I've fallen [into my pedals] and I can't get up...

[rkhatibi]

Originally Posted by mg2ride

A question that is both sincere and snarky:

If we learned to walk at a very young age without anyone really teaching us, why do you think we can't learn to properly pedal a bike without being taught?

I played soccer for a number of years and had to relearn running when I started doing distance. When primarily sprinting or loose jogging I never developed a long distance stride or at least not a very good one. And learning that actually helped with sprint speed.

Had the same experience swimming, wrestling, punching, kicking, hitting things with sticks, and everything else humans have been doing for the past 200k years. The adaptable human is good at getting it done, just not very efficiently without analyzing and learning.

[benb]

I feel like this is one of those techniques that works best when your fit is right for it, and when that lines up and you do it correct then all of a sudden you're not putting the weight on your bars.

If the fit is off the pedaling motion is not going to work right, the quads activate too much or something for stabilization, and you're right back to putting too much weight on your hands.

[brownhound]

After watching videos, I went on a ride with some hills (for the midwest).

Question 1: would you describe this falling method as the seated version of a standing climb? In other words, I felt like following this method - best I could - had me essentially trying to force the pedals down with my body weight the way one does when standing.

The difference, of course, is the balance issue. When standing, your weight is above your feet so it actually feels more natural, whereas this falling method is different in that your weight is in front of your saddle so you feel like you're falling. Tell me I'm doing it wrong, but I thought "a-ha, it's like moving my weight onto the pedal as if I were standing except I'm keeping a lot of my weight on the saddle."

Question 2: do you need a higher gear than spinning up a hill to provide resistance to your pedal? I experimented and discovered I couldn't low gear it because the force is too great on the pedal - i.e., it doesn't support my weight.

Question 3: would other coaches criticize me for stomping?

[eippo1]

Originally Posted by mg2ride

A question that is both sincere and snarky:

If we learned to walk at a very young age without anyone really teaching us, why do you think we can't learn to properly pedal a bike without being taught?

My take on this is that there is learning to do it and then learning to do it well. I'd argue that most people are terrible walkers and are really just doing some controlled stumbling. Take a look at a ballet dancer or someone trained in the martial arts and compare the way they walk to someone else. Same thing when you get someone skilled at trail running vs. pavement runners. They usually have a gait that is a bit more mindful and light-footed.

Then there's the truly skilled at getting off a bike. Anyone can do that, you say, but then you watch some of the best cyclocrossers do it and it looks like magic. Yeah, these are all things we learned to do on our own, but they can all be done better. Even walking, breathing, sitting, & observing.

[Ti Designs]

Originally Posted by brownhound

After watching videos, I went on a ride with some hills (for the midwest).

Question 1: would you describe this falling method as the seated version of a standing climb? In other words, I felt like following this method - best I could - had me essentially trying to force the pedals down with my body weight the way one does when standing.

The difference, of course, is the balance issue. When standing, your weight is above your feet so it actually feels more natural, whereas this falling method is different in that your weight is in front of your saddle so you feel like you're falling. Tell me I'm doing it wrong, but I thought "a-ha, it's like moving my weight onto the pedal as if I were standing except I'm keeping a lot of my weight on the saddle."

Question 2: do you need a higher gear than spinning up a hill to provide resistance to your pedal? I experimented and discovered I couldn't low gear it because the force is too great on the pedal - i.e., it doesn't support my weight.

Question 3: would other coaches criticize me for stomping?

Answer 1: pedaling out of the saddle gets way more complicated. In the saddle you can make the assumption about where the hips are, so it's two pivots and two sets of muscles. Take the fixed position of the hips out and there are all sorts of other variables. I would rather not try to answer a simple question with a more complex one...

Answer 2: In one ride you've figured out what most of the academic studies on pedal stroke fail to understand. Yes, you need enough gear under you to support your body weight. If there isn't enough resistance at the pedals you'll wind up putting the body weight back on your hands.

Answer 3: Probably. Look at most coaching programs, they make the assumption that everybody knows how to pedal, so they all skip right to FTP testing.

[dnc]

Originally Posted by Ti Designs

I've been putting my pedal stroke program on video for the last two months, but I'm still arguing with a lawyer about maintaing the rights to the program. It seems the guy who came up with the Total Emersion method of teaching swimming technique lost the right to sell it. I'm more interested in making better riders than making lots of money (both would be nice...) so I'm planning on having the whole thing up before Thanksgiving.

For now there are the original videos I made in my basement:

http://edsasslercoaching.com/the-program/the-concept/

In those videos why is the front wheel set higher than rear wheel. Are you saying it's wrong to ride in the aero drops position. By following your advice about what to do with upper body weight a rider is increasing stress on the lower back, which is one of the root causes of severe (on the bike only) lower back pain.

[brockd15]

Originally Posted by eippo1

...I'd argue that most people are terrible walkers and are really just doing some controlled stumbling.

[Dead Man]

Originally Posted by dnc

By following your advice about what to do with upper body weight a rider is increasing stress on the lower back, which is one of the root causes of severe (on the bike only) lower back pain.

Contrary to what? Sitting upright, or putting weight on your hands? Shouldn't be doing either of those.

If your back hurts, there's something wrong with your position. Or your back, I guess.. but assuming you have a requisite flexibility, a bike that fits, and your saddle position is dialed in, this IS the position you should be in - pivoted forward off the hips (not the lower back), hands light on the bars, weight split between the pedals and your butt - emphasis on the pedals.

[benb]

I'd be curious what this theory/technique says about riding on your slow days and when you're exhausted.

I had "one of those days" today. Yesterday I was fine, rode about 15 miles, some dirt. Got off the bike and did some core exercises (planks, crunches).

Today I couldn't really hold myself up.. riding was a disaster. Super exhausted. Very hard to keep good posture on the bike. I'm ready for a good rest but I get like this a lot when I'm super fatigued. It literally "felt like the bike got longer."

[Dead Man]

Originally Posted by benb

I'd be curious what this theory/technique says about riding on your slow days and when you're exhausted.

I had "one of those days" today. Yesterday I was fine, rode about 15 miles, some dirt. Got off the bike and did some core exercises (planks, crunches).

Today I couldn't really hold myself up.. riding was a disaster. Super exhausted. Very hard to keep good posture on the bike. I'm ready for a good rest but I get like this a lot when I'm super fatigued. It literally "felt like the bike got longer."

Sounds like it's the opposite for you and me... seems the tireder I get, the more I lean forward and engage the glutes, since they don't ever seem to wear out.

[benb]

Could just be a fit and/or exhaustion thing. Like I said I did some planks & stuff yesterday, before the ride I would not have said I felt like my core was sore/tired but I got on and rode into a headwind for about the first 1/2 of the ride, riding in the drops almost the whole time. All of a sudden my back was just exhausted.

I didn't really get in much of my "prep" type work last winter as I'd been hurt.

I do have plenty of days where I feel like you do.. lean over more and let your glutes do the work and it's fine. In general all of this works better for me when I'm riding harder rather than easier though. If I'm exhausted & I try to go out and do an easy recovery ride that's where posture becomes a challenge.

[Ti Designs]

Originally Posted by dnc

In those videos why is the front wheel set higher than rear wheel. Are you saying it's wrong to ride in the aero drops position. By following your advice about what to do with upper body weight a rider is increasing stress on the lower back, which is one of the root causes of severe (on the bike only) lower back pain.

Here's something I've never been able to get across to anyone: There are multiple ways of powering a bike. On a flat road the inertia of the rider + bike is a system of energy, the rider need only add to that. Smaller muscles with less mechanical advantage can be used, which is why I suggest using the quads. Going up hills the bike must be accelerated against gravity, there's a need for greater torque. In doing this effectively, the largest muscle group should be used - glutes. There's a biomechanical reason for shutting down other muscle groups, it's called fatigue and injury. Spikes in muscle tension cause fatigue. Tension across any given fiber of a muscle is tension/width of the muscle (a bit of oversimplification here, muscle recruitment order isn't that simple). Using smaller muscles to add energy to a system is fine, asking small muscles to overcome a load isn't. Then there's the injury bit. The common understanding is that pushing harder gears on hills is bad for your knees. This is true if you're using your quads because the connective tissue from the vastus laterallis goes over the patella, creating a large sheer force. Sheer force (the kneecap being pulled into the joint) + range of motion = injury.

Here's one the automotive engineers will get. In engines there's something called detonation (knocking). It's when thermal expansion starts before top dead center (TDC), creating two opposing forces. You have thermal expansion pushing down on the piston, yet the piston is still moving up. The characteristic curve of the force on the cylinder head is the same as the tension at the patella when a rider starts pushing down before the crank gets to 12:00. Humans should have knock sensors, their knees would last longer...

[weisan]

>Here's something I've never been able to get across to anyone...

Oh please, c'mmon Ti pal.... Even the great Einstein was able to get across the most complex concept using E = mc 2, surely you can do better than that!


Thanks for keep trying...

[weisan]

>>>Sheer force (the kneecap being pulled into the joint) + range of motion = injury.

I have personally tested this theory and can vouch for its validity.

[93legendti]

Originally Posted by Ti Designs

Here's something I've never been able to get across to anyone: There are multiple ways of powering a bike. On a flat road the inertia of the rider + bike is a system of energy, the rider need only add to that. Smaller muscles with less mechanical advantage can be used, which is why I suggest using the quads. Going up hills the bike must be accelerated against gravity, there's a need for greater torque. In doing this effectively, the largest muscle group should be used - glutes. There's a biomechanical reason for shutting down other muscle groups, it's called fatigue and injury. Spikes in muscle tension cause fatigue. Tension across any given fiber of a muscle is tension/width of the muscle (a bit of oversimplification here, muscle recruitment order isn't that simple). Using smaller muscles to add energy to a system is fine, asking small muscles to overcome a load isn't. Then there's the injury bit. The common understanding is that pushing harder gears on hills is bad for your knees. This is true if you're using your quads because the connective tissue from the vastus laterallis goes over the patella, creating a large sheer force. Sheer force (the kneecap being pulled into the joint) + range of motion = injury.

Here's one the automotive engineers will get. In engines there's something called detonation (knocking). It's when thermal expansion starts before top dead center (TDC), creating two opposing forces. You have thermal expansion pushing down on the piston, yet the piston is still moving up. The characteristic curve of the force on the cylinder head is the same as the tension at the patella when a rider starts pushing down before the crank gets to 12:00. Humans should have knock sensors, their knees would last longer...

Your message re 4 different ways to climb has gotten across to those of us who pay attention:

Originally Posted by Ti Designs

You missed my hill climbing class over the winter. The idea was to break hill climbing down to the basic 4 ways of climbing, and make the workload so hard that it would be impossible to stick with just one. So, four ways of climbing: Seated, pushing a big gear. I've gone over this a lot on this forum, the idea is to get your body weight perched over the pedal and use the glutes to drive the pedal down. It should feel like your almost falling into the pedal, if you've ever seen Eddy Merckx climb... Seated spinning - this is an easy one to understand, but it uses too much of the quads which tend to burn out. Standing and sustaining. This is where the hip is right over the pedal, the knee is almost straight, the body is upright, and you drop your body weight into it from the hip. Feels odd at first, but I've found I can bring my heart rate down while others are suffering by doing this. Lastly there's sprinter's position when you have to muscle through a steep section or you're doing the Pantani thing, sprinting to gain speed and sitting and spinning to maintain.

If you have a good grasp of all four of those you understand that longer efforts become a problem in asset allocation. use any one method too much and you start to pay the price. Those who don't learn the different methods still pay the price - their quads burn.

Originally Posted by Ti Designs

Work on the components of being a good climber individually, identify weaknesses and work on them, next spring put the whole picture together.

Pedal stroke - I can't stress this one enough, if you're not firing the muscles in the right order at the right time, you're wasting lots of energy and going slow. It's not just the one legged pedal stroke, it's doing it correctly and really getting the feel for where the power is.

Leg speed - this is one so few people get. Take a new rider, put 'em on a trainer with almost no resistance and have them pedal at 100 RPMs and watch their heart rate rise. It's not the wattage they're putting out, it's just asking them to fire muscles that fast. Every study I've seen on non cyclists claims the most efficient RPM range is around 75 RPMs, because they have no leg speed to speak of. If you're going to gain power at higher cadences, you can't be working hard just to pedal air at that speed.

Strength - fatigue is you doing damage to your muscles. Exceed their pull strength and muscles form tears. Get to the gym, build up fiber strength and you don't feel the same fatigue.


The stuff about power to weight goes without saying...

Technique - learn how to climb. Better yet, learn how to climb as many ways as you can. Climbing in the saddle turning a gear, climbing in a bigger gear on power, climbing out of the saddle in sustain mode, getting out of the saddle to gain momentum...

As for the fixed gear thing, I don't know that I would tell someone hundreds of miles away to just get a fixed gear. I've seen way too many people on fixed gears who don't have a clue what they're doing. The internet is the worst place to get advice on this, everybody is an expert ('cept me!)