flat back--guidance please

[atl001]

Greetings all! I've been reading this wonderful forum and getting much more educated about cycling for about a year now. (I was a recreational cyclist in my 20s, and kids/work filled my 30s.) It's amazing how much information is so readily accessible online these days! In my earlier years, my cycling knowledge consisted of what was provided by Bicycling magazing and Greg Lemond's Complete Book of Bicycling.

After reading what I could, one subject still confuses me--back posture. It seems that the general internet community consensus is that riding with a flat back is desirable. But how flat does that mean? I see pictures of riders online described as having a "flat back", but they're all still curved. Is perfectly flat, from pelvis to shoulders, the ideal? Should one be contracting their lower back muscles to flatten their lower back and rotate their pelvis forward, or does it just happen with flexibility? When I try to get flat, a sore lower back quickly results. Am I doing it wrong? Many thanks

[AngryScientist]

well, you do realize that a flat back is desirable only for aerodynamic efficiency correct?

second, to get really aero on the bike, you need to have the bike set-up pretty aggressively, low bars, high saddle.

it doesnt come naturally either, getting more comfortable on the bike, and building the flexibility to get low takes time and discipline.

for your typical recreational rider, it really doesnt mean much...

check out fabian on his TT bike, which is made for this kind of thing:

http://www.bicycle.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/cancellara_tdf_stage19_2010.jpg

[fuzzalow]

Back posture is a by-product of developing a balanced, efficient position on the bike. Means that a rider knows how to sit correctly on the bike and is balanced on the pelvis with a closed hip angle suitable for that rider.

I'm no expert and am just parroting what I've learned from one who is: Steve Hogg makes a lot of sense on this IMO. You can read some of his writing on this subject on his blog.
http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com/blog/2011/05/seat-set-back-for-road-bikes/

Cancellara can hit that same TT position on a road bike too, he extends his arms out in front of him while resting his forearms on the handlebar tops. Many pros can do this. Pretty good sign of excellent position & balance on a bike with not much weight thrown onto the arms and the bulk of power & drive emanating from the hip.

[ultraman6970]

IMO flat back is the combination of 3 factors... rider style, fitting and rider physiology.

Why, well usually riders that have been racing since kids tend to have flat backs all their life, they are more flexibles when young so posture over the bike gets pretty much set since they are kids by imitating older guys (many times u can tell who thought a young rider because of the way and style they ride the bike). In old guys is too hard to acchieve specially if they started cycling or figuring out positions and have been dragging ugliness riding style for the last 20 years. In those cases is almost impossible to even try to change position and riding style.

Some guys ride with their backs curved, thats how they ride and thats how it will be, the physiology has something to do with this. Everybody loves EM here but his riding style wasnt one of the more beautifull around. Many take lemond as pattern but lemond was actually racing since juniors so is hard for an old guy to even think in lemond positions.

Reginal Harris, one of the best track english sprinters, his position is said being pure perfection in its balance and style but his back was curved like cancellara for example.

Another example of high performance, Sean Kelly. Sean Kelly was the king of the 1 day races and classics back in the day but if you see his position was weird if you compare it with modern racing positions.

Moser had curved back also and he had the 1 hour world record for a while.

So pretty much u cant pretend do something when other stuff is in the middle like your own riding style and physiology,.

Good luck.

[Charles M]

Guys,


A flat back is incidental. It's such a Red Herring it's almost purple.





A "flat back" isnt aero in and of it's self.

A flat back is also more about individual physiology as it is about fit as well.

Forcing it will as much harm to one guy as it might benefit the next in performance terms.



You have flat guys that are monsters like Dave Z and Fabian C, you have mantis friendly shapes like Levi, you have rounded guys like Lance.


Performance is about a compromise of shape and the ability to produce power and process O2... And how you get there from one guy to the next is VERY different.


A safer, but still incomplete/ wrong generalization is lower frontal area that still allows power production for X period of time (which changes with the type of race you're doing...).



Put simply,

The next time somone tries to dictate your fit for road or TT based on how flat your back is, leave and go find another fitter...

[firerescuefin]

Guys,


A flat back is incidental. It's such a Red Herring it's almost purple.





A "flat back" isnt aero in and of it's self.

A flat back is also more about individual physiology as it is about fit as well.

Forcing it will as much harm to one guy as it might benefit the next in performance terms.



You have flat guys that are monsters like Dave Z and Fabian C, you have mantis friendly shapes like Levi, you have rounded guys like Lance.


Performance is about a compromise of shape and the ability to produce power and process O2... And how you get there from one guy to the next is VERY different.


A safer, but still incomplete/ wrong generalization is lower frontal area that still allows power production for X period of time (which changes with the type of race you're doing...).



Put simply,

The next time somone tries to dictate your fit for road or TT based on how flat your back is, leave and go find another fitter...

^ This...word for word

[lhuerta]

+1

[tannhauser]

A safer, but still incomplete/ wrong generalization is lower frontal area that still allows power production for X period of time (which changes with the type of race you're doing...).



Good post, but why is this overly general?

[Charles M]

sometimes you can have a net more effective total aero shape that has a larger frontal area... depending on loads of factors but primarily down to torso, arm and femur length, flexibility and the ability to then put it on something that meets UCI Bike set up regs (bar, saddle, hand positions)


part of the reason Levi can mantis but it was an abortion for Basso and Fabian C was down to the relative angle of arms AND torso. And those things would simply not net out to a more aero position based on their arm and torso length when applied to a still UCI legal bike...




Very frankly, virtually all suggested solutions for a better performing aero body position are no better than generalizations simply because of how different body types are...


I'm not saying that some of the plainly obvious generalizations are not correct. But when you start to apply them too much to the wrong body type, you usually get a larger penalty in sustainable power than the benefit of the position.


Even for guys with extremely similar body measurments, the most effective net position can vary a lot...

[atl001]

Thanks for all the responses. I think I get it. A few follow-up questions, to complete my understanding:

The pic of Cancellara above--it looks to me like his lower back is still curved quite a bit to meet the angle of his pelvis. Is this a prototypical "flat back"? It looks like the guy in the Steve Hogg blog with the "long effective torso" has a much flatter back and rotated pelvis

http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/LONG-EFFECTIVE-TORSO.png

--flatter than I've ever seen. Do some people really ride like this?

And is aero efficiency (if any) really the only benefit of a flat back? I thought there was something about being able to more effectively utilize the glutes, with the back flat and pelvis rotated forward. I am just a recreational rider, but every bit helps when trying to keep up with the fast guys on the weekend bike shop rides. Thanks again

[fuzzalow]

The pic of Cancellara above--it looks to me like his lower back is still curved quite a bit to meet the angle of his pelvis. Is this a prototypical "flat back"? It looks like the guy in the Steve Hogg blog with the "long effective torso" has a much flatter back and rotated pelvis

http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/LONG-EFFECTIVE-TORSO.png

--flatter than I've ever seen. Do some people really ride like this?

And is aero efficiency (if any) really the only benefit of a flat back? I thought there was something about being able to more effectively utilize the glutes, with the back flat and pelvis rotated forward. I am just a recreational rider, but every bit helps when trying to keep up with the fast guys on the weekend bike shop rides. Thanks again

As I mentioned in my earlier reply: The back posture is a by-product of any riders position. The goal is not to achieve some self-image of a flat back but rather to develop a position that is efficient, comfortable and powerful. Don't let the tail wag the dog.

The photo of Spartacus and the 3 example photos in the Hogg blog: All those back positions are incidental to the each rider finding their own best way to power a racing bike. Unique because they each developed their position within the confines of their own physiology.

Flat back for aero efficiency? IMO at this stage of where you seem to be, don't worry about it. Tail wagging the dog. The goal is comfort, power and balance. The goal is not aero tweaks looking for that additional 1/2%.

Develop your position with these 3 basic goals: A closed hip angle which allows you to use your gluts. Using the pelvis as the pivot point leaning forward on the saddle which allows you to unconstrain your diaphragm because you don't solely bend at the waist. Finding balance means your arms are largely unweighted which results in not fighting against yourself to hold the weight your own torso up and instead uses that weight as one of the stability & drive elements of the stroke. Your own version of the flat back falls out of doing all this.

Finally, IMO keeping up with the fast guys on weekend rides is the wrong target. Develop the pedal stroke while maintaining fluidity on the bike is the target. Speed is the by-product of good form.

[Wimpy]

....It seems that the general internet community consensus is ......

If you think there is such a thing, you need to get out a read more.

When you are racing at a level that justifies a team of experts and time in the wind tunnel, then it will be time to worry about what you back look likes.

For now just ride you bike.
If you want to go fast, ride you bike as hard as you can.
If you want to go faster, start at the top of a long hill.

[firerescuefin]

Ability to get long and low is much more dependent on hip mobility and flexibility in hamstrings than what most people confuse for lower back flexibility. Low back is designed for stability, not mobility. FC can place his palms on the floor without effort and spends very little time working on mobility....according to Pruitt...he is an all around freak. Pushing your lower back to gain X position will end badly or very badly.

[tannhauser]

Thanks for all the responses. I think I get it. A few follow-up questions, to complete my understanding:

The pic of Cancellara above--it looks to me like his lower back is still curved quite a bit to meet the angle of his pelvis. Is this a prototypical "flat back"? It looks like the guy in the Steve Hogg blog with the "long effective torso" has a much flatter back and rotated pelvis

http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/LONG-EFFECTIVE-TORSO.png

--flatter than I've ever seen. Do some people really ride like this?

And is aero efficiency (if any) really the only benefit of a flat back? I thought there was something about being able to more effectively utilize the glutes, with the back flat and pelvis rotated forward. I am just a recreational rider, but every bit helps when trying to keep up with the fast guys on the weekend bike shop rides. Thanks again

That Hogg guy is posed in a studio.

Fabian is drillin' it.

I can get very flat, but the air isn't moving around me that fast.

Just ride. Lose weight. Get strong.

And figure it out yourself. It's your body.

[jlwdm]

Ability to get long and low is much more dependent on hip mobility and flexibility in hamstrings than what most people confuse for lower back flexibility. Low back is designed for stability, not mobility. FC can place his palms on the floor without effort and spends very little time working on mobility....according to Pruitt...he is an all around freak. Pushing your lower back to gain X position will end badly or very badly.

As I recall Pruitt said he was the most flexible rider he ever tested, and he basically does not do any flexibility training.

Jeff

[Jeff N.]

Repeatedly hitting my gut with my knees on each stroke precludes my riding with a horizontal back profile. :beer: Jeff N.