I've fallen [into my pedals] and I can't get up...

[OtayBW]

^ Thanks for reposting.

[dnc]

Originally Posted by Ti Designs

Here's something I've never been able to get across to anyone: There are multiple ways of powering a bike. On a flat road the inertia of the rider + bike is a system of energy, the rider need only add to that. Smaller muscles with less mechanical advantage can be used, which is why I suggest using the quads. Going up hills the bike must be accelerated against gravity, there's a need for greater torque. In doing this effectively, the largest muscle group should be used - glutes. There's a biomechanical reason for shutting down other muscle groups, it's called fatigue and injury. Spikes in muscle tension cause fatigue. Tension across any given fiber of a muscle is tension/width of the muscle (a bit of oversimplification here, muscle recruitment order isn't that simple). Using smaller muscles to add energy to a system is fine, asking small muscles to overcome a load isn't. Then there's the injury bit. The common understanding is that pushing harder gears on hills is bad for your knees. This is true if you're using your quads because the connective tissue from the vastus laterallis goes over the patella, creating a large sheer force. Sheer force (the kneecap being pulled into the joint) + range of motion = injury.

Here's one the automotive engineers will get. In engines there's something called detonation (knocking). It's when thermal expansion starts before top dead center (TDC), creating two opposing forces. You have thermal expansion pushing down on the piston, yet the piston is still moving up. The characteristic curve of the force on the cylinder head is the same as the tension at the patella when a rider starts pushing down before the crank gets to 12:00. Humans should have knock sensors, their knees would last longer...

I still don't understand your technique. Are you combining 'falling on the pedals' with the basic circular technique. Are you able to use the glutes without falling on the pedals while quads are shut down. If so, in what direction are the glutes applying force to the cranks. What muscles would you be using when riding at close to maximal power output during a flat non technical time trial.

[Ti Designs]

Just revisiting this thread for a second for a quick update...


I've been looking at a lot of the studies that have been done which conclude that pedaling in circles is not the best way to power a bike. Many of these studies look at the differences between elite level riders and average riders, the conclusion there is that they simply push down harder. This is where the raw data from pedal based strain gauges and hub based strain gauges diverges a little - but who looks at raw data? Pedals see force, in the case of the average rider they see a lower peak force over a longer time, as the rider is pushing too long. The hub sees the downward force times the mechanical advantage of the crank, so it sees a greater force when the crank is at 3:00 and nothing (from downward force) when the crank is at 6:00. The software smooths out the data into a curve from which they can generate a number at any time which the rider can understand. In that process the timing information about force is lost.

My conclusion in all of this isn't just that elite riders push down harder (they probably do), but they time the impulse to be centered around where the crank is at 3:00. This is a hard thing to do because your dominant skill set is standing and walking, where you support body weight at a far lower point. I've always said the best athletes are the ones who can shut down their body's previous skill sets...

Now the question becomes how to teach this. I've gone back to my plate loading fit bike to start this process, but I think it can be learned just by eliminating the bottom of the pedal stroke. Two little words of warning: First, before this can work, you need to map the correct muscle. If you can't get your glutes to support your full body weight while the pedal is moving, step 2 ain't gonna work (going back to the basic leaning process, no skipping steps). The second warning is for those who have done the one leg drill and found that it makes the saddle really uncomfortable. Taking the bottom of the pedal stroke away is much, much worse.

http://edsasslercoaching.com/the-pro...k-in-progress/

My plate loading fit bike can be seen in the second video here:

http://edsasslercoaching.com/pedal-stroke-101/stage-1/

[93legendti]

Originally Posted by OtayBW

^ Thanks for reposting.

You're welcome (I think you're referring to my post?)

[Waldo]

Thanks very much, Ed. I've always been a pedal masher climbing, never comfortable spinning uphill. No matter how much I tried, spinning felt aerobically and physiologically inefficient. I appreciate the reassurance that I've been doing it -- somewhat -- right all along.

[needmobikes]

wow, never really given it much thought other than "go." In hindsight, ditto to what Waldo said about powering though versus spinning my lil legs away; I do the same. It is pretty difficult to train the fast-twitch muscles while your lungs/legs/everything else hurts within the moment you need form the most, i.e., during exhaustive efforts. Any dummy-proof suggestions or short exercise tips for the average non-pro?

Sent from my SM-T800 using Tapatalk

[OtayBW]

Originally Posted by 93legendti

You're welcome (I think you're referring to my post?)

Yes.

[soulspinner]

Thanks Ti, we are never too old to learn new things.

[93legendti]

Originally Posted by OtayBW

Yes.

My pleasure

[laupsi]

Originally Posted by needmobikes

wow, never really given it much thought other than "go." In hindsight, ditto to what Waldo said about powering though versus spinning my lil legs away; I do the same. It is pretty difficult to train the fast-twitch muscles while your lungs/legs/everything else hurts within the moment you need form the most, i.e., during exhaustive efforts. Any dummy-proof suggestions or short exercise tips for the average non-pro?

Sent from my SM-T800 using Tapatalk

I'm proof that spinning works! Use to be a grinder, felt comfy pushing a large gear at lower cadences, 75-85 rpm. Got myself a coach and started spinning more. Not only has my power increased, riding the same amount if not less, I'm older, but my endurance and power have both improved.

When outside doing endurance work, 3-4 hours above 200 watts, the last hour does get difficult maintaining wattage; that is, unless I downshift and spin. I'm a case study in that spinning to maintain and produce more wattage over the slow burn works and works better. Sorry, I don't believe! And it didn't take very long to adapt to the higher cadences.

[Ti Designs]

Originally Posted by laupsi

Sorry, I don't believe! And it didn't take very long to adapt to the higher cadences.

I get this a lot. The dominant skill set is from walking or standing - using the quads to push down. Most people I start working with don't even realize they are firing the wrong muscle group, it's just what they've programmed their body to do. The quads don't generate much sustainable torque, so if you never learned how to recruit and isolate the glutes, becoming a high cadence rider makes sense.

Why limit yourself to one way of riding? I know how to spin the pedals (I own most of the roller race records in my area), but I can't see climbing that way. On a gap ride in Vermont my friend (and coaching client - sounds like a hair club ad) found he didn't have the legs for another gap, so we took the flat way home. At 25 MPH. Having more than one way to pedal a bike is a wonderful thing...

I'm working on filming the second part of my pedal stroke program - using the glutes now. I plan on having the whole series up this month. I'm getting lots of hits on the original videos and lots of requests for the rest of the program...

[laupsi]

Originally Posted by Ti Designs

I get this a lot. The dominant skill set is from walking or standing - using the quads to push down. Most people I start working with don't even realize they are firing the wrong muscle group, it's just what they've programmed their body to do. The quads don't generate much sustainable torque, so if you never learned how to recruit and isolate the glutes, becoming a high cadence rider makes sense.

Why limit yourself to one way of riding? I know how to spin the pedals (I own most of the roller race records in my area), but I can't see climbing that way. On a gap ride in Vermont my friend (and coaching client - sounds like a hair club ad) found he didn't have the legs for another gap, so we took the flat way home. At 25 MPH. Having more than one way to pedal a bike is a wonderful thing...

I'm working on filming the second part of my pedal stroke program - using the glutes now. I plan on having the whole series up this month. I'm getting lots of hits on the original videos and lots of requests for the rest of the program...

interesting you can point out I'm utilizing the "wrong muscle" group when you've never seen me pedal a bike. perhaps I was juiced, apparently this would explain how I could possible be riding, w/out believing in your "falling on the pedal mantra" and do so effectively.

all your posturing and videos are all well and good but when it comes to pedaling a bike you're taking something so utterly simple and trying to make it very complicated. I'm all for folks having different opinions but please stop behaving like those of us on the forum are just a bunch of disciples just waiting to "see the light" on your "un provable" method of bike pedaling. enough already, move on and let the rest of us ride!

[benb]

Originally Posted by laupsi

all your posturing and videos are all well and good but when it comes to pedaling a bike you're taking something so utterly simple and trying to make it very complicated. I'm all for folks having different opinions but please stop behaving like those of us on the forum are just a bunch of disciples just waiting to "see the light" on your "un provable" method of bike pedaling. enough already, move on and let the rest of us ride!

I think a lot of successful cyclists do figure this out on their own but as a coach it's a valuable thing for him to teach and share as their are lots of beginners who don't get it. The thing is whether or not it is actually hard enough to require all the fancy videos and coaching or whether you just need a decent fit and a paragraph or two from whatever book... it's not like this stuff is not mentioned in cycling texts.

[false_Aest]

Originally Posted by laupsi

enough already, move on and let the rest of us ride!

Brah,

Come out to Cali. I got a spare couch in my van in Venice and a pretty effin' good line on some mad herb and promise to take you on some monumental climbs.

[numbskull]

Originally Posted by laupsi

I'm proof that spinning works! Use to be a grinder, felt comfy pushing a large gear at lower cadences, 75-85 rpm. Got myself a coach and started spinning more. Not only has my power increased, riding the same amount if not less, I'm older, but my endurance and power have both improved.


............ I'm a case study in that spinning to maintain and produce more wattage over the slow burn works and works better. ......

Originally Posted by laupsi

interesting you can point out I'm utilizing the "wrong muscle" group when you've never seen me pedal a bike. perhaps I was juiced, apparently this would explain how I could possible be riding, w/out believing in your "falling on the pedal mantra" and do so effectively.

all your posturing and videos are all well and good but when it comes to pedaling a bike you're taking something so utterly simple and trying to make it very complicated. I'm all for folks having different opinions but please stop behaving like those of us on the forum are just a bunch of disciples just waiting to "see the light" on your "un provable" method of bike pedaling. enough already, move on and let the rest of us ride!

Why such vitriol?

For something you consider so "utterly simple" I note you had to hire a coach before you learned what you know now.

As for being a "case study" for high cadence riding, you are more of an anecdote.......and I'd think someone who trumpets the benefits of science in his avatar would know full well that anecdotes are proof of nothing. So what is your point other than you don't like the OP?

If you found something that works for you and you're sticking with it.......great. All I think TiD is doing is pointing out that there are other ways to pedal a bike that may not come naturally to most but can be effective in certain circumstances. He is not denigrating high cadence riding (to the contrary his pedal stroke drills most certainly can improve one's ability to "spin") just preaching that it is not the only or necessarily best way to attack a hill.