My Ti dilemma

[SteveV0983]

Not to hijack a previous Ti thread, but I wanted to start a new one with a fresh outlook on my dilemma. My dilemma is that my closest Serotta dealer is 140 miles away. I'm currently riding a 1993 Colorado tg and really love it, but due to the salt air down here in Florida and the fact that I'll be 50 next year, I thought it was time for something new and Ti is tops on my list. I've ridden a few carbons and just was not impressed enough to buy one. And I guess I like the classic look of a bike better than the modern look of CF, so I thought Ti might be perfect for me based on much of what I've read on this forum.
I do not race and we have no hills so all I want is extreme comfort. Since I love my Colorado so much, I figured a Classique would be a good option (no need to tell me to get a Legend, because the Classique is the absolute top of my range). But the dealer 140 miles away doesn't even have one I can see, never mind ride. So how do you drop 3 grand on a bike that you cannot even ride?
The other strong contender in my book is a Moots (the standard Vamoots) which is the same price +/-. Oddly, my closest Moots dealer is the same place 140 miles away and they don't have one of them to ride either. However, Moots will send a demo bike to my local shop and sell me one through them if I like it. Evidently my local shop has done this a few times in the past and everyone feels as though 140 miles is far enough that no one is stepping on anyone's toes to do the deal.
So that's my dilemma - How do you buy a bike that you cannot ride first?
And secondly, has anyone had any first hand experience comparing a Classique with a Moots?

[oldpotatoe]

Not to hijack a previous Ti thread, but I wanted to start a new one with a fresh outlook on my dilemma. My dilemma is that my closest Serotta dealer is 140 miles away. I'm currently riding a 1993 Colorado tg and really love it, but due to the salt air down here in Florida and the fact that I'll be 50 next year, I thought it was time for something new and Ti is tops on my list. I've ridden a few carbons and just was not impressed enough to buy one. And I guess I like the classic look of a bike better than the modern look of CF, so I thought Ti might be perfect for me based on much of what I've read on this forum.
I do not race and we have no hills so all I want is extreme comfort. Since I love my Colorado so much, I figured a Classique would be a good option (no need to tell me to get a Legend, because the Classique is the absolute top of my range). But the dealer 140 miles away doesn't even have one I can see, never mind ride. So how do you drop 3 grand on a bike that you cannot even ride?
The other strong contender in my book is a Moots (the standard Vamoots) which is the same price +/-. Oddly, my closest Moots dealer is the same place 140 miles away and they don't have one of them to ride either. However, Moots will send a demo bike to my local shop and sell me one through them if I like it. Evidently my local shop has done this a few times in the past and everyone feels as though 140 miles is far enough that no one is stepping on anyone's toes to do the deal.
So that's my dilemma - How do you buy a bike that you cannot ride first?
And secondly, has anyone had any first hand experience comparing a Classique with a Moots?

Well, I don't think you do. If a dealer wants to actually sell a unique in this awash with carbon framed bicycles', market, they gotta have a demo ride.

Even carbon varies wildly, demo rides is essential these days.

BUT for ride quality, it is 100% subjective. Cannot say ti this or that feels like this or that, or somehow different than the other one. Well, you can say it but it might not be the same for you.

I should mention for us, test rides are all day rides, not short, around the block test rides. Ride it where you ride, test rides.

Looks like Classique doesn't exist for 2012, BTW.

[AngryScientist]

Steve - i once thought the way you did, but have revised my thinking entirely.

i feel that test rides really tell you absolutely nothing, other than giving you a feel for what the bike really looks like. often test ride bikes have different components than you will ultimately use, saddle, pedals, etc. short test rides hardly give you the feel for a bike.

at this point i rely heavily on trusted user reviews of frames, and take the rest on faith. you need, really only to be concerned with getting the exact correct geometry for you and making sure the bike fits. the rest is so subjective, it's hardly worth quantifying.

i've bought my last several bikes used as frames, off the interwebs, never having seen them. i knew the geometry and fit was good for me, and jumped in. that's all you can do.

We all know Serotta makes one of the best Ti frames out there, really, you just need to have faith that it will be a great bike, and you know it will. take the time to get the measurements absolutely right and you can rest assured you'll wind up with a winner.

that's my take...

[SteveV0983]

Scientist,
Oddly, I'm less concerned about which of the Ti will be better because I'm not sure I'm good enough to tell the difference. I'm sure they are both great bikes and each has it's pluses and minuses to me. I feel as though either a Classique or a Moots is a good representation of a great Ti bike and, if I liked one, I'd like them both.
I completely agree about the geometry and fit and my local shop was very clear that we would start from scratch getting a good fit and then see which of the bikes may or may not fit me.
My first and foremost concern is that I won't like it any better than my Colorado and, even worse, that I may like it less. I cannot test ride ANY Ti bike from any maker that I can find without a plane ride (which I'm not going to do). I have read the posts here that indicate that Serotta is going to less and less dealers which will make it much more difficult for someone like me to purchase one. I understand their reasons, but that doesn't help me right now.
I'm probably going to get the fit and, if I can fit well onto the Moots, give the loaner a try. The loaner comes with Rival and my dealer would be able to swap out my wheels (I use Ultegra), seat and post, and handlebars and I'd have a pretty good feel of what the frame difference is. So I'm leaning that way.

[SteveV0983]

Looks like Classique doesn't exist for 2012, BTW.

I still see the Classique Ready Custom on the web site, but if it goes away for 2012, I guess the point is moot (no pun intended)

[AngryScientist]

for what it's worth, and as a data point for you:

i rode a Colorado TG for about a year, and scored a used Legend Ti this year. nearly exact same geometry between them. the difference in ride is not subtle at all, the Legend rides worlds better IMO. same bars/stem/wheels/saddle too.

where do you live anyway?

[Chance]

So that's my dilemma - How do you buy a bike that you cannot ride first?

Similar dilemma when buying any true custom? Like stated above how it rides will be very subjective. If custom built you will likely have little idea how it will actually feel to you at time of order.

Trust, faith, reputation, or whatever you want to call it in the builder applies.

[AngryScientist]

Similar dilemma when buying any true custom? Like stated above how it rides will be very subjective. If custom built you will likely have little idea how it will actually feel to you at time of order.

Trust, faith, reputation, or whatever you want to call it in the builder applies.

excellent point - with all of the real custom bikes, people plunk down plenty of $$ for a product that is not yet made, nevermind ridden.

[Ken Robb]

I'd guess that you might be happy with a ti Fierte if you can find one your size.

[tuscanyswe]

Ive bought 2 moots without beeing able to testride them. I was equally happy with both of them, they are incredible bikes imo! I did however have a pretty good idea of what i was buying having ridden more than a couple of other ti bikes.

If you are looking for comfort mostly and you have not ridden Ti before. Why not get a used Ti bike first? If you do you will be able to resell without loosing much cash if any at all if it wasent for you. If you like it tho, you may not even feel the need to exchange it for a new Moots / Serotta etc. Used Ti is still the best buy out there imo.

[rnhood]

I agree with oldpotatoe. Read his post then read it again. I purchased my bike after an all day test ride and its the only way I would buy another. Satisfaction is virtually guaranteed this way. Or at least it greatly minimizes any risk of dissatisfaction. I would never pay several bills for something I could not test out first. But to each their own I reckon.

Look for dealers within a 6 or 8 hour drive, then spend a night. Don't limit yourself on such an important purchase. And unless you know exactly what you want, don't buy used. Get a new one - Moots or Serotta or whatever.

[Aaron O]

Steve - i once thought the way you did, but have revised my thinking entirely.

i feel that test rides really tell you absolutely nothing, other than giving you a feel for what the bike really looks like. often test ride bikes have different components than you will ultimately use, saddle, pedals, etc. short test rides hardly give you the feel for a bike.

at this point i rely heavily on trusted user reviews of frames, and take the rest on faith. you need, really only to be concerned with getting the exact correct geometry for you and making sure the bike fits. the rest is so subjective, it's hardly worth quantifying.

i've bought my last several bikes used as frames, off the interwebs, never having seen them. i knew the geometry and fit was good for me, and jumped in. that's all you can do.

We all know Serotta makes one of the best Ti frames out there, really, you just need to have faith that it will be a great bike, and you know it will. take the time to get the measurements absolutely right and you can rest assured you'll wind up with a winner.

that's my take...

+1...my experience has been that test rides tell me very little. I guess, to me, I'd go in with the assumption that Serotta (or other builders) have been doing this for a long time...making bikes for better riders than me...and make the leap of faith that I'm going to like what I end up with. I made the leap on my custom and couldn't be happier for it...he also taught me I prefer larger frames.

[rpm]

I think the question of a test ride depends on whether you need custom dimensions on your bike. If you need non-stock geometry, you'll need to buy on faith because you want to be able to test a bike that really fits you. I bought my Strong ti that way, and I'm happy with both the fit and performance of the bike. If you can ride stock sizes, then a test would of course be good. Some shops have high-end rentals. You rent the bike for a day or two, and they refund the rental if you buy it.

[AngryScientist]

I agree with oldpotatoe. Read his post then read it again. I purchased my bike after an all day test ride and its the only way I would buy another. Satisfaction is virtually guaranteed this way. Or at least it greatly minimizes any risk of dissatisfaction. I would never pay several bills for something I could not test out first. But to each their own I reckon.

Look for dealers within a 6 or 8 hour drive, then spend a night. Don't limit yourself on such an important purchase. And unless you know exactly what you want, don't buy used. Get a new one - Moots or Serotta or whatever.

with all due respect (and i mean that, i'm not being argumentative) i totally disagree with this. if you limit yourself to bikes that are completely built out and able to ride for hours, that narrows the field down so significantly, you'll easily be throwing out some very viable frames. it also means you will not ever have anything custom made for you.

if the OP likes the ride of a steel serotta, and will get a similar geometry ti serotta that has been fit to his measurements, its pretty likely he'll like what he winds up with. turning your back on a serotta ti because you cant ride it ahead of time is a mistake IMO.

[JayBay]

I'm in the same boat as AngryScientist. I've been on a TG since 95, and just recently scored a 97 Colorado Ti in the same size and geometry as my TG. Trust me - you will notice the difference, and I'm sure you'd be impressed by it. Good Ti rides a lot like good steel - only better.

[konstantkarma]

for what it's worth, and as a data point for you:

i rode a Colorado TG for about a year, and scored a used Legend Ti this year. nearly exact same geometry between them. the difference in ride is not subtle at all, the Legend rides worlds better IMO. same bars/stem/wheels/saddle too.

Agree completely. I own a steel Serotta CSI and a Serotta Ti concours, both the same vintage and both with the same geometry and general set up. The concours is my favorite of the 2. It is lighter, snappier and more comfortable to ride. I am no pro, just a weekend warrior and I can tell the difference, and could do so immediately when I rode the Ti bike for the first time. Ti and Serotta. You can't go wrong!

[nahtnoj]

What sort of process did you go through to buy your current bike?

[StanleySteamer]

I bought 3 used ti bike frames (1999 Serotta Classique, 2000 Moots Vamoots, 2004 Legend St)for around $1000 each. All three bikes were relative bargins for the following reasons: the older bikes have 1" headseats and and the Legend had custom geo that reduced the price. The Moots and Legend frames would be a big upgrade over your current ride. Angry Scientist got an even better deal on his Legend. You don't need to buy a new frame.

[pdxplosif1]

Yep,
thats pretty much the "grail" finding an older Serotta Ti frame in my size. one day....

[AngryScientist]

Angry Scientist got an even better deal on his Legend.

:D

[rugbysecondrow]

Who did your fit for the first bike? If you start with a good fitter, one who understands your needs and purpose, then I think you should have a good product as a result. I would start here and, frankly, drive 140 miles if that meant it was done right. 2 hours in the car is shorter than most rides I take so I would find working with them to be a worthwhile investment for a long term bike purchase.

Serotta, Moots, Bedford, Firefly, Strong...I think they could all build you a great quality TI bike, but it starts with quality inputs.

Not to hijack a previous Ti thread, but I wanted to start a new one with a fresh outlook on my dilemma. My dilemma is that my closest Serotta dealer is 140 miles away. I'm currently riding a 1993 Colorado tg and really love it, but due to the salt air down here in Florida and the fact that I'll be 50 next year, I thought it was time for something new and Ti is tops on my list. I've ridden a few carbons and just was not impressed enough to buy one. And I guess I like the classic look of a bike better than the modern look of CF, so I thought Ti might be perfect for me based on much of what I've read on this forum.
I do not race and we have no hills so all I want is extreme comfort. Since I love my Colorado so much, I figured a Classique would be a good option (no need to tell me to get a Legend, because the Classique is the absolute top of my range). But the dealer 140 miles away doesn't even have one I can see, never mind ride. So how do you drop 3 grand on a bike that you cannot even ride?
The other strong contender in my book is a Moots (the standard Vamoots) which is the same price +/-. Oddly, my closest Moots dealer is the same place 140 miles away and they don't have one of them to ride either. However, Moots will send a demo bike to my local shop and sell me one through them if I like it. Evidently my local shop has done this a few times in the past and everyone feels as though 140 miles is far enough that no one is stepping on anyone's toes to do the deal.
So that's my dilemma - How do you buy a bike that you cannot ride first?
And secondly, has anyone had any first hand experience comparing a Classique with a Moots?

[SteveV0983]

Who did your fit for the first bike?

My current bike was off the floor in Boston in 1993. I now live in Naples Florida, so the past is...well...the past on this one.
I do however have a great local shop with an excellent fitter and trust that he will get me set up right. My hope is that stock geometry works for me and I think it will. My current bike was a 57 stock and it's great.

I guess I'm in the camp of I need to ride it first. Based on how long I keep bikes, I'm assuming this may well be my last new bike and I want to make sure I like it. I feel it is a shame that there is no way for me to ride a Classique short of flying to NY, but it is what it is. The ONLY dealer in all of Florida does not have one for me to see or ride, so I guess I'm stuck unless I want to take a flight. The next closest dealer is 800 miles away in NC, and that "ain't gonna happen".
I also totally agree with the post regarding length of test ride. From what I understand, if I get the loaner from Moots, I can use it for several days on my own with the bike shop as a middleman. If they will go the extra mile to do this and I do in fact like how it rides, I could not possibly see choosing a Classique over the Moots, as much as I have always felt "loyal" to the Serotta brand and have always felt a sense of pride and uniqueness in it. I join in on a few charity rides each year, but ride solo 98% of the time. When I'm on these rides, I constantly get comments on my Serotta. Doesn't matter that it's almost 20 years old, people can tell quality when they see it. I've lived here 11 years and have only ever seen one other Serotta and have never seen a Moots in person. Evidently, all anyone wants down here is CF. I have my choice of Specialized, Pinarello, Guru, Cervelo, Felt, Trek, Cannondale, Giant, Look and Scott. But not a single Ti frame in the bunch.

[Germany_chris]

I don't know if this is any help but..

My Legend rides significantly better than the Master it replaced and they are within a pound of each other.

The ride is softer and stiffer at the same time, I just don't think you'll be displeased with any Ti

[rePhil]

I was in the same position as the original poster. In my case I wanted to try Ti but was hesitant about shelling out big bucks for something I wasn't certain that I would like.. I knew my fit numbers and waited for a used Legend, Seven, Moots, IF etc. to show up. I found a Vamoots compact on this forum. I'll just say It's the one bike I won't ever willingly part with.

[gearguywb]

I have bought several bikes without test rides....particularly custom bikes. It is nice if you can do a test ride, but as others have said, it may/may not tell you anything. One thing that I do now if a test ride is available, is take it for a couple of hour spin with my wheels. The difference a set of wheels makes is amazing. Make sure you are comparing apples to apples.

[slowandsteady]

If the OP LOVES the ride of his curreent, stock geo, steel serotta, why not get the same geometry in a new Ti Serotta? It's pretty likely he'll love what he winds up with.

[SteveV0983]

If the OP LOVES the ride of his curreent, stock geo, steel serotta, why not get the same geometry in a new Ti Serotta? It's pretty likely he'll love what he winds up with.

Unless I went for a Legend, which I cannot afford, the geometry of a new Classique may or may not be similar to my Colorado. The geometry specs on the website are very difficult to decipher, especially when they do not give a virtual level top tube length nor a seat tube length.
By the way, after reading Ben's post from a few weeks ago saying that they are going to reduce models and concentrate towards the GS line, does anyone know if the custom ready options are going away? This would solve my problem because it would rule out a Classique for the most part, which would be a shame.

[Nelson99]

If the OP LOVES the ride of his curreent, stock geo, steel serotta, why not get the same geometry in a new Ti Serotta? It's pretty likely he'll love what he winds up with.

I think this is a very valuable comment, especially as the OP is going to a fitter. It is entirely possible that the changes made to your fit will leave you nonplussed (at least at first). Since you love your current ride, matching that fit should be a priority, unless you are interested in adapting to a new fit for to explore the possibility of currently unrealized advantages.

Personally, I have taken the approach of buying a bunch of used frames in different geometries, building each up, and riding each in rotation (whatever the day seems to call for). Some of the F/F/HS purchases have coat s little as $100 for really great frames (nothing boutique at that price), that have helped me learn a lot about how different bikes handle. One thing I have learned from this is that there may be no one perfect fit for me: some setups work better for some applications than others. My perfect fit even varies with the time or year (early season or late?), how sore I am from whatever I did in the days preceding, etc...

Peter White discusses the horses for courses aspects of fit very well on his website. Everything is a compromise: an ideal race fit may not be your ideal recreational fit etc...

That said, I have learned a variety of things that work better for me during the course of my experimentation, and I hope to some day put these lessons to use in the purchase of a Ti frame. Ti is a superb material that I really love. I've got nothing against steel or carbon (quite like them actually), but Ti is exceptional and has a great timeless feel to it.

Good luck!
:beer:

[rugbysecondrow]

My current bike was off the floor in Boston in 1993. I now live in Naples Florida, so the past is...well...the past on this one.
I do however have a great local shop with an excellent fitter and trust that he will get me set up right. My hope is that stock geometry works for me and I think it will. My current bike was a 57 stock and it's great.

I guess I'm in the camp of I need to ride it first. Based on how long I keep bikes, I'm assuming this may well be my last new bike and I want to make sure I like it. I feel it is a shame that there is no way for me to ride a Classique short of flying to NY, but it is what it is. The ONLY dealer in all of Florida does not have one for me to see or ride, so I guess I'm stuck unless I want to take a flight. The next closest dealer is 800 miles away in NC, and that "ain't gonna happen".
I also totally agree with the post regarding length of test ride. From what I understand, if I get the loaner from Moots, I can use it for several days on my own with the bike shop as a middleman. If they will go the extra mile to do this and I do in fact like how it rides, I could not possibly see choosing a Classique over the Moots, as much as I have always felt "loyal" to the Serotta brand and have always felt a sense of pride and uniqueness in it. I join in on a few charity rides each year, but ride solo 98% of the time. When I'm on these rides, I constantly get comments on my Serotta. Doesn't matter that it's almost 20 years old, people can tell quality when they see it. I've lived here 11 years and have only ever seen one other Serotta and have never seen a Moots in person. Evidently, all anyone wants down here is CF. I have my choice of Specialized, Pinarello, Guru, Cervelo, Felt, Trek, Cannondale, Giant, Look and Scott. But not a single Ti frame in the bunch.

I understand your approach and I think it is prudent. For the price of a new Classique TI you could likely get a custom Bedford or Strong Titanium with Fork. Custom doesn't just mean geometry, it means accounting riding style, braze-ons, built for your weight, wider tires maybe, fenders space etc. You could also have couplers added for extra benefit (a must if you ask me). I really enjoyed working with Kelly, so much so I went back three times, so broadening your scope a bit might help identify some great options other than a stock Serotta or Moots, not that there is anything wrong with them.

Anyway, best of luck and enjoy the process, that is part of the fun.

[AngryScientist]

just putting this out there Steve:

NYC is lovely this time of year. Lots of holiday stuff around to do, the weather isnt brutally cold yet. Bring your family - come see the tree @ Rockefeller. Enjoy yourself - make a trip of it.

take a little detour to Signature or one of the other dealers in the immediate area and check out the bike of your dreams.

[jh_on_the_cape]

My $0.02 is to go through your local shop which has a fitter you are confident in. If they are good, then if you are displeased with a bike they will work with you to swap out a stem, change seat position, etc. to make it all work. If you go 8 hours away and you have some issue with fit or something, you are less likely to deal with it. I know because I drove a long distance to be fitted for a custom bike. I had some questions and they said, "Come on in and we will take care of you" which is great, but I never went back because I don't have time. I should have gone local, or just get a used frame.

I would go to that bike shop and speak with them about what to do and how to best meet your needs. They might have a relationship with a brand and I think that helps to make sure it all works out in the end.

What I would do: Ask the bike shop what they think about you buying a used Ti Serotta, and then having them build it up and fit it to you (for a fee). Then carefully measure your frame and look for something used. Post a wanted ad in the classifieds. You can even have it refinished before building it up and you will have a new bike.

You will save some $$, work with your LBS and be happy! :)

[Kontact]

In todays market, Moots is something of an exception in that they offer a stock Ti bike. Most of the big names in Ti do everything custom, which means that there isn't going to be a test ride, because the bike is built for you.

Most people buying customs from respected builders like their bikes quite a bit. If test rides are required, how did that happen?

That said, the Legend is probably one of the most different riding Ti bikes out there. But I would not expect a huge difference between most of the rest, especially if we are talking straight gauge and normal rider weight.

[SteveV0983]

I would go to that bike shop and speak with them about what to do and how to best meet your needs. They might have a relationship with a brand and I think that helps to make sure it all works out in the end.:)

jh,

This is very important to me because they are both my local shop and part of my community. The fact that Moots is offering to let me get fit, take a test ride, and purchase one through them is, I think, something above and beyond what most others will do. From what I can see, this is my only option for purchasing a Ti bike through my local dealer.

[deechee]

You buy it by meeting someone you can trust.

I drive almost 400miles and go through a border to see Paul Levine. I never "test" rode a Serotta and I ordered one through him because I trusted him. Find a fitter you trust and go with their opinion.

[Dan Le foot]

Hi Steve.
I have had 2 Legends and one of the old Classiques (around 1999).
Recently I decided to get rid of my plastic bikes and go all ti in the stable.
I considered Ericksen, Kish, Moots, Seven and Serotta.
These are all well tuned bikes and I would seriously doubt I could tell the difference among this group with same geometry.
I ended up getting a Seven Ti s because of the price point ($2700, custom fit included) and the brushed finish. (I don’t care for the dull, matt finish) I also like the logo and head badge. :hello:
Good luck.
Dan

[oldpotatoe]

[QUOTE=SteveV0983]""From what I understand, if I get the loaner from Moots, I can use it for several days on my own with the bike shop as a middleman. If they will go the extra mile to do this and I do in fact like how it rides, I could not possibly see choosing a Classique over the Moots""

Sounds like a good plan. Don't think you will disappointed with the Moots(very bias as I have one, and sell a lot of them). I have ridden many ti frames, Lynskey, Serotta, Litespeed, Seven, Dean and I really love the ride of my Moots.

[jerome]

You can't get wrong with either.
I will pick the Moots, a CR.

It is a wonderful bicycle and you can only be too happy with it.
no mistake possible

take a stock frame that will suit you for no surprise and your investment will be secure.

and the day you will resell it, it will be much easier.


believe me.