Question About Pressing Headset Cups

[yummygooey]

Disclaimer: Dumb question below. I just don't want to mess up my frame.

I used a Park Tools headset press to press in headset cups into my Titanium frame one at a time. I thought I had pushed the bottom in completely straight, but I just noticed that I didn't get the bottom cup all the way in even though I thought I was turning the tool pretty hard. While there is no gap towards the front of the bike, there is a small gap ~0.75mm towards the back of the cup.

Do I need to remove the cup entirely to reseat the cup or should I just give the headset tool a couple more turns?

I think I know the answer... but I trust your guys' expertise more than my own intuition when it comes to bike fixin'! :p

Edit - Pictures here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/57726560@N07/

[fjaws]

Couple more turns.

[Peter P.]

It's kinda odd you have an offset gap to begin with. Usually, after you get the cup started, it straightens out well before it's completely installed.

Just put the the headset cup press back on and finish it off. You'll be fine.

Good on you for pressing in one cup at a time. If you try both at once, you invariably get both cups off-kilter and wind up applying needless extra force to straighten out both cups at the same time. I question whether that can lead to problems, especially with steel or aluminum frames. Better to be safe and go one cup at a time.

[yummygooey]

Great! This makes my life easier, haha.

I've tried putting both cups in at once before and it was a HUGE pain and I would have to reset the cups multiples times. It's much better doing one cup at a time.

I was surprised how easily the bottom cup slid in, actually. I didn't really have to put much force on it at all until the cup only had a few millimeters left to go.

[Louis]

The only thing I might consider (can't say for sure, without seeing it) is finding some "gap filler" like a small washer, or a small bit of wood, or whatever to put in on the back side of the press between the cup and the press so as you tighten down it will press on the back side first, and hopefully seat it without loading up the front side.

It might be easier to do this if you can flip the frame over, and have the bottom cup pointing up instead of down.

Just an idea. Not sure if it's a good idea or not. I've only done a handful of these, and as stated above, once they start to go in they tend to straighten out on their own. Others who have done this a zillion times will be better suitied to tell you whether or not you should just apply a bit more force to close that gap without bother to offset where that force is being applied.

Whatever you do, don't apply what seems like an insane amount of force. If it's truly bottomed out on the HT in front, then applying too much force will only result in bad things.

Good Luck

Edit: Also, are you sure that the bottom face of the HT is normal to the axis of the tube? If not, that's bad, but it would explain why the cup does not seat properly.

[yummygooey]

Edit: Also, are you sure that the bottom face of the HT is normal to the axis of the tube? If not, that's bad, but it would explain why the cup does not seat properly.

Good question. How can I check this?

This is a used frame... I probably should have checked before I pulled the cups out in the first place.

I haven't had a chance to get to the tools back out yet, but hopefully tomorrow I can give it another shot.

[oliver1850]

If it's a straight head tube on a tigged frame, you could check it with a small machinist's square, with the cup out.

[David Kirk]

Measuring the head tube for squareness will be really hard. Distortion during welding will make using a square pretty inaccurate. The only sure way to know for sure is to put cutters in there and take a very light skim cut off both end and then you'll know.

I don't know what you have going on here with the cups and head tube but something seems amiss.

dave

[yummygooey]

Well I'll give it another shot today and see what happens.

The last thing I want to do is actually take it to my LBS to have them face the head tube... they're jerks, and last time they did it they chipped my frame.

[Shiversolitude]

Keep Pressing.

Ive done quite a few headsets and dont think Ive ever had one go in straight and level, they will level out as you press them in.

[oldpotatoe]

Keep Pressing.

Ive done quite a few headsets and dont think Ive ever had one go in straight and level, they will level out as you press them in.

They will as long as the headtube faces are parallel..I think he oughta get the headtube faced, even if the LBS guys are jerks. Makes for a longer lasting headset.

[Ti Designs]

Ive done quite a few headsets and dont think Ive ever had one go in straight and level, they will level out as you press them in.

You should think about investing in some better tooling...

[yummygooey]

I gave it another shot today but the results look more or less the same. Here are some pictures:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/57726560@N07

The gap is very small - barely big enough for a razor blade... but it's there. It's hard to see in the pictures, but there is no gap at the front side of the cup.

I felt like I was turning the tool (Park Tool HHP-2) pretty hard. I even took the cup out and put it back in, but I got the same results. It actually goes in really nice and easy, but at the end this is what happens.

The top cup has full contact all the way around.

[eddief]

you could drive a tractor through that opening. NOT!

maybe the paint was uneven on the bottom face of your headtube?

ride that sucker and don't worry about it.

[yummygooey]

Haha, there's no paint on the head tube... raw Ti.

I'm concerned about the longevity of the headset (this headset is temporary, it will be replaced by a King) and possibly ovalizing the head tube.

[aoe]

Despite the small gap, I'd still get the ht faced in my opinion.

[eddief]

think things are fine for now, but do what allows you to sleep well. and certainly do it right before installing the CK.

[Louis]

That's a pretty teeny difference. I'd ride it as is.

Ride the bike a few times then while standing and straddling the bike apply the front brake really hard and try to rock the bike fwd and aft. If everything is still tight (i.e. the cup did not migrate up to cause things to loosen a bit) then forget about the whole thing. You're done.

[yummygooey]

The CK is getting sent back to King tomorrow for some service that I couldn't do myself, so I should have it back to me in about two weeks.

I'm thinking about just riding the Cane Creek as is, and then I'll take the frame in for the HT facing/King cup install.

I'm not too concerned about the Cane Creek headset because I got it for $5 and a couple of beers... So I guess the question is do I risk any damage to the frame with a gap that size?

If there is even a risk of damaging the frame, I'll just take the bike over to a buddy recommended LBS tomorrow. They quoted me $40 including cup removal/installation, which is much less than the cost of a new frame. It might help me sleep better if I just get it faced now...

[bobswire]

"So I guess the question is do I risk any damage to the frame with a gap that size?"

No, if anything it will seat itself riding the bike for any length of time but either way there is not enough space there to warrant concern.
Maybe the cup is skewered,those cups are not the most solid.
Wound up fork?

[yummygooey]

"So I guess the question is do I risk any damage to the frame with a gap that size?"

No, if anything it will seat itself riding the bike for any length of time but either way there is not enough space there to warrant concern.
Maybe the cup is skewered,those cups are not the most solid.
Wound up fork?

Yup! Wound Up fork. I've never ridden one, but I really love how the carbon catches the light... looks awesome!

I think the cup is ok. I originally had it installed with the "US PAT" label facing the rear, this time I have it installed with the label facing forward. Identical situation.

Now that I'm taking a closer look, it doesn't look like the head tube was ever faced because the edges of the tubing are ever so slightly rounded.

[yummygooey]

I just received confirmation from the seller that the head tube was never faced, so that's why I'm having problems.

I'll probably just ride it as is for now, and then take the frame into the shop in a couple months when I'm ready for the CK to be installed. No sense in excessively removing/installing cups, right?

[David Kirk]

I just received confirmation from the seller that the head tube was never faced, so that's why I'm having problems.

I'll probably just ride it as is for now, and then take the frame into the shop in a couple months when I'm ready for the CK to be installed. No sense in excessively removing/installing cups, right?

Take the cups in and out a few times will not hurt the frame in the slightest. I'd face it now and just be done with it. The headset will fit as it should, not wear prematurely, and not bind as you steer. It's worth doing now.

Dave

[yummygooey]

I just dropped off the frame for the head tube facing, which will be $40 including the cup removal/installation.

Should I also get my BB faced while I'm at it? I will be using a GXP BB, and that'll cost another $20.

[DogpawSlim]

You probably should face the BB shell, especially when using outboard bearings. You could do a lot worse than $20, assuming they know what they're doing.

[yummygooey]

Consider it done!

At this rate, I might as well just buy the tools... I've gotten 3 frames faced in the past year (the other two were for paint reasons).

[David Kirk]

I just dropped off the frame for the head tube facing, which will be $40 including the cup removal/installation.

Should I also get my BB faced while I'm at it? I will be using a GXP BB, and that'll cost another $20.

Yes - money well spent and it will help prevent creaking and premature bearing wear.

Did you say what brand of frame this was and why it wasn't faced from new?

Dave

[David Kirk]

Consider it done!

At this rate, I might as well just buy the tools... I've gotten 3 frames faced in the past year (the other two were for paint reasons).

FWIW - if you have a frame you know if properly faced but it has paint on the faces then you can remove the paint yourself very easily with a new utility type razor blade. Lay it down at a low angle and shave off the paint. Easy to do and no reason to pay to have this done.

dave

[yummygooey]

Dave - thanks for the tip on the paint removal. The first frame that got faced this year was due to a new powdercoat, and the second frame was just a new frame that also needed to be reamed.

The frame is a generic Ti frame made by XACD. I'm not sure why it wasn't faced from new... I asked the seller and he just said it hadn't been faced before.

Do bare frames usually come from factories faced, or is it something that is typically done by a bike shop?

[David Kirk]

Dave - thanks for the tip on the paint removal. The first frame that got faced this year was due to a new powdercoat, and the second frame was just a new frame that also needed to be reamed.

The frame is a generic Ti frame made by XACD. I'm not sure why it wasn't faced from new... I asked the seller and he just said it hadn't been faced before.

Do bare frames usually come from factories faced, or is it something that is typically done by a bike shop?

This depends on the era and who is building the frame. Back in the bad old days facing was something that was done by the bike shop before it was sold and not by the builder. The downside if this is that since the frame alignment uses the faces of the BB shell as the main reference it's hard to imagine how one could have a straight frame with an unfaced BB.

Over time this changed and now almost every builder and company I know of considers facing to be part of the frame building operation. IMO the frame should be delivered to the customer ready to hang parts on and ride - facing, rust proofing, chasing....etc.

Dave

[aoe]

IMO the frame should be delivered to the customer ready to hang parts on and ride - facing, rust proofing, chasing....etc.

Dave

And that's why you're in the framebuilding elite, seriously. There's a few builders that share that philosophy and it's those small details that make all the difference in the world and separate a good builder from a great experience. I've heard that Zanc goes above and beyond for his customers too.

When I purchased the Ellis Di2 bike, Dave Wages kindly offered to source the internal wiring kit for me and install the internal routing and the battery mount to make sure that any tweaks could be made while there at the shop. That way, all I have to do is install all the dummy-proof parts and ride the thing. He deserves a shout out for a fantastic customer experience as well.

[yummygooey]

That's what I get for buying a factory produced frame! :p

[yummygooey]

Wow...

Hm...

The shop called me up today and said they can't face Ti frames because it will mess up their tools (or something to that effect). Then I called the other two shops in the area and neither of them will do it either.

What now? Take the frame to a machine shop or just ride it?

If I leave it as is, I will probably put the King on a different bike.

[David Kirk]

Wow...

Hm...

The shop called me up today and said they can't face Ti frames because it will mess up their tools (or something to that effect). Then I called the other two shops in the area and neither of them will do it either.

What now? Take the frame to a machine shop or just ride it?

If I leave it as is, I will probably put the King on a different bike.

That sounds really odd. One uses the same cutters in Ti as steel or aluminum. Use lots of fluid and it will work just as it should.

Dave

[oliver1850]

Another instance of "you need a better LBS".

Try Vitesse in Bloomington, they are your next closest good shop. Maybe you can make an appointment, and they'll do it while you wait. Bushwacker in Peoria is good, but a bit far for you.

[yummygooey]

Seriously... I really do. It's very frustrating. I wasn't expecting much from the second and third shops I tried (Durst locations 1 and 2) based on prior experience, but I thought for sure the first shop I tried (Champaign Cycle) was going to take care of the frame for me. When they told me they couldn't do it, they suggested I take the frame to a machine shop...

I'm thinking I'll just ride the frame as is for a couple weeks... I'm going on winter break from school in a week anyways.

My CK is on it's way back to CK for service, and they'll ship it to my home address when they're done with it. At that point I'll have plenty of bike shops to try (near Chicago).

[oliver1850]

Might as well go to Get a Grip, you can price a new Serotta while you're at it.

[yummygooey]

It looks like Get A Grip would charge me an arm and a leg for a HT and BB facing.

Honestly, if it's going to cost me more than $75, then I'm either just going to forget about it and ride the frame as-is or I'm going to seriously consider selling the frame for what I paid and look for another project (like that Vicious Cycles in the classifieds).

[oliver1850]

To be honest, if it were mine I'd put a cheaper headset in it and test ride it. Keep the CK for a better frame. No doubt it would be better to have it perfect, but sometimes perfect just isn't worth the extra effort and $. You may find something in 6 months you like better, and when you sell this frame your $75 is just pfffffffffffft. Nobody is going to give you $75 more for it because you had the head tube faced. If you were going to keep it for 10 years it would be worth doing, but I'd put money on it that you won't have it that long.

[yummygooey]

I think that's a very good point, thanks for the perspective. This is my first road bike... so who knows if I'm going to keep it for the long haul or move on to something nicer in a few months/years time. I can almost guarantee this is going to happen at the rate I've been buying selling frames (this is my 4th bike in a year's time).

I went ahead and emailed the shops in my area back home anyways. I'll see if they're willing to do the frame prep.

Maybe my 853 Teesdale track frame is worthy of a King? :p

[oldpotatoe]

Wow...

Hm...

The shop called me up today and said they can't face Ti frames because it will mess up their tools (or something to that effect). Then I called the other two shops in the area and neither of them will do it either.

What now? Take the frame to a machine shop or just ride it?

If I leave it as is, I will probably put the King on a different bike.

Use dish washing soap as a lubricant and facing won't kill the tools.

[pitcrew]

Wow...

Hm...

The shop called me up today and said they can't face Ti frames because it will mess up their tools (or something to that effect). Then I called the other two shops in the area and neither of them will do it either.

What now? Take the frame to a machine shop or just ride it?

If I leave it as is, I will probably put the King on a different bike.

Ti can be faced/etc (I've done plenty of ti frames with my tools). As already noted just use plenty of lube.

[Ti Designs]

The shop called me up today and said they can't face Ti frames because it will mess up their tools (or something to that effect). Then I called the other two shops in the area and neither of them will do it either

I've been machining titanium for a while, I must have missed that chapter in the handbook. Honestly, they need to keep the cutting force high so the surface doesn't work harden. Other than that, facing uses the same dynamics as turning - I can turn 3/2.5 with HSS cutters all day. Milling processes where the cutting surface leaves and recontacts the surface can be more of an issue, but mostly because the cutters pick up titanium chips and drag them across the surface.

Bike shops send their fit staff to fit schools, we're at the point where their mechanics could use a few days in a tech school learning about machining...

[yummygooey]

Of all the shops I contacted, Get A Grip is the only one that will do it.

$30 head tube, $30 BB... which I believe is a reasonable price.

The only downside is that they are 45 minutes away by car, and I don't have a car.

[dave thompson]

Of all the shops I contacted, Get A Grip is the only one that will do it.

$30 head tube, $30 BB... which I believe is a reasonable price.

The only downside is that they are 45 minutes away by car, and I don't have a car.
.....a friend and a six-pack of really good beer often works.