Nipples - the benefits of alloy

[GuyGadois]

Riding home tonight with my broken alloy nipple and wobbly wheel I got to thinking, why on earth do people desire alloy nipples? Why do wheel builders spec them? Is the weight savings really significant enough to notice? Really? Ok, let's say your not a pro time trailing up a serious category climb with only seconds to spare from losing that sacred jersey. Other then some grams of weight savings are there any other reasons to go alloy? Is cost the issue? Are we running out of brass? Did the UCI ban it? What am I missing other then a true wheel?

G. Gadois

[saab2000]

I have never broken one. When properly lubed on the threads and the surface meeting the rim they turn fine and don't corrode.

At least that's my experience.

[merckx]

I have wheelsets that use both. The brass wheels see winter/rain duty. The only alloy nipples that have broken on me were Wheelsmith made.

[AngryScientist]

alloy nipples are lighter and can be anodized in any color inexpensively, i think thats why they are popular.

all of the wheels i have had built use brass nipples, the weight savings or colors dont interest me. durability all the way.

[witcombusa]

Anyone interested in "colors" for their nipples or saving a few grams deserves what they get..... :crap:

[Bob Loblaw]

Alloy nipples weigh about .3 grams per and brass weigh about 1 gram per. On a 28 spoke wheel that translates to about 20 grams of rotating mass.

Brass nipples never corrode, never break, hold up well under truing wrenches even after years of use. Alloy nipples corrode and crumble and the flat surfaces round on older wheels when you try to true them.

Brass for me. 20 grams hardly even shows up on as scale. Skip one donut a week and go brass

BL

[ergott]

I have yet to have an alloy nipple fail or seize. Builder error when they do.

[Vientomas]

I used to have my wheels built with alloy nipples. Lighter and neat colors. When I started to build my own wheels, my first set had alloy nipples. That was the last set. It's all brass for me now. For me, the minimal weight savings and neat colors don't overcome the ease of building and truing with brass.

[oldpotatoe]

Riding home tonight with my broken alloy nipple and wobbly wheel I got to thinking, why on earth do people desire alloy nipples? Why do wheel builders spec them? Is the weight savings really significant enough to notice? Really? Ok, let's say your not a pro time trailing up a serious category climb with only seconds to spare from losing that sacred jersey. Other then some grams of weight savings are there any other reasons to go alloy? Is cost the issue? Are we running out of brass? Did the UCI ban it? What am I missing other then a true wheel?

G. Gadois

-'lighter' and pretty colors
-many wheelbuilders don't use them(I don't) because they do nothing, are softer than chrome plated brass and over time do fail far more frequently than brass
-weight savings means almost nothing, but is a huge benefit for marketeers, even some wheelbuiders will 'market' the huge benefit to aluminum nipps
-no 'reason' to use aluminum nipps, none.

You aren't missing anything, brass nipples are the way to go.

[oldpotatoe]

I have yet to have an alloy nipple fail or seize. Builder error when they do.

I seen plenty of aluminum nipps disintegrate when trying to true the wheel, an older wheel, with many miles. Or just have the head break off when stressing the wheel after truing, older wheels. Having the nipp do that has nothing to do with the builder.

[wasfast]

+1 on using brass. The issues with aluminum and the minor weight savings don't make it anywhere near worth it to me building wheels. Same for internal nipples for aero/aesthetic benefit, especially on tubulars.

I've gone full circle for my own wheels. I have a "no wierd wheels" rule where buying spokes or other parts requires special ordering etc. The potential benefits aren't worth the hassle.

[Gummee]

I have yet to have an alloy nipple fail or seize. Builder error when they do.Humph.

Went to true a Zipp/American Classic wheel and two of the 4 sides of the AL nipple crumbled off in my wrench. How's that 'builder error?'

I've built a few wheels with AL nipples over the years. They seem to do OK for the first 4-5 years. Then I notice problems starting.

You can get the same corrosion problems with brass nipples, but it takes a LOT longer. :nod The wheels that were built for a buddy of mine in the late 80s are starting to get a little green around the nipples...

M

[Gummee]

I've gone full circle for my own wheels. I have a "no wierd wheels" rule where buying spokes or other parts requires special ordering etc. The potential benefits aren't worth the hassle.
Maybe that's one of the reasons I keep going back to Ritchey wheels. I can get spokes for em, then fix em myself. They're not AL. They're not some wonky S-bend. Spokes with nipples I can get to if I need to true em.

M

[jh_on_the_cape]

I have yet to have an alloy nipple fail or seize. Builder error when they do.

or rider error, a crash or curb collision that whacks the rim out of true. I have a wheelset that would need a rim transplant if it did not have brass nips. I used spoke tension to get it back straight. True, the spoke tension is way uneven now but it is rideable. The wheelset is old enough that a rim transplant is not really worth it. So the brass nips kept it out of the trash.

I have another one with alloy nips. Many are rounded off now. I use a good park tool spoke wrench. I started replacing the ruined ones with brass nips. but that means removing the tire and rim strip and it's a pain.

So if you only ride newish wheels and toss or sell them when they get wonky, alloy nips. But if you commute, etc. and need your bike to work, brass.

[gdw]

You roadies are tough on wheels. All of my mtb wheels are built with alloy nipples, several are over ten years old, and I've never had one fail or seize up.

Methinks you guys should loss some weight or find a new builder. :banana:

[AngryScientist]

i find the biggest problem with alloy nipples are corrosion from road salt, if you ride in the winter on salted roads, soft alu alloy is particularly susceptible to corrosion, the kind that forms that nasty white crust, and pitts the alloy.

[zap]

No problems with alloy nips on our tandems (let alone road or mtb singles). One wheel set is 10 years old.

We destroyed a rear hub (WI) and rims (notably Mavic Reflex) and busted tired spokes but never a broken alloy nip.

All wheel builders I've dealt with were happy to build with alloy nips. I too have built several wheel sets with both brass and alloy. Brass is mindless but alloy does require more care during assembly if one builds to last.

[ergott]

I say builder error because if the builder takes the necessary steps during assembly there are no problems. These are the same steps I use for brass nipples as well.

1) Use a quality waterproof grease in between the nipple and the rim (or eyelet).

2) Use anti-seize compound on the threads of the spoke.

3) Always use a 4 sided nipple wrench. The 3 sided Park tool I see in every shop is a POS. Park makes a newer one that is 4 sided and there are others.

I'm amazed at how many people don't do this.

When this is done properly, the nipples will turn freely for years. I bashed my own wheel that was on my cross bike for about 4 years. I never touched them before this and the wheels get plenty of abuse, dirt, mud and water. I had no problem turning the nipples and didn't even mar the blue anodizing. Actually, the anodized colors (even black) will make the nipples last even longer as they prevent corrosion.

No one I know complains about all the carbon wheels with internal nipples. Guess what? Those are alloy.

I still stand behind my previous statement. If the nipples aren't turning, it's the builder's error. You might not necessarily have been the one who built them if you have to work on them.

[oldpotatoe]

I say builder error because if the builder takes the necessary steps during assembly there are no problems. These are the same steps I use for brass nipples as well.

1) Use a quality waterproof grease in between the nipple and the rim (or eyelet).

2) Use anti-seize compound on the threads of the spoke.

3) Always use a 4 sided nipple wrench. The 3 sided Park tool I see in every shop is a POS. Park makes a newer one that is 4 sided and there are others.

I'm amazed at how many people don't do this.

When this is done properly, the nipples will turn freely for years. I bashed my own wheel that was on my cross bike for about 4 years. I never touched them before this and the wheels get plenty of abuse, dirt, mud and water. I had no problem turning the nipples and didn't even mar the blue anodizing. Actually, the anodized colors (even black) will make the nipples last even longer as they prevent corrosion.

No one I know complains about all the carbon wheels with internal nipples. Guess what? Those are alloy.

I still stand behind my previous statement. If the nipples aren't turning, it's the builder's error. You might not necessarily have been the one who built them if you have to work on them.

Not to belabor this but I do steps one, two and three but still don't like to use them.

Wheel comes in, some use to it. Often I squeeze the paired spokes together before truing, and have broke more than a few heads off of those aluminum nipples. If they had some real advantage to them, why not but I see no advantage to aluminum nipples. Colors, I guess.

For the gent with aluminum nipples on his tandem, glad the wheels are OK but of what use or advantage is there on a what, 275+ pound tandem plus riders. Just wondering what the wheelbuilder was thinking as he/she designed these.

IMHO, of course.

[charliedid]

Riding home tonight with my broken alloy nipple and wobbly wheel I got to thinking, why on earth do people desire alloy nipples? Why do wheel builders spec them? Is the weight savings really significant enough to notice? Really? Ok, let's say your not a pro time trailing up a serious category climb with only seconds to spare from losing that sacred jersey. Other then some grams of weight savings are there any other reasons to go alloy? Is cost the issue? Are we running out of brass? Did the UCI ban it? What am I missing other then a true wheel?

G. Gadois

I don't know...why on earth are you riding them?

Just sayin'

[zap]

For the gent with aluminum nipples on his tandem, glad the wheels are OK but of what use or advantage is there on a what, 275+ pound tandem plus riders. Just wondering what the wheelbuilder was thinking as he/she designed these.

IMHO, of course.

Because we can.

You can talk to Jeremy at Alchemy about what he was thinking. He built our last sub 1750g tandem wheel set. He's done more radical wheels too for a lighter (sub 300lb) team.

[GuyGadois]

I don't know...why on earth are you riding them?

Just sayin'


Because I live dangerously and need the few ounce advantage.

Seriously, it sounds like the only advantages ironed out here are:
1) insignificant weight savings
2) color choices

Other than that, the reason that wheel builders use them isn't because they are better then brass it is because they haven't had any problems with them because they built the wheels properly while other cyclists who have had their alloy nipple break had their wheels built by builders who didn't take the necessary steps to mitigate nipple failure. Really? I haven't heard one argument that says they use them because they are superior to brass. The argument is that if you take extra special care then they will perform like the brass. Still, why not just use brass? :confused:
GG

[Bob Loblaw]

Exactly!



Seriously, it sounds like the only advantages ironed out here are:
1) insignificant weight
2) color choices

Other than that, the reason that wheel builders use them isn't because they are better then brass it is because they haven't had any problems with them because they built the wheels properly while other cyclists who have had their alloy nipple break had their wheels built by builders who didn't take the necessary steps to mitigate nipple failure. Really? I haven't heard one argument that says they use them because they are superior to brass. The argument is that if you take extra special care then they will perform like the brass. Still, why not just use brass? :confused:
GG

[ergott]

I haven't heard one argument that says they use them because they are superior to brass.

I haven't heard one argument that makes me want to use brass unless the customer specifies it. :rolleyes:

[JLP]

I haven't heard one argument that makes me want to use brass unless the customer specifies it. :rolleyes:

What do you prefer for anti-seize?

[saab2000]

If you like brass nipples, use them. If you don't, then don't use them.

I've been to Ergott Industries Intercontinental HQ and met with the top brass at that company and can vouch for the fact that his teams of builders know what they're doing.

And by teams, I mean him.

We're in agreement.

I'm no lightweight but I have built a lot of my own wheels with alloy nips and have never had a problem. Never had a problem with brass either. They're both good but alloy is not a problem IMHO if properly constructed.

[maunahaole]

I have had alloy fail - not just one, but many at the same time. No more alloy for me just based on that experience. I'm not a good candidate as I'm a fatass who lives near the ocean. Salt air is not kind to bare aluminum. I'll lose 20 grams in sweat in no time on a ride, so the weight is a non-starter compared to my peace of mind.

That said, many of the reputable wheelbuilders say that the new alloy nips are far better than they were in the past.

[Villgaxx]

If you like brass nipples, use them. If you don't, then don't use them.

I've been to Ergott Industries Intercontinental HQ and met with the top brass at that company and can vouch for the fact that his teams of builders know what they're doing.

And by teams, I mean him.

We're in agreement.

I'm no lightweight but I have built a lot of my own wheels with alloy nips and have never had a problem. Never had a problem with brass either. They're both good but alloy is not a problem IMHO if properly constructed.

top brass. i get it.

[ergott]

What do you prefer for anti-seize?

I've been using the same tub for 10+ years.

(not my picture)
http://www.expeditionexchange.com/blaster/antiseize%20006.jpg

[DRietz]

Eric - I love the sets you put out there, I also use the same anti-seize and the same method.

No detriments to a properly built wheelset with alloy nipples, IMO.

[Chance]

Because I live dangerously and need the few ounce advantage.

Seriously, it sounds like the only advantages ironed out here are:
1) insignificant weight savings
2) color choices

Other than that, the reason that wheel builders use them isn't because they are better then brass it is because they haven't had any problems with them because they built the wheels properly while other cyclists who have had their alloy nipple break had their wheels built by builders who didn't take the necessary steps to mitigate nipple failure. Really? I haven't heard one argument that says they use them because they are superior to brass. The argument is that if you take extra special care then they will perform like the brass. Still, why not just use brass? :confused:
GG
You mean other than weight? :confused:

That in itself is "superior" to many riders. Whether we think difference is not enough to worry about doesn't change fact that many riders pay a price premium to make their bikes lighter. For those who place a value on lightness alloy "is" superior.

[Bob Loblaw]

You could literally save more weight by riding without one of your socks.

I will build wheels with alloy but I always try to talk the customer into brass.

BL

You mean other than weight? :confused:

That in itself is "superior" to many riders. Whether we think difference is not enough to worry about doesn't change fact that many riders pay a price premium to make their bikes lighter. For those who place a value on lightness alloy "is" superior.

[ultraman6970]

Thought this thread was about janet jackson and her metallic nipple thingy

[Chance]

You could literally save more weight by riding without one of your socks.

I will build wheels with alloy but I always try to talk the customer into brass.

BL
Not advocating either point of view. Just that lightness is normally valued and therefore should be considered an advantage. If adding a few grams here or there is not an issue then maybe it should be compared with other lightness options to see what actually reduces a bikes reliability the most per unit weight saved.

In post #6 you estimated plus or minus 20 grams per wheel, or around 40 grams total. If a rider was trying to save weight (or trying to avoid adding weight to bike), would he be better off using alloy nipples to save the 40 grams, or use tires that are 20 grams lighter each, or lighter rims, etc…..? How about taking 20 grams off bars and another 20 grams off stem? Would that compromise safety and reliability more than using alloy nipples?

We have to draw the “weight” line somewhere. If not socks maybe shoes, saddles, tires, and so on.

Obviously alloy nipples can reduce strength and or durability but so too does just about everything else that saves weight on a bike. Pick your poison or we’ll be riding 50 pound bikes. :beer:

[rice rocket]

Thought this thread was about janet jackson and her metallic nipple thingy

SAMESIES!

[hillzofvalp]

I wish I used brass.. can't torque the alloys without skuffing the hell out of them

[oldpotatoe]

Not advocating either point of view. Just that lightness is normally valued and therefore should be considered an advantage. If adding a few grams here or there is not an issue then maybe it should be compared with other lightness options to see what actually reduces a bikes reliability the most per unit weight saved.

In post #6 you estimated plus or minus 20 grams per wheel, or around 40 grams total. If a rider was trying to save weight (or trying to avoid adding weight to bike), would he be better off using alloy nipples to save the 40 grams, or use tires that are 20 grams lighter each, or lighter rims, etc…..? How about taking 20 grams off bars and another 20 grams off stem? Would that compromise safety and reliability more than using alloy nipples?

We have to draw the “weight” line somewhere. If not socks maybe shoes, saddles, tires, and so on.

Obviously alloy nipples can reduce strength and or durability but so too does just about everything else that saves weight on a bike. Pick your poison or we’ll be riding 50 pound bikes. :beer:

Last post for me as I see this going into the 'weight loss' path. Just about everybody on this forum and just about every recreational rider, enthusiast rider, whatever, could probably lose pounds off their body rather than ounces off their bicycle. To decide to add 20 grams to a wheel doesn't put anybody on a path toward 50 pound bicycles.

I'm tapping out.

[Chance]

When Shimano introduces a new group that saves 40 grams and makes a big deal out of it in their advertising campaign no one criticizes them for being delusional as if 40 grams doesn’t matter at all because the buyer has a 36-inch waist. And Campy is no different, nor are all the boutique manufacturers that save grams off brake sets and so on.

We don’t have to pursue light weight ourselves to appreciate that others do because it is of value to them. Basically my view is that it’s not for us to decide what others should want.

[Kontact]

Weight is the single most important factor in the sales and marketing of new road bikes for the last 20+ years. Anyone who says that counting grams is stupid must have missed the fact that current road bikes are 4 times more expensive than similiar bikes in 1990, and only really different in weight.

I think all the Park wrenches are awful. Even they're four sided ones will collapse a brass or alloy nipple that a Spokey/DT will turn easily.

Nine times out of ten, if the heads are breaking off alloy nipples, the spoke is too short.


What I think is nuts are the people that spend $500 or more dollars on 2000 gram wheelsets. The expense of a good wheelset these days is because it is built to last despite low weight. Just about any okay 32 spoke wheel will last a real long time if it just gets tensioned right in the first place.

If you are going to spend a lot of money, at least take advantage of all the neat things that are being done to get wheel weight and rotational weight down to a reasonable level. That might be thinner spokes, alloy axles, light rims OR alloy nipples.

If you think weight is a stupid reason to do anything, just keep your '80s steel bike with the quill stem going. It will go just as well as anything modern, it just will weigh more.

[echappist]

Last post for me as I see this going into the 'weight loss' path. Just about everybody on this forum and just about every recreational rider, enthusiast rider, whatever, could probably lose pounds off their body rather than ounces off their bicycle. To decide to add 20 grams to a wheel doesn't put anybody on a path toward 50 pound bicycles.

I'm tapping out.

+1. No one should be complaining about 20g of weight until they can at least do 4.5w/kg for an hour.

[ergott]

+1. No one should be complaining about 20g of weight until they can at least do 4.5w/kg for an hour.

Sir, yes sir! :rolleyes:

How about you go ride what makes you happy and I (others) will too. No one died and left you boss.

:beer:

[Kontact]

+1. No one should be complaining about 20g of weight until they can at least do 4.5w/kg for an hour.
By the same token, no one here has any excuse for riding anything nicer than a Giant with Tiagra.

Poof, the forum implodes as discussion about bikes becomes unnecessary in the light of truth.

[echappist]

Sir, yes sir! :rolleyes:

How about you go ride what makes you happy and I (others) will too. No one died and left you boss.

:beer:
a veiled jab. very classy. :rolleyes:

here, allow me to retort: when's the last time you rode 3 hours in 20F weather (with 10F windchill) on heavily rock salted roads? what's that? do i hear crickets chirping?

You all just can't face the fact that you have some mass to trim but would prefer to spend your way out. Nothing wrong with that: we need someone to stimulate the economy. ;)

[Kontact]

a veiled jab. very classy. :rolleyes:

here, allow me to retort: when's the last time you rode 3 hours in 20F weather (with 10F windchill) on heavily rock salted roads? what's that? do i hear crickets chirping?

You all just can't face the fact that you have some mass to trim but would prefer to spend your way out. Nothing wrong with that: we need someone to stimulate the economy. ;)
What kind of bike do you ride, sir?

[ergott]

a veiled jab. very classy. :rolleyes:

here, allow me to retort: when's the last time you rode 3 hours in 20F weather (with 10F windchill) on heavily rock salted roads? what's that? do i hear crickets chirping?

You all just can't face the fact that you have some mass to trim but would prefer to spend your way out. Nothing wrong with that: we need someone to stimulate the economy. ;)

Why the fuc|< do you expect crickets? You think you are the only one in the world that rides their bike?

You are barking up the wrong tree. I do ride outdoors all winter. I do long rides on the weekend and commute during the week. Last I checked, I live in an area of salted, sanded and generally crappy roads too. I'm sure we aren't the only ones.

It wasn't a veiled jab. You are telling people what to do based on your priorities. I don't agree with them. The world is a big enough place for people that disagree with you.

The difference between our posts is I have no problem with your choices. Why don't you try the same?

[echappist]

The difference between our posts is I have no problem with your choices. Why don't you try the same?

You know what, you are right. I apologize about the snide remarks. You make good wheels and know how to get the alloy nipples right so you don't have to touch them ever again. I don't trust my abilities as much and use alloy.

What kind of bike do you ride, sir?
is that another way of asking i practice what i preach?

[Kontact]

You know what, you are right. I apologize about the snide remarks. You make good wheels and know how to get the alloy nipples right so you don't have to touch them ever again. I don't trust my abilities as much and use alloy.


is that another way of asking i practice what i preach?
It is. There is much said about the foolish purchases of those that count grams, and often by people who spend the money for Dura Ace and Record.

So I'd like to hear about your 36 spoke wheeled, Sora equipped steel frame and fork bike to provide some counterpoint.