A peek into 2012 Serotta line up....fess up RedRider

[Smiley]

Com on Red tell us what the new skinny will look like. Inquiring minds want to know.

[RedRider]

When Serotta is ready to announce the 2012 line up it will be posted here, in the Forum, right away. I can give you a teaser...due to the great interest in travel bikes... Il Viaggio will be introduced, a full titanium frame with tubing specifically engineered for couplers.

[EDS]

Let's hope the 2012 line-up will get posted here because we all know it won't be up on the website until deep into 2012 . . . :banana:

[RedRider]

Let's hope the 2012 line-up will get posted here because we all know it won't be up on the website until deep into 2012 . . .

The new website is in Beta now and will launch before the New Year. Like the model line it will be more straightforward, cleaner and focus on what Serotta does... build the world's best bicycles.

[jpw]

The new website is in Beta now and will launch before the New Year. Like the model line it will be more straightforward, cleaner and focus on what Serotta does... build the world's best bicycles.

In Beta? Normally a carefully selected group get exclusive invites to test a Beta website before it goes general public.

[jpw]

Il Viaggio will be introduced,....with tubing specifically engineered for couplers.

Does this hint at double butted titanium tubing?

[RedRider]

Here are the 2012 Serotta models;
Road-
MeiVici AE
MeiVici SE
Ottrott SE
Legend SE
Coeur d'Acier SE
HSG Super Comp - Ready-To-Ride
Travel, S&S Couplers -
Il Viaggio
MTB
Max iT w/o fork 26 or 29
TiMax w/o fork 26 or 29
All models have a $200 increase over 2011 and include Peace of Mind Crash Protection.
The 2011 paint colors were very successful and will remain unchanged for 2012
Options available will include Pave, internal routing for electric, canti bosses on metal stays.

[RedRider]

More details will follow as the new website goes public.

[tv_vt]

I am so glad I got a Fierte when I did! RIP...

[jbedker]

does this mean there will be no Classique Ti in the 2012 line?

[Elefantino]

I understand the AE/SE for the MeiVici, but if there are only single models offered for the Ottrott, Legend and CDA, why the "SE"?

SE, as opposed to, what?

I am not a marketing executive, I don't play one on TV and I didn't stay at at a Holiday Inn Express last night, but this puzzles me.

[ergott]

Bottom line, take pictures of the new bikes like this.
http://www.embrocationmagazine.com/img/corsa_hero_625.JPG

Drool inspiring. Even if 80% of the bikes have tall headtubes and short top tubes doesn't mean you have to make the site pics look like them. Show the ideal not the compromise.

Oh, yeah, if you plan on selling cyclocross bikes, put a picture of an actual cyclocross bike on the site. :crap:

<IMG>http://bikereviews.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/2011-speedvagen-cross-bike.jpg</IMG>

Nothing on the site makes me want to buy a new Serotta even though I know they are amazing bikes.

http://ergottwheels.smugmug.com/Sports/The-bikes/MG3913/820237877_FAkz4-XL.jpg

:beer:

[Gothard]

+1 Elefantino.
K I S S
Keep It Simple, Stupid

Meaning I am the stupid one, and don't want to study/read up/try to understand.

"Here we have the Ottrott, available either from the std sizing as per this chart, or fully custom. We measure you up, and send the factory your measures. They build the bike for you in X weeks".

The customer needs to know at a glance the hierarchy and not worry how it will be built. Either he knows what measures he needs and fits a std, or gets custom measured.

The factory needs an order, with a set of measures, or a std sizing.

K I S S

[jpw]

Here are the 2012 Serotta models;
Road-
MeiVici AE
MeiVici SE
Ottrott SE
Legend SE
Coeur d'Acier SE
HSG Super Comp - Ready-To-Ride
Travel, S&S Couplers -
Il Viaggio
MTB
Max iT w/o fork 26 or 29
TiMax w/o fork 26 or 29
All models have a $200 increase over 2011 and include Peace of Mind Crash Protection.
The 2011 paint colors were very successful and will remain unchanged for 2012
Options available will include Pave, internal routing for electric, canti bosses on metal stays.

The HSG Ready-To-Ride...will be in major sloper geo only I assume(?).

As has been said, why bother to continue with the 'SE' moniker? I peeled my sticker off.

[nahtnoj]

Drool inspiring. Even if 80% of the bikes have tall headtubes and short top tubes doesn't mean you have to make the site pics look like them. Show the ideal not the compromise.



Amen.

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=851100&postcount=16

Note the next 3 responses were telling me that I can get whatever I want. Yeah, exactly, and it won't be a Serotta, given that they don't seem interested in building what I want to ride.

[SPOKE]

Amen.

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=851100&postcount=16

Note the next 3 responses were telling me that I can get whatever I want. Yeah, exactly, and it won't be a Serotta, given that they don't seem interested in building what I want to ride.


I'm not a fan of the marketing stuff that our host has put out over the past several years either but if it's a "racy" look you want they will build it for you.....as long as their chosen method of construction and materials they build with meets your desires.
Saying that Serrota doesnt seem interested in building what you want to ride just isn't a fair claim.

[ergott]

I've seen several examples of all out racer-boy Serottas in person and in the galleries. They are far more inspiring to look at. Serottas are cutting edge race bikes. Make them look the part, that's all.

More examples.
http://s7d5.scene7.com/is/image/Specialized/9562?$Display$
http://cdn.cannondale.com/catalog/category/550X550/c_12_2rseud_ult_2.png
http://www.cervelo.com/i/bikes/2012/S2/S2-690-380.jpg

[c-record]

Ok, that black C-dale looks bad! (good)

[oldpotatoe]

Amen.

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=851100&postcount=16

Note the next 3 responses were telling me that I can get whatever I want. Yeah, exactly, and it won't be a Serotta, given that they don't seem interested in building what I want to ride.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXQ_8e63wmE&feature=related

Geeezz..ya better get a PM over this 'un....

[pjmsj21]

[QUOTE=RedRider]Here are the 2012 Serotta models;

All models have a $200 increase over 2011 and include Peace of Mind Crash Protection.


Is this a $200 increase over the increase that we saw in mid 2011? If so I think as much as I love my Serotta and the company, I will find it pretty difficult to purchase another new one in the future.

[michael white]

ok

[Dan Le foot]

Amen.

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=851100&postcount=16

Note the next 3 responses were telling me that I can get whatever I want. Yeah, exactly, and it won't be a Serotta, given that they don't seem interested in building what I want to ride.
Now that's kinda harsh

[nahtnoj]

Guys -

I have nearly 1,000 posts on this forum. I used to own an Atlanta, and I owned a Yo Eddy that was made in Saratoga. Of course I know that Serotta can build anything that I want.

But - I'm here. What is Serotta doing to attract a 30 year old who is otherwise spending 5-8K on a stock carbon bike? What differentiates the brand in a quick scan of the website? I would argue very little.

The hypothetical me is only vaguely aware that Serotta exists.

[Smiley]

Here are the 2012 Serotta models;
Road-
MeiVici AE
MeiVici SE
Ottrott SE
Legend SE
Coeur d'Acier SE
HSG Super Comp - Ready-To-Ride
Travel, S&S Couplers -
Il Viaggio
MTB
Max iT w/o fork 26 or 29
TiMax w/o fork 26 or 29
All models have a $200 increase over 2011 and include Peace of Mind Crash Protection.
The 2011 paint colors were very successful and will remain unchanged for 2012
Options available will include Pave, internal routing for electric, canti bosses on metal stays.

Seems pretty simple fellows, all bikes have a $200 increase WHICH includes the crash protection as standard.

The only ready custom is the HSG all else is CUSTOM made to order which is what Ben said in his blog.

[SPOKE]

Guys -

I have nearly 1,000 posts on this forum. I used to own an Atlanta, and I owned a Yo Eddy that was made in Saratoga. Of course I know that Serotta can build anything that I want.

But - I'm here. What is Serotta doing to attract a 30 year old who is otherwise spending 5-8K on a stock carbon bike? What differentiates the brand in a quick scan of the website? I would argue very little.

The hypothetical me is only vaguely aware that Serotta exists.

Ok....you like molded style carbon bikes. The closest thing that Serotta offers that has the general "look" of a molded carbon frame is the Meivici AE. Like i posted earlier you seem to like a different "look" and/or construction method than Serotta chooses to make......It's not that they wouldn't like to build you a bike.
The differentiation is that Serotta uses construction methods and materials that may not appeal to you. Nothing wrong with that.....it's just not a good match for your desires. It doesn't mean that Serotta builds a bad product. :beer:

[SamIAm]

I would like to see Serotta subtract about 2k from their pricing rather than add 200.

[SPOKE]

I would like to see Serotta subtract about 2k from their pricing rather than add 200.

I agree....probably why i've decided to take th money I'd spend on a new Meivici and buy the stuff needed to build my own frames. I have the welding stuff now. Next purchase is the frame jig from Anvil :banana:

[nahtnoj]

Ok....you like molded style carbon bikes. The closest thing that Serotta offers that has the general "look" of a molded carbon frame is the Meivici AE. Like i posted earlier you seem to like a different "look" and/or construction method than Serotta chooses to make......It's not that they wouldn't like to build you a bike.
The differentiation is that Serotta uses construction methods and materials that may not appeal to you. Nothing wrong with that.....it's just not a good match for your desires. It doesn't mean that Serotta builds a bad product. :beer:

I'm not talking about myself.

I'm talking about the typical buyer my age, who is reaching the point in their life where they have some money to spend. This buyer shops almost exclusively on the web, and a company has about 30 seconds to convey a compelling message or they move on.

Serotta is doing almost nothing to attract this generation of buyers. It should be in Serotta's interests to demonstrate an ability to "match the desires" of younger buyers with disposable income. The products as shown on their website put Serotta in an uncompetitive position vis-a-vis companies like Cannondale and Cervelo.

[Jason E]

Wow. I am surprised by that lineup. I expected more freshness. Of course it is just rumor until the launch.

Since no one asked;

I am amazed the AE made the cut. The Meivici is the true flagship, and by scrapping the AE that money could be dedicated to other items rather than a $9,000 (FRAME ONLY SHEESH) that is outdated in this fickle market of tech... Or update it....

Also, and I love mine, but I was not expecting the Ottrott to make the cut. I always thought it was a perfectly executed gap-filler for the time between when high end builders could not make full carbon and could. Once the Meivici came out I've been waiting for the Meivici-->HSG-ish Meivici-->Legend Ti to be the order.

Trim the top, spend a little more on the entry. Bring back an Atlanta-esque model, or at least a nice steel and Ti frame that is price competitive with peers. Serotta has been halo for a long time, but money is in getting a frame and fork custom for $3k with a great name, build, and paint.

Whatever.

[BCS]

6K for Serotta's only Ti offering? This could get ugly. I love high end stuff and have dropped serious cash on unnecessary gear over the years but this is so out of touch with the competitors pricing. It makes me sad

[SPOKE]

I'm not talking about myself.

I'm talking about the typical buyer my age, who is reaching the point in their life where they have some money to spend. This buyer shops almost exclusively on the web, and a company has about 30 seconds to convey a compelling message or they move on.

Serotta is doing almost nothing to attract this generation of buyers. It should be in Serotta's interests to demonstrate an ability to "match the desires" of younger buyers with disposable income. The products as shown on their website put Serotta in an uncompetitive position vis-a-vis companies like Cannondale and Cervelo.

Serotta builds custom frames/forks. Even the "ready custom" versions are built in a similar fashion as the custom frames. Serotta doesn't even pretend to be like the Cannondale/Cervelo's of the bike industry. Once again...what Serotta builds isn't for everyone. Going thru the process to get a frame/bike custom built isn't for every one.

[WickedWheels]

Here are the 2012 Serotta models;
Road-
MeiVici AE
MeiVici SE
Ottrott SE
Legend SE
Coeur d'Acier SE
HSG Super Comp - Ready-To-Ride
Travel, S&S Couplers -
Il Viaggio
MTB
Max iT w/o fork 26 or 29
TiMax w/o fork 26 or 29
All models have a $200 increase over 2011 and include Peace of Mind Crash Protection.
The 2011 paint colors were very successful and will remain unchanged for 2012
Options available will include Pave, internal routing for electric, canti bosses on metal stays.

A marketing failure, if you ask me (which of course no one did).

Focus the line-up to only a few models, but offer options within them. Keep it simple. For example:

Meivici (to represent full carbon)
Legend (to represent full ti)
Coeur D'Acier (to represent steel)

Offer the Meivic in AE/SE, but keep the name the same.
Offer the Legend in full ti, ST stays, carbon top/down tubes, but keep the name the same.
Offer the CDA with or without ST, keep the name the same.

The advantages are the following...
1. Simpler, more focused marketing
2. Easier sales for a dealer due to less confusion for the customer
3. Lower entry price-points listed for the bikes, hence more initial interest (even if you get the with the price on the upgrades)

I know that this has been discussed before, but I am surprised that not much changed.

Also... Coeur D'Acier is a horrible name. Go back to "Colorado" to hint at the racing heritage and appeal to people that don't want to learn French. You're an American company so be proud of it.

I agree with the comments on presentation. Anyone considering custom is aware of Serotta and it's ability to build a long head tube. Make the new cyclist/potential racer aware of Serotta. Ferrari's are much more coveted than Rolls Royce, so try to appeal to the same emotional response.

Also, focus on provide information on the quality of the build. Add some sense of "soul" and "depth" to a company that the website currently doesn't provide. Perhaps focus on some employees. Explain who Ben Serotta is in better detail.

If interested, I'm available as a consultant.

[jpw]

Is this an interim position?

My understanding from this forum is that Serotta suffered a near collapse in orders this year, down by +60%. I can't see this lineup and price points helping to change things for the better.

[AngryScientist]

Options available will include Pave, internal routing for electric, canti bosses on metal stays.

whats the Pave option? provision for wider tires maybe?

[Climb01742]

I would like to see Serotta subtract about 2k from their pricing rather than add 200.

ditto.

[AngryScientist]

6K for Serotta's only Ti offering? This could get ugly. I love high end stuff and have dropped serious cash on unnecessary gear over the years but this is so out of touch with the competitors pricing. It makes me sad

if it wasn't clear before - it is now - i am totally priced out of the market for a new Serotta. fortunately, the used market for Ti. frames is excellent for buyers, and they essentially last forever.

[Smiley]

if it wasn't clear before - it is now - i am totally priced out of the market for a new Serotta. fortunately, the used market for Ti. frames is excellent for buyers, and they essentially last forever.


Yeah when you can buy a Legend Ti frameset for $350 that was in near perfect condition I'd say U did OK :)

[AngryScientist]

Yeah when you can buy a Legend Ti frameset for $350 that was in near perfect condition I'd say U did OK :)

yes sir!

i've put quite a few miles on it now too, what an excellent frame.

[topher]

I'm also in the early 30's age group who likes to spend a lot of money on bikes.

I don't know if I like the comparison to cervelo, specialized, cannondale, etc... I am not in the market for mass produced bikes anymore. I want to ride something unique, and special. I don't require custom, because I have had excellent luck with standard geometries. However, I do believe that for the discerning cyclists out there who have the money to burn on a boutique frame, there are a lot of choices, and Serotta does have to compete with them. You can get a Parlee Z5 frame for under 5k. That's a lot of money, but it is roughly 4k less than than the Meivici SE! Even Parlee's flagship Z1 is 2k less than the Meivici, as is the colnago EPS (not that that is a boutique frame). I just don't see Serotta competing with that at all. On the Ti side, a top of the line Moots RSL is over 1k less than Serotta's single Ti offering. These are only two examples - with the perhaps the exception of Passoni and Baum, I bet virtually every other Ti frame builder in the country is charging much less.

I don't see how Serotta can survive on only top-end offerings that aren't price competitive with so many other choices in the boutique frame market.

Chris

[rugbysecondrow]

Unsolicited advice, Serotta, please work on your message.
From the website: Crash Protection Program Service to the new Serotta Customer: Cost $295

So, there is actually net savings to the prudent shopper of $95...prices, it could be argued, declined some to help secure the high end purchase and investment made by going through Serotta. Saying there is a $200 increase might be correct, but not the best message.

That aside, Simplifying the lineup is great. Focusing their brand is great, doing this was going to cut some folks out, which is a reality of life. Not everybody will or can own a Bentley, so Serotta is not going to be the every-mans bike...so be it.

Offer the BEST customer service. The BEST product. The BEST website with ACCURATE information. EASY to navigate. The MOST responsive staff. FAST email, phone follow-up. Be there when your high-end clients need you and they will tell others. Make it easy for customers to see prices, styles, photos etc. Flub this up, and then you are just charging high prices for nice bikes with average service...not a winning formula.

Serotta can do it and I am excited to see how it unfolds.

[deechee]

I'm happy the Coeur D'acier will still be available and I think the name is very appropriate. Colorado honestly doesn't mean anything to me. But I'm also Canadian.

I'm also impressed that the TiMax continue to live on.
After revisiting mtn biking last year I picked up a hardtail but I definitely miss my dual suspension. There's still something magical about a hardtail, and a TiMax is definitely something to lust over whenever I win the lottery. I just hope I can buy it before it disappears.

[ergott]

The purposes of me putting up pictures of Cervelo, Cannondale and Specialized is simple to show how awesome bikes can look. Those pictures sell bikes. They give the appearance of speed. It doesn't matter if a rider ends up putting a 9cm stem on with 3cm of spacers under it.

[PaMtbRider]

A marketing failure, if you ask me (which of course no one did).


Also... Coeur D'Acier is a horrible name. Go back to "Colorado" to hint at the racing heritage and appeal to people that don't want to learn French. You're an American company so be proud of it.


+1 I think Fierte is also a horrible name.
I see Serottas' main competition as the small custom builder. If I had to replace my Ottrott I would be shopping Carl Strong, Tom Kellogg... not Specialized or Cannondale.

[RedRider]

Without quoting all the constructive comments, many of your suggestions are already in the works.
I posted the 2012 model line here on the Forum to keep members updated asap. Yes, a new website will be launched soon. Yes, the Serotta message is being carefully tuned to reach our target market but the elevator pitch is simple...We build the best bikes in the world.
If you are comparing any Serotta model to a ready built frame from a big manufacturer, regardless of price or component package, our message is not clear.
I will continue to keep the Forum updated as we look forward to an exciting 2012 - the 40th Anniversary of Serotta bicycles.

[Dan Le foot]

Serotta is doing almost nothing to attract this generation of buyers. It should be in Serotta's interests to demonstrate an ability to "match the desires" of younger buyers with disposable income. The products as shown on their website put Serotta in an uncompetitive position vis-a-vis companies like Cannondale and Cervelo.
Serotta doesn't want to. With a higher qualty product that is made in the USA they simply can't compete on price.
IMO Serotta lost its way a number of years ago by trying to be all things to all people. The Brand was hurt because of this. Companies like Moots, Seven and other niche players stuck to what they did best, kept overhead down and continued to be successful.
I think Serotta's new business strategy is spot on.
Dan

[dan_hudson]

I'm also impressed that the TiMax continue to live on.
After revisiting mtn biking last year I picked up a hardtail but I definitely miss my dual suspension. There's still something magical about a hardtail, and a TiMax is definitely something to lust over whenever I win the lottery. I just hope I can buy it before it disappears.

+1

I'd also add (again) that a full Colorado Ti MTB would be nice to see return to the catalog. Perhaps even as a replacement of the carbon tubed model. At this price point, be nice to see an in-house Serotta finishing kit across the line (disc mount, dropouts et al) as well vs standard items out of the PMW catalog.

[happycampyer]

I'm also in the early 30's age group who likes to spend a lot of money on bikes.

I don't know if I like the comparison to cervelo, specialized, cannondale, etc... I am not in the market for mass produced bikes anymore. I want to ride something unique, and special. I don't require custom, because I have had excellent luck with standard geometries. However, I do believe that for the discerning cyclists out there who have the money to burn on a boutique frame, there are a lot of choices, and Serotta does have to compete with them. You can get a Parlee Z5 frame for under 5k. That's a lot of money, but it is roughly 4k less than than the Meivici SE! Even Parlee's flagship Z1 is 2k less than the Meivici, as is the colnago EPS (not that that is a boutique frame). I just don't see Serotta competing with that at all. On the Ti side, a top of the line Moots RSL is over 1k less than Serotta's single Ti offering. These are only two examples - with the perhaps the exception of Passoni and Baum, I bet virtually every other Ti frame builder in the country is charging much less.

I don't see how Serotta can survive on only top-end offerings that aren't price competitive with so many other choices in the boutique frame market.

Chris I’m not going to make any apologies for Serotta’s pricing, because I do think that Serotta has earned a certain stigma for its high prices. It’s just that, when the comparisons are made on an apples-to-apples basis, the differences in those prices are not as wide as folklore would have it.

The Parlee Z5 is a great frame, but it is a stock frame made in Asia (not that there’s anything wrong with that, but that does influence its price-point). The better comparison is not to the MeiVici SE, but rather to the HSG Ready Custom, which is currently priced in the high $4K range.

Regarding the price of the Parlee Z1 vs. the MeiVici, it’s true that the MeiVici costs more, but the difference is around $700, or at least that’s what it was last spring when I was working with Signature Cycles on a custom frame (and Signature is a dealer in both brands).

The Colnago EPS is also a bit of apples and oranges, since it is a stock frame. A custom EPS would cost a lot more (if it could even be done given its construction method). Note that a Cervelo R5 is a stock frame that costs even more than a MeiVici or a Z1. I would argue that the better comparison for the EPS or the R5 is either the HSG or the Z5 (the latter especially for the gram counter).

Regarding the RSL, the price for a stock frame and fork is $4,650. However, iirc from having a custom RSL built, the upcharge for custom is $650, so a custom RSL is $5,300. The Legend SE is about $700 more (and it comes with an F3 fork, which is made in the US, comes in different stiffnesses, etc.). I happened to be drawn to certain features of the RSL more (BB30, etc.), but I could see why someone else would prefer a Legend over the RSL (just as I ended up choosing the MeiVici over the Z1, as I have described elsewhere).

[djg]

I've seen several examples of all out racer-boy Serottas in person and in the galleries. They are far more inspiring to look at. Serottas are cutting edge race bikes. Make them look the part, that's all.

More examples.
http://s7d5.scene7.com/is/image/Specialized/9562?$Display$
http://cdn.cannondale.com/catalog/category/550X550/c_12_2rseud_ult_2.png
http://www.cervelo.com/i/bikes/2012/S2/S2-690-380.jpg

I dunno. The Canny looks hot. The Specialzzz looks like it wants to be as ugly as a DeRosa Tango, but lacks the courage. Not sure about the Cervelo -- might be cool if there's a 3D version of it. None of 'em is a complete bike without pedals. And your own darn bike looks way better than at least 2 of those 3.

[pdmtong]

serotta does not have to be price competitive. but, what they have to do is articulate the difference either factual or aura. we've all gone through the tired rapha discussion. guess what, people are willing to pay the higher prices for fact or perception. as happy said, the delta's arent that far off, but in most cases they are indeed higher. IN 2012 I see no reason to sell the ottrott. but, I can also say that my ottrott is a GREAT bike. people have choices but few can go to a $5k well multiple times. the website does nothing to conjure the image of why I should go to that well.

I bought my ottrott used after staring at the $10k ottrotts inside City Cycle for years. Yeesh...those bikes were $10k even back then, they had to be good, right? so I sold my calfee luna and took a leap of faith and jumped in the deep end of the pool ... it remains the bike I use for centuries and long days in the saddle. sometimes I think it needs ot be the first to go to "thin the herd" and as I've said before, I am quickly reminded how sublime the ride is when I get back on it.

for the uninitiated, serotta list is a pile of benjamins. other uber-bikes have a broad aura...serotta need to remind folks what theirs is and put an exclamation point on it.

[happycampyer]

IN 2012 I see no reason to sell the ottrott.<snip> It's funny, I was going to add a note above in response to Jason E's similar comment, just to say that I was happy to see that the Ottrott is still in the line-up. While the notion persists that the "integrated technology" bikes (the Ottrott, the IF XS and the Seven Elium) were a "gap-filler for the time between when high end builders could not make full [custom] carbon and could," as Jason E put it, I think that these bikes remain unique and have a place in the current market (note that Seven has even introduced a new "IT" model, the 622). As I mentioned elsewhere, I came this <> close to getting an Ottrott when I decided on the MeiVici (and have actually since picked up a used Ottrott in my size which I'd probably ride more if I hadn't put Di2 on it).

If I understand RedRider's post correctly, I think it's a great idea that the Pave option is available across the line (MeiVici, Ottrott and Legend). An Ottrott Pave would be a very cool bike.

[Climb01742]

serotta does not have to be price competitive. but, what they have to do is articulate the difference either factual or aura.

history seems to be arguing against both clauses of your argument. serotta's recent sales history suggests that their pricing isn't working in the market. and their marketing message for the last several years suggests either an inability or disinterest in trying to communicate a coherent brand rationale.

what is, i believe, demonstratively true is that serotta builds great bikes.

what is still to be seen is whether in a radically changed economy since 2008 there is a market large enough for what serotta makes to support the sales volume they need to be viable. what's most frustrating, from the outside, is that both issues -- pricing and marketing communications -- seem self-inflicted, and for the serotta brand to vanish would be enormously sad, particularly from self-inflicted wounds. how many more chances will they get to get it right?

[RedRider]

I think it's a great idea that the Pave option is available across the line (MeiVici, Ottrott and Legend). An Ottrott Pave would be a very cool bike.[/QUOTE]


The Ottrott SE was a top seller for 2011 and with the popularity of Gran Fondo style events and rides such as D2R2 the interest is expected to continue. The Pave option with clearance for wider tires and fenders is becoming popular.

[Smiley]

The BEST riding all around frame in the Serotta line up and IF any client approached me to ask WHICH bike to buy I'd point them in this direction.

Apply's Carbon where it is best suited and Titanium where is works best. GREAT price point too. For a guy that is not wholly into Carbon this would work for me too.

Great points about Serotta using its website better to educate the masses to the differences of the product and I guess with less of a retail presence that this thought does not escape Ben and company.

[oldpotatoe]

The BEST riding all around frame in the Serotta line up and IF any client approached me to ask WHICH bike to buy I'd point them in this direction.

Apply's Carbon where it is best suited and Titanium where is works best. GREAT price point too. For a guy that is not wholly into Carbon this would work for me too.

Great points about Serotta using its website better to educate the masses to the differences of the product and I guess with less of a retail presence that this thought does not escape Ben and company.

Website only goes so far, IMHO. Retail presence is essential for this type of product. Particularly with the emphasis on custom. Alas, that doesn't seem the direction Serotta is going, as has been mentioned.

The best a bike shop is going to do if the brand is direct in that bike shop's 'area' is give a neutral, 'don't really know' type response. At worse, a bike shop will denegrate the brand because Serotta sees a bike shop as an unnecessary 'bump' in the buying process.

See Fondriest and their attempt to be direct only...about a decade ago.

[Fixed]

i was talking to a young bike shop owner
at a pub the other night
i asked what ti brands he liked
he said moots and firefly
i pointed at my hat ( blue 35 year serotta )
and said these guys make a pretty good one too
he said no they make great steel bikes ..
i didn't argue the point with him .
cheers

[Smiley]

I would bet a Happy Meal that Serotta will expand the Fit Studio concept to local independant fitters THAT THEY KNOW really well around the country. This will allow them to sell in a special and unique way. Don't under estimate the contacts that Serotta has made over decades of selling bikes.

I can tell you that I am pretty independant and have SOLD for K Bedford no less than 20 frames in 2.5 years.....consider the fact that I have no website and do not advertise aside from word to mouth. Why couldn't Serotta do something similar?? Just saying :banana:

[jpw]

I would bet a Happy Meal that Serotta will expand the Fit Studio concept to local independant fitters THAT THEY KNOW really well around the country. This will allow them to sell in a special and unique way. Don't under estimate the contacts that Serotta has made over decades of selling bikes.

I can tell you that I am pretty independant and have SOLD for K Bedford no less than 20 frames in 2.5 years.....consider the fact that I have no website and do not advertise aside from word to mouth. Why could Serotta no do something similar?? Just saying :banana:

So a word-of-mouth network effect, bubbling along quite nicely thank you very much Mr. Marketing Guru (we don't need you)? An interesting strategy in the age of the online social network, but brave too.

Serotta seems to be in a race to the top. There are few people to be found at the summit of Everest.

[pdmtong]

history seems to be arguing against both clauses of your argument. serotta's recent sales history suggests that their pricing isn't working in the market. and their marketing message for the last several years suggests either an inability or disinterest in trying to communicate a coherent brand rationale.

what is, i believe, demonstratively true is that serotta builds great bikes.

what is still to be seen is whether in a radically changed economy since 2008 there is a market large enough for what serotta makes to support the sales volume they need to be viable. what's most frustrating, from the outside, is that both issues -- pricing and marketing communications -- seem self-inflicted, and for the serotta brand to vanish would be enormously sad, particularly from self-inflicted wounds. how many more chances will they get to get it right?

we are in agreement. I'll rephrase my statement from "serotta does not have to be price competitive. but, what they have to do is articulate the difference either factual or aura." to "serotta either has to become price competitive or they have to do a better job articulating the difference either factual or aura."

so yes I concur with your statement that the issues are price and marketing intertwined

[pdmtong]

It's funny, I was going to add a note above in response to Jason E's similar comment, just to say that I was happy to see that the Ottrott is still in the line-up. While the notion persists that the "integrated technology" bikes (the Ottrott, the IF XS and the Seven Elium) were a "gap-filler for the time between when high end builders could not make full [custom] carbon and could," as Jason E put it, I think that these bikes remain unique and have a place in the current market (note that Seven has even introduced a new "IT" model, the 622). As I mentioned elsewhere, I came this <> close to getting an Ottrott when I decided on the MeiVici (and have actually since picked up a used Ottrott in my size which I'd probably ride more if I hadn't put Di2 on it).

If I understand RedRider's post correctly, I think it's a great idea that the Pave option is available across the line (MeiVici, Ottrott and Legend). An Ottrott Pave would be a very cool bike.

I think that for the ottrott to continue to exist serotta must be more emphatic about why this bike is in the line up, and not just becasue it used to be the top of the line. performance-comfort? roubaix sl3 is killing that category. pave? I cant comment since we dont have that kind of riding here.

60% plunge in orders? yikes

[mike p]

IMHO Serotta needs to get back to it's roots....race bikes! Colorado II, Colorado III, Classique, CSI, CRL, and the old Level TT Ledgend and at least a couple of those have to be afordable to your average income weekend racer! Price is king and while Serotta makes a fine bike there are many fine bikes out there for a LOT less! Serotta needs to take a step back and figure how they made it big, how they got where they are now and figure out a stratagy for the future or I fear they won't be around alot longer and that would be a shame.
I've owned quite a few Serotta"s currently just two, a CRL and a classique. They've been some of my all time favorite bikes, but I can't imagine ever buying another new Serotta. To many great bikes out there for way less.
Quality.Performance.Image.Price.
Serotta...wake up and smell the coffee...please

Mike

[Climb01742]

"serotta either has to become price competitive or they have to do a better job articulating the difference either factual or aura."

:beer:

and i sincerely hope they do. serotta has a unique place in american cycling history. may they have a unique, and profitable, place in american cycling's future.

[oldpotatoe]

I would bet a Happy Meal that Serotta will expand the Fit Studio concept to local independant fitters THAT THEY KNOW really well around the country. This will allow them to sell in a special and unique way. Don't under estimate the contacts that Serotta has made over decades of selling bikes.

I can tell you that I am pretty independant and have SOLD for K Bedford no less than 20 frames in 2.5 years.....consider the fact that I have no website and do not advertise aside from word to mouth. Why couldn't Serotta do something similar?? Just saying :banana:

Well, they could but Serotta is what, 6-7 times larger than Bedford or some other small, one person builder. Once again, Bedford, Kirk, etc and Serotta is apples and oranges. Serotta is more like Moots, IF, Seven and I doubt they would be successful at consumer direct.

Does Serotta want to sell 1000+ frames per year? Then I doubt a few( a dozen, more) independent fitters will be able to do that. Say 20 independent fitters, that's 50 frames each...don't see that.

If they want to be at the 100-300 frames a year, perhaps, but the new factory was for a rate of approaching 2000 frames per year. I'd say they need a dealer network to do that...sure, I'll take that bet.

[zap]

I can tell you that I am pretty independant and have SOLD for K Bedford no less than 20 frames in 2.5 years.....consider the fact that I have no website and do not advertise aside from word to mouth. Why couldn't Serotta do something similar?? Just saying :banana:

You sold quite a few Serotta's in the D.C. metro area over the years too.

Agree with other poster(s). Serotta needs to get into the racing scene. Young one's believe Serotta's are for well.........you know...........let's just say the not so fast crowd.

[RedRider]

I posted the 2012 Serotta models here to keep Forum members updated on the latest from Saratoga Springs. I did notwant to start an open debate about the Company's marketing/sales strategy.
Most of you "get it". The message has not been clear to the customer. That message is being refined and will express who and what Serotta represents.

[SteveV0983]

I find this sad. My post from yesterday about "My Ti dilemma" seems to have reached an end. Since Serotta no longer offers a Ti that I could possibly afford, I guess I no longer have a dilemma.
Oh well, I'll always have my trusty Colorado tg which evidently is the only Serotta I will ever own.

[jpw]

I find this sad. My post from yesterday about ""My Ti dilemma" seems to have reached an end. Since Serotta no longer offers a Ti that I could possibly afford, I guess I no longer have a dilemma.
Oh well, I'll always have my trusty Colorado tg which evidently is the only Serotta I will ever own.

It's a positive to have an outcome to a dilemma. If you had always secretly wanted the Serotta ti it would not have been a true dilemma proposition. Rejoice and enjoy your Colorado.

[djg]

I posted the 2012 Serotta models here to keep Forum members updated on the latest from Saratoga Springs. I did notwant to start an open debate about the Company's marketing/sales strategy.
Most of you "get it". The message has not been clear to the customer. That message is being refined and will express who and what Serotta represents.

Most of us know that the bikes rock. And frankly, I think the inclusion of crash protection is significant -- it's not the only warranty one might, conceivably, use, but it's the only one out there to which I'd attach any serious issue as a buyer. Sure a joint __could__ fail in ordinary use, or one of the pipes might turn out to have a flaw that mattered -- it's not as if such things never ever happen or that nobody ever collects from a standard materials and workmanship warranty; it's just that I think that the odds of such things are pretty darn small, whereas the crash thing . . . a significantly bigger risk, I'd guess.

[Jason E]

Is any of this 7 week old information still good?

[don compton]

Here are the 2012 Serotta models;
Road-
MeiVici AE
MeiVici SE
Ottrott SE
Legend SE
Coeur d'Acier SE
HSG Super Comp - Ready-To-Ride
Travel, S&S Couplers -
Il Viaggio
MTB
Max iT w/o fork 26 or 29
TiMax w/o fork 26 or 29
All models have a $200 increase over 2011 and include Peace of Mind Crash Protection.
The 2011 paint colors were very successful and will remain unchanged for 2012
Options available will include Pave, internal routing for electric, canti bosses on metal stays.
Red Rider,
What does the term "SE" mean?
Don

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . is their top-level, all custom model. As I understand it, the SE level represents the all-custom approach that was their original core product group, so that's what they are getting back to concentrating on. Seems like a good plan . . .

BBD

[don compton]

. . . is their top-level, all custom model. As I understand it, the SE level represents the all-custom approach that was their original core product group, so that's what they are getting back to concentrating on. Seems like a good plan . . .

BBD
Thanks Dave. I bought a C-111 in 2003. It was a fantastic bike. Unfortunately, my fit changed( maturity ). I also bought a Legend. If I were to buy another Serotta , it would be an all steel (carbon fork) with my current fit.
Don C.

[jpw]

Red Rider,
What does the term "SE" mean?
Don

Superb & Expensive?

[AngryScientist]

I dont know what Serotta has in mind, but in the car world, SE generally means "special edition".

[tsarpepe]

Speaking about prices for high-end bikes:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Cervelo-R5ca-road-Frameset-51cm-/110806711142?pt=Cycling_Parts_Accessories&hash=item19cc983b66#ht_993wt_659

Note, this is for a USED frameset, mass-produced, purchased without the benefit of seeing it in person, let alone testing it on the road.

[SamIAm]

How about auctioning off a few of the 2012 models to forum members?

[RedRider]

For 2012, Serotta will be offering only custom bicycles.
We will list on the, soon to be released, new website this model line up.
MeiVici
Ottrott
Legend
Coeur d"Acier
Il Viaggio - Travel
These models previously had the designation SE that distinguished them from the GS level. There is no longer a need for that label.
There are options available such as internal routing for electronic groups, the pave, titanium stays on the Legend, steel stays on the CdA.
If you have any questions, comments or suggestions please send them to teamserotta@serotta.com
Thanks,
Steven

[Gothard]

That sounds just great to me.
Please make the Legend all ti.

[jpw]

Is Pave available on all five models?

[split]

Going back to the roots. I like! :D

For 2012, Serotta will be offering only custom bicycles.
We will list on the, soon to be released, new website this model line up.
MeiVici
Ottrott
Legend
Coeur d"Acier
Il Viaggio - Travel
These models previously had the designation SE that distinguished them from the GS level. There is no longer a need for that label.
There are options available such as internal routing for electronic groups, the pave, titanium stays on the Legend, steel stays on the CdA.
If you have any questions, comments or suggestions please send them to teamserotta@serotta.com
Thanks,
Steven

[Jason E]

I like the idea of a level TT CDA with my Atlanta Geometry. Can't wait for the new site.

[Kirk Pacenti]

For 2012, Serotta will be offering only custom bicycles.
We will list on the, soon to be released, new website this model line up.
MeiVici
Ottrott
Legend
Coeur d"Acier
Il Viaggio - Travel
These models previously had the designation SE that distinguished them from the GS level. There is no longer a need for that label.
There are options available such as internal routing for electronic groups, the pave, titanium stays on the Legend, steel stays on the CdA.
If you have any questions, comments or suggestions please send them to teamserotta@serotta.com
Thanks,
Steven

It may be semantic hair splitting, but I much prefer "made to measure" to the word "custom".

Ironically, I loath the word "bespoke"...

Cheers,
KP

[palincss]

It may be semantic hair splitting, but I much prefer "made to measure" to the word "custom".


Is it just semantics, or do they mean different things to you?

Some might argue that an established design with set geometry that is made to measure to the owner isn't a true "custom" but rather might more accurately be called a "semi-custom." To such folks, the true "custom" can only be a one-off that is individually designed "from scratch" to the specifications of the owner.

Personally, I'd far rather have a made-to-measure version of a well proven design than the other.

[1centaur]

As an owner of made-to-measure suits and shirts, I'd view custom Serottas as exactly that, since the details (possibly including tube layup) go well beyond measurements. I also think as a marketing proposition that the word "custom" has an established meaning among frame makers and connotes something to the customer base. If a frame maker used made-to-measure rather than custom in their advertising they'd be putting themselves at a significant disadvantage.

[Jason E]

For 2012, Serotta will be offering only custom bicycles.
We will list on the, soon to be released, new website this model line up.
MeiVici
Ottrott
Legend
Coeur d"Acier
Il Viaggio - Travel
These models previously had the designation SE that distinguished them from the GS level. There is no longer a need for that label.
There are options available such as internal routing for electronic groups, the pave, titanium stays on the Legend, steel stays on the CdA.
If you have any questions, comments or suggestions please send them to teamserotta@serotta.com
Thanks,
Steven

Here is an earnest question... What is the idea behind not offering a stock sizing parallel to custom? If you are building a bike, what is the difference between using measurements from a fitter, etc, or from a selection pre-determined by the manufacturer to be super awesome?

I noticed IF does this too, only offering a geometry chart for reference. It can't be a liability to offer this, I think, so why not offer proven geometry? It does not add to inventory as they do not build them until they are ordered. Insight? RR? Kirk? [eff-builder]?

[Kirk Pacenti]

Is it just semantics, or do they mean different things to you?

Some might argue that an established design with set geometry that is made to measure to the owner isn't a true "custom" but rather might more accurately be called a "semi-custom." To such folks, the true "custom" can only be a one-off that is individually designed "from scratch" to the specifications of the owner.

Personally, I'd far rather have a made-to-measure version of a well proven design than the other.

Yes, this is what I was getting at. And for the record, I am firmly planted in the 'made-to-measure' camp. I am hoping that Serotta is too...

[Kirk Pacenti]

Here is an earnest question... What is the idea behind not offering a stock sizing parallel to custom? If you are building a bike, what is the difference between using measurements from a fitter, etc, or from a selection pre-determined by the manufacturer to be super awesome?

I noticed IF does this too, only offering a geometry chart for reference. It can't be a liability to offer this, I think, so why not offer proven geometry? It does not add to inventory as they do not build them until they are ordered. Insight? RR? Kirk? [eff-builder]?

I don't see any downside to offering a 'stock' geo chart, only potential upsides. Seven and IF did this for years (not sure anymore)... But they listed 30 sizes for some models, iirc. How could you not find one that fit? Could really streamline the design process too...

[Pete Serotta]

And place a deposit :beer: I will get it to happen. Pete. Is Pave available on all five models?

[Jason E]

Aww, shucks, Pete. You know we are waiting for the big reveal! "Split" Style vibe on the website, non-rapha-esque shop, pictures of frames and dogs in the shop... Maybe a Beir or a Koffe', perhaps some Boterkoek.

PS, gotta love Downtown Raleigh http://www.beneluxcafe.com/

[jpw]

And place a deposit :beer: I will get it to happen. Pete.

Show me your wares :beer:

[Pete Serotta]

dollars and wishes (for a frame) and I will get it in the "Q"

I assure a custom frame will be built once your have been sized and you signed off on design.. And prior provided me with a deposit :D :D

(yeah I will reserve a bottle of RED for celebrating at deliverytime


QUOTE=jpw]Show me your wares :beer:[/QUOTE]

[jpw]

In view of the ongoing 'disruption' to the business model I reserve the right to withhold funds until full consumer confidence is restored. This will be greatly aided by the much trailed new website showing up in all its glory bearing a veritable horn-of-plenty to feast upon.

Promises made, promises fulfilled. :beer:

[Ahneida Ride]

Ironically, I loath the word "bespoke"...

Cheers,
KP

Same here ....

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . . what it means! :confused:

But it sounds like somebody trying to sound smart by using wierd words. I would dismiss anyone who does that as a blatant antidisestablishmentarian.

BBD

[sg8357]

. . . . what it means! :confused:
BBD

http://www.classicrendezvous.com/British_isles/Bespoke_of_Settle/Bespoke_of_Settle%20_Gate_style.htm


The words of the Master Himself...
http://www.classiclightweights.co.uk/builders/norris-lockley-builder.html

[Jason E]

Everyone duck, it's almost February!

[Kirk Pacenti]

OT: How come in the last 24 hours, I have been able to respond to old threads, but not start new ones?

Cheers,
KP

[cuda2k]

OT: How come in the last 24 hours, I have been able to respond to old threads, but not start new ones?

Cheers,
KP

Getting a server error also? I contacted Keith about this a few days ago. Start a thread with a very simple title / body, ie: "New Thread", then go back and edit it to put in the actual title and body.

[Kirk Pacenti]

Getting a server error also? I contacted Keith about this a few days ago. Start a thread with a very simple title / body, ie: "New Thread", then go back and edit it to put in the actual title and body.

Thanks, I will give it a shot.

[jpw]

Everyone duck, it's almost February!

Just skip to the 2013 range :)

[Jason E]

Hmmm.... February. :(