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buldogge
11-23-2011, 02:09 AM
So...Im building up another set of wheels for a little fall project for the Calfee.

I have been running the A23/Chorus road set off my Meech all-rounder and want to build something a it lighter.

This set will be 28H F+R...hubs will be the latest "Super Lights" from bikehubstore (in a fetching blue).

So...Rim choice:

A23s again
Aerohead (28H OC rear pain to find sometimes)
DT Swiss RR415
Kinlin XR200 (or XR200F/270R)

I can get good pricing on the first three which brings cost inline with the Kinlins FWIW...DT Swiss is about $15 more per rim, though.

Thoughts???

-Mark in St. Louis

DRZRM
11-23-2011, 06:19 AM
HED Belgiums too expensive or too heavy? I thought I'd heard that some new 23 width wheels were in the pipelines.

godfrey1112000
11-23-2011, 07:19 AM
I have had them for 3.5 years, very dependable and true

you will be pleased with them

znfdl
11-23-2011, 07:40 AM
HED Belgiums too expensive or too heavy? I thought I'd heard that some new 23 width wheels were in the pipelines.

I believe they are Hed Belgiums with a carbon fairing.

In my humble opinion, I would go with the A23s. I have ridden all four rims and in my humble opinion, the A23s give the best ride.

oldpotatoe
11-23-2011, 08:42 AM
So...Im building up another set of wheels for a little fall project for the Calfee.

I have been running the A23/Chorus road set off my Meech all-rounder and want to build something a it lighter.

This set will be 28H F+R...hubs will be the latest "Super Lights" from bikehubstore (in a fetching blue).

So...Rim choice:

A23s again
Aerohead (28H OC rear pain to find sometimes)
DT Swiss RR415
Kinlin XR200 (or XR200F/270R)

I can get good pricing on the first three which brings cost inline with the Kinlins FWIW...DT Swiss is about $15 more per rim, though.

Thoughts???

-Mark in St. Louis

DT415 would be my choice, Rev spokes front, laced 2 cross, DT Comps RH side rear, Revs LH rear, laced 3 cross, spokes inside pulling. Brass nipps.

buldogge
11-23-2011, 08:51 AM
Peter...Just as planned...except...3x on 28H???

-Mark

DT415 would be my choice, Rev spokes front, laced 2 cross, DT Comps RH side rear, Revs LH rear, laced 3 cross, spokes inside pulling. Brass nipps.

buldogge
11-23-2011, 08:53 AM
I didn't price them to be honest...but...my impression is that the HEDs are more expensive and the A23s function about the same...no?

-Mark

HED Belgiums too expensive or too heavy? I thought I'd heard that some new 23 width wheels were in the pipelines.

buldogge
11-23-2011, 08:55 AM
I have 2 sets of A23s for my Meech and they do ride nice...no doubt about it. In that case they are 32H 3x with Chorus hubs...I don't think I could go wrong...maybe something different this time though...???

-Mark

I believe they are Hed Belgiums with a carbon fairing.

In my humble opinion, I would go with the A23s. I have ridden all four rims and in my humble opinion, the A23s give the best ride.

oldpotatoe
11-23-2011, 08:59 AM
Peter...Just as planned...except...3x on 28H???

-Mark

Yep, inside pulling spokes unless you are the 'buck 35 or so' weight range. 3x rear, 2 cross front.

znfdl
11-23-2011, 09:03 AM
I didn't price them to be honest...but...my impression is that the HEDs are more expensive and the A23s function about the same...no?

-Mark

The HED rims usuallt do not have much weight variation where as the A23 can vary by 40-50 grams.

Hed rims are better machined and are more round.

oldpotatoe
11-23-2011, 09:09 AM
The HED rims usuallt do not have much weight variation where as the A23 can vary by 40-50 grams.

Hed rims are better machined and are more round.

Yep but almost twice the price. IMHO, don't think they are almost twice as good.

znfdl
11-23-2011, 09:33 AM
Yep but almost twice the price. IMHO, don't think they are almost twice as good.

I was just pointing out the differences in the rims. I have 4 sets of A23 wheels, so I agree with you. My wheelset with HED rims is also quite good.

buldogge
11-23-2011, 11:22 AM
That's what I assumed, and I agree the A23s are a better value.

-Mark

The HED rims usuallt do not have much weight variation where as the A23 can vary by 40-50 grams.

Hed rims are better machined and are more round.

Yep but almost twice the price. IMHO, don't think they are almost twice as good.

bambam
11-23-2011, 12:04 PM
Yep, inside pulling spokes unless you are the 'buck 35 or so' weight range. 3x rear, 2 cross front.

I know of someone who does this but does it make that much difference?
Wouldn't the pulling spokes put more pressure on the rim at the nipple?

If not how is this achieve when lacing? Is this lacing method available online somewhere? In a book?

Thanks,
BamBam

Kontact
11-23-2011, 09:16 PM
Inside pulling spokes just means that the spokes that are heads out are the ones that get pulled when under pedal force. It is assumed that these spokes see more strain and variation in tension than the "pushing" spokes, so putting them on the inside of the flange makes them less likely for the heads to break. In a really well built wheel it probably doesn't matter, but why not hedge your bets?

* I have seen multiple factory and professionally built and tensioned 415 rear wheels crack at the spoke holes around the eyelets. One guy I have ridden with got two of them warrantied - he's 160 lbs. and not hard on his equipment. They would not be my choice.

* 28 hole 2x puts the spoke pairs 180 degrees apart. I do not understand why anyone would want to decrease the bracing angle by going to 3x and put up with spokes blocking spoke heads. :confused: The spokes only touch at one cross in either set up.

* I rather like the Kinlins. They build very consistantly. XR200s are very light rims, so keep that in mind for the rear wheel if you are heavy. The 270s are great for a heavier rider

* Light spokes are a great way to lower wheel weight. Consider using DT Revolutions or Wheelsmith XL14s for the non-drive side and front wheel, and Wheelsmith DB14s for a lighter spoke standard butted spoke than DT Comps. If you want to use alloy nipples, keep them off the drive side.


On the last light set I built for myself, I wish I had popped for the $14 for drive side ti nipples, just to try them. 24/28 Kinlins and Rev/Comp spokes came out to 1400 grams.

maunahaole
11-23-2011, 09:18 PM
I know of someone who does this but does it make that much difference?
Wouldn't the pulling spokes put more pressure on the rim at the nipple?

If not how is this achieve when lacing? Is this lacing method available online somewhere? In a book?

Thanks,
BamBam

Get a hold of the Gerd Schraner book on wheelbuildng to get some detail. It is not very long, but really informative.

http://www.amazon.com/Art-Wheelbuilding-Reference-Neophytes-Wheelaholics/dp/0964983532

buldogge
11-23-2011, 09:55 PM
Hey... Thanx for the input.

I usually use Revs F and NDS and Comps DS...but...I can't pass up the good prices on Sapim spokes, so I will go Laser F/NDS and Race DS this time around.

2x all around should be fine, as I understand it, and it seems you agree.

Were the rim failures RR415 or the older 1.1s??? I have zero DT Swiss rim experience...I have had good luck (but not a huge amount of mileage) with both A23s and Aeroheads.

TA
-Mark

Inside pulling spokes just means that the spokes that are heads out are the ones that get pulled when under pedal force. It is assumed that these spokes see more strain and variation in tension than the "pushing" spokes, so putting them on the inside of the flange makes them less likely for the heads to break. In a really well built wheel it probably doesn't matter, but why not hedge your bets?

* I have seen multiple factory and professionally built and tensioned 415 rear wheels crack at the spoke holes around the eyelets. One guy I have ridden with got two of them warrantied - he's 160 lbs. and not hard on his equipment. They would not be my choice.

* 28 hole 2x puts the spoke pairs 180 degrees apart. I do not understand why anyone would want to decrease the bracing angle by going to 3x and put up with spokes blocking spoke heads. :confused: The spokes only touch at one cross in either set up.

* I rather like the Kinlins. They build very consistantly. XR200s are very light rims, so keep that in mind for the rear wheel if you are heavy. The 270s are great for a heavier rider

* Light spokes are a great way to lower wheel weight. Consider using DT Revolutions or Wheelsmith XL14s for the non-drive side and front wheel, and Wheelsmith DB14s for a lighter spoke standard butted spoke than DT Comps. If you want to use alloy nipples, keep them off the drive side.


On the last light set I built for myself, I wish I had popped for the $14 for drive side ti nipples, just to try them. 24/28 Kinlins and Rev/Comp spokes came out to 1400 grams.

Kontact
11-23-2011, 11:07 PM
They were 415s. I think it's weird - DTs products should be exemplary, and usually are. But they kept cracking, and DT kept replacing them. Eventually we just went to 465 rears. And yes, tension was correct and the rims were straight and true.

buldogge
11-24-2011, 12:28 AM
So...Sounds like you would recommend 415F and 465R...???

-Mark

They were 415s. I think it's weird - DTs products should be exemplary, and usually are. But they kept cracking, and DT kept replacing them. Eventually we just went to 465 rears. And yes, tension was correct and the rims were straight and true.

oldpotatoe
11-24-2011, 08:41 AM
I know of someone who does this but does it make that much difference?
Wouldn't the pulling spokes put more pressure on the rim at the nipple?

If not how is this achieve when lacing? Is this lacing method available online somewhere? In a book?

Thanks,
BamBam

Since more of the 'pulling' spokes lay onto the hub flange with 28h and 3 cross lacing, I like to have the pulling spoke on the inside of the flange on pulling spokes, less of an angle from flange to the rim.

For lacing, see Jobst's the Bicycle wheel' or Gerd's Art of Wheelbuilding.

For all others,24 and 28 2 cross, 32 and 36 3 cross, I lace outside pulling.

I don't think I could explain it here, lacing in general.

oldpotatoe
11-24-2011, 08:47 AM
Inside pulling spokes just means that the spokes that are heads out are the ones that get pulled when under pedal force. It is assumed that these spokes see more strain and variation in tension than the "pushing" spokes, so putting them on the inside of the flange makes them less likely for the heads to break. In a really well built wheel it probably doesn't matter, but why not hedge your bets?

* I have seen multiple factory and professionally built and tensioned 415 rear wheels crack at the spoke holes around the eyelets. One guy I have ridden with got two of them warrantied - he's 160 lbs. and not hard on his equipment. They would not be my choice.

* 28 hole 2x puts the spoke pairs 180 degrees apart. I do not understand why anyone would want to decrease the bracing angle by going to 3x and put up with spokes blocking spoke heads. :confused: The spokes only touch at one cross in either set up.

* I rather like the Kinlins. They build very consistantly. XR200s are very light rims, so keep that in mind for the rear wheel if you are heavy. The 270s are great for a heavier rider

* Light spokes are a great way to lower wheel weight. Consider using DT Revolutions or Wheelsmith XL14s for the non-drive side and front wheel, and Wheelsmith DB14s for a lighter spoke standard butted spoke than DT Comps. If you want to use alloy nipples, keep them off the drive side.


On the last light set I built for myself, I wish I had popped for the $14 for drive side ti nipples, just to try them. 24/28 Kinlins and Rev/Comp spokes came out to 1400 grams.


*I have built many 415, both 28h and 32h and have not had a eyelet crack.

*Only on large flange will the spoke 'block' the spoke head. I explained why I do this on 28 3 cross rears and a 3 cross rear will be stronger than a 2 cross 28h rear, all else being equal.

*I think Kinlin rims in general build a little 'soft'. I think because they are so light.

* Revs on the front the LH rear is a great idea as well as long as the rider is light.

* I just don't use aluminum nipples, particularly on a non eyeletted rim. They do nuthin, they are soft, deform easy, make a decent wheelbuild have a shorter life.

oldpotatoe
11-24-2011, 08:50 AM
So...Sounds like you would recommend 415F and 465R...???

-Mark

465 and 28h are white only.

If ya want a lightish wheelset, what you mentioned originally, then use Velocity or Kinlin. DT 465 are 465 grams. If I built 28h, I would build as I mentioned but put 3 wheelbuilders in a room, get 4 opinions. 2 cross rear, light rim, thin spokes, few spokes, 4 strikes and you are out.

Kontact
11-24-2011, 08:56 AM
So...Sounds like you would recommend 415F and 465R...???

-Mark
If you want DT rims, that is what I'd "recommend", but if the 415 has a cracking problem and the 465 is a bit heavy, I'm not sure if that makes either a hot choice.

I don't love building Velocity wheels - they always seem a little finicky as they come up to tension. But I work in the shop that invented the Crono wheel that Cane Creek later sold. We see so many very well used Velocity Aeroheads in these wheels - they really seem to have held up well for their weight.