open somehow large enough to let the belt slip through - usually with some kind of metal insert on the seatstay or some kind of removable dropout or insert in the rear triangle (now there's an S&S coupler that I saw for the first time on Baron's frames in Seattle for this reason). The Belt drive tension is also really key - I use an android / iphone guitar tuner app and pluck the belt to get it to 50-60hz. This also means an adjustable drop-out or eccentric BB Cam or? to get the tension micro-adjustable.

So if belts for everyday mean that one has to have an internal shifting hub like a Rohloff or Alfine, then there are other questions as well. For one, are these hubs less efficient than a chain? System-wise are they heavier? I haven't found conclusive answers, but the claim that under more power internal shifting hubs become less efficient seems to ring true for me: while the belt-driven singlespeeds I've ridden feel immediate and responsive, the ones with the internal shifting hubs seem to feel rubbery in most gears, which reduces the subjective feeling of direct power transfer.

The other thing: the alfine hubs (and the other ones as well) weigh around 1.5kg usually. Some argue that a belt-drive/internal shifting hub is lighter than a chain/derailleur, and that when you add and subtract all the parts, that the belt drive ends up lighter (I am too lazy to do the math, but I think it's close, but the belt drive is heavier when you think about say SRAM red or force). All of this means that it's really easy to do wheelies as there is a lot of weight at the back of the bike.

Cheers

But for me, when I'm commuting, no chain oil, no maint: it works. I'm not running out to sell my cervelo road bike anyday soon.

William

11-19-2012, 07:39 AM

Raleigh has their XXIX SS 29er belt entry for 2013...

http://mikesbikes.com/images/library/zoom/raleigh_xxix_13_z.jpg

A nice Strong belt drive...

http://beltbik.es/sites/default/files/imagecache/image_600_600/bike/images/2010-strong-frames-custom-blend-titanium-belt-drive-29er-strong-frames_0.jpeg

Lynskey Road

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_cpfFA8V-iHI/R6wxyar2_kI/AAAAAAAAAIs/DyveFkwgeXc/s1600/belt_drive_road.jpg

English Belt (notice anything about this bike?)

https://16incheswestofpeoria.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/project-right.jpg

William

William

11-19-2012, 07:42 AM

https://16incheswestofpeoria.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/project-right-no-split-frame-necessary-to-accomodate-the-outboard-belt-drive.jpg

William

William

11-19-2012, 07:42 AM

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_ejwj642Qbxg/S-2bQtohXiI/AAAAAAAAA50/DYWBMgWSEgs/s1600/argon-road-gates-trackbike-6,5kg.jpg

William

William

11-19-2012, 07:43 AM

http://www.10degreeslatitude.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/spot_brand_belt_drive_bike_crank.jpg

William

William

11-19-2012, 07:48 AM

Spot Brand

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3227/2897005917_6d17582faf.jpg

Lynskey

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2409/2250039106_40ae9c3062.jpg

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4077/4916291889_8eed0f596e.jpg

William

William

11-14-2013, 09:08 AM

I know someone locally running the Center Trac Gates Belt drive on a SS Mtb and is really enjoying it. It's been awhile since this thread was up so I figured it was time to check and see if there are any more folks that have tried it out? What are your thoughts? Has it come along?:)

William

donevwil

11-14-2013, 11:34 AM

Local builder has built a few Centertrack bikes recently. He races CX on a single speed and built my wife an Alfine 11 disk commuter. He really likes his CX and has shared that the centertrack is a huge improvement over the earlier design. Belt line and tension are absolutely critical and I'm convinced many don't give them the attention they require. I bought four 110mm BBs to set-up my wifes commuter and get the belt line perfect and the crank centered. Each had a taper just different enough to throw it off �1/2 mm. My wife loves her commuter, silent and straightforward. Builder used Paragon Rocker dropouts so removing and replacing the wheel with appropriate belt tension is simple, no re-tensioning required after initial set-up.

Ahneida Ride

11-14-2013, 11:48 AM

Sure it may be superior ..

But is it romantic ?

It's like the crack of a wood baseball bat vs. the ping of an Aluminum one.

jet sanchez

11-14-2013, 12:17 PM

Does Trek still make the District carbon? That was a sexy bike, I would buy a used one any day of the week.

gdw

11-14-2013, 12:22 PM

"Builder used Paragon Rocker dropouts so removing and replacing the wheel with appropriate belt tension is simple, no re-tensioning required after initial set-up. "

Using the right dropouts is really important with belt drive. The two adventure racers I know who used it went back to chains after a season because of the problems they had aligning and tensioning the belt after repairing flats.

donevwil

11-14-2013, 12:55 PM

Using the right dropouts is really important with belt drive. The two adventure racers I know who used it went back to chains after a season because of the problems they had aligning and tensioning the belt after repairing flats.

What dropouts did they use, rockers ? In my application the rockers stay fixed after initial set-up/tension/alignment. When changing a flat they're no more than vertical dropouts with a generous lead-in to guide the axle. No futzing with either alignment or tension.

William

11-14-2013, 02:11 PM

Does Trek still make the District carbon? That was a sexy bike, I would buy a used one any day of the week.

Those were nice looking rides. There is a list here of the different mfrs offering belt drive. I don't know how "complete" the list is though...

http://beltbik.es/bikes

William

William

11-26-2015, 12:29 PM

Any one made the jump yet?

http://nakedbicycles.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/gates_mud_small-800x600.jpg

William

dzxc

11-26-2015, 03:02 PM

Once they figure out how to disconnect and reconnect belts, there will certainly be a belt bike revolution.

pdmtong

11-26-2015, 03:55 PM

Does Trek still make the District carbon? That was a sexy bike, I would buy a used one any day of the week.

I almost bought a district carbon last week but decided it was just too much money for a corner case bike. I have a district belt for town use already. Love the idea of a a pretty rare gates machine but even though $1400 was far cry from retail felt that was still a lot of money for a very specialized albeit cool bike that would only be suitable for a fairly narrow ride envelope around here. That thing shockingly for what it is wasn't light either. It was high 15s. Trek spilt the rear dropout and created an eccentric axle. Very cool but likely a complete pita if you flat in the field

martl

11-27-2015, 02:13 AM

i was always interested in belt drive technology. But i see even companies that build belt-driven bikes don'T recommend them for riding in dirt or snow. The belt also is kind of sensitive towards maltreatment of the belts flanks, which could easily happen when the bike is parked in a public bikerack.
Also, like a chain, a belt is something that may fail. If a chain fails, i can remove a link with a simple tool and carry on riding. With a beltdrive, i would need a replacement of exactly the correct length which would be unavailable on a trip.

Nags&Ducs

11-27-2015, 05:06 AM

What about BD for road bikes? Will it ever make it in the pro peloton?

Wakatel_Luum

11-27-2015, 05:20 AM

Also, like a chain, a belt is something that may fail. If a chain fails, i can remove a link with a simple tool and carry on riding. With a beltdrive, i would need a replacement of exactly the correct length which would be unavailable on a trip.

I considered getting my touring bike modified for belt drive with a splitter brazed in but cost has held me back...

A belt drive apparently lasts 4 X times that of a chain, I'd just carry a spare in my frame bag...

MaraudingWalrus

01-01-2016, 09:33 PM

What about BD for road bikes? Will it ever make it in the pro peloton?

I have a singlespeed belt drive Supersix Evo (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=170583), which I absolutely love. I'm certainly an advocate of belt drive.

Pelican

01-01-2016, 10:28 PM

I've got three belt-drive bikes in the garage and working on a fourth. Gates guys were super nice and sent us the new CDN system to prototype our next bike with. Highly recommend them if you've got the right setup (single gear, split chainstay, proper belt-line, good tension).

marciero

01-02-2016, 05:53 AM

So if belts for everyday mean that one has to have an internal shifting hub like a Rohloff or Alfine, then there are other questions as well. For one, are these hubs less efficient than a chain?

My understanding is that the inefficiency of IGH transmission comes from hub inefficiencies rather than the belt. With chain, the chain directly turns the wheel via a single cog. With IGH the belt directly turns an internal gear via the single cog, with power then being exchanged through one or more sets of meshed internal gears. Inefficiencies due to friction occur with each transmission of power. I think certain gears are more "direct" than others.