Dura Ace Goes to 11

[Uncle Jam's Army]

Looks like a "confidential" document has been leaked indicating Shimano Dura Ace will go to 11-speed (mechanical) in August of next year; called Dura Ace 9000. Interesting crankset options, too, like 52-36. Interesting that they continue to innovate on the mechanical side, rather than go all in on the electronic.

[AngryScientist]

Interesting crankset options, too, like 52-36. Interesting that they continue to innovate on the mechanical side, rather than go all in on the electronic.

that is interesting news. as far as innovating on the mechanical side, the cassettes and cranks obviously work for the electronic stuff too, shifters to accommodate the new 11-sp standard probably just made sense.

[Elefantino]

SRAM? Bueller?

[Spicoli]

SRAM? Bueller?

Funny I hope Sram stay's 10spd and mechanical, crap 8spd was good enough and 9 was fine but 11 is just more for the sake of more IMO. I want my bike to still be a bike at the end of the day. I know this place is Campy-centric and not too many Sram fans on the forum but I've had the same Sram kits from the day they where released and they have worked flawless for me. I've beat the bahjeebus out of the stuff too. Sram has become the "blue collar" racing groupo to me.

Edit/?: would cyclist/racer types be interested in a mechanical group that is lighter and half the price of the electronic stuff...market it towards the amateur bike racer??? would that ever work???

[ultraman6970]

They are building the base for electronic 11 in my opinion. Hope they are smarter and u are able t ogo 11 using your old RD at least, kind'a bad stab for campagnolo if they do that. Besides they have room for 11 since forever, doesn't surprise me at all.

[Kirk Pacenti]

At the risk of sounding like I am beating a dead horse; 12 / 13 speeds are coming...

And speaking of electronics, the guys at Campagnolo, gave me some interesting insights. They said Shimano actually has been encouraging Campy's release of of an electronic group; primarily to validate their own [Shimano] efforts.

SRAM is too big not to have an electronic group... Wouldn't be surprised if they release something in the next year or so. Personally, I could not imagine using an e-group, but I said the same thing about full suspension MTB's and disc brakes... so I won't say "never".

Cheers,

KP

[Elefantino]

12, 13, 14 ...

At what point do road bikes go to 135 in the rear?

[oldpotatoe]

Funny I hope Sram stay's 10spd and mechanical, crap 8spd was good enough and 9 was fine but 11 is just more for the sake of more IMO. I want my bike to still be a bike at the end of the day. I know this place is Campy-centric and not too many Sram fans on the forum but I've had the same Sram kits from the day they where released and they have worked flawless for me. I've beat the bahjeebus out of the stuff too. Sram has become the "blue collar" racing groupo to me.

Edit/?: would cyclist/racer types be interested in a mechanical group that is lighter and half the price of the electronic stuff...market it towards the amateur bike racer??? would that ever work???

Already exists..Centaur, Veloce, 5700, 6700....With great reliability. Any amateur bike racer(read that relatively inexperienced, read that may crash some) that opts for the high end of any bike componentry OR frame/wheelset is asking for 'dollar drain'.

If I were to race(and I'm not), I would get a Gunnar frame, Veloce group, and go race.

[FlashUNC]

Already exists..Centaur, Veloce, 5700, 6700....With great reliability. Any amateur bike racer(read that relatively inexperienced, read that may crash some) that opts for the high end of any bike componentry OR frame/wheelset is asking for 'dollar drain'.

If I were to race(and I'm not), I would get a Gunnar frame, Veloce group, and go race.

+1. My Veloce stuff has been every bit as bulletproof as higher end Campy parts that I've used.

[Spicoli]

Already exists..Centaur, Veloce, 5700, 6700....With great reliability. Any amateur bike racer(read that relatively inexperienced, read that may crash some) that opts for the high end of any bike componentry OR frame/wheelset is asking for 'dollar drain'.

If I were to race(and I'm not), I would get a Gunnar frame, Veloce group, and go race.

Nah too heavy and not close enough to the sharp end of things....race worthy yes but not on par with the top end. Rival if you dump the crankset is a real light race worthy group. Same action without the clunk most lower groups have. Rival, Force and Red are light in weight and feel, on par with Dura Ace and Record for much less...Ultegra and lower end Campy are bulky/clunky in comparison ATMO. Dont want to get into a weight does not matter conversation because it does to some and not to others.

[sg8357]

12, 13, 14 ...

At what point do road bikes go to 135 in the rear?

That happened a while ago, in 1997. I had a Trek 520,
135mm XT Silent Clutch hub.
Racin' bikes are still at 130

[cfox]

They are building the base for electronic 11 in my opinion. Hope they are smarter and u are able t ogo 11 using your old RD at least, kind'a bad stab for campagnolo if they do that. Besides they have room for 11 since forever, doesn't surprise me at all.

The Di2 FD houses the 'brain', so presumably a new FD (with an 11 speed spacing brain), chain, and cassette would get you to 11. Could be sold as another upgrade kit. Of course, if the chainring spacing changes, you'll need new cranks, too.

[Kirk Pacenti]

At what point do road bikes go to 135 in the rear?

Much discussion on this in other threads. It needs to happen...and has needed to for years, imo. The sooner the better.

Fwiw, Shimano was testing 14 speed drive-trains 16 years ago. There is nothing new under the sun...

Cheers,
KP

[Nooch]

Force if you dump the crankset is a real light race worthy group.

Do you mean Rival?

[oldpotatoe]

Nah too heavy and not close enough to the sharp end of things....race worthy yes but not on par with the top end. Force if you dump the crankset is a real light race worthy group. Same action without the clunk most lower groups have. Force and Red are light in weight and feel, on par with Dura Ace and Record...Ultegra and lower end Campy are bulky/clunky in comparison ATMO. Dont want to get into a weight does not matter conversation because it does to some and not to others.

Well, whatever blows yer skirt up. I see that you don't want to get into the weight doesn't matter conversation, so I won't mention that that 500+ grams extra on the bicycle I mentioned for a 87,000 gram bike and ride package really means oh so little, so I won't mention it................

We'll have to disagree about 'bulky, clunky' part of the equation, in spite of the 6700 and 5700 shift innardfs being the same as 7900.

Far more important is the frame and wheels, in terms of fit and reliability than shifter action. And reliability. I see that you have had no problems with sram in terms of reliability, I have seen the opposite when compared to the other 2 component makes. Anecdotal only but I can't ignore 22-23 or so calls for warranty to sram.

[Spicoli]

Do you mean Rival?
Good catch...yep

[Spicoli]

Well, whatever blows yer skirt up. I see that you don't want to get into the weight doesn't matter conversation, so I won't mention that that 500+ grams extra on the bicycle I mentioned for a 87,000 gram bike and ride package really means oh so little, so I won't mention it................

We'll have to disagree about 'bulky, clunky' part of the equation, in spite of the 6700 and 5700 shift innardfs being the same as 7900.

Far more important is the frame and wheels, in terms of fit and reliability than shifter action. And reliability. I see that you have had no problems with sram in terms of reliability, I have seen the opposite when compared to the other 2 component makes. Anecdotal only but I can't ignore 22-23 or so calls for warranty to sram.

Nice of you to take the high road and not mention it :hello:

This is obviously an opinion thread so trolling for reactions has no purpose...and I too have been around a little while and have formed some stead fast opinions on things too. The whole frame wheel blahblah is all known by most who come here so, no worries.

Point is that the sharp end of components has been around for some time. That said and IMO the price should drop on this stuff and the performance should be the same or get better with time. Dont change the color and charge more.......my point is maybe they should embrace the everyday racer if theydont want to invest in the gizmo arms race?

[bikemoore]

I don't doubt that Shimano encouraged Campy to develop an electronic groupset. But, I think the reason is something other than to validate their own effort. Companies who become the sole source of a product actually risk stagnating their market and lowering their profit margins. Initially, they sell gobs of them and make lots of money, but eventually the market becomes flat and very price-sensitive with considerable pressure from OEM bicycle manufacturers to provide them with components at a lower price.

Competition between multiple component manufacturers is actually healthier for the manufacturers themselves. Competition enables the component makers to more quickly advance technology/capability, raise prices, and keep a vibrant market.

Shimano was at risk of stagnating the component market in the early 1990s when they brought STI to market. STI was such a game changer that there was fear that Campy would fail to keep up and go out of business until it came out with Ergopower. When all bikes carry the same line of components, bike makers have a difficult time differentiating themselves from their competition. It would become a game of who could provide the best value in a Ultegra or 105 electronic bike.

Of course, there is a limit to the amount room for competitors in a given market and too much competition confuses customers, but it is also not healthy to be the sole supplier of a market.

BTW....I'm an engineer, so if any smarter business people want to tell me I'm full of it, I guess its OK.

[ergott]

Edit/?: would cyclist/racer types be interested in a mechanical group that is lighter and half the price of the electronic stuff...market it towards the amateur bike racer??? would that ever work???

I think Chorus is pretty close. It's definitely much cheaper than whatever the EPS will be (most likely half or less). The shifting action on Chorus is excellent and the weight of the group is competitive. I remember when some continental teams raced Chorus. That group holds no one back. Too heavy, get a titanium bolt kit.

My race bike is still 10 speed with the first generation Centaur levers that were the new shape. The shifting is on par with the top stuff, but that was before they cheapened them (still has the carbon blades).

-

[oldpotatoe]

Nice of you to take the high road and not mention it :hello:

This is obviously an opinion thread so trolling for reactions has no purpose...and I too have been around a little while and have formed some stead fast opinions on things too. The whole frame wheel blahblah is all known by most who come here so, no worries.

Point is that the sharp end of components has been around for some time. That said and IMO the price should drop on this stuff and the performance should be the same or get better with time. Dont change the color and charge more.......my point is maybe they should embrace the everyday racer if theydont want to invest in the gizmo arms race?

Well, I think they embrace the everyday consumer, who may wish to be 'like' a racer, not commenting on you but what I see everyday in the shop.

It is and always has been a gizmo arms race. Even from the early days when Campagnolo started putting more aluminum and titanium(mystery material!!) into their pedals, BB spindles and rear derailleurs. Sponsored racers got them, used the stuff, won, it sold. Win on sunday, sell on monday is alive and well in the bike gadget game.

Trickle down has too. 90% of the 'performance', whatever that means, with 50% of the $. Why Suntour went under. They started at the low end and tried to go up. shimano started at DA and went down. Same for Campagnolo.

All I'm saying is that the lower end groups work just fine for the Cat whatever, non sponsored racer. BUT the big boys don't want that. They want to see some guy win a stage in Europe and then a consumer with ltsa$(see Cyclingnews 'halo bike' article), go to a Specialized dealer and by a 'replica', complete with kit.

I think we're saying 'almost' the same thing. AND weight really doesn't matter(JOKE.....).

[topher]

I think that 135 rear spacing on road bikes is right around the corner - not driven by cassettes, but more by road disc brakes...

[Chance]

The extra 2.5 MM per side will make room for what, one more cog? Maybe 1-1/2 cogs? OTOH if applied to Campy 11 cog spacing that would get them to 12, maybe close to 13.

Discs already fit 130 MM wheels. Maybe 135 would be better but using that logic why stop there. Why not go to 160 like Santana and make room for disc plus 20 gears? :rolleyes:

It will happen but it will be driven by builders that want something new so they can sell more frames. It’s hard to see how our collective “need” for 135 will drive this new standard.

[saab2000]

It will allow for superior wheel dishing, among other things. And maybe, yes, more gears. And disc brakes.

[Kirk Pacenti]

The extra 2.5 MM per side will make room for what, one more cog? Maybe 1-1/2 cogs? OTOH if applied to Campy 11 cog spacing that would get them to 12, maybe close to 13.

Discs already fit 130 MM wheels. Maybe 135 would be better but using that logic why stop there. Why not go to 160 like Santana and make room for disc plus 20 gears? :rolleyes:

It will happen but it will be driven by builders that want something new so they can sell more frames. It’s hard to see how our collective “need” for 135 will drive this new standard.

It's interesting to me that you joined this forum just a few months ago and already have several hundred posts. Of the few I have read, the overarching theme seems to be that you're dubious of most peoples logic, collective knowledge / wisdom.

If the age given in your profile is accurate, it might be worth soaking in some of the many decades worth of experience available here rather than finding fault...

:confused:

KP

[oldpotatoe]

It will allow for superior wheel dishing, among other things. And maybe, yes, more gears. And disc brakes.

What he said. It will be used to move the LH flange outboard but still be able to put on a properly aligned rotor. 130mm rear hubs with discs have a very low LH ctr to flange and allowances when building the wheels need to be made,

Doubt it will be for more cogs, but the other side of the hub. Having said that, shimano 11s will have a new freehub body, more along the lines, width wise, as Campagnolo unless they opt for the arched chain link design seen in their 14 speed patent.

I think the question is disc for road more than 135mm spacing as some sort of new road standard. I think that's very much up in the air. No more 800 gram road frames and uber light road forks if they are going to support disc brakes. Along with that 'other MTB thing' that has not made the full transition to road(tubeless), disc brake utility on a road bike, is not a done deal yet.

MTB, Tandems, touring bikes, discs worth their weight in titanium.

[Kirk Pacenti]

It will allow for superior wheel dishing, among other things. And maybe, yes, more gears. And disc brakes.

Agreed. And the pros for reducing the wheel dish by a few mm greatly outweigh the cons of wider Q and reduced heel clearance... by a long shot imo.

Cheers,
KP

[bicycletricycle]

gears are dumb, technology is dumb, 14 speed is dumb

[Mark McM]

It will allow for superior wheel dishing, among other things.

It could, but not without pushing the chainline further outboard and its subsequent increase in Q-factor. Proper Q-factor is a very subjective measure, but I'm more comfortable with a narrow Q-factor, and would prefer that the chainline not be pushed out.

As we all know, as the number of sprockets went from 5 to 6 to 7 and then to 8, axle width went from 120 mm to 130mm, and chainline (and Q-factor) increased commensurately. But as the the number of sprockets has gone to 9 then 10 and now 11, axle width has stayed the same 130 mm width. I think a part of this decision not to change axle width was in consideration of not wanting to increase Q-factor any further, and rightly so.

[Ti Designs]

gears are dumb, technology is dumb, 14 speed is dumb


There's some real intelligence behind that statement.


I've never understood the need to always have more. Take a step back an look at the whole picture, when has always having more been such a good idea? I've always been the one to find that what I have is enough, if there's anything that needs improvement it's me. I have to ask if this push to always have more is sustainable?

I started racing on 5-speed. Running junior gearing that seemed like about 3 gears more than we really needed. Then there was 6-speed, I did most of my racing on 6-speed. It was reliable, durable and affordable - something had to change! With 7-speed came failures. Wider frames, more axle overhang on the rear hub, more dishing on the wheel, narrower chains... With 8-speed came STI. I noticed an advantage in being able to shift while out of the saddle, but it was so expensive and durable wasn't in the program. 9-speed was more durable, but the chains and cogs got even narrower. From 7.2mm in 8-speed to 6.5mm in 9-speed and 5.4mm in 10-speed. Component failures are a part of cycling now. Every group ride I go on there's at least one. My decision not to go to 10-speed was a simple one, given my mileage and the cost of chains and cassettes, I couldn't afford it.

I probably don't get nearly the mileage or performance out of my bike that y'all get out of yours...

[nahtnoj]

Looks like a "confidential" document has been leaked indicating Shimano Dura Ace will go to 11-speed (mechanical) in August of next year; called Dura Ace 9000. Interesting crankset options, too, like 52-36. Interesting that they continue to innovate on the mechanical side, rather than go all in on the electronic.

9, 10, 11 - whatever.

I'm more excited to see Shimano embracing chainring options other than 53/39 and 50/34.

[rwsaunders]

Next thing you know cars will shift themselves and you won't have to wind up your windows...

[Lovetoclimb]

Funny I hope Sram stay's 10spd and mechanical, crap 8spd was good enough and 9 was fine but 11 is just more for the sake of more IMO. I want my bike to still be a bike at the end of the day. I know this place is Campy-centric and not too many Sram fans on the forum but I've had the same Sram kits from the day they where released and they have worked flawless for me. I've beat the bahjeebus out of the stuff too. Sram has become the "blue collar" racing groupo to me.

Edit/?: would cyclist/racer types be interested in a mechanical group that is lighter and half the price of the electronic stuff...market it towards the amateur bike racer??? would that ever work???

I see electric as a cool innovation but not necessary for my level of racing. Even when I reach regional cat 1 domination :confused: . . . it will still be mechanical cable actuated stuff for me. Considering my $800 Athena gruppo is still going strong, despite parts being found on multiple bikes now, with only one shifter rebuild required after 12k miles.

[Gummee]

I started racing on 5-speed. Running junior gearing that seemed like about 3 gears more than we really needed. Then there was 6-speed, I did most of my racing on 6-speed. It was reliable, durable and affordable - something had to change! With 7-speed came failures. Wider frames, more axle overhang on the rear hub, more dishing on the wheel, narrower chains... With 8-speed came STI. I noticed an advantage in being able to shift while out of the saddle, but it was so expensive and durable wasn't in the program. 9-speed was more durable, but the chains and cogs got even narrower. From 7.2mm in 8-speed to 6.5mm in 9-speed and 5.4mm in 10-speed. I started riding and racing at 6sp. I thought 7sp was the bee's knees. Then 8 was great... etc. I still think for JRA the cog spacing of 7sp is about perfect. Racing? That 1-tooth jump can be important.

Am I going 11? Electronic? No time soon. :nah Despite loving my Zap, I just don't trust Shimano to not make this gen of D/A obsolete here in a year or so. They have a history of doing that... Maybe when they change the wiring to be the same as the Ui2? Maybe.

Component failures are a part of cycling now. Every group ride I go on there's at least one. Only component failure on a ride I've seen in years was a broken inner paddle on a SRAM Force shifter a few weeks back. The rider in question happened to have one of the ones that SRAM knew they had a problem with. Otherwise? Years of watching people ride around happy as a pig in slop on their 10sp stuff.

YMMV...

M

[Chance]

It's interesting to me that you joined this forum just a few months ago and already have several hundred posts. Of the few I have read, the overarching theme seems to be that you're dubious of most peoples logic, collective knowledge / wisdom.

If the age given in your profile is accurate, it might be worth soaking in some of the many decades worth of experience available here rather than finding fault...

:confused:

KP
What’s actually interesting is your reply as if someone died and left you in charge of the post count police.

Not that anyone needs your approval to post, but it’s interesting that you notice and criticize 300 post in three months, or about 1000 a year when others far exceed that. Oldpotatoe as just one example has over 4000 in two years yet you are not questioning his post count. Other members post even more. So it's not the numbers is it?

Obviously you are not actually questioning the post count but rather taking a cheap shot because you don’t agree with or like the content of my post. And that’s your choice but please don’t make it personal. Disagree with content all you want but leave my personal life out of it.

And not that it matters but my age is also no business of yours. Besides, age has little to do with maturity, knowledge, or intelligence. Older guys often have more relevant experience but age alone doesn’t make them more qualified to post. A few people are both old and uninformed yet post anyway. And again, not that you are the post police with power to censor who is qualified to post.

[54ny77]

really, how many of you use all available gears?

if there was a 7, 8 or even 9 spd option, i'd be fine with it.

am not speaking as luddite, but more from practicality.

plus, less gears means less need for precision adjustment, i.e., enough wiggle room for slop to not need adjusting for months/years.

[Spicoli]

I think Chorus is pretty close. It's definitely much cheaper than whatever the EPS will be (most likely half or less). The shifting action on Chorus is excellent and the weight of the group is competitive. I remember when some continental teams raced Chorus. That group holds no one back. Too heavy, get a titanium bolt kit.

My race bike is still 10 speed with the first generation Centaur levers that were the new shape. The shifting is on par with the top stuff, but that was before they cheapened them (still has the carbon blades).

-
Your probably right...I am not to savvy on the cost of Chorus, still am under the impression it's one of the more exspensive groups going? Great but exspensive!

[Spicoli]

Oldpotato; I think we're saying 'almost' the same thing. AND weight really doesn't matter(JOKE.....).

Agreed totally........and believe me I am not of the weight weenie camp, I like my teeth in my head and my blood in my body when it comes to picking components. Was just trying to avoid a counting grams sidetrack is all. :beer:

[ergott]

Your probably right...I am not to savvy on the cost of Chorus, still am under the impression it's one of the more exspensive groups going? Great but exspensive!

It's not cheap, but it should fit your criteria of being about half the cost of Record EPS. I haven't see updated pricing to be 100% sure.

-

[c-record]

Some of the things beginning to pop up in this thread are the reasons I don't post as often as some. Can't we all just get along? :banana:

[dana_e]

I should have stayed at 8 campy ergo

Worked great

[Kirk Pacenti]

What’s actually interesting is your reply as if someone died and left you in charge of the post count police.

Not that anyone needs your approval to post, but it’s interesting that you notice and criticize 300 post in three months, or about 1000 a year when others far exceed that. Oldpotatoe as just one example has over 4000 in two years yet you are not questioning his post count. Other members post even more. So it's not the numbers is it?

Obviously you are not actually questioning the post count but rather taking a cheap shot because you don’t agree with or like the content of my post. And that’s your choice but please don’t make it personal. Disagree with content all you want but leave my personal life out of it.

And not that it matters but my age is also no business of yours. Besides, age has little to do with maturity, knowledge, or intelligence. Older guys often have more relevant experience but age alone doesn’t make them more qualified to post. A few people are both old and uninformed yet post anyway. And again, not that you are the post police with power to censor who is qualified to post.

Yes, what I expected; disagreement = personal attack... well played. ???

You clearly have strong opinions and are not afraid to voice them. But when someone with more knowledge / experience calls you on them, you call it a personal attack, or decide not to play anymore. (See front center thread)

Fwiw, none of this is personal (at least to me). I've been doing this long enough to know the more I learn the more I need to learn. I have learned things from people with less than a 10th of my experience and am grateful for it. The thing is, I don't feel any need to "be right", I am not afraid to be wrong or make mistakes, which in turn facilitates real learning. I am here for the lively exchange and hopefully to learn a thing or two. I doubt very much that anything I say will change anyone's opinion. And I don't feel threatened when people disagree with mine. I am not in the ‘convincing’ business, nor do I want to be. In the end it really doesn't matter... the industry will do what's best for the industry. We are all, for the most part, armchair quarterbacks here.

I only noticed that you seem to regularly question other people’s logic, maturity, knowledge and intelligence. That is, if you don't agree with their post, they obviously have flawed logic, maturity knowledge or intelligence. You seem to dish it out well enough, but have a hard time taking it. Maybe what you see in all of us is simply a reflection of what you see in yourself?

Cheers,
KP

[AngryScientist]

Maybe what you see in all of us is simply a reflection of what you see in yourself?



http://thinng.com/system/images/463/square/master-pai-mei.png?1307612986

:beer: :beer:

[54ny77]

http://i422.photobucket.com/albums/pp307/mozuch/Misc/80fe33f6c947ec5bbd43485729aa.gif

[Kirk Pacenti]

.

[trangalang]

Can't wait for Tiagra di2.

[jpw]

Whatever you've got get out and ride it. :beer:

[vqdriver]

http://i422.photobucket.com/albums/pp307/mozuch/Misc/80fe33f6c947ec5bbd43485729aa.gif

dude, that's hypnotic

[Chance]

Yes, what I expected; disagreement = personal attack... well played. ???

You clearly have strong opinions and are not afraid to voice them. But when someone with more knowledge / experience calls you on them, you call it a personal attack, or decide not to play anymore. (See front center thread)

Fwiw, none of this is personal (at least to me). I've been doing this long enough to know the more I learn the more I need to learn. I have learned things from people with less than a 10th of my experience and am grateful for it. The thing is, I don't feel any need to "be right", I am not afraid to be wrong or make mistakes, which in turn facilitates real learning. I am here for the lively exchange and hopefully to learn a thing or two. I doubt very much that anything I say will change anyone's opinion. And I don't feel threatened when people disagree with mine. I am not in the ‘convincing’ business, nor do I want to be. In the end it really doesn't matter... the industry will do what's best for the industry. We are all, for the most part, armchair quarterbacks here.

I only noticed that you seem to regularly question other people’s logic, maturity, knowledge and intelligence. That is, if you don't agree with their post, they obviously have flawed logic, maturity knowledge or intelligence. You seem to dish it out well enough, but have a hard time taking it. Maybe what you see in all of us is simply a reflection of what you see in yourself?

Cheers,
KP
With all due respect demanded of frame builders we’ve already done this dance once before. Don’t know how else to tell you that it seems ill-advised for any “standard” member to openly debate with one of the builders on any subject matter related to bicycles. It has nothing to do with your knowledge or experience. Why is that so hard for you to understand and accept? If others want to engage that’s their choice. For me staying out of potential controversy with builders works better.

It’d be nice if you could respect that.

And yes, we all have very strong opinions otherwise we wouldn’t be here. And no, it’s not a matter of “deciding not to play anymore” when others disagree with me. If you’d research previous posts like you did my age you would’ve seen that’s not the case at all. You are simply wrong on that.

[rain dogs]

http://www.netbooknews.com/wp-content/2011/07/the-pyramid-of-debate-550x417.jpg

like in cycling.... it's more fun at the top, but a lot of work to be up there.

[54ny77]

yes that .gif is great, just found it on the web.

been waiting for an excuse to use it here.

luckily, that opportunity can arise often.... :D


dude, that's hypnotic

[Kirk Pacenti]

I've never understood the need to always have more. Take a step back an look at the whole picture, when has always having more been such a good idea? I've always been the one to find that what I have is enough, if there's anything that needs improvement it's me. I have to ask if this push to always have more is sustainable?


Having started out on BMX, single speed MTB's and later, fixed gear road bikes, you can believe me when I say that I have struggled with these issues my entire career... particularly the sustainability bit. As for being the weak link in my ride, the one in need of improvement, I came to terms with that years ago. ;)

And like you, I have always been pretty content with the gear available. In fact, I have generally made a point of riding second tier groups. XT not XTR, Ultegra, not DA. I figure if I can't have fun and be happy riding with that stuff, it's my problem, not the fault of the tools. But it's hard for an industry to survive on contented customers. (however nice it would be to believe)

Now I just go with it, and even create some of it... After all, this is the business we've chosen.* Today I am more concerned about finding time to ride and being able to walk into any LBS to find the spare part I need to keep me riding rather than spending my time scouring the net for my preferred 8spd drive train parts.

It seems to be a mini arms race, from the tier one suppliers all the way down to the Saturday club ride that drives most of this stuff. Where does it all end? I don't know. Maybe in some post-apocalyptic, Mad Max / Blade Runner vision of the future where mad-scientist-mechanics scrounge parts bins of yesteryear for the very last 19 speed Shimagnolo cassette and nuclear powered, telepathically operated brifters on the planet...

Cheers,
KP







*Hyman Roth - The GodFather: Part II

Cheers,
KP

[Louis]

That's it. To ensure that I have enough 9-spd components to last the rest of my life and the life of the folks to whom I will bequeath my bike stuff I'm buying 25 cranksets, 50 BB's, Fders and Rders, 75 cassettes and shifters, and 300 chains.

That way they can do whatever they want, and I won't give a rat's @ss.

[Fivethumbs]

One day I plan on taking a trip to France and riding up Alpe d'Huez on a bike with 7 speed downtube shifters and a cycling cap. Maybe one that says Tonton Tapiz.

[Louis]

This is the top of the pyramid:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y

http://www.netbooknews.com/wp-content/2011/07/the-pyramid-of-debate-550x417.jpg

like in cycling.... it's more fun at the top, but a lot of work to be up there.

[merckx]

I have Campy 11v and it works really well. However, I've been longing for DT shifters and 9v so I may throw some old stuff I have in a bin on my machine and ride it through the winter. There is nothing like the snap you get when you yank on a Campy DT shift lever.

[kohlboto]

220, 221...whatever it takes.

[oldpotatoe]

More here.

http://bicycling.com/blogs/thisjustin/2011/11/30/shimano-dura-ace-goes-to-11-in-2013/

[nahtnoj]

[QUOTE=Kirk Pacenti

Now I just go with it, and even create some of it... After all, this is the business we've chosen.* [/QUOTE]

Gotta make money for your partners...

[Chance]

More here.

http://bicycling.com/blogs/thisjustin/2011/11/30/shimano-dura-ace-goes-to-11-in-2013/
Thanks that’s great info.

It’s interesting that they mention new cranks will be MTB-like in that the spider will have four arms yet the picture shows the FC-9000 with a more traditional 5 arms. Not sure how long it would take to get used to four arms on a road bike. For now the 5-arm picture speaks louder to me than the rumors. Seriously hope it stays five.

And that touches on one of the most important things mentioned in this thread’s initial post – that 52-36 cranks would be available. If all cranks remain 5 arms with normal 110 or 130 BCD then Shimano will be offering 3 of each for the first time. We may just be seeing a gradual shift towards making 110 the new normal. If we could buy 50-34, 52-36 and 52-38 in 110 BCD what would be the need to go with 130 cranks? Maybe for time trialing? Other than for pro TTs this may be the beginning of the end for 130 BCD.

[Chance]

P.S. -- Maybe a few small wheel bikes too.

If we could buy 50-34, 52-36 and 52-38 in 110 BCD what would be the need to go with 130 cranks? Maybe for time trialing? Other than for pro TTs this may be the beginning of the end for 130 BCD.

[Fixed]

gears are dumb, technology is dumb, 14 speed is dumb
nice cheers :beer:

[troymac]

gears are dumb, technology is dumb, 14 speed is dumb
You can always walk ...lol

[Z3c]

Gave the electric thing some thought today; how does Sram retain a single shift lever and go electric? Understand that rear is easy as it really is just an a/b thing anyway, but how do they make an electric rear shifter with one paddle so the function mirrors their mechanical? Seems like a real issue for them since "Double-tap" is their cornerstone; possible cause for their lagging?

[straightegde]

the 6700 and 5700 shift innards being the same as 7900.

Is this true?

[oldpotatoe]

Is this true?

I haven't torn them apart to see if they are exact but the basic mechanism is the same. They all changed after 7900, when they all went to hidden housing.

[dana_e]

More wheels to carry

Will duraace and campy 11 play nice and work together

That would be nice

[Volant]

That's it. To ensure that I have enough 9-spd components to last the rest of my life and the life of the folks to whom I will bequeath my bike stuff I'm buying 25 cranksets, 50 BB's, Fders and Rders, 75 cassettes and shifters, and 300 chains.

That way they can do whatever they want, and I won't give a rat's @ss.

Only buying so few? You're obviously not putting in enough miles! :beer:

[dd74]

Wouldn't 12 to 14 gears mean less cassette variety as 12 to 14 gears should allow for a wider spread of gearing for uphill and downhill riding?

[Chance]

Wouldn't 12 to 14 gears mean less cassette variety as 12 to 14 gears should allow for a wider spread of gearing for uphill and downhill riding?
It appears there might be some connection there if we look at previous offerings. The down side may be that if taken to extremes it will force some riders to have gears they wouldn’t purchase otherwise.

Shimano’s web page shows 8 cassette offerings for Dura Ace 10 speed. Two of them seem too similar which would lead to elimination of one of them anyway (11-27 and 11-28). Listed offerings (although there may be others not listed) for 10-speed include:
11-21, 11-23, 11-25, 11-27, 11-28, 12-23, 12-25 and 12-27.

Interesting to note that for Ultegra they only list 5 offerings:
11-23, 11-25, 11-28, 12-23 and 12-25.

By comparison the Shimano 11-speed preliminary spec sheet shows only 5 cassettes:
11-23, 11-25, 11-28, 12-25 and 12-28

From this preliminary information where they dropped both the DA 11-21 and 12-23 it appears Shimano thinks that having cassettes with 19-20-21 cogs back-to-back is unnecessary. Using that logic if they add even more gears beyond 11 cogs it would likely eliminate the 11-23 and 12-25 at 12 cogs, and so on. At 14 cogs an 11-29 might be about as tight as most would want to buy because it’d be close ratio enough. Maybe they’d be down to one road cassette at that point. :rolleyes:

Your question shows that we are quickly approaching a point of diminishing returns when adding more cogs unless we switch to single chainrings or rethink road cassettes to include something like 11-36 range.

[mapleleafs-13]

so where do they go from here? do you really need to go to 12 speed then 13? is there gonna be enough room?

[Dustin]

Why not just jump to 14 today and skip making us "upgrade" one cog at a time?


**** Everything, We're Doing Five Blades
By James M. Kilts
CEO and President, The Gillette Company
February 18, 2004 | ISSUE 40•07
http://www.theonion.com/issue/4007/

Would someone tell me how this happened? We were the ****ing vanguard of shaving in this country. The Gillette Mach3 was the razor to own. Then the other guy came out with a three-blade razor. Were we scared? Hell, no. Because we hit back with a little thing called the Mach3Turbo. That's three blades and an aloe strip. For moisture. But you know what happened next? Shut up, I'm telling you what happened—the bastards went to four blades. Now we're standing around with our cocks in our hands, selling three blades and a strip. Moisture or no, suddenly we're the chumps. Well, **** it. We're going to five blades.

Sure, we could go to four blades next, like the competition. That seems like the logical thing to do. After all, three worked out pretty well, and four is the next number after three. So let's play it safe. Let's make a thicker aloe strip and call it the Mach3SuperTurbo. Why innovate when we can follow? Oh, I know why: Because we're a business, that's why!

You think it's crazy? It is crazy. But I don't give a ****. From now on, we're the ones who have the edge in the multi-blade game. Are they the best a man can get? ****, no. Gillette is the best a man can get.

What part of this don't you understand? If two blades is good, and three blades is better, obviously five blades would make us the best ****ing razor that ever existed. Comprende? We didn't claw our way to the top of the razor game by clinging to the two-blade industry standard. We got here by taking chances. Well, five blades is the biggest chance of all.

Here's the report from Engineering. Someone put it in the bathroom: I want to wipe my ass with it. They don't tell me what to invent—I tell them. And I'm telling them to stick two more blades in there. I don't care how. Make the blades so thin they're invisible. Put some on the handle. I don't care if they have to cram the fifth blade in perpendicular to the other four, just do it!

You're taking the "safety" part of "safety razor" too literally, grandma. Cut the strings and soar. Let's hit it. Let's roll. This is our chance to make razor history. Let's dream big. All you have to do is say that five blades can happen, and it will happen. If you aren't on board, then **** you. And if you're on the board, then **** you and your father. Hey, if I'm the only one who'll take risks, I'm sure as hell happy to hog all the glory when the five-blade razor becomes the shaving tool for the U.S. of "this is how we shave now" A.

People said we couldn't go to three. It'll cost a fortune to manufacture, they said. Well, we did it. Now some egghead in a lab is screaming "Five's crazy?" Well, perhaps he'd be more comfortable in the labs at Norelco, working on ****ing electrics. Rotary blades, my white ass!

Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe we should just ride in Bic's wake and make pens. Ha! Not on your ****ing life! The day I shadow a penny-ante outfit like Bic is the day I leave the razor game for good, and that won't happen until the day I die!

The market? Listen, we make the market. All we have to do is put her out there with a little jingle. It's as easy as, "Hey, shaving with anything less than five blades is like scraping your beard off with a dull hatchet." Or "You'll be so smooth, I could snort lines off of your chin." Try "Your neck is going to be so friggin' soft, someone's gonna walk up and tie a goddamn Cub Scout kerchief under it."

I know what you're thinking now: What'll people say? Mew mew mew. Oh, no, what will people say?! Grow the **** up. When you're on top, people talk. That's the price you pay for being on top. Which Gillette is, always has been, and forever shall be, Amen, five blades, sweet Jesus in heaven.

Stop. I just had a stroke of genius. Are you ready? Open your mouth, baby birds, cause Mama's about to drop you one sweet, fat nightcrawler. Here she comes: Put another aloe strip on that ****er, too. That's right. Five blades, two strips, and make the second one lather. You heard me—the second strip lathers. It's a whole new way to think about shaving. Don't question it. Don't say a word. Just key the music, and call the chorus girls, because we're on the edge—the razor's edge—and I feel like dancing.

[mapleleafs-13]

Why not just jump to 14 today and skip making us "upgrade" one cog at a time?



cause they don't want to miss a step where they could potentially make money off of you, it's just a process, why give you the whole turkey when they can make you gradually move up

[Dustin]

'twas a rhetorical question.

[povofphilos]

looks like there are finally pictures of the new group.


http://imgur.com/a/oUbTE

[tsarpepe]

They HAD TO do carbon shifters, didn't they! Grab the alloy DAs while you can. The end is coming!

Apocalyptically Yours,
PP

[soulspinner]

I should have stayed at 8 campy ergo

Worked great

I have bikes with ergo 8, 10 ,11. All work great when adjusted right, although Im prolly not gonna keep the 8 speed forever it has been tough to kill(on the wet bike).

[jpw]

looks like there are finally pictures of the new group.


http://imgur.com/a/oUbTE

Any weight specs?

[christian]

Holy ugly crankset.

[jpw]

Holy ugly crankset.

Certainly not a style that will appeal to Campagnolo fans. It is a challenging look. Very techno Japanese robot. Would look good in a Ridley Scott science fiction movie.

[TimD]

... a "direct mount" brake?

[christian]

Certainly not a style that will appeal to Campagnolo fans.Ok, ok. Guilty as charged. But I wouldn't want my Moots to wear that either. Or my fishing pole!

[AngryScientist]

nermind ugly, does someone know why they did this? sure looks like the small ring in particular would be less stiff this way, no?

http://i.imgur.com/TZwfr.jpg

[oldpotatoe]

nermind ugly, does someone know why they did this? sure looks like the small ring in particular would be less stiff this way, no?

http://i.imgur.com/TZwfr.jpg

Definition of COMPATIBLE

1
: capable of existing together in harmony <compatible theories> <compatible people>

As in not compatible, In other words, they will say ya gotta have a 11s crank...but like Campagnolo, I'll 'bet' that a 10s crank will work just fine.

Wonder if shimano will make a BB30 version...last to go there(at least Campagnolo has cups). NOT that it's any kind of advantage, in spite of what the marketeers say.

[firerescuefin]

Ok, ok. Guilty as charged. But I wouldn't want my Moots to wear that either. Or my fishing pole!

Christian...you know it's only a matter of time until one of your little guys is going to want to ride a carbon disc/ SRAM 14s bike:) You better start the indoctrination bike classes early. :no:

[Germany_chris]

It's interesting, I'm sure it will sell well.

[Uncle Jam's Army]

nermind ugly, does someone know why they did this? sure looks like the small ring in particular would be less stiff this way, no?

http://i.imgur.com/TZwfr.jpg

Something about the fifth arm adding nothing to stiffness so they did away with it. That's the one piece of this new groupset I just can't get around to saying, "Yeah, I'd use that."

The whole 11s groupset (I assume mechanical, not Di2) is supposed to be around 1905 grams.

[jimdohertyjim]

Those brakes don't look there is much clearance for bigger tires on there.

[bart998]

time to cut to the chase and just go a CVT setup of some kind... a lot of cars and some motorcycles have gone that way already.

[old_fat_and_slow]

...

[jpw]

...but it is alloy. If you don't want carbon this is 'it'.

[stusf]

Definition of COMPATIBLE

1
: capable of existing together in harmony <compatible theories> <compatible people>

As in not compatible, In other words, they will say ya gotta have a 11s crank...but like Campagnolo, I'll 'bet' that a 10s crank will work just fine.

Wonder if shimano will make a BB30 version...last to go there(at least Campagnolo has cups). NOT that it's any kind of advantage, in spite of what the marketeers say.

No BB30 from Shimano, they're sticking with 24mm.

[stusf]

Definition of COMPATIBLE

1
: capable of existing together in harmony <compatible theories> <compatible people>

As in not compatible, In other words, they will say ya gotta have a 11s crank...but like Campagnolo, I'll 'bet' that a 10s crank will work just fine.

Wonder if shimano will make a BB30 version...last to go there(at least Campagnolo has cups). NOT that it's any kind of advantage, in spite of what the marketeers say.

No BB30 from Shimano, they're sticking with 24mm.

[dave thompson]

... a "direct mount" brake?

I don't know what 'direct mount' is Shimano-speak for but the brakes have some interesting mechanics on them.

[jpw]

Does this crank work with SRM, or is it still going to be 7800?

[Grant McLean]

They HAD TO do carbon shifters, didn't they! Grab the alloy DAs while you can. The end is coming!

Apocalyptically Yours,
PP

??

Dura Ace 7900 levers have been carbon since 2008.

http://www.bikeradar.com/gallery/article/first-ride-dura-ace-7900-17586/3/

[ergott]

time to cut to the chase and just go a CVT setup of some kind... a lot of cars and some motorcycles have gone that way already.

They can pry my car's manual transmission from my dead body. Still not sure I would be happy with those flappy paddles that call themselves manual shifting. I like to row;-)

[jpw]

I don't see why anyone would change from 7900 to this. One cog makes no difference. 14 cogs is another story...for another time.

[Bob Ross]

Gave the electric thing some thought today; how does Sram retain a single shift lever and go electric? Understand that rear is easy as it really is just an a/b thing anyway, but how do they make an electric rear shifter with one paddle so the function mirrors their mechanical? Seems like a real issue for them since "Double-tap" is their cornerstone; possible cause for their lagging?

Since SRAM's "taps" are really just different throw lengths on a lever, you could easily differentiate between Short and Long throws with either A) a pair of optical sensors and an LED in the lever end, or B) a pair of discrete electrical contacts with different resistance values and a conductive wiper in the lever end.

[nova]

that crank is the worst.

[pdmtong]

that crank is the worst.

XTR inspired...the 5th arm looks odd to me though

[c-record]

One of the ugliest cranks I've seen.

[povofphilos]

i believe these will grow on everyone. im sure the first time anyone saw 7900 crankset they probably thought they were ugly. . that rear derailleur looks awesome.

[christian]

i believe these will grow on everyone. im sure the first time anyone saw 7900 crankset they probably thought they were ugly. Well, until today, 7900 cranks were the ugliest. Well, I don't know, maybe 7800 were uglier.

[4Rings6Stars]

i believe these will grow on everyone. im sure the first time anyone saw 7900 crankset they probably thought they were ugly. . that rear derailleur looks awesome.

+1 the RD does look great.

Anybody have pics of the FD?

The crank is a bit fugly but I'm sure you're right and we will get used to it.

[Kirk Pacenti]

I don't know what 'direct mount' is Shimano-speak for but the brakes have some interesting mechanics on them.

I am not sure that this brake is the new 'direct mount' type. But on the DM brake, there are two small bolts that mount the brake directly to the fork, similar to an old 'center pull' brake.

[Black Dog]

The big space between the mounts falls where the crank arms are vertical and thus at the point of lowest power input on the pedal stroke. It will be used as a marketing BS point in order to justify a shimano only design.

nermind ugly, does someone know why they did this? sure looks like the small ring in particular would be less stiff this way, no?

http://i.imgur.com/TZwfr.jpg

[povofphilos]

+1 the RD does look great.

Anybody have pics of the FD?

The crank is a bit fugly but I'm sure you're right and we will get used to it.

http://thedailygrind.robdamanii.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/da9k-front.jpg

[Black Dog]

The original article was in Japanese and you are reading a translation. But it does seem to be the mount points integrated into the forks. ***? So many great solutions to non-problems.

Here is a link to the original article. Get google to translate it and enjoy.
http://sankei.jp.msn.com/sports/news/120421/oth12042123210025-n1.htm

I don't know what 'direct mount' is Shimano-speak for but the brakes have some interesting mechanics on them.

[Rueda Tropical]

really, how many of you use all available gears?

In flat as a pancake South Florida I use 2 or 3 cogs.

Tough to get excited about adding more complexity, cost and weight when 1 x 5 speeds would be overkill for local conditions. I bet most cyclists down here have never used their front derailleur.

[Chance]

The original article was in Japanese and you are reading a translation. But it does seem to be the mount points integrated into the forks. ***? So many great solutions to non-problems.


It's not that existing calipers are a problem in themselves. Just that allowing the fork or seatstays to serve as support for brake forces "should" be more effective than having to build a stiffer caliper to do the same. The potential for improvement is there. Whether it materializes or not is yet to be seen.

It's not that different than the bosses on MTB or cross bikes carrying much of the brake loads. The main difference (which is hard to understand why it's done that way without seeing the brakes) is that the pivot is above the rim instead of below. Seems like a "potentially" great idea to me although we need to see pictures of the brakes first.

[TMB]

i believe these will grow on everyone. im sure the first time anyone saw 7900 crankset they probably thought they were ugly. . that rear derailleur looks awesome.

I still think the 7900 crankset is hideous.

[Andrewlcox]

In flat as a pancake South Florida I use 2 or 3 cogs.

Tough to get excited about adding more complexity, cost and weight when 1 x 5 speeds would be overkill for local conditions. I bet most cyclists down here have never used their front derailleur.

I hear you loud and clear here in the flat lands of Illinois. I am strongly considering going without a FD on my next build to keep the clutter down.

[TMB]

With Campagnolo EPS at $5400 ( I didn't know that until today), what will be the pricing on this when it hits the market.

I don' t think I have a complete bike that cost $5400, actually I know I don't.

[Chance]

I hear you loud and clear here in the flat lands of Illinois. I am strongly considering going without a FD on my next build to keep the clutter down.

What seems interesting to me is that an 11-28 cassette alone has greater range than a 53/42 double with 12-23 cassette. And beyond that, with the "new" 11-30 and 11-32 road cassettes that are coming, double rings could become a choice for many if only there was a great way to eliminate the FD and unused left shifter.

[rain dogs]

I still think 7800 cranks are damn ugly.

I still think 7900 are ugly

9000... damn. Is Shimano even trying to make a desirable product?

[choke]

Is Shimano even trying to make a desirable product?They are.....:D

[TMB]

I am not sure that this brake is the new 'direct mount' type. But on the DM brake, there are two small bolts that mount the brake directly to the fork, similar to an old 'center pull' brake.

Ok, I apologize if I have misunderstood this, but ...

Your frame has to be specially made to be able to mount the brakesets?

Really?

[Germany_chris]

With Campagnolo EPS at $5400 ( I didn't know that until today), what will be the pricing on this when it hits the market.

I don' t think I have a complete bike that cost $5400, actually I know I don't.

That'll push high end production bikes to the 10k mark…customs a fair bit over that..heck now that I think about it you could spend 10k on wheels and group set. :eek:

I can just see me trying to talk my wife into that ..

[54ny77]

tiagra at $2500 msrp will seem like a bargain....:p

what's next, hoarding ultegra 6700 or da 7900 10sp mechanical groups?

heck, i'm still hoarding 7800....

That'll push high end production bikes to the 10k mark…customs a fair bit over that..heck now that I think about it you could spend 10k on wheels and group set. :eek:

I can just see me trying to talk my with into that ..

[povofphilos]

sorry,my mistake. the new cranks will grow on a few.

not sure why anyone hasnt pointed out that it looks like a compact crank arm but has standard rings??

[jpw]

Is the heel clearance any better though? 7900 isn't great.

[Kirk Pacenti]

sorry,my mistake. the new cranks will grow on a few.

not sure why anyone hasnt pointed out that it looks like a compact crank arm but has standard rings??

I like them already; much, much better looking than the last iteration. But then again, I am mostly an MTB guy...

Cheers,
KP

[soulspinner]

All this makes me glad Im a Campy guy. And Im still trying to get used to the look of 11 speed hoods. Drill into the fork to mount the brakes? What carbon fork manufacturer is gonna warranty a fork that has holes not from the factory? Did I miss something?:confused:

[Kirk Pacenti]

What carbon fork manufacturer is gonna warranty a fork that has holes not from the factory? Did I miss something?:confused:

The forks / frames are going to be purpose built. What will be interesting to see is how many forks / frames offer this as an option.

Cheers,
KP

[jpw]

I don't get it, the brake thing. What extra/ new/ repositioned holes? I don't anything in the photo of the caliper. HELP!:confused:

[Nooch]

for all the complaints on the crankset, I'm just seeing a way for a powermeter to slot in there a la quarq -- perhaps shimano is working on something in house for that?

[oldpotatoe]

... a "direct mount" brake?

Don't think so..center bolt mount like all DP calipers....I don't think even shimano has the horsepower to effect all road frame/fork makers into two bolt mount brakes..

[Kirk Pacenti]

Don't think so..center bolt mount like all DP calipers....I don't think even shimano has the horsepower to effect all road frame/fork makers into two bolt mount brakes..

Didn't you see the pics?

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=1125603&postcount=105

The drawing is right out of the 2012/2013 tech specs manual.

My guess is frame / fork makers will offer 'special' versions of their top models to accommodate this design, like they did for internal Di2 routing.

Cheers,
KP

[jmoore]

:yawn:

and that is an ugly crank.

[oldpotatoe]

Didn't you see the pics?

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=1125603&postcount=105

The drawing is right out of the 2012/2013 tech specs manual.

My guess is frame / fork makers will offer 'special' versions of their top models to accommodate this design, like they did for internal Di2 routing.

Cheers,
KP

Nope, didn't, then it's official, another answer to a not asked question..imagine that.

[Black Dog]

The pics do not seem to show a two bolt mount. It looks like a single bolt mount.

Didn't you see the pics?

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=1125603&postcount=105

The drawing is right out of the 2012/2013 tech specs manual.

My guess is frame / fork makers will offer 'special' versions of their top models to accommodate this design, like they did for internal Di2 routing.

Cheers,
KP

http://forums.thepaceline.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=94071&stc=1&d=1335225414

[astaft]

Will 11 speed Dura-ace be compatible with Campy 11?
How close or different is the cog spacing.

[Grant McLean]

Ok, I apologize if I have misunderstood this, but ...

Your frame has to be specially made to be able to mount the brakesets?

Really?

there are two options:
the standard mount brakes, and also the direct mount versions likely for a TT design.

-g

[EDS]

It's not that existing calipers are a problem in themselves. Just that allowing the fork or seatstays to serve as support for brake forces "should" be more effective than having to build a stiffer caliper to do the same. The potential for improvement is there. Whether it materializes or not is yet to be seen.

It's not that different than the bosses on MTB or cross bikes carrying much of the brake loads. The main difference (which is hard to understand why it's done that way without seeing the brakes) is that the pivot is above the rim instead of below. Seems like a "potentially" great idea to me although we need to see pictures of the brakes first.

I would guess the "direct-mount" variation is for TT bikes/hidden brakes.

[Kirk Pacenti]

The pics do not seem to show a two bolt mount. It looks like a single bolt mount.



http://forums.thepaceline.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=94071&stc=1&d=1335225414

Agreed; and exactly what I said in my first post... They likely have two versions of the brake.

Cheers,
KP

[torquer]

Will 11 speed Dura-ace be compatible with Campy 11?
How close or different is the cog spacing.
No reason not to, but I wouldn't hold my breath. To make matters worse, "almost the same" spacing, when applied across a bigger number of cogs, makes proper engagement of the end cogs that much more difficult.

I'll show my age and complain about how, back in the day, anybody's chains, cassettes, derrailers & cranks worked with anybody else's (5- or 6-speed, downtube friction shifters.) Sun Tour (of otherwise blessed memory) started us down the road to brand-exclusivity heck with their indexed shifting. Now, manufacturers are telling you you need to buy everything new (practically including bottle cages) if you want to upgrade to their latest and greatest.

Not to fuel the C vs. S flames (after all, it takes two to not agree on cog spacing), but one of the big issues about Campy that has kept me from trying them again (and I'm sure they work great) has been their seemingly perverse insistance on unique "standards." The worst example, ATMO, was the "110 BCD" crank with a single bolt at 113mm. At least Shimano comes up with a plausible technical explanation in support of their new crankset bolt pattern.

I'll be interested to see if Shimano adapts Campy's 11-speed cog spacing, or if they adopt Vincenza's business model of screwing the customer to spite the opposition.

[Grant McLean]

back in the day, anybody's chains, cassettes, derrailers & cranks worked with anybody else's (5- or 6-speed, downtube friction shifters.)



Equal opportunity for crap shifting, those were the days!


-g

[torquer]

Question is, would I trade the legs & lungs I had then for my current carbononium gear? No real answer to that one.

Real question is, not do you need to improve your products, but do you need to carve out exclusive market niches? I was trying to point out that Campy had alienated at least one potential customer, but also suspected that Shimano wasn't that much better. Hmmm, that only leaves SRAM among the righteous...

[ajz07]

Question is, would I trade the legs & lungs I had then for my current carbononium gear? No real answer to that one.

Real question is, not do you need to improve your products, but do you need to carve out exclusive market niches? I was trying to point out that Campy had alienated at least one potential customer, but also suspected that Shimano wasn't that much better. Hmmm, that only leaves SRAM among the righteous...

I dont know you can really call SRAM all that righteous. Yes their cogset works with shimano (although I tend to think that was more to try and steal some of their market share than it was to be nice to the consumer). But with SRAM RED 2012 they say that the new FD, shifters and crankset are not backwards compatible.... of course we all now know this to be false (thank you velonews), but I mean they wanted you to buy everything new just to get better front gear shifting. I s'pose you cant really hold it against them, all of these guys are in it for the profit. Heck, I would be too if I was a bike part manufacturer.

[ultraman6970]

Wouldnt surprise me that they come up with a new hub and freehub body for 11, thing that shimano users somehow are used to during all these years, and no... campagnolo has not screwed up anybody IMO because after all, all the 10 parts work fine between the models, 11 parts works between the different models and to make the situation even better, you dont need new wheels since campagnolo 9 times.

Shimano with the time had to play rough because their plataform was not enough, they have changed the darn freehub bodies so many times that personally i dont understand heck of it, neither a reason to do it. This is a new dura ace and I bet you that they will find a way to change the freehub body shape to adapt the 11, the spacing IMO has to be close to campagnolo unless they do too many changes.

Remember the group in the pictures might not be the final product, unless shimano this time is nice to everybody and makes no changes to the freehub body, this would help a lot the used and manufacturers. IMO they will change it because is too short is just thing of seeing the conversion cassettes how they fit. Another problem I see... sincerely the shimano freehub bodies suck, not even close to the durability you can get from a campy one. Another reason for a change.

cheers...

I'll be interested to see if Shimano adapts Campy's 11-speed cog spacing, or if they adopt Vincenza's business model of screwing the customer to spite the opposition.

[torquer]

Two ways to screw (or not screw) the customer: I was thinking about potential customers (like me, using one brand) who face a high cost of entry for making the switch. The other way is screwing your existing customers with forward/backward compatibility problems.
I did find Campy's ability to upgrade their integrated shifter internals attractive, but I understand that is no longer the case with 11 speed. Likewise, Shimano has offered the same cassette spline since the days of 8 speeds (well, the second version of 8 speed, anyway). Bummer if they change to accomodate 11; but they probably don't count on my purchasing this stuff anyway; I've only moved on from 7700 on one bike when the brifter went south.

[Hawker]

I'm just hoping for a Dura-Ace compact. And hopefully it is a lot more attractive than what is being offered presently. And polished would be nice instead of all the black and grey stuff.

Ack! Never mind I just saw the photos of the new group. More black and grey crap...hate it.

[jpw]

I'm just hoping for a Dura-Ace compact. And hopefully it is a lot more attractive than what is being offered presently. And polished would be nice instead of all the black and grey stuff.

Ack! Never mind I just saw the photos of the new group. More black and grey crap...hate it.

When you're riding the bike that's the last thing you'll be looking at.

7900 crankset - think of a flower with five petals and a stem. It's not that ugly.

[oldpotatoe]

Will 11 speed Dura-ace be compatible with Campy 11?
How close or different is the cog spacing.

I have 'heard' that since it's problematic to shove 11 cogs into the relatively 'short' shimano FH body(short when compared to Campagnolo), a new hub/FH is on the way. Whether or not you will be able to put a shimano 8/9/10s cogset on it, unknown by me.

[Hard Fit]

Where the 11 speed is nicer is when you need those low gears and don't want huge gaps between gears. With the smaller front chain ring and a 32 tooth in the rear, many might be able to get away from a triple and still have really high gears and very low gears. With a 5,6 speed you have to keep the range smaller in order to keep the differences between gears reasonable. These improvements really help us non-racers who can't climb a mountain with a corn cob for gearing.

[Rudy]

I should have stayed at 8 campy ergo

Worked great

Sitting here looking at four Campagnolo eight speed bikes and a bunch of brand new spares. Suits me fine!

And I don't have to crane my neck to spot the SR 12 speed...2x6, that is.

[rphetteplace]

sram is going to 11 speed.......

[dd74]

How many more gears can be put on an axle, and a frame widened, before it takes on the width of a motorcycle?

Before then, I wonder if manufacturers might go to very lightweight triple cranks to compensate for whatever 15 to 20 gears could provide a bicycle.

[oldpotatoe]

sram is going to 11 speed.......

Nope, they are going to electronic 8s....with hydraulic disc brakes and spokeless LH rear wheels..kinda like a 'lefty'.

[Kirk Pacenti]

I've said before, I've got nothing against electronic shifting, but I am holding out for wireless...

But something occurred to me, that might be an interesting / useful use of electronic shifting. Has anyone hacked Di2 so that they can program an "automatic" transmission? It's conceivable that you could program the system for a certain 'cadence' and it would automatically shift to the next higher or lower gear to maintain that cadence, within a couple RPM. (heart rate, wattage, calories, other metrics?) It could also be programed to eliminate redundant gear combinations, perhaps reducing the number of cogs needed...???

I'm certain I'm not the first to consider this, are there any such threads here? I am more interested in the theory than the practical application in this case. Manual / cable actuated shifting has worked pretty well for me for the last 25 years...


Cheers,
KP

[Mark McM]

IBut something occurred to me, that might be an interesting / useful use of electronic shifting. Has anyone hacked Di2 so that they can program an "automatic" transmission? It's conceivable that you could program the system for a certain 'cadence' and it would automatically shift to the next higher or lower gear to maintain that cadence, within a couple RPM.

You mean like the Nexus Auto-D (http://www.shimano.com/publish/content/global_cycle/en/sg/index/products/city___comfort_bike/auto_inter-3.html), Shimano's original electronic automatic shifting system?

[Andrewlcox]

That's would be a pretty cool idea for the Di2 System. My Trek Lime has a Shimano automatic 3 speed gear system that works pretty good for the bike path.

[Kirk Pacenti]

You mean like the Nexus Auto-D (http://www.shimano.com/publish/content/global_cycle/en/sg/index/products/city___comfort_bike/auto_inter-3.html), Shimano's original electronic automatic shifting system?

I had not seen this before... how does it work?

[Grant McLean]

I had not seen this before... how does it work?

I'm surprised you've never come across it before, it's been around since the 90s.

Cadence sensor near the cranks, there are several settings, as well as manual.
Not rocket science really, they could roll out this for Di2 as well.

g

[Kirk Pacenti]

I'm surprised you've never come across it before, it's been around since the 90s.

Cadence sensor near the cranks, there are several settings, as well as manual.
Not rocket science really, they could roll out this for Di2 as well.

g

Seems like a no-brainer. I bet the guys at Fairwheel could probably do it, I know they've hacked Di2 before.

I rarely know about stuff that's not DA, Ultegra, XTR, XT level product. Partly because I'm a bike snob and partly because I've not spent any significant time in a retail shop...The few retailers I know seem to have a much broader knowledge of what's out there than I do. I only know what I'm interested in... true to a fault maybe.

Cheers,
KP

[Grant McLean]

I only know what I'm interested in... true to a fault maybe.

Cheers,
KP

I just happen to get copies of the shimano catalog every year
and tend to look through it cover to cover, picking up stuff like that,
even though one almost never sees the real thing, it's always in the book!

g

[FixedNotBroken]

nermind ugly, does someone know why they did this? sure looks like the small ring in particular would be less stiff this way, no?

http://i.imgur.com/TZwfr.jpg

I bet they are saving a ton of weight with this new design..that's for sure.

[Grant McLean]

Saw this on Weightweenies, looks pretty good from this angle, (imho)

-g

[FixedNotBroken]

Saw this on Weightweenies, looks pretty good from this angle, (imho)

-g

How much do you think the crankset weighs?

[reggiebaseball]

630grams on the nose for the crankset.

Of course they did this new design to make the rings weaker! Seriously, what do you think?
It's Shimano - they did this revamp to make everything 15% stiffer and about 600% uglier.

[jpw]

Saw this on Weightweenies, looks pretty good from this angle, (imho)

-g

...but the name is upside down! I'm not buying that.

The crank arm looks very sculptured.

[FixedNotBroken]

Carbon spine as well? I can't tell.

[ultraman6970]

If they want to save a ton of weight why not just with 3 holes and 2 arms?? one in the back of the crank and tow at the opposite side like in 90 degrees each.

[FixedNotBroken]

Is Team Sky riding this for the Tour of Romandie?

[Grant McLean]

Is Team Sky riding this for the Tour of Romandie?

I think most are still on Di2, but the wheels have been making the rounds
for a while now (spot just the single 'shimano' logo) which is interesting at
SKY since several riders there have their own wheel deals. So for them
to ride 11 speed, they need to have wheels that take the new spacing.
Must be a nightmare for team mechs to keep it all straight who's on what!

g

[crownjewelwl]

http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/05/gallery/giro-tech-sky-riding-prototype-11-speed-shimano-dura-ace_217631

[Uncle Jam's Army]

I am intrigued by the new wheels in the last picture. Seems they are copying the new Zipp Firecrest and Enve Smart designs.

[ultraman6970]

Probably are not even shimano wheels, super hard to put new decals to the rims and hubs, right?

If they went to 11 then it has to have a freehub body similar in length to the campagnolo, either way is extremely hard for a manufacture like shimano just take the old shimano 10 fh body, put a longer one and maybe add spacers, right? :D

Another simpler solution to the problem is a longer neck lock ring and have the last 3 cogs in a cluster. Or just do what AC did but with thinner spacers and a long neck lockring, done. Then they dont have to respace or do anything else to the wheel, just go and install it..

[nightfend]

It is a Shimano wheel. The new hubs are 131mm in width. No one should notice the extra 1mm of width when inserting into their frames. Also, the dish is slightly worse on the rear wheel now. There was a comparison diagram of the old and new hubs floating around recently in the last few weeks that showed the changes.

[Jason E]

It is a Shimano wheel. The new hubs are 131mm in width. No one should notice the extra 1mm of width when inserting into their frames. Also, the dish is slightly worse on the rear wheel now. There was a comparison diagram of the old and new hubs floating around recently in the last few weeks that showed the changes.

Sooooooooooooo now i need new wheels??!!??!!

[grumble]

Can I...? Ah crap...

[ultraman6970]

Well it depends, you should have gone campy... :P

If the freehub body is the same probably u wont need new wheels, if the freehub body is different then you might need new wheels and think seriously to go campagnolo :P

Sooooooooooooo now i need new wheels??!!??!!

[grumble]

Can I...? Ah crap...

[MealsOnWheels]

http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/05/gallery/giro-tech-sky-riding-prototype-11-speed-shimano-dura-ace_217631

Well I will be in the market for an early adopters slightly 10 Speed DA used groupo