softening aluminum ride with carbon parts

[thendenjeck]

i've been told in the past two days by two different, completely unrelated folks that riding carbon wheels and/or a carbon post will soften the harshness of an aluminum frame. true, in your experience?

[oldguy00]

Nope. BS.
Carbon post is still rigid, won't make a difference.
Carbon wheels will give your bike a different feel if they are lighter, but how jarring a ride they provide is dependent on your tires and tire pressure.

[Steve in SLO]

I have heard the same thing but believe lowering your tire pressures by 5 psi will do more than any carbon bits.

[Jawn P]

I have heard the same thing but believe lowering your tire pressures by 5 psi will do more than any carbon bits.

Yep, wider tires with a hair less PSI will do much more than any carbon at a hair of the price.

[Hawker]

Not sure about carbon wheels...but I would assume they would make some difference. A carbon fork..definitely. Carbon seatpost, mine never made any difference except a little bit of weight.

[thendenjeck]

good to know my instinct on this was correct. as has also been confirmed a few times this week.

[ultraman6970]

The main problem IMO are the wheels, all low spoke count wheels are not soft, the rim needs to be super stiff. On the other side if you have somebody to borrow you a set of wheels in 32 or 36 spokes laced to campagnolo or mavic tubular rims like the GP4, then you will notice that the ride gets softer.

Second option, move to tubulars, the ride is different than with clinchers, or look for softer clincher tires.

[happycampyer]

I have never been able to tell the difference in terms of stiffness among seatposts made of carbon, aluminum or titanium. Maybe on a mtb with a lot of exposed post, but not on a road bike.

Regarding wheels, just as with aluminum wheels, some carbon wheels have a more forgiving ride than others. In my experience, tire width, pressure, quality (suppleness) and type (tubular vs. tubeless vs. clincher) have a greater effect on ride quality than wheel material.

Of all the carbon wheels I've owned or ridden, the most comfortable-riding are the Hyperons, and the new Enve Smart 3.4's are very close. I haven't tried the new, wider 303's, but I would imagine that they have a pretty comfortable ride.

If you are mainly looking for comfort, either a nice set of hand-built, box-rim tubulars with wider tires (e.g., the 25mm Vittoria Corsa EVO CX's, etc.) or road tubeless are pretty hard to beat.

[Jack Brunk]

Carbon wheels have made a huge difference for me. Carbon rims, tubulars and 90-95 psi made a world of difference. I loved the combo of carbon wheels and alum, scandium etc.

[thendenjeck]

If you are mainly looking for comfort, either a nice set of hand-built, box-rim tubulars with wider tires (e.g., the 25mm Vittoria Corsa EVO CX's, etc.) or road tubeless are pretty hard to beat.


i'm not mainly looking for comfort, i'm building a race bike up over the next few months, and am trying to decide on a frame. caad seems like a great deal and the geo fits me well, and it is certainly light, stiff, and fast, but the ride quality feels super harsh compared to carbon. I'm mainly looking for a great race bike that fits, flies like a rocket, and that I enjoy riding. :) i just have this theory that if i enjoy the ride more, i'm more likely to train harder? maybe i'm nuts. on the other hand, if i want to save money and win races (or at least not lose terribly), i do have a 29er commuter, so maybe i'll save that for the cushy rides and go with the aluminum and save some dinero. I just know that when i got on the caad10, i was very impressed with the responsiveness, quickness, stiffness in sprints, but when i got on a TCR and an EVO, I was impressed with the same things, but also like the ride feel better.

[benitosan1972]

In my experience:

-carbon wheels don't soften the ride, they actually make it harsher cuz they are stiffer, the only exception are Spinergy PBO's cuz the carbon spokes actually dampen road vibration. But since they will make you faster, then ride will be over faster, thus less fatigue, good theory? ;)

-can't feel the difference with a carbon post vs alloy either
-same goes with carbon stems... and carbon bars, haha, but it's ok, at least it lightens/blings the bike out for spectators! ;)

-best way to soften the ride IMO = 700x25 tires, lower PSI, wider C2-type wheels, get a softer saddle, don't ride so heavy on your bike (seriously!), wider bars, longer stem, setback post... getting stretched out over the bike will alleviate fatigue, as well as relaxing/stretching/shifting positions mid-ride.

[1centaur]

The bottom line is that if somebody is telling you that a CAAD 10 will ride like a carbon bike if you use a carbon post and/or carbon wheels then that person does not know what he's talking about. CF frames ride differently, and sound different, which has a psychological effect as well. That said, CF wheels can change ride quality - the material does transmit vibrations differently, but I don't think the change = a CF frame.

[thendenjeck]

i dont think anyone was saying that. i was just curious about ways I could soften the ride up a bit, as the carbon is more than i should spend right now.

[oliver1850]

Older CAAD frames will fit 28s, I'm running some on one now. Train on the softer 28s, race on something narrower. Also if you're seriously considering one, I have a nice 56 cm CAAD5 with full carbon fork. You're welcome to try it out with 28s if you want.

[thendenjeck]

very seriously. i'm looking at a 2009 caad9 team. trying that ride out would be cool :beer:

[PJN]

Wheels and tires will be the biggest help. I'm a believer that carbon posts help too.

Caad5's aren't in the same ball park at the 9's. My ladies winter ride is a 5. It's nasty.

[sevencyclist]

I personally feel there is a difference in the carbon parts such as post, bar etc. I got an Easton carbon handlebar that smoothed out my ride more than the Oval Concept aluminum or Deda 215 aluminum bars.

You will get change in the ride quality by varying the tire pressure and tire size. However, if hold those things exactly the same, you will feel a difference with the carbon bits in how the vibration is transmitted to you.

Whether you want to spend the money to change the parts to get what you are trying to achieve, or just lowering the pressure or getting a slightly larger tire, that is totally up to you. Different ways to achieve a certain goal. Just like some here would ride a road bike for D2R2, while some would ride a cycloross, and some would get out their 650B randonneur bikes. Whatever makes you happy. For me, the pursuit to get that "perfect" bike is part of the fun.

[thendenjeck]

I totally agree.

[oldpotatoe]

i've been told in the past two days by two different, completely unrelated folks that riding carbon wheels and/or a carbon post will soften the harshness of an aluminum frame. true, in your experience?

Both not true. Carbon rims are some of the stiffest there is. A short section of carbon seatpost won't make any difference either. If it was truly flexing ala 'suspension', it would break. Same for carbon handlebars, they are just lighter, not a comfort item.

I haven't read below, I'm sure it will be mentioned, but larger tires with less air will make the biggest difference.

[T.J.]

very seriously. i'm looking at a 2009 caad9 team. trying that ride out would be cool :beer:


I raced a caad9 for a season and a supersix. Really couldn't tell that much diff at all.

Ps: imho there is no need to check out the caad5, not even close to being the same bike.

[zap]

I have an al race bike and I think it's a pretty nice ride-certainly superior to my cervelo riding buddies.

I've fiddled with al and carbon posts and never noticed a difference in terms of ride.

Now tubulars do improve the ride compared to clinchers.

I ride carbon tubulars and the biggest difference I notice is the ride between Conti Comps and Tufo S3. Contis are smooth, the Tufo's ride like hard plastic but tell you what, those Tufo's can't be killed-made to ride on dirt roads.

[Chance]

i dont think anyone was saying that. i was just curious about ways I could soften the ride up a bit, as the carbon is more than i should spend right now.
You could try a suspension seat post during training and replace with stiff one for races.

Carbon may make a slight difference with compact frames and or when lots of seat post is showing. Seat post when long bend slightly, and also carbon can compress more than alloy. Minimal differences at best though.

[Chance]

Caad5's aren't in the same ball park at the 9's. My ladies winter ride is a 5. It's nasty.
How many ladies do you have? ;)

[rwsaunders]

very seriously. i'm looking at a 2009 caad9 team. trying that ride out would be cool :beer:

While out of town this Summer, I rented a CAAD9 for two weekend rides...60/80 miles. The roads were a bit rough and I was worried that the ride would be comparable to older CDale boneshakers that I had previously owned.

I was pleasantly surprised by the ride quality and the bike had entry level wheels and components...no carbon. Try the tire width/pressure trick like others have suggested. It works.

[Muttleyone]

I soften an aluminum ride by riding a steel bike. ;)

Mutt

[Chance]

Funny, because steel as a material is stiffer than aluminum.

Not to start another material war but there must be more than material stiffness to this "ride" issue.

[witcombusa]

My alu bike is not harsh riding so........

[flydhest]

have you ridden a caad9 or 10? You may want to know how much "softening" you actually need. They are pretty great race bikes. I would also ask ergott his opinion of his Spooky if you are looking for a race bike and don't want to blow a lot of dough. Lastly, I guess I'd say that what sort of racing you are doing would matter a lot to any advice I would give you (which would be worth roughly twice what you paid for it). I like a stiffer wheel for crits and am less picky about that sort of thing in road races. Crits, with the turn, sprint, brake, turn, sprint, brake, turn, sprint, brake, turn, sprint . . . make me worry a bit less for "comfort" other than good fit.

[djg]

Carbon wheels might very well feel different, but the notion that they'd smooth out the ride seems entirely dubious.

There are so many variables in wheel design and build that even pretending to isolate rim material seems like a stretch. Deep section carbon rims are not going to budge much at all -- should be pretty stiff top to bottom (along any axis describing the diameter of the circle) and pretty stable side to side, not that you want any wheel to come out of round very much as a shock absorber. A (relatively) small number of high-tension spokes might be relatively good at transmitting certain HF vibrations, although for all I know certain hi-tech woven spoke-like substitutes might make a difference.

Tires and pressure are likely to make a much bigger difference.

No tests or proofs to offer, but I've had more than a handful of ad hoc experiences. I've got two sets of Reynolds wheels at home (46T and 30-ish), as well as TT wheels (HED 60/90) and an older set of Zipp 303s, that I really should pass along to someone who will use them more. At different times, I've owned a couple other sets -- a 50 mm deep set from another mfg and one of the shallow section Reynolds wheelsets. These were all good wheels, at least for some rider and purpose, but were not bought to "soften" a ride and didn't seem to do it in any way I could identify.

I wouldn't think post would matter much -- maybe a really long (exposed section) post with very thin walls, but is that a good thing?

[soupless]

I had a CAAD 8 and then a CAAD 9, and rode on the same roads the OP will be training upon. 25mm tires at 90-95 made a huge difference, and don't tell anyone, but I used double-gel bartape to help too.

[1centaur]

"No tests or proofs to offer, but I've had more than a handful of ad hoc experiences."

How many ad hoc experiences does it take to create statistical significance? In my ad hoc experience, this is a difficult question to answer, with the bias being fewer rather than more. See a crowded mall in one place and you hear about national shopping trends matching up on that day (random weekend). Happens again and again. My son likes to criticize ad hoc examples, but the longer you live the more you see the value in them.

[yashcha]

I ride a Canyon Ultimate AL, which TOUR magazine rated as one of the stiffest frames out right now. The bike came with a Canyon VCLS seatpost, which I was going to sell because I had a nice Thomson Masterpiece 0 setback, which is almost 100 grams lighter and is bulletproof. Before selling it, I did a back to back test to see if I could tell the difference on a 40 mile ride between the two seatposts.

I was really surprised to find out how much of a difference the Canyon seatpost made in smoothening the rear end. The post is very flexy, and has a lot of give, while as you know, the Thomson is incredibly stiff. I almost feel like the seatpost was one of the nicest pieces of equipment that I have bought in a long time. I ride on really crappy Northern Irish roads so comfort goes a long way.

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f331/yashcha/IMG_3.jpg

[oliver1850]

The idea behind offering the CAAD 5 was to test the effect of 28s. I would think if he finds that he can live with the ride of the CAAD 5 with 28s, the CAAD 9 will be even better.

[Hindmost]

Several years ago I was sceptical of "new" carbon parts. But then I started with a carbon post on a hard tail mountain bike. Humm, interesting. Then a carbon fork on a steel road bike. Again, interesting. I was most suprised when I tried carbon cranks, then carbon rims, bars. Each carbon part had a dampning effect making the ride a little more smooth. The road feedback comes through with the little sharp bits filtered out. Whether carbon parts affect performance, I couldn't say but the perception is that of a more comfortable ride. When I ride the old steel frame and fork with aluminum parts I am reminded of how the ride used to feel.

[Germany_chris]

I don't find aluminum all that harsh particularly CAAD. I also don't think any carbon bits are going to "Dampen" anything. Your saddle and tires will make your bike more comfortable.

[djg]

"No tests or proofs to offer, but I've had more than a handful of ad hoc experiences."

How many ad hoc experiences does it take to create statistical significance? In my ad hoc experience, this is a difficult question to answer, with the bias being fewer rather than more. See a crowded mall in one place and you hear about national shopping trends matching up on that day (random weekend). Happens again and again. My son likes to criticize ad hoc examples, but the longer you live the more you see the value in them.

What follows is likely of no interest to most (y'all have thus been warned) , but it is an attempt to answer this latest question, so here goes:

I dunno. The plural of anecdote is not data. I cannot look back on 5 or 500 of my own experiences and declare them to be systematically collected data after the fact. So maybe we stop short of asking about statistical significance in the first place? Although I might well be able to work from a data set gathered by somebody else or, in certain ways, look for "natural experiments."

So why did I post at all? Because subjective reports may be worthwhile for all sorts of purposes, especially in some area where objective reports, and even objective methods, may be seriously lacking. Heck, most useful human discourse is non-technical. Subjective product reviews . . . well, I read restaurant reviews from reviewers I trust (or, in a pinch, from the only reviewers available), knowing full well that they've only been to a place one or two or three times, ordered certain things, evaluated them in a certain mood, whatever, and even -- or maybe partly because -- there's no sense looking for objective measures for anything more than teeny little corners of what's relevant to what I'm looking for in a dinner. In fact, I might be annoyed if, in response to a request for a restaurant review, somebody offered carefully measured temperature readings from three points on the top surface of a piece of grilled fish, 30 seconds after it was brought to the table, along with the mass of the accompanying asparagus. So folks ask for subjective reviews from, say, a bike board, and that makes sense to me, provided folks don't make more of the reports than they are. Which they might. Or others ask about the asparagus measurements, which don't much interest me, but also are fine, in many contexts, for those who want to take them, or read them.

I'm not sure what age has to do with it, but I'm 51 and, just to recap, I don't know.

[happycampyer]

djg, funny you should use the restaurant critic as an example. Earlier today I read 1centaur's thought-provoking question, "How many ad hoc experiences does it take to create statistical significance?" and thought about the difference between Zagat restaurant ratings and reviews by restaurant critics. Zagat ratings are an accumulation of ad hoc experiences which, once accumulated, take on statistical significance. In a similar fashion, the cumulative ad hoc experiences of people who frequent this place take on a certain statistical significance.

To the OP, if you build up a set of alu tubulars, or get a nice set of road tubeless like the Shimano C24's, or a wide-rimmed clincher like the Hed's, and then put nice tires on them, you will get a set of wheels that will ride nicely (smoothly), will be race-worthy, can be ridden confidently in windy and wet conditions, etc. That can't be said about a lot of carbon wheels (other than that they should be race-worthy...). If you are curious, you should be able to demo a set of Enve 1.45s (or better yet, Smart 3.4s) and/or the Zipp 303 Firecrests. You may prefer them to aluminum wheels, but I suspect that it would mainly be for reasons other than comfort (e.g., quick spin-up, aero quality, lateral stiffness, etc.).

[thendenjeck]

really interesting, how does a fellow go about demo-ing wheels?


and to whoever said I should try a suspension post...no no no. I'm not in my 60's, it's not that I can't handle bumps in the road, it's just a preference. and I'll be damned if I'll be caught riding a race bike with a suspension post. I just prefer the slightly smoother road feel of carbon. that's all.

[happycampyer]

Both Enve and Zipp have demo wheels that you can get through dealers, and I would imagine that some shops in the city have demo sets available (at least that's the case in the 'burbs).