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#1
02-15-2012, 09:57 AM
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The reason is simple - so both sides have some skin in the game. I ask for a $300 to hold the clients place in line - that is their skin. Mine is that I'm making cash flow and business plans based on the promise of that future business. Without predictable and reliable cashflow there is no way a builder can plan and do anything more than survive day to day. For a short period many years ago I put people in the queue without taking an even small deposit - I just took them at their word. Unfortunately no matter how well intended they were and how much they really wanted a bike when I contacted them and told them is was time to go they bailed - one after another. Lesson learned. So now I ask for that $300 and it keeps to impulse purchases that will never be followed through on to a minimum and now I can plan ahead and run my business much more efficiently........and the customer is assured a spot in the queue. We both have something at risk. dave |
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#3
02-15-2012, 10:58 AM
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That is a reasonable amount and your que is reasonable for the fine reputation that you have. I have seen much more substantial amounts required and longer waiting periods that do not seem reasonable to me. OTOH if they can command that in the marketplace then I do not begrudge them from doing it as it is only business. However I would be inclined to shy away from that situation.
I did correct my original reply; see below. Quote:
Last edited by dekindy; 02-15-2012 at 11:09 AM. |
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#4
03-15-2012, 07:43 AM
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Well said. Andreas |
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#5
03-15-2012, 08:18 AM
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I already see some f'builder pedestal behavior going on. I could be totally wrong, but didn't he have a legal binding contract when he took the deposits? Giving it back was the right thing to do but then starting back up again? I wonder what would happen if this was any other business? I'm all for "finding balance" in your life or doing something different, but if you want to run a business, run a business. Especially if you are going to run the same business twice.
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www.performancesci.com - Performance through science Last edited by Joachim; 03-15-2012 at 08:22 AM. |
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#6
03-15-2012, 10:13 AM
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#1 I'm not sure contract law applies, and think that it does not, but for kicks, let's say that it does. #2 Should he have kept the deposits, hired a bankruptcy lawyer, and let those who wanted their deposit back, hire their own lawyers and get in line with the bankruptcy proceedings? Then he could've re-incorporated and gone about making frames, just as he'll be doing today. It would be all legal and tidy that way. But unethical. #3 By accepting their returned deposit, they agreed to cancel their "contract". By all acccounts he closed his business and was done. This wasn't an attempt to extort those on his waiting list into paying more. I think the way he handled it was ethical and honest. I can't believe that people anywhere could suggest otherwise. I'd rather do business with ethical people, than those who use the law as cover for their unethical behavior. Legal, but unethical Last edited by mistermo; 03-15-2012 at 10:21 AM. |
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#7
03-15-2012, 10:25 AM
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Looks like his website was updated yesterday, there is a new "bike of the week" entry. Its stunning:
http://www.steelmancycles.com/Bike%2...he%20week.html |
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#8
03-15-2012, 10:32 AM
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#9
03-15-2012, 10:39 AM
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Framebuilders take note: a simple 1-2 page contract that spells out each parties' rights & responsibilities would address sooooooo much of the bad issues that surface during this type of conversation. Whoever does it, or announces that they already do, I think would really gain a lot of respect and biz for it.
Personally, other than dealing with maybe 2 or 3 long-established folks in the biz in the usual custom build "trust" process, I would never go the custom route without it. Too much headache otherwise. p.s. that blue & white Steelman is pretty darned sweet looking. Replace that seat binder bolt with a nice non-stripped one, would ya! Sheesh, details! Quote:
Last edited by 54ny77; 03-15-2012 at 10:43 AM. |
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#10
03-15-2012, 10:59 AM
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99.99999% of the time, when the framebuilder can't deliver and returns the deposit, the customer is cool with this. 99.99999% of the time, when a deposit it paid, and the customer walks from it, the framebuilder takes it no further. When seeking a framebuilder, I'll always choose the ethical guy first. If a builder wants to enter into contract negotiations, even a simple one, about a bike frame, then that's a dang good sign that I'm talking to the wrong guy. A few years ago, I put a deposit on a frame, then lost my job after it was built, but before it was delivered. I decided it was an excess I could do without. The builder found another buyer who was happy to take my place. With a contract, I suppose he could've sued me? As with Steelman, the situation wasn't ideal, but everyone walked away just fine, with no lawyers involved. And when the time comes, I'll be back. Last edited by mistermo; 03-15-2012 at 11:03 AM. |
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#11
03-15-2012, 11:52 AM
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all the things you described could be easily addressed in a contract.
not that they're the end-all-be-all, but something on paper is better than the all too common bro handshake/you'll get it when it's done timeline, along with a little hopin' and prayin' that the reality meets the expectations either in the end or along the way. plus it (a contract) gives both parties adequate framework for redress if things go sideways. like anything, all situations are negotiable. your situation (lost job, undelivered frame but a solution that worked out for everyone) would have been the same with or without a contract, since it sounds like you worked with a good builder. being devil's advocate, consider: what would the builder have done if, being ethical and solutions-oriented as he seems to be, instead got stiffed if you just walked away and left him hanging? that's what i meant by protections going both ways. Quote:
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#12
03-15-2012, 12:55 PM
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If a framebuilder returns your deposit, is it really worthwhile to hire a lawyer to go after the guy for breach of implied contract? Even if the builder doesn't return the deposit, I expect the time/money one devotes to it won't ever be recovered. If a customer forfeits their $500 deposit and walks, do many framebuilders think it's a good investment of their time/money to hire a lawyer to go get the rest, when the frame is still in their possession? For me, life is too short to burdern simple transactions with excessive precautions. If a builder chooses to do this, then I've picked the wrong one. If I ask for a contract, then I expect an established builder might tell me to go find another. In my view, these aren't complicated transactions and inserting lawyers will make them exactly that. I'm speaking for myself, of course. |
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#13
08-14-2012, 05:04 PM
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Reality check...Thanks!
Business is business...sometimes people think that a bike builder is having so much fun building bikes that money discussions are a crass blemish on a purist endeavor...thanks for the reality check.
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