one of the big three should introduce a "cx/commuter/dirt road" group

[AngryScientist]

if everyone keeps pushing the technology towards electronic shifting, more and more gears in the rear, would it not be practical and sell very well if someone introduced a higher end 9-sp group meant for cx, commuting, dirt road bikes, touring, etc?

something ultegra/chorus/force level. separated from the high end road stuff. with the growing popularity of cyclocross and more practical rando/dirt road/touring typed bikes, it just makes sense to me to introduce something more suited to this type of riding.

i'm no hater of 11-sp, and although its not for me, i dont hate on e-shifting either, but having a good option for tough mechanical components without having to scour ebay for NOS stuff, or resorting to low end sora or tiagra groups would be a big bonus, and i think it would sell great, no?

call it the EXPLORER group.

"check out my new touring bike with the new explorer group - this thing's bombproof!"

is anyone listening??

[Kirk Pacenti]

Well, it's only offered in 10 / 11 speed, but the new Athena level CX group looks pretty nice.

http://www.campagnolo.com/jsp/en/groupsetdetail/item_GuarnituraCX10S_catid_16.jsp

Cheers,
KP

[oldpotatoe]

if everyone keeps pushing the technology towards electronic shifting, more and more gears in the rear, would it not be practical and sell very well if someone introduced a higher end 9-sp group meant for cx, commuting, dirt road bikes, touring, etc?

something ultegra/chorus/force level. separated from the high end road stuff. with the growing popularity of cyclocross and more practical rando/dirt road/touring typed bikes, it just makes sense to me to introduce something more suited to this type of riding.

i'm no hater of 11-sp, and although its not for me, i dont hate on e-shifting either, but having a good option for tough mechanical components without having to scour ebay for NOS stuff, or resorting to low end sora or tiagra groups would be a big bonus, and i think it would sell great, no?

call it the EXPLORER group.

"check out my new touring bike with the new explorer group - this thing's bombproof!"

is anyone listening??

If you look at bike sales you would see this segment(cx, commuting, dirt road bikes, touring) is tiny.

If the only 'beef' is that it is 10s rather than 9s, I don't see any of the big 3 going backwards to 9s or 8s, even if for this small segment it's a decent idea.

Just getting a 10s group, even with STI/ERGO, works well on the type of bicycles you mention. It isn't a show stopper to be 10s anymore, particulary with MTB also being 10s now.

[AngryScientist]

If you look at bike sales you would see this segment(cx, commuting, dirt road bikes, touring) is tiny.



that's interesting, i assume its a growing segment?

also, what's the biggest segment, probably hybrid or mtb?

[oldpotatoe]

that's interesting, i assume its a growing segment?

also, what's the biggest segment, probably hybrid or mtb?

Hybrids by far, then more or less standard road bikes, followed by more or less traditional mountain bikes.

[AngryScientist]

cool.

i would not have guessed that road bikes outsell mountain bikes. no surprise about the hybrids though.

as you mentioned, we are a tiny segment of the population, but if they released a Record level, 9-sp group, i bet it would sell well with enthusiasts.

[oldpotatoe]

cool.

i would not have guessed that road bikes outsell mountain bikes. no surprise about the hybrids though.

as you mentioned, we are a tiny segment of the population, but if they released a Record level, 9-sp group, i bet it would sell well with enthusiasts.

Don't know....seems most enthusiasts I see here in the republic(yes we are surrounded by reality) wants the 'latest and greatest'. I sell far more SR/Record, 7900/6700 than Athena/Centaur, 5700. BUT I start with a frame. Most bicycles, vast majority of bicycles, come outta a box as a bicycle. Not as a frame that is built to purpose. Vast majority of shimano and sram sales are OEM(complete bicycles). Only a teeny part is component groups. So I don't see them goin' backwards, IMHO.

[dsb]

Most bicycles, vast majority of bicycles, come outta a box as a bicycle. Not as a frame that is built to purpose.

Personally, this is one of the worst things about the TreCannoSpecial model... I get it for the low end, but the whole $5K bike in a box is just wrong...

To me, it just seems that 'they' have leveraged their dealers/shops out of being able to make margin on the parts and labor to build an 'enthusiast' bike, and reduced them to glorified box stores... Most of these 'shops' are stretched to do 'tune ups' ...

Don't get me started...

Too late...

Sorry...

[Wimpy]

if everyone keeps pushing the technology towards electronic shifting, more and more gears in the rear, would it not be practical and sell very well if someone introduced a higher end 9-sp group meant for cx, commuting, dirt road bikes, touring, etc?

something ultegra/chorus/force level. separated from the high end road stuff. with the growing popularity of cyclocross and more practical rando/dirt road/touring typed bikes, it just makes sense to me to introduce something more suited to this type of riding.

i'm no hater of 11-sp, and although its not for me, i dont hate on e-shifting either, but having a good option for tough mechanical components without having to scour ebay for NOS stuff, or resorting to low end sora or tiagra groups would be a big bonus, and i think it would sell great, no?

call it the EXPLORER group.

"check out my new touring bike with the new explorer group - this thing's bombproof!"

is anyone listening??


Sounds like a great plan. Nashbar sells a decent 9-speed group that include brifters. Find out where they spec them from, upgrade some of the materials and start you own line.

In a few short years you can file for bankruptcy and be bitter.

[Jawn P]

Ten speed instead of nine, but you get the idea...

http://www.cxmagazine.com/shimano-unveils-cx70-cyclocross-components-video-photos-exclusive

[GRAVELBIKE]

Nashbar's shifters/derailleurs are made by Microshift. Throw enough money at them and they'll probably private-label some for you.

The Athena-level CX bits are quite nice, but still probably priced too high for OE consideration. Plus, if I'm not mistaken, don't they have a wonky proprietary BCD?

Look at the specs for Salsa's complete Vayas, Fargos, and even Casserolls. Pretty sensible stuff that's available here-and-now. Maybe not as pretty as Campy or some of the Shimano parts, but still very functional.

I really wish that canti's would go the way of the dodo. Yes, they make sense for cross racing, but for the average rider, I think discs, v-brakes, or even "long"-reach dual-pivots make more sense.

[Wimpy]

Isn't shimano's MTB stuff still mostly nine speed?

The tiagra shifters work really well mated to the mountian groups.

I don't think the CX/commuter,touring folks much into the equipment like the ARB are. Most of them can't even tell you what's on their bikes. They just ride! Like it should be.

[miguel]

isn't rival the go-to for CX?

[Dave B]

Isn't shimano's MTB stuff still mostly nine speed?

The tiagra shifters work really well mated to the mountian groups.

I don't think the CX/commuter,touring folks much into the equipment like the ARB are. Most of them can't even tell you what's on their bikes. They just ride! Liek it should be.


New stuff they label as Dynasys or something is 10spd. XT, XTR and maybe LX.

[palincss]

I really wish that canti's would go the way of the dodo. Yes, they make sense for cross racing, but for the average rider, I think discs, v-brakes, or even "long"-reach dual-pivots make more sense.

None of those choices make much sense for either a touring bike or a fat-tired 'allrounder'. There are fine cantilever brakes out there that do not suffer from all the maladies you read about here all the time.

[AngryScientist]

None of those choices make much sense for either a touring bike or a fat-tired 'allrounder'. There are fine cantilever brakes out there that do not suffer from all the maladies you read about here all the time.

the canti's on my cx bike work just fine, no problems at all with them.

[fourflys]

Angry,
My Vaya came with pretty much what you're talking about I think... the only thing I changed was the brakes to BB7's...

Salsa Vaya (http://salsacycles.com/bikes/vaya/) click on the "Build Kit" tab...

[bfd]

None of those choices make much sense for either a touring bike or a fat-tired 'allrounder'. There are fine cantilever brakes out there that do not suffer from all the maladies you read about here all the time.

Can you provide the names of these canti brakes? The Suntour XC Pro cantilever brake is definitely not one of them. The front canti just caused my front fork to squeal, chatter and shudder. I tried toeing in the pads, worked for awhile; changing pads to kool stop salmon, worked for awhile; and was constantly adjusting and playing with it.

Then I tried a front tektro mini-v brake and surprise, no more squeal, chatter or shudder. Btw, this is the cheap, $15-20 version, Tektro 926al, not the fancy TRP stuff. The brake is quiet and worked almost as well as a caliper. Also, my mini-v brake was very easy to install.

The only downside is the clearance. Since its a "mini" v-brake, there isn't alot of clearance and the boot sits on top of my fender. It does cause a slight bit of friction, but not too bad. And, the mini-v brake works great with my Campy ergo levers. Good Luck!

[Lovetoclimb]

The Athena-level CX bits are quite nice, but still probably priced too high for OE consideration. Plus, if I'm not mistaken, don't they have a wonky proprietary BCD?

I think it is 110 just like compact BCD. I certainly hope so as I am about to take my compact crankset and swap rings to the CX 36/46 setup. :confused:

[palincss]

Can you provide the names of these canti brakes? The Suntour XC Pro cantilever brake is definitely not one of them. The front canti just caused my front fork to squeal, chatter and shudder. I tried toeing in the pads, worked for awhile; changing pads to kool stop salmon, worked for awhile; and was constantly adjusting and playing with it.


I currently have bikes with the following cantilever brakes, none of which have ever shuddered or chattered: Shimano Deore XT II on a MAP Randonneur; Shimano XTR M900 on a Santana tandem; Avid Shorty 4 on a George Longstaff Audax; and Dia Compe 980 on a Kogswell P/R porteur. At times, some of these have squealed, but a skilled mechanic has always been able to resolve the squealing.

[GRAVELBIKE]

I currently have bikes with the following cantilever brakes, none of which have ever shuddered or chattered: Shimano Deore XT II on a MAP Randonneur; Shimano XTR M900 on a Santana tandem; Avid Shorty 4 on a George Longstaff Audax; and Dia Compe 980 on a Kogswell P/R porteur. At times, some of these have squealed, but a skilled mechanic has always been able to resolve the squealing.

I would imagine that tubing size/gauge and brake boss placement have more to do with your success than brake choice.

[GRAVELBIKE]

For folks that don't want/need a triple, Shimano's 4550 crank is quite nice. It comes stock with 34/50 rings, but you can convert the outer ring to a 46 cheaply and easily. Now that they've released the 10-spd version, the 9-spd version is even more affordable. I liked it so much that I now own three sets!

http://www.gravelbike.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/TA-Chainrings-225x300.jpg (http://www.gravelbike.com/?p=269)

[Steve in SLO]

The only downside is the clearance. Since its a "mini" v-brake, there isn't alot of clearance and the boot sits on top of my fender. It does cause a slight bit of friction, but not too bad. And, the mini-v brake works great with my Campy ergo levers. Good Luck!

Since you are using Campy levers, you can use the release button on the ergolever to spread the pads a bit for more clearance.

[Rueda Tropical]

If you look at bike sales you would see this segment(cx, commuting, dirt road bikes, touring) is tiny.

The segment of that market looking for new upscale expensive gruppos is even smaller.

[palincss]

I would imagine that tubing size/gauge and brake boss placement have more to do with your success than brake choice.

I have no doubt you're right.

[oldpotatoe]

I think it is 110 just like compact BCD. I certainly hope so as I am about to take my compact crankset and swap rings to the CX 36/46 setup. :confused:

Well, it is 110/112 for the hidden spider. BUT lotsa rings from Campag and TA.

[ergott]

No one's going back to nine speed. 10 works just fine. I have my original Record levers and rear mech. from 2000 on my 'cross bike now. Even raced with them last Sunday. They been through hell and back and still shift just fine. The brakes are still on my current road bike (third frame so far).

What are y'all doing to your current gear that you can't race cross/commute/dirt ride on it? :rolleyes:

[EDS]

Personally, this is one of the worst things about the TreCannoSpecial model... I get it for the low end, but the whole $5K bike in a box is just wrong...

To me, it just seems that 'they' have leveraged their dealers/shops out of being able to make margin on the parts and labor to build an 'enthusiast' bike, and reduced them to glorified box stores... Most of these 'shops' are stretched to do 'tune ups' ...

Don't get me started...

Too late...

Sorry...

You could just by the frame in many cases.

[AngryScientist]

No one's going back to nine speed. 10 works just fine. I have my original Record levers and rear mech. from 2000 on my 'cross bike now. Even raced with them last Sunday. They been through hell and back and still shift just fine. The brakes are still on my current road bike (third frame so far).

What are y'all doing to your current gear that you can't race cross/commute/dirt ride on it? :rolleyes:

yea, i agree. my thinking was that as all the groups move to 11 speed, and electronic stuff becomes more popular, maybe a lower tech group for the masses might be nice. 10-sp stuff rocks, i concur.

[jr59]

yea, i agree. my thinking was that as all the groups move to 11 speed, and electronic stuff becomes more popular, maybe a lower tech group for the masses might be nice. 10-sp stuff rocks, i concur.

I think not!

It hasn't worked on C-record! Or delta brakes.

[roydyates]

the canti's on my cx bike work just fine, no problems at all with them.
But, if memory serves, you ride pretty small frames. Get a 60+cm frame with a tall headtube and get your weight up over 200, and your mileage may vary.

I'm with the poster who thinks canti's are a pain in the butt. Admittedly, I stay on the road and out of the mud.

[AngryScientist]

But, if memory serves, you ride pretty small frames. Get a 60+cm frame with a tall headtube and get your weight up over 200, and your mileage may vary.

I'm with the poster who thinks canti's are a pain in the butt. Admittedly, I stay on the road and out of the mud.

valid point, no experience with bigger frames or heavier riders.

[palincss]

But, if memory serves, you ride pretty small frames. Get a 60+cm frame with a tall headtube and get your weight up over 200, and your mileage may vary.


My frames are all 59-60 cm, and on a light day I'm 197, and as I've said before, all my cantilever brakes work just fine.

[djg]

Apart from their new cross group, Campagnolo's Centaur 10 speed is a reasonably priced group that works darn well for cross and I don't see why it wouldn't be a good choice on the road, on an all-rounder, etc. -- there's a compact crank option and some choices of rings, augmented by aftermarket options (which are not many, but are out there). Good reliable bits. I don't have canti brakes right now, because some bastard stole my cross bike, but the brakes I had (Spooky carbon) worked pretty well when properly adjusted and sporting good pads and I'd say the same about some XTRs I had on an older bike. I guess we now have a Campagnolo option for canti brakes (again) too, but I've only seen pictures of these. I really don't see any disadvantage to the 10 speed stuff over 9 speed -- straightforward setup and good reliable performance, rain or shine and, within reason, clean or dirty (obviously there's some level of muck that can by a challenge for any bits, but I don't see any particular disadvantage with the 10 speed on muddy courses).

[GRAVELBIKE]

I think one's perception of good or adequate braking is colored by their cycling background. If someone is a long-time road cyclist, and has spent many hours/miles on conventional caliper brakes, then cantilevers are more likely to feel more powerful than what they're used to. Riders who have more of a mountain bike background, however, may find that canti's pale in comparison to v-brakes or discs.

As a heavier rider (200 lbs), I appreciate the extra stopping power of discs and v-brakes. My commute includes a few miles of dirt roads/trails, and with a combined weight of 240 pounds (bike, rider, panniers), cantilevers just don't cut it.

[roydyates]

My frames are all 59-60 cm, and on a light day I'm 197, and as I've said before, all my cantilever brakes work just fine.
You're either more skilled or luckier than me, but probably both. Besides the additional fiddliness needed to mount them, I have a variety of annoying canti experiences, including

1) A bike with a springy front fork that induced classic oscillation at the worst possible times with a variety of canti brakes. I know that a low hangar bolted on the brakehole would fix this except the fork doesn't have a brakehole. The solution was a stiffer fork.

2) A bike that has canti posts but lacks the side pin hole that loads the spring. The only brakes I have that don't need the pin hole are the Paul brakes. However, the Paul brakes use a sleeve over the canti post that positions them further away from the forks. This would be fine, but it doesn't agree with mounting my Nitto mini front rack.

3) An old bike with a narrow fork. Various modern canti's and even mini v-brakes I tried get stuck in the forks so that I have to deflate the front tire to remove it. The only cantis I found that don't get stuck in the forks are old school Dia Compes. They work, but not great, and they're kinda ugly.

Finally, a set of cantis will seem fine until one day they're not fine and they squeal like crazy for no obvious reasons.

Sorry for the whining, but it bugs me because the canti design appeals to me because it looks ATMO more elegant than a modern dual pivot sidepull.

[jeduardo]

Please don't get me wrong, but even after 1 full season on my Athena 11 distance (ie. chunky) rig, I may just opt for 10s Veloce for a drop or flat bar commuter . Total user costs seem more than palatable. Veloce CX may also be a possibility for some


Well, it's only offered in 10 / 11 speed, but the new Athena level CX group looks pretty nice.

http://www.campagnolo.com/jsp/en/groupsetdetail/item_GuarnituraCX10S_catid_16.jsp

Cheers,
KP

[Aaron O]

There is something about cantis and how they interact with forks that I don't understand. I had a Jake the Snake with Avid Shorty 4s and NOTHING I could do would resolve the squeal. You could improve it, but never eliminate it. I took it to some excellent menchanics, and after a day or two...squeal. I have a Lemond Poprad...with Shorty 4s...they squeal far less. I had bought a set of Pauls expecting to have to change them, and the Pauls are still in a bin. Eventually I might do it, but, thus far, I'm on with the Avids.

The best canti I've ever used are the Dia Compe 982 NGCs I have on my all rounder'/touring bike. They have a QR yokel and are far easier to set up. No squeal, lots of force by canti standards and they look good. I had some older dia-compe cantis on the Lotus Odyssey I rode as a kid...and they were HORRIBLE.

[roydyates]

There is something about cantis and how they interact with forks that I don't understand. I had a Jake the Snake with Avid Shorty 4s and NOTHING I could do would resolve the squeal. You could improve it, but never eliminate it. I took it to some excellent menchanics, and after a day or two...squeal. I have a Lemond Poprad...with Shorty 4s...they squeal far less. I had bought a set of Pauls expecting to have to change them, and the Pauls are still in a bin. Eventually I might do it, but, thus far, I'm on with the Avids.

The best canti I've ever used are the Dia Compe 982 NGCs I have on my all rounder'/touring bike. They have a QR yokel and are far easier to set up. No squeal, lots of force by canti standards and they look good. I had some older dia-compe cantis on the Lotus Odyssey I rode as a kid...and they were HORRIBLE.
There are several nice explanations here in the forum or on the web that explain how flexing of the fork can induce squeal or scary fork flex oscillation with cantis. The problem is that springyness in the fork is often good for ride but generally bad for canti brakes.

I heard a talk yesterday by the Caltech Prof John Doyle that presented analogies related to this. He pointed to many examples from nature in which the most successful systems employed a modular or layered architecture. In the realm of bike brakes, cantis are less modular in that the performance depends on the springiness of the fork and the length of the head tube. Sidepull calipers are more modular in that their dependence on the frame/fork is greatly reduced. My impression is that this is also true for discs although I don't have any actual experience there.

On the other hand, for custom bikes with cantis, the builder ought to account for these effects so that the customer never faces a bad canti brake/fork interaction. I wonder if a poll could show that canti's are less frequently frustrating on custom bikes?

[Mark McM]

I heard a talk yesterday by the Caltech Prof John Doyle that presented analogies related to this. He pointed to many examples from nature in which the most successful systems employed a modular or layered architecture. In the realm of bike brakes, cantis are less modular in that the performance depends on the springiness of the fork and the length of the head tube. Sidepull calipers are more modular in that their dependence on the frame/fork is greatly reduced. My impression is that this is also true for discs although I don't have any actual experience there.

I think this is pointing to a basic flaw in the design concept of many cantilever brakes - that of mounting the cable hanger on the top of the steerer (or even on the stem). A brake is basically a clamp (squeezing a rim or a disc or a drum), and by mounting the hanger on the top of the steerer, you are including the fork crown and steerer in the clamping mechanism. This introduces the unintended side-affect of adding the flexing of the steerer (under braking load) into the brake clamping action, and the result is the feedback oscillation that causes shuddering.

Rather than trying 'patches' to fix the shuddering (excessive toe-in, cutting off ends of the brake pads, stiffenng the steerer, etc.), the problem should be addressed fixing the inherent flaw in the design, and removing the steerer from the clamping mechanism. A simple way to do this is to use a fork crown mounted cable hanger.

[Aaron O]

There are several nice explanations here in the forum or on the web that explain how flexing of the fork can induce squeal or scary fork flex oscillation with cantis. The problem is that springyness in the fork is often good for ride but generally bad for canti brakes.

I heard a talk yesterday by the Caltech Prof John Doyle that presented analogies related to this. He pointed to many examples from nature in which the most successful systems employed a modular or layered architecture. In the realm of bike brakes, cantis are less modular in that the performance depends on the springiness of the fork and the length of the head tube. Sidepull calipers are more modular in that their dependence on the frame/fork is greatly reduced. My impression is that this is also true for discs although I don't have any actual experience there.

On the other hand, for custom bikes with cantis, the builder ought to account for these effects so that the customer never faces a bad canti brake/fork interaction. I wonder if a poll could show that canti's are less frequently frustrating on custom bikes?

Roy - interesting, and it jibes with my experiences. It can't be all the brake if the same brake was a nightmare with one fork (easton 70) and fine with another (alpha Q). I do prefer the touring style longer armed cantis over the short arm CX version for stopping power and ease of setup.

[William]

... Get a 60+cm frame with a tall headtube and get your weight up over 200, and your mileage may vary.





I resemble that remark. Switched to V's and will never go back.




William

[anomaly]

I race cross on Campy 11 and have put many single track/dirt road miles on the Peg with Campy 11. I've never had a problem with it gunking up.

[bfd]

I think this is pointing to a basic flaw in the design concept of many cantilever brakes - that of mounting the cable hanger on the top of the steerer (or even on the stem). A brake is basically a clamp (squeezing a rim or a disc or a drum), and by mounting the hanger on the top of the steerer, you are including the fork crown and steerer in the clamping mechanism. This introduces the unintended side-affect of adding the flexing of the steerer (under braking load) into the brake clamping action, and the result is the feedback oscillation that causes shuddering.

Rather than trying 'patches' to fix the shuddering (excessive toe-in, cutting off ends of the brake pads, stiffenng the steerer, etc.), the problem should be addressed fixing the inherent flaw in the design, and removing the steerer from the clamping mechanism. A simple way to do this is to use a fork crown mounted cable hanger.

Good point. I'm not familar with a fork crown mount cable hanger, but another solution I heard about after I switched from cantis to mini-v brakes is to get a brake hole mount cable hanger like these:

http://www.origin-8.com/?page_id=91&short_code=Brake+Hole+Mount+Cable+Hanger&cl1=CABLES

http://www.specialized.com/us/en/bc/SBCEqProduct.jsp?spid=47409

Good Luck!

[roydyates]

Good point. I'm not familar with a fork crown mount cable hanger, but another solution I heard about after I switched from cantis to mini-v brakes is to get a brake hole mount cable hanger like these:

http://www.origin-8.com/?page_id=91&short_code=Brake+Hole+Mount+Cable+Hanger&cl1=CABLES

http://www.specialized.com/us/en/bc/SBCEqProduct.jsp?spid=47409

Good Luck!

Since the brake hole goes through the fork crown ...

[bfd]

Since the brake hole goes through the fork crown ...

Duh...that's what I get for having a unicrown fork....