OT: The cost of caring.

[Len J]

Well, I have had a crappy week and just need to vent a little.


My oldest son (23 YO), who I have been worried had an alcohol problem, got his second DUI in late June. Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on how you look at it) he decided not to tell anyone and deal with it himself. I found out about it Sunday because his brother (who is in recovery), was worried about him. His dealing with it includes basically ignoring it and planning to just go to the hearing and ask for a delay. He has (as near as anyone knows), not gotten an attorney. The Hearing is this Friday.


Now, I know that my oldest son has never learned anything by being told something. He has to experience it himself. This is but one more example.


I have been thru this before with both my Brother and my other Son and I know that the best thing to do is let him know I care, but that this is his problem and he needs to deal with it......but God it's hard not to try to help him. The only way he is ever going to deal with his real problem (especially him) is to get hit in the head with a 2 X 4 of reality. The consequences (or 2 X 4) of this in the state he is in, is a minimum of 60 days in jail. If he had a good attorney, he probably could get probation contingent on entering a rehab, and maybe less but who knows.


I feel like I?m watching a train wreck in which I hope he gets less hurt than what he learns.


I?m really trying to have faith that he will get what he needs out of this, but damn it's hard when it's someone you love.


God, life is hard sometimes.

SIGH!


Len

[JohnS]

Good luck! It's hard when it's someone you love. Sometimes "tough love" is the best thing you can do for the other person in the long run.

[cdmc]

As hard as it is, I believe you are doing the right thing. I have a son and know how I would do anything to help him. I also have a younger brother, I have watched destroy himself with meth and if that isn't enought, he likely has Aids, as he pays for his habit with unprotected sex (I made the mistake of trying to fix a computer he had borrowed from my mother, I don't know if I will ever get the images out of my mind). We have tried to help him over the years, but he doesn't want help, only money to spend on drugs. Until he is ready to change himself, there is nothing that can be done.

Your son will have to find his own bottom where he wants to change his life. 60 days in Jail may be that bottom and hopefully will be. Just as when he was a baby, you can't prevent him from falling, but you can be there to help him up.

Good Luck

[Serotta PETE]

Hope all goes well Friday, I

I went thru it with my sister and I have a friend who has had too many of these with his son in the States of Georgia and NC.

Let me know how things turn out.

PETE

[BumbleBeeDave]

I'm real sorry to hear you are having to deal with this. It has to be difficult. I want to make sure I understand what you're saying , though. It sounds like from your description that this is three male members of your family that have had substance abuse problems--your brother, and your two sons? If that's the case, I have read several places about there being a genetic component to addicitve personalities. It argues for asking the court to send him to some sort of inpatient detox and therapy program rather than just throwing him in jail. That would simply get him off the street, but most likely not do anything to help the underlying problem, IMHO. He needs to get some help in dealing with the addictive personality.

BBDave

[pjm]

Good luck with your son, Len. Maybe someday you can get him hooked on cycling. :)

[Frank]

better deal with a family member's drug problem. I learned a lot about myself along the way, and my family situation was no longer determined by the choices someone else chose to make.

[Johny]

Len,

Sorry to hear the problem and I don't know how to help. Hope good things can come out of this.

John

[Len J]

I'm real sorry to hear you are having to deal with this. It has to be difficult. I want to make sure I understand what you're saying , though. It sounds like from your description that this is three male members of your family that have had substance abuse problems--your brother, and your two sons? If that's the case, I have read several places about there being a genetic component to addicitve personalities. It argues for asking the court to send him to some sort of inpatient detox and therapy program rather than just throwing him in jail. That would simply get him off the street, but most likely not do anything to help the underlying problem, IMHO. He needs to get some help in dealing with the addictive personality.

BBDave

Both Parents, 3 of 4 grandparents, 7 of 10 genetic aunts and Uncles, 2 of my siblings (only 4 of us) as well as 2 of my 4 children,were or are alchocholics or other substance abusers. I've known since the kids were little (they are all over 20 now) that they were genetically at risk and have exposed them repeatedly to the resources available as well as had them very closely involved with my Brothers recovery.......it is not a hidden disease in this family. All of this is why my youngest son was able to ask for help when he was 19 and we were able to get him the help he needed (3 years clean and sober thank God). Unfortunatly, my older son has never learned anything by example....he has to experience it.

As to your recommendation, I agree it is a mitigating factor, what i am struggling with is "Is it the best thing for him to be in any way saved from the consequences at this point?" He's 23, he's an adult, and while I have and will offer advice and support, I really believe that he has to help himself or fall flat on his face before he will be ready for real help. I hate it, It hurts like hell to watch him, but it may be what he needs.

Thanks for all the responses.

Len

[Doc Austin]

Good luck with your son, Len. Maybe someday you can get him hooked on cycling. :)

Oh, yeah. None of us ever hurt ourselves cycling. :banana:

Seriously, Len, thoughts go out to you. We were all stupid when we were that yong, and hopefully that's all it is and he'll get over it.


Oh, check your PMs

[cpg]

Len,

As a parent of little kids, I can't imagine how I would handle this. It sounds like you're doing the best considering the circumstances. Please make sure you take care of yourself during this difficult time.

Curt

[Spinsistah]

Hey Len, I'm so sorry to hear of this. It's really hard. Metro's daughter, who is now 18, was in and out of the psych ward for cutting on herself. She's okay now, but it's been so hard. She got caught up in a bad crowd, got into drugs and alcohol. We wish you the best of luck on Friday.

[Too Tall]

Since you choose to put this out for opinions I can't help but say you are brave and perhaps searching for answers. Mine is worthless, we have no children. However, he did not hurt anyone and has no "price to pay" for his stupidity in terms of harming others or society so why the @#$%@$ would you risk what could potentially happen to your own flesh and blood behind bars? Get the best lawyer you can even if you think he needs a lesson...I'm sure you can think of something else. This is your kid.

Apologize in advance for expression by gut reaction. Very sorry for your troubles.

[alembical]

I agree with TooTall. I would find him the best attorney you can. The difference of the impact this experience can have on him is real significant. A good attorney might be able to get a reduced sentence (not a huge deal), plead guilty to something more minor (can be real significant especially with many states 3 strikes and your out policies), save his record (or at least the number of felonies on it), most importantly result in court ordered rehab, and many other positives.

I would suggest a good sit down with him privately, then possibly a family intervention. Realizing the impact of his decisions and the fact that all of you care so much can do as much good as actually having to sit in jail for 60 days, which rarely actually does any type of positive rehabilitation. Get him some help. Jails don't help. Felonies, don't help, but rehab could. It would be a big shame if no one got involved and the next time had bad consequences.

all obviousely just my 2 cents, but I do wish you and your family all the best in trying to deal with this. Just feel real fortunate it is criminal trouble he is facing and he did not cause a real serious accident, which unfortunatley is bound to happen at some point if an individual keep drinking and driving.

Alembical

[pale scotsman]

It's his 2'nd DUI so you'd think he would have learned from the first. Bailing him out isn't going to help. My dad's younger brother got bailed out all his life and is a complete **** up well into his 50's.

It's sad to say but most kids these days get babied along never having to really pay the consequences. It's always someone elses fault, always. I've got a good friend whose dad was an achoholic, and to this day he has never even had one drink. He saw what it did to this family and made a choice.

I hate to see this happen to your family Len. I think you've made the right choice.

[alembical]

I definitely see both sides of the issue, it is just that I don't think that 60 days in jail and a felony (or another one) are helpful. Regardless of if you offer help and an attorney or not, I think you need to do everything in your power to get him in rehab. Getting him out of jail is not really the issue, the issue (at least to me) is getting him help, and I don't think our current legal system really does much to focus on that side of things (which is why the fact that it is his second is not all that surprising in today's society). If there is anything you can do to help him with his problem, his addiciton, his alcoholism, his disease, whatever you want to call it, you should do it.

Alembical

[Dekonick]

Prison is not the answer - rehab is.

Perhaps you can achieve both?

a good lawyer to keep the record kinda clean and plea with DA for residential ETOH treatment?

I don't know the legalities but if you retain a lawyer for your son and YOU are paying the bills you might be able to have the lawyer work rehab into the picture (I doubt your son would ask his lawyer to do that...)

Alcohol addiction is a tough one...hard to avoid it in our society thus hard to get and/or stay sober.

Best of luck!

Dek

oh; got the goodies - thanks.

[Kevan]

My heart goes out to you and I'm no expert here on this topic. Still, I've been sitting here pondering what everyone else has been saying and while I'm inclined to agree that letting the kid fall, enrolling him in the school of hard knocks might initially seem like a good idea, I'm not certain that in your case this is your best solution. Your boy is sick. He has a genetic disorder like other diseases that are passed down through generations, skipping the lucky few. He didn't go out and ask for this, he was given it. This is a curse to your family. Making matters worse, society has no patience or understanding for what you and your family are going through and it's likely that if the boy isn't helped now, and I mean REALLY helped now, it's likely he'll never address his disease and will lose much that his youth and life have to offer him and you. As we all know, the sad thing about alcoholism is your boys will never get better, this condition will ride like a monkey on their backs for the rest of their lives and they need your help to cope with it.

Call Al-Anon, call a lawyer, and get him to a doctor. He has cancer of the bottle. Go fight this f___ing disease that's stealing your family.

Once you got your game plan going, go out and have a quiet bike ride and a good cry. Take care of yourself, but don't let this sh- - take your boy easily.

Sorry if I'm stepping over bounds, the cruelty of life pisses me off.

[Fixed]

I am just a messenger and don't know very much but I do live in the inner city here's my 2 cents don't let him go to jail if you can help it jails don't help people and that's what your son needs. get an attorney they can do wonders in these cases.i.m.h.o.God bless you and your son

[Len J]

Some thoughts and observations from my experiences with this disease......

1.) Taking over the situitation will not be good for him. I agree that jail is not going to "cure" him, however, it needs to be up to him to save himself. I know that sounds harsh, but the truth is, good intentions are not going to get him to a place where he is ready for real help.

2.) Getting him into rehab solely to avoid jail, while the lesser of two evils to him, is going to help him very little......unless he is ready for help.

Guys (& gals), this isn't fixible from the outside. As much as I think I know what he needs & doesn't need, I really don't know what will trigger real healing.

An Update, I talked to him last night. Although you can never tell with a drunk, it appears that this DUI has scared the hellout of him. That' good. To his credit, he has reatined an attorney on his own and is exploring his options. When I asked him "what are you going to do about your real problem?" he didn't hesitate in telling me that hewants to deal with it after he takes care of the DUI........we'll see. I want to believe him but I've been manipulated by too many alcoholics.

We had a good talk, he knows I still Love him and will help him in any way help himself. He also knows that when he's ready for real help, I'm only a call away. I think that's the best I can do.

It still su**s but I'm more centered now.

Thanks for all the kind thoughts.

Len

[Doc Hollywood]

LenJ,

You have a tough decision, one that I will probably never have to make as I do not have children. My father had to go through the same thing with my brother that you are with your son. Thankfully, my brother got his act together and hasn't done it again.

My gut feel on this, based on your post, is that appareantly your son has decided to deal with it himself as he has not asked for assistance, so it could put a significant strain on your relationship to make him do what you want. As a father, you want to do the best for children and help them in any way that you can. At some point, you just have to let go.

My advice, again I don't have kids or am Dr. Phil, is to talk to him calmly about his situation, bring up points of what not getting the right legal advice and medical help can do for his life ahead, (job, credit score, etc.). Tell him you love him, are not mad or disappointed in him, and want to help in anyway that you can. Offer to get him legal advice and medical help if he wants. Even suggest to him that you have acquired a lawyer for an initial consult and suggest that the lawyer, he and you meet. Work hard to get him to at least take the initial consult meeting. After that, if he doesn't want to further pursue, that's okay, it's his choice. Same thing with the medical.

If a person doesn't want to be helped, you really can't forceably help them. Unless he has mental issues, he has the legal right to make his own decisions at his age. But, that doesn't stop you from continually supporting him in his effort to address this issue.

Best of Luck.


This topic, and the responses, are very interesting. I have found all the responses to be compasionate and supportive. However, the subject of DUI, DWI, OUI is a pretty intense social problem. How many times have we heard on the news that a an innocent person was killed because a drunk driver hit them? Worse, the drunk driver was a repeat offender. My first response always is no sympathy for the driver. I'll bet many of you do to, so the responses here, mine included, were not what I expected.

My personal belief is that after one offense, the license should be revoked for at least 6 months and the driver made to attend some type of AA program and satisfy the state that they can have their license back. Repeat offenders (Second time) should have their license permanently revoked, mandatory temporary jail time. If the third time, long-term jail time.

In Europe, drunk driving is not tolerated at all. The alcohol limit in one's blood is 0.05% or less, which equates to 1/2 beer or glass of wine. The problem with the US is that the population belives that driving is a inalienable right, not a priviledge. Consequently, drunk driving laws are written loosely to allow a lot lawyering to get out of. There is also a lot of plea bargaining for lesser charges to that the license to operate a vehicle can be still retained.

Doc

[JohnS]

I think we all need to support Len in his chosen course of action without being judgemental. I'm sure there are many facts that he hasn't mentioned. He's gone through it and knows the best course of action. It might be different if his son was 16 or this was his first offense.

[93legendti]

LenJ,
...This topic, and the responses, are very interesting. I have found all the responses to be compasionate and supportive. However, the subject of DUI, DWI, OUI is a pretty intense social problem. How many times have we heard on the news that a an innocent person was killed because a drunk driver hit them? Worse, the drunk driver was a repeat offender. My first response always is no sympathy for the driver. I'll bet many of you do to, so the responses hear, mine included, were not what I expected.

Doc

I agree. 2 months ago, a man lost his wife and 2 daughters to a drunk driver. The accident occurred at a time and place where my wife is often driving out our 2 1/2 year old daughter. There should be zero tolerance for drunk driving. Driving is a privilege, not a right. At 23 years old, a man should be able to make his own decisions. I have a cousin whose an alcoholic, so I am a little aware of the situation. His father, my uncle, was an enabler. Always there to bail out my cousin, even when he was 27 years old. Near as I can understad, the last thing an alcoholic needs is an enabler.

The way I would approach it is figure out the worst thing that can happen from his drinking, than try to help him help himself. In my view, if it is between jail/losing his license and him or someone else getting hurt becasue he is driving drunk, it is an easy choice. I know if he is sentenced to jail time, he can't be driving drunk harming innocent drivers.

[weisan]

Len-pal, I hesitate to contribute to your thread b'cos I realize I may not have anything good to say. I am not an expert in counselling people and I don't have any prior experience dealing with substance abuse problem.

Personally, when I read your thread, my first reaction was..."no."
Please allow me to elaborate.

As the father of your son, you should be at the center of his influence, not the beer bottle or his friends. I would encourage you to regain back that center of influence in his life, if you are not already. Please! I am NOT implying incompetence or negligence of duties here. I am offering an alternative viewpoint and my personal opinion. His age is not a barrier and how old he is now is not a good indicator of his maturity. In contrary to social norms, a child is not considered a grownup just because he has reached a certain age. Maturity is a demonstrated skillset, not something automatically bestowed upon by age or social status.

I would encourage you to do what you have to do to bring him back under your authority. If he doesn't want it, he still has to do it. It's not a choice. He needs to submit to your authority. If he hasn't learned that yet from young, he needs to learn that NOW!

Your authority with him is given by God, and tempered by gentleness, love and discipline. As an older child, you would give him the due respect, yes...but his actions up to this date, does not qualify for that level of respect from you. He has not demonstrated personal responsibility nor has he shown genuine remorse as indicated by repeated offense.

Once you accept the fact that you are still the father in authority, decide in your heart what you would do in your best judgment that is good for him. If it's jail time, so be it. If it's something else, please do not hesitate to execute on it. You are in authority, not your son! And please let me clarify, authority is not necessarily dictatorship. Authority is the center of influence. Re-establishing trust and friendship may be the first step in regaining back that center of influence, and thus authority.

That's all I have to say. I will be praying for your family. Whatever you decide, I know you have his best interests at heart.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."
~ Matthew 11:28-30

[Fixed]

What weisan said.

[Tony Edwards]

Len:

Thanks for the update - it sounds as though he is at least showing a willingness to help himself. As an attorney myself, I would have suggested at least getting a lawyer involved, because the criminal aspect of this case will likely have collateral effects that will inhibit any recovery, rather than helping.

At this point I think all you can do is what you have done (i.e., make it clear to him your help is available should he elect to take it, and demonstrate a real interest in fixing his own problems). Hopefully he will view this situation as an opportunity to change, rather than an obstacle to continued stupid behavior. In any event you and he have my best wishes.

[OldDog]

Len - I cannot offer anything you do not already know, other than I know what you are going through and how much it is killing you, as our family has / is been there, with a niece who is a 6 year heron addict. It's so very hard to watch your child fall, and not be able to pick them up. Your heart will tell you the right thing to do. God bless you and your family.

[dehoopta]

Len,

I don't have anything else to add, but to tell you my heart goes out to you. You have shown us the warm side of this forum by allowing us to share your burden. Only you know what's right for your son.

You will be in our prayers as will your son.

Thom

[William]

Len,
I am sorry to hear about what you are going through, but I understand it very well. At one point in my life I was in a similar situation to that as your son. Not with DUI's, but similar alcohol problem and scrapes with the law due to brawling....while drunk of course. That's not to say that I didn't drink and drive, I did. I always said I wouldn't, but I did and I thank god that no one was ever hurt.
I can only speak from my own experience and to that of others that I have known. As I'm sure you are aware, as much as you want and need to help, your son will not quit until he is ready to do it himself. There were many times that friends and relatives tried to help me out. And every time I said that I was going to quit, I was done with it etc... Then I would be right back out there again. Sometimes I said it because I just wanted people off my back, other times I felt like I wanted help but settled back into the same routines with the same circle of "friends" that perpetuated my behavior.
It wasn't until I hit rock bottom that I was truly able to level with myself that I really did have a problem and was seriously motivated to do something about it. Rock bottom is different things to different people. For me, it was waking up on a kitchen floor one Christmas morning and looking into the faces of two young daughters of the woman I was dating. I had come in late that night and opened up a bunch of their presents and ate a bunch of the food that was for the Christmas dinner. I ruined their Christmas. I've never felt any lower in my life. Period. That was enough for me to quit right then and there...cold turkey. That was around 1985-86 and I've never been drunk again. I never had another drink until the last year and a half or so. I'll share a pint of Stout with my wife every once and a while. Maybe once or twice a month. I've got too much to lose to go down that road again. I was able to get past it, continue on to college and met my wife and things have turned out for the better.
When I decided that I needed to quit, the hardest part about it was being around my friends with whom I had been drinking with. They wanted to continue drinking and partying and my being around them now made them uncomfortable. If I admitted that I had a problem when I was doing the same thing as them, did that mean they had a problem? They kept trying to get me to drink. "Oh come on, only one, it's not going to hurt you". I kept refusing. Then finally one of my "friends" made the comment, after repeated tries to get me to drink, that I was "boring" and should get drunk to "Have a good time". That's when I cut myself off from the people I had been hanging around with. I was getting no support from them and in actuality they were trying to undermine what I was attempting. Not necessarily overtly, but subconsciously since I represented the fact that they might have a problem too.

I guess the point to my post here is that you need to let your son hit bottom. If you have continually stepped in to help him and he has continued on this path, then it might be time for some tough love. Hopefully as he has said, that this last experience has really scared him and he wants to take responsibility for himself. But if you help him, or a Lawyer bails him out and he continues on his present path, then let the chips fall where they may and ONLY offer to help him if he agrees to go into treatment. Let him know that you love him and that you want to help him, but he has to want to, and agree to help himself first by admitting the problem and seeking help.

I wish you the best and I hope you and your son can work out this out.

William

[Len J]

William:

Thanks for sharing your story.....it helps to reinforce what I know, and hopefully will give me strength to do the right thing.

Len

[JohnS]

Your story sounds almost exactly like me back when I was a Harley rider in the 80's. I got a DUI and it scared me. I ended up getting a new set of friends, also.

[William]

Here is a link to a show that was just on the this past Saturday about a family from the suburbs and their struggle to help their daughter break a heroin habit. After everything they tried and failed with, they resorted to a form of tough love that eventually broke through. It wasn't easy and during that period their daughter did end up in Rikers for a short period (unbeknown to them at the time) of time, but she needed to hit bottom to seek the help she needed.

William

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/8744155/

"A family's struggle against addiction"
Can Carrick Forbes' parents save her from heroin? And will Carrick save herself?

[William]

Your story sounds almost exactly like me back when I was a Harley rider in the 80's. I got a DUI and it scared me. I also ended up getting a new set of friends, also.

JohnS,
I'm happy you made it. Life is so much better now isn't it. :banana:

William

[Climb01742]

len, without going into details, the kid who seems like a f*ck-up at 20-something can sometimes become an ok adult at 50-something. i have nothing intelligent to add to what many others have said, but i hope for the best with your family and can say with strong conviction that the direction of a life isn't necessarily set at 23...thankfully.

[Sandy]

I realize, by reading posts on this thread, that what we often debate about and become very emotional about on this forum, is really about truly insignificant things, almost meaningless in the grand scope of things.

I also realize that you have received some very sensitive and caring responses to a very difficult problem. To choose a course of action for yourself is obviously most difficult to do, and to implement such a course is even more difficult since you have relatively little control of the ultimate outcome.

I genuinely hope that your son will make the proper choices, whatever they are, before he needlessly injures himself and/or others. I would think that he must reach a point at which he realizes that he truly must reach out for help.

You should realize that people on this forum reeally do care about both you, your son, and the rest of your family.


Bless you and your son and family.


Sandy

[Climb01742]

this thread is why this forum is special. if a forum can have karma, this thread makes up for a lot of french threads. i hope ben feels that this kind of thing makes all the headaches of dealing with the forum worthwhile. as sandy said (wlecome back, sand-dude!!) this kinda puts shimano vs campy in perspective, eh?

[BumbleBeeDave]

I agree with others that you are in a difficult spot. No matter what you decide to do, I just still feel that while you may not be able to force the issue beyond a certain point, something must be done to deal with the underlying problem he has of addictive personality. Otherwise he’s just putting emotional band-aids on it. I hope he will realize that and make the commitment to do something about it, no matter what his triggering motivation.

And John . . . “I also ended up getting a new set of friends, also.“ . . . You needed a new set of friends and you ended up with US?!?! You’re either really stupid or really wise and I’m still trying to figure out which! ;) :rolleyes: :beer:

BBDave

[Len J]

I couldn't agree more.

The outpouring as a result of this post has been amazing, not just in the posts themselves but in the coutless PM's and e-mails offering encouragement and support.........I am incredibly grateful.

Feeling very gifted....

Len

[JohnS]

. . . You needed a new set of friends and you ended up with US?!?! You’re either really stupid or really wise and I’m still trying to figure out which! ;) :rolleyes: :beer:
BBDave
Time to go back to drinking... :beer: