OT: VW cheating emissions on TDI vehicles

[peanutgallery]

Plus 1, that is why I'm so prissy. I paid a premium for our tdi, no deal really except for the vehicle's percieved value. That was the vw MO at that point in time, other buyers we circling the lot at that point in time. Attitude was take it or leave it

Originally Posted by David Kirk

I hear you and at the same time think there is another way to look at this.

I paid for a product that I was told would do one thing and instead it did another. It was a "bait and switch" of sorts. So my having use of a car that wasn't what I paid for in the first place is worth very little to me. I bought car A and they gave me car B so 'free' use of car B is meaningless. The original crime still exists - I bought one thing and they gave me something else.

Because we were deceived and given B when we were told we were getting A I think there may be a strong case to be made for a full refund. But I doubt that will happen and the whole thing is muddied by the fact that many bought these cars used and it's hard to tell how much VW should give those people - what they paid for it used in full? I don't know.

In the end I suspect that they will offer a buy back of less then retail value and my hope is that they will offer some serious incentives to buy gas Golf wagon so that I shell out little to no cash.....I've set aside my Bribery cards to put toward a new car when the time comes to lessen the blow. We'll see. I paid cash for the car so it's not like I've only paid X amount so far in payments so I'll be on the hook for the full deal.

dave

[r_mutt]

Originally Posted by David Kirk

Interesting.

I of course don't agree but that's the way life works.

Do you own one of the affected cars?


dave

i don't want blue book value for a car that i bought less than 2 years ago new? i only have 12K on the odometer. i would lose thousands. blue book value isn't what the car is "worth". why should i take a hit on a car that i intended to keep for 6+ years because VW cheated on emissions? vw should give us the option for a trade on a new similar vehicle (gas wagon for me) where i give little to no money to make the trade.

[sjbraun]

I just configured a gas Sportwagen with the same features I have on my TDI. The total came to $28k, ($3,000 more than I paid for my 2014 TDI 11 months ago.) For that cost I get to pay for premium gas and lose 10 mpg in the city.
It's not looking like an even trade, even if VW was to buy back my TDI at my cost without depreciation. Should VW buy back my TDI, I'm probably looking at other brands. I hate the idea of an SUV, but a Mazda CX-5 comes closest to the versatility of my TDI.

[Rusty Luggs]

Originally Posted by David Kirk

Interesting.

I of course don't agree but that's the way life works.

Do you own one of the affected cars?


dave

No. Have owned VW in past, not TDI.

So, what happens if your car gets totaled, accident totally not your fault. What does insurance company pay you? How long you intended to keep the car does not enter into the equation. If what they pay you leaves you a loan balance doesn't enter the equation. No question that my 10 year old car has more value to me as transportation than the cash book value - insurance company doesn't care, a judge wouldn't care. Just doesn't work that way.

Seems like you want some $ in punitive damages from VW - is that it?

Interesting question actually - what if your car got totalled tomorrow - insurance company pay you today's book value or pre-scandal book value. What would you do if you were the insurance company?

Hey, it sucked when all our real estate values tanked with the whole mortgage loan crisis, didn't it?

[Cat3roadracer]

This last point is depressingly interesting. Any insurance professionals out there that could comment?

[oldpotatoe]

Originally Posted by Rusty Luggs

No. Have owned VW in past, not TDI.

So, what happens if your car gets totaled, accident totally not your fault. What does insurance company pay you? How long you intended to keep the car does not enter into the equation. If what they pay you leaves you a loan balance doesn't enter the equation. No question that my 10 year old car has more value to me as transportation than the cash book value - insurance company doesn't care, a judge wouldn't care. Just doesn't work that way.

Seems like you want some $ in punitive damages from VW - is that it?

Interesting question actually - what if your car got totalled tomorrow - insurance company pay you today's book value or pre-scandal book value. What would you do if you were the insurance company?

Hey, it sucked when all our real estate values tanked with the whole mortgage loan crisis, didn't it?

I agree..if there is a buy back, it will be pre apocalypse KBB or so..if you want 'damages', go see a lawyer, bring your check book. There will be class action lawsuits but good luck getting a lawyer and suing VW on your own..with $50Billion CASH in the bank, they can hire better lawyers.

My issue is my car(2013) is paid for..don't want another car payment.

2013 Gas JSW I guess..I'd be OK with that. Similar condition, new tires(just bought tires) and a warranty.

[shovelhd]

Originally Posted by sjbraun

I just configured a gas Sportwagen with the same features I have on my TDI. The total came to $28k, ($3,000 more than I paid for my 2014 TDI 11 months ago.) For that cost I get to pay for premium gas and lose 10 mpg in the city.
It's not looking like an even trade, even if VW was to buy back my TDI at my cost without depreciation. Should VW buy back my TDI, I'm probably looking at other brands. I hate the idea of an SUV, but a Mazda CX-5 comes closest to the versatility of my TDI.

2016 gassers do not require premium fuel. They run fine on regular, albeit with a bit less power. Even the GTI runs on regular.

If VW can get the 2015 and 2016 GSW TDI's certified, I'd trade into one of those. The GSW gasser can't be had with a 6MT, and I won't give that up. The only other option would be to downsize into a GTI, and I don't see how that would not cost me money. I'm driving a 2014 JSW TDI 6MT, loaded, with 41K miles on it. I have my issues with it but it's a great car.

I put my take on the whole situation a few pages back.

[shovelhd]

Originally Posted by Rusty Luggs

No. Have owned VW in past, not TDI.

So, what happens if your car gets totaled, accident totally not your fault. What does insurance company pay you? How long you intended to keep the car does not enter into the equation. If what they pay you leaves you a loan balance doesn't enter the equation. No question that my 10 year old car has more value to me as transportation than the cash book value - insurance company doesn't care, a judge wouldn't care. Just doesn't work that way.

Seems like you want some $ in punitive damages from VW - is that it?

Interesting question actually - what if your car got totalled tomorrow - insurance company pay you today's book value or pre-scandal book value. What would you do if you were the insurance company?

Hey, it sucked when all our real estate values tanked with the whole mortgage loan crisis, didn't it?

You're going to get reamed unless you have a replacement vehicle rider on your policy.

[GScot]

Another first world problem to throw on the fire is KBB pre scandal price vs real world cost. I have a 14 JSW 6MT. Purchased new 6/14 with 20k on it. I set out at the time to buy used. 2.5-3 year old cars with 80k on them were bringing as much as a new one. They just didn't depreciate much, market paid well over KBB/NADA.

[oldpotatoe]

Originally Posted by GScot

Another first world problem to throw on the fire is KBB pre scandal price vs real world cost. I have a 14 JSW 6MT. Purchased new 6/14 with 20k on it. I set out at the time to buy used. 2.5-3 year old cars with 80k on them were bringing as much as a new one. They just didn't depreciate much, market paid well over KBB/NADA.

Just checked KBB on 2013 TDI JSW and 2013 gas JSW...$ are the same plus/minus $200...

[David Kirk]

You and I see this in different ways.

The book value and what insurance would give me for the car should it be totaled is immaterial to me. I can only see that I bought one thing and was given another and the value of that thing I didn't ask for doesn't matter to me. I want what I paid for or my money back.

This will be a weak analogy no doubt as my coffee hasn't fully kicked in yet but stick with me if you don't mind.......

Let's say I walk into the car dealer and tell them I want the model that comes with the V6 engine and that I'm OK with paying a premium for it over the 4 cylinder. I make the deal and drive it for some period of time - say a month. I lift the hood to check the fluids and see that I have a 4 cylinder and not the V6. I didn't get what I paid for.

I bring the 4 banger back to the dealer. What should they do for me? If I'm not mistaken the logic you are sharing says I had free use of the 4 cylinder for a month and that the car is now used so the dealer is only obligated to give me that used value toward a trade on a V6. I'm saying I want the V6 or my money back.

I didn't get the car I was told I would get. I don't want damages - I want the car I paid for originally and if that is not possible I want my money back. I chose the car very carefully based on the specs and the company lied about them and gave me something different. This is bait-and-switch at best.

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If I totaled the car the insurance is meant to make me whole and put the car back into the condition it was in prior to the accident or to give me the money to buy a car in a similar used state......no one expects that the insurance would give me new car money to replace a used car. The thing here is that the car itself isn't in question. The insurance doesn't pay to replace my car with a 4 cylinder when I owned a V6. They don't question what the car actually is.

This is the key difference between how you and I see this. You are implying I got a car and I should be happy. I'm saying I got a car that wasn't what what the manufacturer told me I was getting and that I'm not happy with that - and I should not suffer financially because the maker lied about the car.

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Let's make this bike related to honor where we are. Say someone orders a custom frame built of 953 but and the builder lies and tells them it's 953 but instead they use 30 year old 531 and hope the customer doesn't notice.....but they do notice. Should the builder tell them they rode the bike for a year before the lie was discovered so they don't owe the customer a full value compensation because they had a bike to use for that period of time? I don't think so.

dave

Originally Posted by Rusty Luggs

No. Have owned VW in past, not TDI.

So, what happens if your car gets totaled, accident totally not your fault. What does insurance company pay you? How long you intended to keep the car does not enter into the equation. If what they pay you leaves you a loan balance doesn't enter the equation. No question that my 10 year old car has more value to me as transportation than the cash book value - insurance company doesn't care, a judge wouldn't care. Just doesn't work that way.

Seems like you want some $ in punitive damages from VW - is that it?

Interesting question actually - what if your car got totalled tomorrow - insurance company pay you today's book value or pre-scandal book value. What would you do if you were the insurance company?

Hey, it sucked when all our real estate values tanked with the whole mortgage loan crisis, didn't it?

[GScot]

Originally Posted by oldpotatoe

Just checked KBB on 2013 TDI JSW and 2013 gas JSW...$ are the same plus/minus $200...

I think everything VWAG has taken a hit. And TDIs have the compound hit of scandal plus $1.40 gasoline. I agree with many of your posts in this thread, I want to just keep the car as is. If they can improve the emissions without butchery that would be great. If I have to replace it I'm going to be pissed at the Feds. (Although I can't help but feel that VW is at least partly to blame)

[oldpotatoe]

Originally Posted by GScot

I think everything VWAG has taken a hit. And TDIs have the compound hit of scandal plus $1.40 gasoline. I agree with many of your posts in this thread, I want to just keep the car as is. If they can improve the emissions without butchery that would be great. If I have to replace it I'm going to be pissed at the Feds. (Although I can't help but feel that VW is at least partly to blame)

Diesel around here is only about 3-5 cents more than gas...about $1.55 or so. I would rather just keep the car as is or even close. I don't get hyperventilated about the whole gig...just a car.

[grawk]

David covers my thoughts pretty well, except that I don't need them to correct the emissions to feel satisfied. I either want to keep my car, or I want them to give me my money back. I didn't buy the car with the intent of trading it in after 18 months. I bought it to drive until the wheels fell off. Since it's still driving, it's still meeting my needs. The only way to buy something if you don't have some forceful coercive power is to make an offer the seller will accept. It'd take a fantastic offer for me to accept it. The blue book value of a year old car with 40k miles on it isn't compelling for me.

[shovelhd]

Dave, you are making a consumer fraud argument, which is certainly valid. The missing elephant in the room is the FTC. If they do not get involved then you would have to pursue a money back deal on your own.

If you take the fraud out of it, it's still a recall situation with a stop sale. The car runs and drives no differently than when you bought it. Nobody is preventing you from registering it and driving it. This is not a safety issue. Therefore you should not be compensated 100% for the use of a perfectly good car.