For the Hate of Eroica!!!!!!

[velomonkey]

Originally Posted by fiamme red

So is dressing up in your favorite current team's jersey.

EXACTLY. Paying a $50 membership fee and then $120 for a 'kit' and entry fees into a CAT whatever race is playing make believe. Just a different kind of make believe.

[Mr. Pink]

Originally Posted by 54ny77

i guess he's never heard of vintage car racing. the idea there is...wait for it....race the vintage cars.

Well, from what I've seen, no, not really. Seems to be a bunch of Dentists and bankers who decided to collect old race cars (which is a fairly new phenomenon in the market. Old race cars usually were trashed pre 1985) and the "race" is a place to hang out with like minded dentists and bankers and take the thing out for a spin. The spin usually requires the most expertise, because getting a thirty year old Porsche or Ferrari race machine up to speed requires a ton of mechanical ability and a lot of expensive parts and tires. I doubt the dentist is doing this solo. He needs a crew.
I guess some actually "race", but, would you put a five million dollar antique in danger of getting trashed for a few kicks? Maybe, if you're worth a billion. Even then.

Reminds me of when Stirling Moss was handed one of only three remaining birdcage Maseratis to take out and "race" about ten years ago at one of these events. He was about 72, so maybe he didn't hear someone say, over the engines warming up, oh, say, Stirling, old chap, this isn't really a race, right? Nudge nudge, wink wink. So he tales the thing out and gets into a nasty shunt passing in the dirt. Poof, a few hundred thousand in replacement parts. Probably had to hire a sculptor to do the body work.

[velomonkey]

Originally Posted by Mr. Pink

Well, from what I've seen, no, not really. Seems to be a bunch of Dentists and bankers who decided to collect old race cars (which is a fairly new phenomenon in the market. Old race cars usually were trashed pre 1985) and the "race" is a place to hang out with like minded dentists and bankers

That boat that won America's cup out of the SF area fact club - Oracle Team USA. Sure the dude is not a banker or a dentist, but it's another rich dude playing with his toys.

Is he not racing? Lots of rich dudes subsidize their pet projects so they can ride with the 'real' racers. DuPont rolling around on the floor in tights with dudes twice his size - pretend - the team also won medals. Tinkov - you know that team with a rider in the world champ stripes - he likes to dress up and ride around on his bike, too.

We all got something going on in our heads - some see themselves, some see themselves as others - some get paid and so pay. So there is an event that has gear requirements: last I checked every USA Cycling event and UCI event had gear requirements, too. So this race harkens back to a bygone era - dudes are still pinning a number on, some do it for the social aspect and some do it as fast as they can - it's still a race and it's more of a race than the weekly local throw down where no one is pinning a number on themselves.

[54ny77]

Of the guys I know who own & race vintage cars, none of them are bankers and dentists. Some are entrepreneurs who've had overnight success after grinding away for 20-30 years. A couple of 'em are corporate working stiffs who've owned the cars since day one (and thus not all are pristine vehicles), so no, they didn't pay 6-7 figures for the car. Not sure if you're making up your ownership criteria or interpolating that characteristic from the number of times you see the words dentists and bankers used here on in the media as emblematic of excess wealth. Don't forget to lump in entertainers, sports figures, politicians, crime lords, plastic surgeons, legacy dynastic wealth, and anyone else with a fat checkbook....

Anyway...there's a reason a shop like Emory exists--they build vintage Porsche cars meant to go out and get raced and used, not to be spent weekends with a q-tip cleaning dust out of the air vents.

Originally Posted by Mr. Pink

Well, from what I've seen, no, not really. Seems to be a bunch of Dentists and bankers who decided to collect old race cars (which is a fairly new phenomenon in the market. Old race cars usually were trashed pre 1985) and the "race" is a place to hang out with like minded dentists and bankers and take the thing out for a spin. The spin usually requires the most expertise, because getting a thirty year old Porsche or Ferrari race machine up to speed requires a ton of mechanical ability and a lot of expensive parts and tires. I doubt the dentist is doing this solo. He needs a crew.
I guess some actually "race", but, would you put a five million dollar antique in danger of getting trashed for a few kicks? Maybe, if you're worth a billion. Even then.

Reminds me of when Stirling Moss was handed one of only three remaining birdcage Maseratis to take out and "race" about ten years ago at one of these events. He was about 72, so maybe he didn't hear someone say, over the engines warming up, oh, say, Stirling, old chap, this isn't really a race, right? Nudge nudge, wink wink. So he tales the thing out and gets into a nasty shunt passing in the dirt. Poof, a few hundred thousand in replacement parts. Probably had to hire a sculptor to do the body work.

[Mr. Pink]

Originally Posted by velomonkey

That boat that won America's cup out of the SF area fact club - Oracle Team USA. Sure the dude is not a banker or a dentist, but it's another rich dude playing with his toys.

Is he not racing? Lots of rich dudes subsidize their pet projects so they can ride with the 'real' racers. DuPont rolling around on the floor in tights with dudes twice his size - pretend - the team also won medals. Tinkov - you know that team with a rider in the world champ stripes - he likes to dress up and ride around on his bike, too.

We all got something going on in our heads - some see themselves, some see themselves as others - some get paid and so pay. So there is an event that has gear requirements: last I checked every USA Cycling event and UCI event had gear requirements, too. So this race harkens back to a bygone era - dudes are still pinning a number on, some do it for the social aspect and some do it as fast as they can - it's still a race and it's more of a race than the weekly local throw down where no one is pinning a number on themselves.

Sure, he's racing (Ellison, you mean). But, that's real racing, not fake racing. The history of the Americas Cup and most auto racing is basically wealthy individuals and corporations funding race teams. You know, the really rich.

[Mr. Pink]

Originally Posted by 54ny77

Of the guys I know who own & race vintage cars, none of them are bankers and dentists. Some are entrepreneurs who've had overnight success after grinding away for 20-30 years. A couple of 'em are corporate working stiffs who've owned the cars since day one (and thus not all are pristine vehicles), so no, they didn't pay 6-7 figures for the car. Not sure if you're making up your ownership criteria or interpolating that characteristic from the number of times you see the words dentists and bankers used here on in the media as emblematic of excess wealth. Don't forget to lump in entertainers, sports figures, politicians, crime lords, plastic surgeons, legacy dynastic wealth, and anyone else with a fat checkbook....

Anyway...there's a reason a shop like Emory exists--they build vintage Porsche cars meant to go out and get raced and used, not to be spent weekends with a q-tip cleaning dust out of the air vents.

But, why not just buy a real race car and go out and compete? It's called the SCCA, if you only want a trophy. And, if you cashed in on some silly app recently, you may be able to afford a higher league, I guess.

[fiamme red]

Originally Posted by velomonkey

EXACTLY. Paying a $50 membership fee and then $120 for a 'kit' and entry fees into a CAT whatever race is playing make believe. Just a different kind of make believe.

I know plenty of middle-aged professionals who will only ride their bikes (even if they're just doing a lap in Central Park) wearing team kit, out of obligation to the sponsor, they say. But it's really more for their ego, since dressing up makes them feel like a real bike racer.

[ofcounsel]

Originally Posted by fiamme red

So is dressing up in your favorite current team's jersey.

No, not quite. That's fanboy-ism, or maybe a misguided sense of fashion. Not full-on, organized cos-play.

[velomonkey]

Originally Posted by fiamme red

I know plenty of middle-aged professionals who will only ride their bikes (even if they're just doing a lap in Central Park) wearing team kit, out of obligation to the sponsor, they say. But it's really more for their ego, since dressing up makes them feel like a real bike racer.

Sponsors, man. (let's be clear - it's 100% for their ego)

[fiamme red]

Originally Posted by ofcounsel

No, not quite. That's fanboy-ism, or maybe a misguided sense of fashion. Not full-on, organized cos-play.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosplay

Cosplay (コスプレ kosupure?), a contraction of the words costume play, is a performance art in which participants called cosplayers wear costumes and fashion accessories to represent a specific character. Cosplayers often interact to create a subculture and a broader use of the term "cosplay" applies to any costumed role-playing in venues apart from the stage. Any entity that lends itself to dramatic interpretation may be taken up as a subject and it is not unusual to see genders switched. Favorite sources include manga and anime, comic books and cartoons, video games, and live-action films and television series.

Most of the L'Eroica riders are just putting on old wool jerseys and leather shoes, maybe even wearing jerseys that match their bikes, and perhaps, at the most extreme, wrapping a spare tubular around their shoulders; they aren't dressing up as Coppi or Merckx.

[livingminimal]

Originally Posted by FlashUNC

There's no beef. Just an observation that it is what it is. And folks, for whatever reason, unwilling to accept that. Its re-enactment. Its pantomime. Its mimicry of an era gone by taken, in some cases but not all, to absurd lengths.

Any argument that tries to refute this is...just wrong. There is no way to argue against it. It's playing dress up, you want to know how I know? Because the other 364 days of the year 99.99999% of the attendees are riding much more modern equipment. Why try to argue it isn't something that it so clearly is? I might be Luke Skywalker this year for Halloween because my 7 year old loves Star Wars (and so do I!) and there's pretty much no chance I am going to wear a robe and bring a faux lightsaber to the board meeting of the Non-Profit I work for the following week, but I will still continue to love Star Wars.

I am not a fan of Eroica, mostly because I am not a fan of (m)any organized rides. I want to ride with some super doooosh pretending a fondo is a race on his/her perfect 15K spec'd Pinarello F8 the way I want to hang out with thousands of dorks with downtube shifters and toe clips. To me, there isn't much of a difference except that I had to pay to ride roads I could likely ride for free, without bother, and without showing off either my ultra modern bike, or my retro bike (and mustache).

And yeah, I rode through the 80s and early 90s. I didn't even have an index shifting bike until a few years ago. I don't want to go back to my bikes or gear from that era, and I have no desire to play dressup. If you want to? More power to you. Just not my thing.

Just please stop pretending it isn't exactly what it is. Reenactment of a day gone by.

[rain dogs]

Originally Posted by ofcounsel

No, not quite. That's fanboy-ism, or maybe a misguided sense of fashion. Not full-on, organized cos-play.

This is a bit reverse thinking, no? I'd say that wool pants and a sweater are closer to daily attire, and a lycra racing kit closer to costume, no? Also, Cos-play has the integral idea of representing a fictional character. (Edit: ^^^ I see someone beat me to it ^^^) When you ride your steel bike from the 80's... do you pretend your Sean Kelly? That would be strange indeed.

Either way, I personally don't care. Every event strives to have something unique - Eroica is a vintage(ish) steel bike. The thing that I always find surprising is how many, in this world of cycling, are so quick to be a drag when it comes to someone else's good time.

Riding bikes is fun. Road bikes, Mountain bikes, Eroica bikes, Fixed Gears, Cross Bikes... whatever. Have fun.

Don't take everything so seriously.

[fiamme red]

Originally Posted by livingminimal

It's playing dress up, you want to know how I know? Because the other 364 days of the year 99.99999% of the attendees are riding much more modern equipment.

No, that's just wrong. You may not like riding vintage bikes anymore, but some of us ride them regularly, even exclusively. The two bikes I've been riding lately are from 1974 and 1980 (yes, I do have more modern bikes). I didn't do L'Eroica, but would gladly do it if I had the chance.

And yeah, I rode through the 80s and early 90s. I didn't even have an index shifting bike until a few years ago. I don't want to go back to my bikes or gear from that era, and I have no desire to play dressup. If you want to? More power to you. Just not my thing.

Just please stop pretending it isn't exactly what it is. Reenactment of a day gone by.

If I commute on my 1980 Fuji that qualifies for L'Eroica, does that count as "reenactment"? Or is it only reenactment when you're riding in the company of others on old bikes?

[rain dogs]

Originally Posted by livingminimal

Because the other 364 days of the year 99.99999% of the attendees are riding much more modern equipment. Why try to argue it isn't something that it so clearly is?

I don't think anyone is arguing with how you, or some others, interpret the event... that's your interpretation... fair enough.

But for those who have been to the event (have you?) you would know that what you say isn't true.

Sure, some people "dress" to reflect their bike and it's era. But there were more than half the people, when I went, riding "normal" steel bikes with modern clothing.

I ride the same bike I took to Eroica pretty much weekly. I wear merino wool clothing everyday I ride. Many brands (Giro, Rapha etc.) make wool or wool blend clothing... you probably own some.

I think what people are responding to is the generalization of the event and it's attendees. And then asking, why do you care so much? They're (or I am) just having a good time.

[Elefantino]

Originally Posted by livingminimal

Any argument that tries to refute this is...just wrong. There is no way to argue against it. It's playing dress up, you want to know how I know? Because the other 364 days of the year 99.99999% of the attendees are riding much more modern equipment.

This. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

I had a Jensen-Healey once. Loved it. Was young and single and in decidedly better physical shape. Always looked back at it fondly. Skip ahead 35 years and a neighbor down the street has the same car I did, a 74 with a 5-speed Getrag and in the same red color. You would not believe how much of a pain this thing is to get in an out of. The clutch is like a 300-pound leg press and the ride is like a Conestoga. I might take it out for a spin or to a J-H event but it surely is just for nostalgia and the rest of the time I'm comfy in my Bluetooth-equipped Subaru.

(Reminds me of when Ford tried to bring back the Thunderbird as a nostalgia car. "Hey! Let's make a car for the over 60 crowd that is really cramped, uncomfortable and underpowered!")

I also have a Bianchi with downtube Athena 7-speed. Damn nice bike with shifters that are a pain in the ass. I should just stop trying to be sentimental (and cheap) and cold set the thing to accept a modern drivetrain.

Of course, then I couldn't ride it in l'Eroica...