Fit question: shorter stem or shorter reach bars?

[msl819]

Originally Posted by eBAUMANN

definitely shorter reach bars.

I'd agree here... going much shorter than 100 on a stem and I would be concerned with the handling. And the fit and feel of Hwy 1s are great in my opinion.

[ceolwulf]

Personally I would base this on whether I found the position riding on the tops comfortable or not.

[OtayBW]

Originally Posted by marciero

With a bar with 10mm less reach, the reach to the hoods would be unchanged. So to decrease the reach with a compact bar you may still need a shorter stem.

So many bars....so many profiles. All I'm saying is that the Noodle throws an unusual variable(s) into mix. On balance, selecting a compact bar with a suitable profile may well help the OP accomplish what he's looking for.

[monkeypants]

Great feedback!

For some reason, I thought there was going to be more of a consensus one way or the other (short stem-long reach vs long stem-short reach)--especially, as to how it pertains to handling.

In any case, will try out both options (which in retrospect seems like the obvious thing to do!) starting out with swapping out the Noodle for a compact bar. My local shop has a Highway-like bar in stock, at the moment. Also completely forgot about the option of raising the quill stem....

Thanks for the help everyone.

[Marc40a]

Originally Posted by marciero

The backward sweep of the Noodles is precisely the reason a compact bar with the same stem may not significantly decrease reach. In fact it would increase the reach to the flats by about 10mm, which is about the backward sweep. With a bar with 10mm less reach, the reach to the hoods would be unchanged. So to decrease the reach with a compact bar you may still need a shorter stem. Additionally, you would have a restricted range of hand positions. I would definitely go with shorter stem if you like the Noodles. The bike does not know the difference; that is, the handling of the bike for a given reach is not dependent on short stem/long reach bar vs long stem/short reach bar.

Another complication is that the flats on the Noodles also drop down significantly. So to get the same height with other bars, the stem will need to be lowered, thus further increasing the reach.

This isn't right. I've been tinkering with both of these bars for the past 2 weeks. The reach figure of 95mm for the Noodle ignores the back sweep. The back sweep is bonus real estate.

Also important to note that the reach calculation is relevant to the location of the hoods, not the stem clamp or the flats. The original poster was correct in his way of thinking about this. Shorter reach bars would require a longer stem.

I was in the same boat as the original poster and I went the Highway One and a longer stem.

I ride Noodles almost daily on my other bikes and I love them, but I also use bar-end shifters on those bikes. The lever positions are optimized for reach and braking from both the hood position and the drops.

I'm not crazy about the combo of STI shifters and Noodles because it seems like either the hood position or the drop position gets compromised. Don't get me wrong, lots of people use this combo, but it's not for me, ergonomically.

[Mark McM]

Originally Posted by monkeypants

For some reason, I thought there was going to be more of a consensus one way or the other (short stem-long reach vs long stem-short reach)--especially, as to how it pertains to handling.

Only total reach affects handling - it doesn't matter if the reach comes from the stem or the handlebars.

The first priority is selecting the handlebar for the shape that gives the best hand positions (and relative difference between hand positions). The only purpose of the stem is to put the handlebar in the right position.

[ColonelJLloyd]

Originally Posted by Mark McM

Only total reach affects handling - it doesn't matter if the reach comes from the stem or the handlebars.

The first priority is selecting the handlebar for the shape that gives the best hand positions (and relative difference between hand positions). The only purpose of the stem is to put the handlebar in the right position.

This.

Man, there is some really ill-conceived advice in this thread.

[benb]

Someone mentioned sliding the saddle forward. That's not the right way to fix reach, but that assumes you are already in the optimal saddle position in terms of fore-and-aft.

If you haven't had a really good fit session and your saddle isn't dialed in, that may actually be an OK solution.

Also the fear of going to a 90mm stem is overblown. I agree it can look odd but the fear of it affecting handling is blown way out of proportion due to internet hearsay plus "the rules". 90mm probably looks fine on bikes with frames 54cm or smaller too. The fear is not rational with respect to the laws of physics.

I've taken the same bike and run stems all the way from 70mm to 110mm and there is no negative effect. If anything that bike was most unstable with the longer stems because it threw off the weight balance due to excessive reach. The shorter stems do change handling but your brain adjusts in a minute or two. The difference in handling feel from a 100mm stem all the way down to a 70mm stem is tiny compared to the difference between running a 32mm tire and a 23mm tire on the same bike.

I have a bike with 32mm tires and a bike with 26mm tires.. I have a way way bigger handling adjustment when I get onto the bike with 26mm tires than I do if I shorten the stem.

Changing the stem is much faster, easier, and cheaper than changing out the bar.. you change the bar to get comfortable wrist angles in all the positions and also to set the relative positions of the tops vs hoods. With a long reach bar you could use a short stem and get a really upright position on the tops but still have an aggressively longer reach on the hoods. Likewise a deep drop bar will allow you to have a less aggressive hood/top position with a more aggressive drops position. The short reach bars that are popular right now kind of negate the amount of relief you can get when tired by riding on the tops.

[eddief]

about possibly moving saddle. OP does not necessarily seem that well-versed in the subtleties of fit, so I suggested another approach to the experiment. and i agree 15mm is a lot.

Originally Posted by benb

Someone mentioned sliding the saddle forward. That's not the right way to fix reach, but that assumes you are already in the optimal saddle position in terms of fore-and-aft.

If you haven't had a really good fit session and your saddle isn't dialed in, that may actually be an OK solution.

Also the fear of going to a 90mm stem is overblown. I agree it can look odd but the fear of it affecting handling is blown way out of proportion due to internet hearsay plus "the rules". 90mm probably looks fine on bikes with frames 54cm or smaller too. The fear is not rational with respect to the laws of physics.

I've taken the same bike and run stems all the way from 70mm to 110mm and there is no negative effect. If anything that bike was most unstable with the longer stems because it threw off the weight balance due to excessive reach. The shorter stems do change handling but your brain adjusts in a minute or two. The difference in handling feel from a 100mm stem all the way down to a 70mm stem is tiny compared to the difference between running a 32mm tire and a 23mm tire on the same bike.

I have a bike with 32mm tires and a bike with 26mm tires.. I have a way way bigger handling adjustment when I get onto the bike with 26mm tires than I do if I shorten the stem.

Changing the stem is much faster, easier, and cheaper than changing out the bar.. you change the bar to get comfortable wrist angles in all the positions and also to set the relative positions of the tops vs hoods. With a long reach bar you could use a short stem and get a really upright position on the tops but still have an aggressively longer reach on the hoods. Likewise a deep drop bar will allow you to have a less aggressive hood/top position with a more aggressive drops position. The short reach bars that are popular right now kind of negate the amount of relief you can get when tired by riding on the tops.

[marciero]

Originally Posted by Marc40a

This isn't right. I've been tinkering with both of these bars for the past 2 weeks. The reach figure of 95mm for the Noodle ignores the back sweep. The back sweep is bonus real estate.

Also important to note that the reach calculation is relevant to the location of the hoods, not the stem clamp or the flats. The original poster was correct in his way of thinking about this. Shorter reach bars would require a longer stem.

I was in the same boat as the original poster and I went the Highway One and a longer stem.

I ride Noodles almost daily on my other bikes and I love them, but I also use bar-end shifters on those bikes. The lever positions are optimized for reach, and braking from both the hood position and the drops.

I'm not crazy about the combo of STI shifters and Noodles because seems like either the hood position or the drop position gets compromised. Don't get me wrong, lot's of people use this combo, but it's not for me both reach-wise and ergonomically.

Reach measurements are rather dubious, since the actual reach you get will depend on how you orient the bar. The horizontal-distance-with-drops-parallel-to-the-ground standard does not seem to be agreed-upon. I've seen several reach dimensions listed for the Noodle. Ben's Cycle has them listed at 110.
Oddly, despite Grant Peterson having designed these bars, the Rivendell site is not clear on this. The diagram seems to indicate center-to-center, including the backward sweep, though it is too cartoonish to conclude anything. The 92mm they have listed sounds short to me, even neglecting the back sweep. A complete description of these bars would include bar reach as well as the backward sweep. You need both to select the correct stem length in order to nail down the reach to the flats and reach to the hoods.

Regarding "total reach" and handling vs stem length/handlebar reach, three posts make the same point-my first post, yours, and MarkMcM's. I think when selecting bars though it makes sense to talk about the reach to the flats as a separate consideration. The Noodles complicate this for sure. Another thing is that the back sweep on these bars seems greater on the wider bars. I have 42 and on 44 on different bikes.

[MerckxMad]

If you have a quill stem and enough length above the minimum insertion mark, raise your bars. It doesn't cost anything but the twist of an allen wrench and it may solve your problem. As you raise the bars, they will also move rearward towards your saddle. Nitto stem are sized .5cm longer than labeled.

[MesiJezi]

Originally Posted by Mark McM

Only total reach affects handling - it doesn't matter if the reach comes from the stem or the handlebars.

I agree with that statement with a qualification: If the bar reach increases as a percentage of the total reach, there will be a bigger change in total reach when riding on the tops vs hood or drops. As the stem length increases as a percentage of total reach, the amount the total reach changes when moving your hands between positions decreases.

To put it another way, it doesn't matter whether the total reach comes from the bar or the stem if your hands are always at the furthest point of that reach, but a short stem with a long reach bar will be twitchy when riding on the tops and less so when riding on the hoods. A long stem with a short reach bar will feel more similar as you switch between the two.

[Mark McM]

Originally Posted by MesiJezi

To put it another way, it doesn't matter whether the total reach comes from the bar or the stem if your hands are always at the furthest point of that reach, but a short stem with a long reach bar will be twitchy when riding on the tops and less so when riding on the hoods. A long stem with a short reach bar will feel more similar as you switch between the two.

The bigger difference in handling between the hoods/drops and the bar tops will be from the difference in hand grip widths and body position, not the effective reach when in the bar tops. There are far more important factors in stability than stem/handlebar reach. I would not worry about the effect on handling when considering the reach to the bar tops.

Downhill MTBs can go quite fast, and they do not have twitchy steering, even though the combination of short stem and rearward sweeping bars may have an effective total reach of zero.