What’s on your coffee bench?

[Erikg]

Originally Posted by oldguy00

Has anyone cross shopped ECM and Rocket machines?

Thoughts on the following two heat exchanger / rotary pump machines:
Rocket Mozzafiato R
ECM Technika V Profi

Close in price, some asthetic differences etc

We've had an ECM Classika single boiler for about 6 years now. We haven't had any issues with it, very well built. When doing the research back then, the ECM's seemed internally better designed. The plumbing and materials were well thought out compared to other brands. The water tank also had the no drip feed at the bottom vs some of the others that had two tubes that came in from the top.

We really like ours. I was a bit skeptical about an espresso machine due to the upfront cost and not sure how long it would last. Before buying, we did a cost calculation of how much we were spending weekly on our morning ritual (typical weekday morning coffee shop runs and weekend drip coffee at home). The calc showed around 3.5 years to pay for machine and grinder (grinder also ECM), vs our typical coffee spending. When Covid hit, I was so glad to have made the purchase. It runs on a smart timer and comes on everyday for 4 hours. We keep the used coffee pucks, which end up in our compost and p-patch garden. We have a rotating single origin subscription from Camber Coffee out of Bellingham, WA (2 weeks, 2lb bag, two people). All-in-all I wish we would have purchased it sooner. It's lasted longer than any other coffee maker we've ever had, especially since it's in use everyday. Small parts are also replaceable. Just like Campy 10 speed!... haven't had to buy any replacement parts yet though.

Whichever brand you buy, you won't regret it. I understand they are all made in the same Italian factories.

[oldguy00]

Originally Posted by jkbrwn

I get that. Also consider Lelit? My dad went from a Bianca X to a Decent and he doesn't regret it... but he did like the Bianca a lot. Particularly its flow control. I get the looks thing of the Decent. Not for everyone. If I was spending as much as you're considering I'd definitely want flow control, though? Looks like WLL will fit an e61 flow control knob for free to machines in your price range, but I'm guessing you'd be ordering from a Canadian retailer?

Yup would be buying from a Canadian retailer. If I got the ECM, I'd get it through 'idrinkcoffee.com'. The Rocket would come from one of a few different retailers. The ECM can be had with the flo control I think.
Is the flo control that big of a game changer? That much better than just doing a bit of pre-infusion if desired?
The Lelit looks like a nice machine too, but I think strictly just personal pref, I'd prob go with the Rocket or ECM for looks.

[jkbrwn]

Personal preference I guess. I come from manual espresso so being able to choose exactly how I make a shot is all I know. I.e. 3 bar pre, 9 bar main, declining pressure finish.

[jdanton]

Originally Posted by oldguy00

Has anyone cross shopped ECM and Rocket machines?

Thoughts on the following two heat exchanger / rotary pump machines:
Rocket Mozzafiato R
ECM Technika V Profi

Close in price, some asthetic differences etc

I did a few years ago, and ended up buying the dual-boiler ECM (Synkronika, IIRC), and it has been nothing but a dream for 3 years.

[glepore]

Originally Posted by oldguy00

Yup would be buying from a Canadian retailer. If I got the ECM, I'd get it through 'idrinkcoffee.com'. The Rocket would come from one of a few different retailers. The ECM can be had with the flo control I think.
Is the flo control that big of a game changer? That much better than just doing a bit of pre-infusion if desired?
The Lelit looks like a nice machine too, but I think strictly just personal pref, I'd prob go with the Rocket or ECM for looks.

Not a game changer, but worthwhile. You can profile if you want, and you can often save a shot if the grind or tamp wasn't optimal for the day's conditions.

[jdanton]

Originally Posted by glepore

Not a game changer, but worthwhile. You can profile if you want, and you can often save a shot if the grind or tamp wasn't optimal for the day's conditions.

For what it costs (I think it was either free or an extra $50) flow control is totally worth it.

I've even pulled some decent shots out of way too old beans in emergencies with it.

[rogerspam]

Hopefully people still checking this thread

Any thoughts about the updated Flex Neo--now with pressure gauge?
https://flairespresso.com/product/neo-flex/

Never had an espresso machine of any sort and thinking this is a low investment option but was thinking of this vs the Wacaco Picopresso or Nanopresso. Again, never tried or tasted espresso from any of these devices. Just thinking I didn't want to buy a machine with assorted maintenance, etc (unless I just saw screw it and buy some super automatic Jura).

[froze]

Originally Posted by rogerspam

Hopefully people still checking this thread

Any thoughts about the updated Flex Neo--now with pressure gauge?
https://flairespresso.com/product/neo-flex/

Never had an espresso machine of any sort and thinking this is a low investment option but was thinking of this vs the Wacaco Picopresso or Nanopresso. Again, never tried or tasted espresso from any of these devices. Just thinking I didn't want to buy a machine with assorted maintenance, etc (unless I just saw screw it and buy some super automatic Jura).

I would think, without any reason for thinking, that the Flair would be better than the Picopresso or the Nanopresso in terms of pulling better espresso shots. But if you are traveling with any of them then the smaller ones are obviously more portable, but using it every day for a year those smaller ones won't last.

The Picopresso if used every day has about a 2-year life expectancy; whereas the NanoPresso's average life is 7 years; the Flair Neo Flex is too new yet for any sort of life expectancy but the one problem I did learn about it is the pressure release valve inside the piston is designed to break if the grind is too fine. They do make replacement ones, so you would probably want to order the 2 pack for it just in case, the cost is only $4. The bad thing about some stupid small part breaking fairly easily is what happens if they stop making the Neo Flex and in the process stop making the part? Yup.

But that particular Flair is made of plastic, so even with it care will be needed while using it. That Flair makes smaller shots than other Flairs.

Personally, if I were you and was on a budget, I would cough up another $65 and get the Flair Classic instead, it's made of metal instead of polyplastic and will last a very long time, plus it pulls a larger shot. The only drawback to the Classic is that there is no pressure gauge, but with some practice, you should learn how to pull it correctly. They do sell a pressure gauge for it but for some reason, it's another $56 which seems sort of expensive for what it is, but if you want accurate shots out of the gate without wasting shots trying to learn then you might want it. So if you bought both at the same time you would be out $221 plus tax, but you would have a very good espresso maker, that will last decades, so in the long run, the Classic will be cheaper than any of the others.

I forgot to mention something. There is another manual arm machine on the market, it's called the ROK Expressogc, it cost $229, it's another one of those that will last decades. I might want to research it to see if you think it would be better than the Flair Classic for that price. The ROK is easier to clean.

[jkbrwn]

Have owned a Rok, a Robot and now a Flair 58.

I’d stay away from the ROK tbh. It was fine but products from Flair are way more capable. Also much better customer support and community when buying a Flair product.

Agree with Froze that I’d stump up the extra for the Classic.

[froze]

Originally Posted by jkbrwn

Have owned a Rok, a Robot and now a Flair 58.

I’d stay away from the ROK tbh. It was fine but products from Flair are way more capable. Also much better customer support and community when buying a Flair product.

Agree with Froze that I’d stump up the extra for the Classic.

What did you not like about the ROK? Inquiring minds want to know!

Reviews have been pretty good with the ROK, some people have a bit more difficulty with it vs others, but those who learn how to use it seem to like it a lot, so just want your take on it because it is less expensive than the others.

What was your take on the Robot vs the 58?

[jkbrwn]

Originally Posted by froze

What did you not like about the ROK? Inquiring minds want to know!

Reviews have been pretty good with the ROK, some people have a bit more difficulty with it vs others, but those who learn how to use it seem to like it a lot, so just want your take on it because it is less expensive than the others.

What was your take on the Robot vs the 58?

Ergonomically it just wasn’t that pleasant to use. I didn’t like the way the pf locked into it. It was hard to get a good scale under there due to an awkward base plate size. I didn’t like the spout over naked pf. It required a good two pre heat rounds to get the body hot enough. It’s solid metal so it’s just a huge heat sink unfortunately.

The robot is the easiest machine to use out there IMO. Genuinely doesn’t need preheating and pretty hard to mess things up.

However, I have way more control over the 58. I can very reliably use lighter coffee than I could with the Robot. It’s nicer to use ergonomically IMO. It’s easier to pull back to back shots with it due to the temp stability. It is also compatible with industry standard size accessories which was a big deal. I also prefer general workflow with the 58 but that’s personal I guess.

I’d happily own either tbh. The Robot is obviously more charming than the 58. But temp stability ultimately has lead to more consistent shots and that was priority number one.

[froze]

Originally Posted by jkbrwn

I’d happily own either tbh. The Robot is obviously more charming than the 58. But temp stability ultimately has lead to more consistent shots and that was priority number one.

That was very good info, thks!

My understanding is that with any of the Flairs you have to preheat it, is that true?

So are you getting more consistent shots with the 58 over the Robot despite having to preheat it first?

[jkbrwn]

Originally Posted by froze

That was very good info, thks!

My understanding is that with any of the Flairs you have to preheat it, is that true?

So are you getting more consistent shots with the 58 over the Robot despite having to preheat it first?

The Flair 58 has a heating element with three settings - low, medium and high.

No pre-heating needed via running boiling water through it like some other machines. I just turn it to high ten mins before making my shot and its good as gold.

The rest of the Flairs likely require a pre-heat cycle.

[froze]

Originally Posted by jkbrwn

The Flair 58 has a heating element with three settings - low, medium and high.

No pre-heating needed via running boiling water through it like some other machines. I just turn it to high ten mins before making my shot and its good as gold.

The rest of the Flairs likely require a pre-heat cycle.

thks for info