The $500 Chinese Dogma

[don compton]

I am truly a hardcore capitalist, but today's world is a different animal. A former poster sent us a site about a certain Italian frameset selling for less than 500 pounds. We are just a bunch of pigeons. A few ( Wall Street, Armstrong, whatever) are making horrendous profits, while displacing jobs in our home.
Are we so stupid that we can't see this?

[rice rocket]

Ride whatever you want to ride.

[rustychisel]

the market (ie consumers) will do what they can see as a short term profitable exercise. So too, as it happens, will our politicians. They see the next news cycle, the next electoral contest, the next opportunity to blame their opponents. Nothing more.

Much is said about the lack of vision and the lack of statesman like qualities, but it was ever thus, being a human failing. By the way, don't forget Metternich and Bismarck were reviled in their [respective] times.

And to your specific point? I'd ride the snot out of it. If it broke, so much the poorer... but another way of looking at it is 'these manufacturers have stripped away the mystique and the bloated costs and the middlemen to offer their product to the masses at a reasonable pricepoint'. Is that so wrong?

[that guy]

Caveat emptor

[don compton]

the market (ie consumers) will do what they can see as a short term profitable exercise. So too, as it happens, will our politicians. They see the next news cycle, the next electoral contest, the next opportunity to blame their opponents. Nothing more.

Much is said about the lack of vision and the lack of statesman like qualities, but it was ever thus, being a human failing. By the way, don't forget Metternich and Bismarck were reviled in their [respective] times.

And to your specific point? I'd ride the snot out of it. If it broke, so much the poorer... but another way of looking at it is 'these manufacturers have stripped away the mystique and the bloated costs and the middlemen to offer their product to the masses at a reasonable pricepoint'. Is that so wrong?
Have a nice day Serotta employees>

[rustychisel]

Yeah, I know Don, and I know I'm playing Devil's Advocate, but in part my response is to the fact that you introduced your remarks with 'I'm a hardcore capitalist...'.

The game is afoot and is being played as hard as anything Andrew Carnegie did in his time. The Chinese - a broad stroke statement coming - know the art of reducing things to manageable simplicity (cost vs profit) whilst obfuscating wildly (and calling it cultural imperative).

[Rueda Tropical]

'these manufacturers have stripped away the mystique and the bloated costs and the middlemen to offer their product to the masses at a reasonable pricepoint'. Is that so wrong?

You got that wrong. It should read "these manufacturers have stripped the quality, performance, innovation and safety out of these products to make a quick buck." Is that so wrong?

[majorpat]

In the sprint to the bottom, things lose their soul. For some products soul matters.

[JMerring]

I am truly a hardcore capitalist, but today's world is a different animal. A former poster sent us a site about a certain Italian frameset selling for less than 500 pounds. We are just a bunch of pigeons. A few ( Wall Street, Armstrong, whatever) are making horrendous profits, while displacing jobs in our home.
Are we so stupid that we can't see this?

Yes, the collective we is that stupid.

[oldpotatoe]

I am truly a hardcore capitalist, but today's world is a different animal. A former poster sent us a site about a certain Italian frameset selling for less than 500 pounds. We are just a bunch of pigeons. A few ( Wall Street, Armstrong, whatever) are making horrendous profits, while displacing jobs in our home.
Are we so stupid that we can't see this?

Yep. Vote with your $ and vote with your vote. All you can do.

This sort of thing has been going on the day after somebody invented the word, "capitalism'.

[Rueda Tropical]

For a while I did a lot of ad, package and web design for auto aftermarket tuner parts companies.

That industry started out as companies making aftermarket parts to make cars perform better. At this point the actual performance segment of tuner parts is a small slice of the market. Most of it is cheap, poorly made Chinese manufactured bling that looks like the performance parts only shinier. More often then not these add ons and replacements actually makes performance worse.

[1centaur]

It's not about capitalism, it's about business practices, and certain business practices existed long before capitalism was conceived as a system. I seem to remember unexceptional lo cost work in Soviet Russia where capitalism did not create a choice for consumers. People are people, capitalism tries to harness that for the good of all while other systems deny it to the detriment of most. It's very interesting to see the early negative outputs of a market economy repeating themselves in China, people being people. I presume a balanced system (one with desirable checks and balances) will eventually evolve as it has elsewhere, if it's allowed to.

[steampunk]

there is no moral justification for Intellectual Property theft. that's where the real problem is - with those who conspire to manufacture and sell counterfeit goods (regardless of what it is, a Pinarello frame, Louis Vuitton bags, pharmaceuticals -scary-, etc.).

i believe there is simply no concept of IP theft, more so in some global regions than others. money is to be made from consumers and buck is a buck. or rather, a yuan is a yuan.

[Wimpy]

I am truly a hardcore capitalist, but today's world is a different animal. A former poster sent us a site about a certain Italian frameset selling for less than 500 pounds. We are just a bunch of pigeons. A few ( Wall Street, Armstrong, whatever) are making horrendous profits, while displacing jobs in our home.
Are we so stupid that we can't see this?

I don't even understand who you are ranting about.

The Asians that are coping and selling at a under cut price or the Italian's that are getting 700% mark up.

Bikes (these kind anyways) are luxury items. Some people are willing to over pay for them others are willing to buy copies.

P.S. Don't assume the copies are any less functional. Just like a Bikesdirect steel bike functions just as well as a Bespoke builders does.

It's just what the buyer wants and there is nothing wrong with either.

[Germany_chris]

In the sprint to the bottom, things lose their soul. For some products soul matters.

Thank you..Just thank you!!

[Rueda Tropical]

P.S. Don't assume the copies are any less functional.

Like counterfeit pharmaceuticals colored with car paint and fake luxury watches made of cheap materials with bezels that don't rotate and controls that don't actually function. You really think this Pinarello counterfeit is made anywhere close to the same standard as the real deal?

This is theft and fraud not competition.

China does compete in many areas. They have the most advanced car battery in the world and there are more and more Chinese manufacturers innovating and producing quality goods and services. This is something else entirley.

[Vientomas]

there is no moral justification for Intellectual Property theft. that's where the real problem is - with those who conspire to manufacture and sell counterfeit goods (regardless of what it is, a Pinarello frame, Louis Vuitton bags, pharmaceuticals -scary-, etc.).

i believe there is simply no concept of IP theft, more so in some global regions than others. money is to be made from consumers and buck is a buck. or rather, a yuan is a yuan.

A true capitalist has no morals when it comes to seeking profits. "Greed is good" - remember?

[Rueda Tropical]

A true capitalist has no morals when it comes to seeking profits. "Greed is good" - remember?

I beg to differ.

A deal that is good for you and good for me is a sustainable long term and profitable deal. One where it's all for me and screw you is short sighted and won't last. Like a farmer eating his seed crop, rampant greed and gluttony provides only short lived gains.

Bleed the consumers of your products dry and drive thier salaries down to subsistence levels so you can put more in your pocket and who will buy your products? Never mind morality, it's not smart business or good capitalism.

[AngryScientist]

P.S. Don't assume the copies are any less functional. Just like a Bikesdirect steel bike functions just as well as a Bespoke builders does.

.

what is your basis for saying this. i assume absolutely nothing factual.

carbon fiber is a very technical material, i wouldnt trust a bike frame made of carbon on a tricky decent that was made with questionable materials or craftsmanship.

[oldpotatoe]

what is your basis for saying this. i assume absolutely nothing factual.

carbon fiber is a very technical material, i wouldnt trust a bike frame made of carbon on a tricky decent that was made with questionable materials or craftsmanship.

You could say the same thing about genuine Pinarellos. Generally Unmonitored mass production in a Chinese or Taiwanese factory. You have no idea if they are trying to save money with one less carbon sheet, 300 grams less glue on a frame they are making. It's not like these factories are owned by the name on the downtube. Particulalry for small accounts, like pinarellomerckxcolnagoderosa. If they lose these accounts, so what, they just make more trekspecializedgiants.

[happycampyer]

It's not possible to tell whether these frames function as well as an authentic Pinarello, but that doesn't change the fact that it's a theft of Pinarello's intellectual property (and a particularly brazen one at that).

That said, a few years ago a cousin-in-law of mine who lives in the Philippines and who is very much into cycling was visiting, and he told me stories of the rampant counterfeiting of cycling products are in Asia. Wheels, frames, handlebars, you name it, and typically the hottest brands (Zipp, Pinarello, etc.). Some of the counterfeits looked more convincing that others, but they still had a high failure rate, which people just accepted.

If a product is overpriced (whether it's a $6K Dogma, an $XK Rolex or Chanel bag, or a $150 license for Microsoft Office), the market will determine by deciding to buy it or not. Not that it affects the principal of the matter, one major difference is that if a fake Rolex has a bezel that doesn't turn or has a quartz movement, it's wearer isn't going to be seriously injured or die if it stops working. Nevertheless, the counterfeiting of these products is theft, plain and simple.

[Vientomas]

I beg to differ.

A deal that is good for you and good for me is a sustainable long term and profitable deal. One where it's all for me and screw you is short sighted and won't last. Like a farmer eating his seed crop, rampant greed and gluttony provides only short lived gains.

Bleed the consumers of your products dry and drive thier salaries down to subsistence levels so you can put more in your pocket and who will buy your products? Never mind morality, it's not smart business or good capitalism.

My point is that in a true free market economy, morality has no role. As you indicated, the desire for continued profits dictates behavior, not morality.

[bobswire]

Blame the companies that outsourced their products and production secrets over seas in order to make more profit not the consumer looking for a bargain especially when that consumer lost his/her job by that same company that outsourced it.
Now that Chinese/Tiawan manufacturer has the know how , means, molds and capability to make basically the same frames as "branded" ones. Sure there is junk out there but if you do research you'll find some good frames for the money.
See PedalForce http://pedalforce.com/online/

[Climb01742]

there is an economic incentive to outsource production. with that incentive there is a risk. a risk of being counterfeited. my guess is both parties knew the benefits and risks.

if you keep your production in-house or in-country, you don't run the risk...or gain the cost-saving benefits.

as consumers we vote with our dollars for the business model we prefer. sounds fair.

[ultraman6970]

One of the reasons campagnolo does everything in the house.

[csm]

You could say the same thing about genuine Pinarellos. Generally Unmonitored mass production in a Chinese or Taiwanese factory. You have no idea if they are trying to save money with one less carbon sheet, 300 grams less glue on a frame they are making. It's not like these factories are owned by the name on the downtube. Particulalry for small accounts, like pinarellomerckxcolnagoderosa. If they lose these accounts, so what, they just make more trekspecializedgiants.

steel is real and ti is fly!
none of that carbon stuff for me.... except for the fork.

[Rueda Tropical]

Blame the companies that outsourced their products and production secrets over seas in order to make more profit not the consumer looking for a bargain especially when that consumer lost his/her job by that same company that outsourced it.
Now that Chinese/Tiawan manufacturer has the know how , means, molds and capability to make basically the same frames as "branded" ones. Sure there is junk out there but if you do research you'll find some good frames for the money.
See PedalForce http://pedalforce.com/online/


Actually the biggest risk is not counterfeiting. It's expertise.

If you want advanced carbon fiber or forging techniques you are better off in Taiwan then Italy irregardless of price. The development of that manufacturing capability and knowledge base was paid for by outsourced products from companies that were arrogant and or greedy enough to convince themselves that the "we think / they sweat" business equation was somehow genetically or culturally guaranteed.

First it was just the blue collar jobs, now it's design, management and logistics.

[rain dogs]

Wow... I have so much to say on this topic, but will try to keep it brief.

1. Products don't have "soul", I think that's a lark (or semantics), but they do have a history and a lifecycle and certainly in the race to the bottom of the barrel... you're just left with nothing but the bottom of the barrel.

2. Buying those products is endorsing IP theft. Full Stop. And various aspects infringe on one of Trademark, Copyright or Patent.

3. It's dubious to assume that a "in-house" or "in-country" item can't be illegally copied. Buy it, Mold it, Make it.

4. It's also a convenient strawman to build to set the argument as "Us" vs "Them" vs "Them".

It goes like this. Pinarello rips me off with 7000% profits. China Rips off Pinarello because they deserve it. Therefore, I am justified to buy a fake Pinarello! BULL-S**T.

You don't deserve a Pinarello. You want a Pinarello. There are lots of other bike companies out there that don't "Rip you off with 7000% profits"... so buy one of those. If you don't agree with Pinarello's business model, you shouldn't want their "branding" right ;)

I can name a few alternatives:

- Serotta
- Moots
- Independant Fab.
and on and on.

They build bikes that support your local economy, pay fair wages and attract the most skilled craftsmen. If you don't value those things, what do you value? What do you expect others to value when it comes down to you?

[don compton]

Wow... I have so much to say on this topic, but will try to keep it brief.

1. Products don't have "soul", I think that's a lark (or semantics), but they do have a history and a lifecycle and certainly in the race to the bottom of the barrel... you're just left with nothing but the bottom of the barrel.

2. Buying those products is endorsing IP theft. Full Stop. And various aspects infringe on one of Trademark, Copyright or Patent.

3. It's dubious to assume that a "in-house" or "in-country" item can't be illegally copied. Buy it, Mold it, Make it.

4. It's also a convenient strawman to build to set the argument as "Us" vs "Them" vs "Them".

It goes like this. Pinarello rips me off with 7000% profits. China Rips off Pinarello because they deserve it. Therefore, I am justified to buy a fake Pinarello! BULL-S**T.

You don't deserve a Pinarello. You want a Pinarello. There are lots of other bike companies out there that don't "Rip you off with 7000% profits"... so buy one of those. If you don't agree with Pinarello's business model, you shouldn't want their "branding" right ;)

I can name a few alternatives:

- Serotta
- Moots
- Independant Fab.
and on and on.

They build bikes that support your local economy, pay fair wages and attract the most skilled craftsmen. If you don't value those things, what do you value? What do you expect others to value when it comes down to you?
Well said!

[Lionel]

Well said rain_dogs.

When companies like Pinarello decided to outsource production it was a turn off for me. To a certain extend they do get what they deserved.

It would be nice to see some of these brands bring back production in their home country at some point.

[Pete Serotta]

Thanks,,,,there is never a single, simple solution to something that complex. please keep that is mind.

Thanks and hope everyone had a wonderful Thanksgiving.


PETE

[ergott]

One of the reasons campagnolo does everything in the house.
No they don't.

[ultraman6970]

If you are talking about the factory in eastern europe, they bought the whole thing and is actually a campagnolo factory in another country with campagnolo employees from italy and from the same country, is not outsourcing.

[ergott]

I'm referring to their hubs.

[don compton]

I'm referring to their hubs.
I sure wish that they still made their silver record 10sp. hubs. :hello:

[Wimpy]

what is your basis for saying this. i assume absolutely nothing factual.

carbon fiber is a very technical material, i wouldnt trust a bike frame made of carbon on a tricky decent that was made with questionable materials or craftsmanship.

I'm pretty much using the same basis you are using saying that they are inferior.

What facts do you have?

[AngryScientist]

What facts do you have?

i dont, but when safety is at stake - i air on the side of caution.

[Wimpy]

i dont, but when safety is at stake - i air on the side of caution.

Strange comment from someone that rides a bike on the same roads as distracted drivers.

It's not the $500 frame thats going to kill you.

[Chance]

I am truly a hardcore capitalist, but today's world is a different animal. A former poster sent us a site about a certain Italian frameset selling for less than 500 pounds. We are just a bunch of pigeons. A few ( Wall Street, Armstrong, whatever) are making horrendous profits, while displacing jobs in our home.
Are we so stupid that we can't see this?
No, the collective sees it right most of the time. Mostly because it doesn’t take genius to see or identify problems. That part is relatively easy.

What we don’t collectively see are solutions to solve these problems. That’s totally different and requires a different caliber of people. We see a lot of complaining about the mess we are in but few truly “workable” suggestions on how to fix problems.

It’s easy enough to agree that we’d be better off with more jobs in US but no one is offering solutions on how we would survive without everything being made in China at a fraction of the cost that we could do it for ourselves. We lived above our means by leveraging their poverty and cheap labor and now we’ll have to unwind the temporary gains. As the world equalizes our standard of living has nowhere to go but down.

So, any viable ideas on how to reverse the problem without shooting ourselves in the foot?


FWIW, the first that comes to mind is enforcing intellectual property rights but that’s easier said than done. We don’t have much leverage over China to force them to do anything they don’t really want. At this point we need them more than they need us. We are past the tipping point.

[rustychisel]

i dont, but when safety is at stake - i air on the side of caution.


err


& to forgive is divine

[oldpotatoe]

err


& to forgive is divine

Geez, no kidding. I'm a lousy speller but air and 'payed', pelOton, there or their.....we have the entyre interwebb avalable too us.

[AngryScientist]

tough crowd around here lately.

[Rueda Tropical]

We lived above our means by leveraging their poverty and cheap labor and now we’ll have to unwind the temporary gains.

If you look at distribution of income patterns with the rise of outsourcing, you will find the 'gains' from outsourcing went to a very, very tiny segment of the population over the last 20 years. If you unwound the gains from those who actually received them it would be beneficial to 90% of the population.

[54ny77]

Gives whole new meaning to the name "Dogma."

http://lists.thebeijinger.com/uploadimages/image/090917-090923/Hot_dog_0.jpg

[djg]

In the sprint to the bottom, things lose their soul. For some products soul matters.

I dunno about the soul. I do care a good deal about innovation and, even more, about quality control. Mostly fine, but how mostly do you want? Frame, fork, pharmaceutical ingredients in your domestically manufactured prescription medicines? Props to the folks at Serotta and others who do it right, but maybe the bikes are the least of our worries.

[oldpotatoe]

I'm referring to their hubs.

Are their hubs made by a factory owned by Campagnolo?

[Bob Loblaw]

It's interesting to watch the evolution of global economies. It starts out with hungry people willing to work for low wages. Then the money starts rolling in and the economy booms. Workers assert themselves to get higher wages, more free time for family, more luxury items. Manufacturing costs rise and the economy falters as manufacturing jobs are lost to countries still in the "hungry workers" phase.

It started in the US after the great depression, then Europe after WWII, then Japan, Korea, Taiwan, and now China is starting the process. Next up will be India, I suspect.

BL

[djg]

If you look at distribution of income patterns with the rise of outsourcing, you will find the 'gains' from outsourcing went to a very, very tiny segment of the population over the last 20 years. If you unwound the gains from those who actually received them it would be beneficial to 90% of the population.

I'm a fool for asking, but honestly, how do you figure?

Surely the perceived gains from outsourcing include, e.g., every flat screen TV on every wall and most of the surround sound systems attached to them. Etc. etc. I'm not saying I think these things were all good, much less wonderful, but everybody who said "I'll take that one" did it for perceived gain. And if we're counting, we have to count fair. For all the failures, glitches, and regrets, I suspect that most consumers would not choose to unwind their purchases. My two sets of loudspeakers were made in England (outsourced to the east?), but I reckon that folks were glad enough to have the other ones, as they keep going back for more.

And on the other side . . . we didn't have 90% of our workforce engaged in manufacturing 20 years ago (or pre-reading x-rays either), and it's not as if all those jobs were outsourced.

Are we just supposed to look, on the one hand, at relative gains and losses in real income across the population, in some time window, and then, on the other, and separately, notice directional changes in outsourcing and, frankly, sourcing, and then say aha?

[Chance]

If you look at distribution of income patterns with the rise of outsourcing, you will find the 'gains' from outsourcing went to a very, very tiny segment of the population over the last 20 years. If you unwound the gains from those who actually received them it would be beneficial to 90% of the population.
Perhaps you are correct if viewed strictly from an income standpoint, but the financial unwinding of concern to me is our ability to buy 55-inch LCD TVs for under $1,000 for Christmas. And that’s for normal middle class families not the rich. It seems unsustainable. We couldn’t have gotten to that level of affordability producing the TVs ourselves and in the future it’s highly doubtful the Chinese will continue to work for peanuts so we can live at a standard of living well above theirs. My point wasn’t about American rich vs. middle class vs. poor in US which is political and will get us banned. You can look at it as an average reflected on our collective standard of living. Relatively speaking it can’t continue.

Same applies to $500 bikes. Not much different than $1,000 big screen TVs that cost over $10,000 when first introduced prior to mass production with cheap labor. These TVs are not necessarily worse but they are much cheaper to buy (for now).

[Rueda Tropical]

I'm a fool for asking, but honestly, how do you figure?

Surely the perceived gains from outsourcing include, e.g., every flat screen TV on every wall and most of the surround sound systems attached to them.

Let's make a trade. High paying industrial job with health and retirement benefits in exchange for a no benefit, minimum wage job at Walmarts. But wait! in exchange for working for nothing and for no benefits you get cheap clothes, consumer electronics and easy credit.

But energy, healthcare, education, housing and food? Prices on those things haven't dropped, they have skyrocketed.

Outsourcing is only part of the equation. Not even the biggest part. But for guys who make stuff it was very big deal and the money all those guys lost went right into the pockets of a few guys at the top. That bit of redistribution of wealth was a life changing experience for many people and communities.

The other factors that have effected the economy and income distribution are way outside the scope of this thread.

[Wimpy]

Let's make a trade. High paying industrial job with health and retirement benefits in exchange for a no benefit, minimum wage job at Walmarts. But wait! in exchange for working for nothing and for no benefits you get cheap clothes, consumer electronics and easy credit.

But energy, healthcare, education, housing and food? Prices on those things haven't dropped, they have skyrocketed.

Outsourcing is only part of the equation. Not even the biggest part. But for guys who make stuff it was very big deal and the money all those guys lost went right into the pockets of a few guys at the top. That bit of redistribution of wealth was a life changing experience for many people and communities.

The other factors that have effected the economy and income distribution are way outside the scope of this thread.


You need to come out of your vacuum. The air is getting thin in there.

[Rueda Tropical]

You need to come out of your vacuum. The air is getting thin in there.

A content free response. Doesn't get much thinner then that.

[Chance]

Let's make a trade. High paying industrial job with health and retirement benefits in exchange for a no benefit, minimum wage job at Walmarts. But wait! in exchange for working for nothing and for no benefits you get cheap clothes, consumer electronics and easy credit.

But energy, healthcare, education, housing and food? Prices on those things haven't dropped, they have skyrocketed.

Outsourcing is only part of the equation. Not even the biggest part. But for guys who make stuff it was very big deal and the money all those guys lost went right into the pockets of a few guys at the top. That bit of redistribution of wealth was a life changing experience for many people and communities.

The other factors that have effected the economy and income distribution are way outside the scope of this thread.
This would be good but how do you actually make it happen? Are you suggesting protectionism? Or stop all trade with countries that can manufacture cheaper? It’s easy to agree with your general goals but no one seems to have answers on how to get there without causing ourselves even more pain in the process.

By the way, did you notice that the prices of things you list as having skyrocketed are the ones we mostly produce for ourselves? If we apply that to other things we buy won’t those prices be much higher too? How many families could pay $10,000 for a big screen TV? Or $1,000 for a kid’s bike to ride to school?

[Wimpy]

A content free response. Doesn't get much thinner then that.

A content free response. Doesn't get much thinner then that.

[Germany_chris]

A content free response. Doesn't get much thinner then that.
He'll probably just call you a socialist or some other bunk..then say it's time to move back into the real world.. :crap:

[Rueda Tropical]

By the way, did you notice that the prices of things you list as having skyrocketed are the ones we mostly produce for ourselves? If we apply that to other things we buy won’t those prices be much higher too? How many families could pay $10,000 for a big screen TV? Or $1,000 for a kid’s bike to ride to school?

Prices for much of what's skyrocketed are dependent on global commodity prices. Some (real estate prices) because of the credit bubble and leverage that was encouraged in finance (which also impacted commodity prices). Some like health care because we spend more for less then any other country in the developed world because of the way the system is engineered. Labor costs are just a part and not anywhere near the biggest part.

It's seems that the system that we were told was unsustainable by those that would benefit the most from the changes that were made has been replaced by one that is proving far less sustainable. Income inequality peaked at two points in the last 100 years in the US. Right before the crash of 1929 and right before the current crash. That is not a coincidence.

[thegunner]

A content free response. Doesn't get much thinner then that.

fellas, it's than.

[Rueda Tropical]

fellas, it's than.

Thank You. Now that's relevant (and incontroverable) content:)

[Bruce K]

I think we're done here.

Some folks really need to re-evaluate their attitude/behavior/comments before they post again.

Too much negativity and lack of common civility at times.

Let's try to get in the spirit of the season.

BK

Bah Humbug !! :rolleyes: