Training: The least amount required.

[JStonebarger]

Originally Posted by Bostic

Some of the cyclists I used to ride with lived by the "Raise the left, fill the right" phrase (or is it the other way around?) Basically raise the FTP and high intensity which in turns makes the endurance pace creep up as a result. Does that apply here at all?

It's from Kraig (Bike Tech Review) and Kirk Willett (http://www.bicyclepaper.com/articles...e-Performance-) and many believe it applies pretty much everywhere.

[benb]

Originally Posted by stephenmarklay

Yeah it was 5 of us. We ride for an hour at a moderate base and they picked it up for 90-2 hours. At that point I was likely pushing 250-300 watts for most of it.

I got caught out on one windy up hill section. The group waited as I caught up. I will say that after that I did not get dropped again and two other riders did. Our lead rider has found form and is pushing the pace. Sunday is supposed to be a faster day for the group so it is all fair and good.

The last hour most of us were tired so we went easy the last hour.

If you're going to talk watts this should be easy for you to figure out, do you have a PM or are you just guessing?

Where did you get dropped, on a hill? Or on the flats? Were you taking pulls or sitting in?

If it's a flat ride and you know you're outgunned you really need to stay out of the wind, and then hope and pray you don't get dropped on a big hill.

How fast was this ride? Maintaining 250-300w for an hour implies this was a smoking fast ride, average speed > 20mph?

It doesn't sound like much of anything except being more dedicated would really help you. If you're not exaggerating the watts or downplaying how much training you're doing you sound like you're naturally stronger than your friends if you were able to stay with them.

4 hour rides require 4 hour fitness. After that you gotta conserve energy and stuff like that, and lose weight if climbing is the issue. If you've actually got a PM and you have data there are plenty of ways to figure out what is wrong and plenty of recipes for how to fix it. If you're heavier than everyone else that will show up as excessive power to get up the hills. If you don't have the endurance that will probably show up as declining average power as the 4 hours goes on.

I'm pretty much in the same boat right now.. haven't had time to get those long rides in to get my endurance up. My shorter term power is fine, weightlifting + the trainer really helps preserve that over the winter but endurance really suffers.

[JStonebarger]

What's four hour fitness? Or endurance? Is that some other energy system that doesn't kick in until 200 minutes into a ride?

No. Beyond a point -- and probably a relatively short one -- endurance is pacing and eating and drinking enough. What else is there?

[nooneline]

Originally Posted by JStonebarger

What's four hour fitness? Or endurance? Is that some other energy system that doesn't kick in until 200 minutes into a ride?

No. Beyond a point -- and probably a relatively short one -- endurance is pacing and eating and drinking enough. What else is there?

Going harder than Z2 for longer than you're used to.

[misterha]

I don't think there's such thing as the magic bullet workout. In a general sense to get faster you need to train in all your zones. Doing different workouts to hit above, below and at threshold with atleast 30 minutes in each zone.

[54ny77]

Spanish beef.

[charliedid]

Originally Posted by 54ny77

Spanish beef.

And weed.

:-)

[Peter P.]

You've got too many irons in the fire, and you're asking a lot to hang on 4 hour rides when your interests are so varied.

Even 2 hour training rides won't be sufficient to hang with the cycling-dedicated types on 4 hour rides. I think 3 hours for training would be the minimum, unless you're a gifted athlete. If you were, you wouldn't be posting this; you'd be crushing their skulls under your wheels.

And while that Time Crunched Cyclist program is great in concept, I think it takes a lot of joy out of cycling when the program is so regimented just so you don't get dropped.

I recommend you change your expectations or replace some of your other activities with more cycling.

[shovelhd]

Originally Posted by nooneline

FWIW, I'm a Cat 1 and 2 in my two disciplines, and in the past 2.5 months I've averaged a hair over 8 hrs/week.

It ain't the time, it's how you spend it. I'll happily provide a coach rec.

This. I won many national level races on 7-9 hours/week. However none of my races were 4 hours. There's no replacement for volume if you really need volume.

[kgreene10]

Joaquim- isn't one long hard ride per week enough to work the endurance system is you have years of miles in the bones, and then supplement with midweek HIIT?

Stephen, you asked about my workouts.
A typical week for me this time of year is
M off

T hard intervals 30"-2' for a total of max 20' of hard work

W 1-1.5 hrs at solid z3

TH 40' crit or that plus a 30' crit. At other times of year, repeat Tues.

F rest

Sat road race or 3.5hr group ride that somehow always gives me 250tss. I always try to attack in the hills on the way back. The best riders then shred me. Love it.

Sun my coach usually tells me to ride in z1-z2 for 3 hours but I usually only manage 1.5 hours and spend the rest of the day with my son.

For me, those nearly race pacedSat rides are essential. They are the right terrain, pace, and length for getting me in the right fitness and state of mind for road races. I have very few hours in my legs this year but did the Sat ride the last two weekends and drew in those sensations yesterday in a brutal 70 mile road race with 20mph winds that made it into a race of attrition. Without the weekly experience of being at my limit, I wouldn't have held on.

[nooneline]

Originally Posted by shovelhd

This. I won many national level races on 7-9 hours/week. However none of my races were 4 hours. There's no replacement for volume if you really need volume.

Same. My most important ones are under 1 hr. Some less than 20 mins. #trackie

[HenryA]

Originally Posted by shovelhd

This. I won many national level races on 7-9 hours/week. However none of my races were 4 hours. There's no replacement for volume if you really need volume.

This^^^

After I got a good fitness base by riding a couple hundred miles a week, I could race and do well in 2 crits every weekend on about 10 hours total riding time a week for the whole season. The 10 hours included the racing. And I even got faster by the end of the year.

That would never have done if I was trying to do well in 4 hour road races.

[Tandem Rider]

If you want to do well in 4 hour events, 4 hours has to feel like there should be more to come.
I placed top 10 at masters nationals on 8-9 hours, but it was a 35 minute TT, not a 4 hour RR.

[carpediemracing]

I'm no coach but I can fake it on a flattish group ride if I don't pull too much, meaning I could go and do one right now if I had to.

However...

4 hours
5 riders

This means no shelter (riding 5th wheel is nowhere as easy as riding 50th wheel) and you're delving deep into the endurance side of things. I'd struggle mightily in a 4 hour ride right now as I'm cramping pretty badly within 2.

Hills don't help either, where drafting becomes a non-thing, you have to work super hard to stay with rider, and gaps are chasms relatively speaking.

Anyone can fake it for 1.5-2 hours. It's when you hit about 2.5 hours it gets hard.

A thought came to mind as well. Did you annihilate the other 4 normally? Romping away at will, pulling for 3 of 4 hours, etc? Or were you even with them? Or even with them at best?

There's a joke. Guy goes to doctor with broken hand.
"Doctor, will I be able to play the violin after I heal?"
"Sure, it'll heal fine."
"Great 'cause I don't know how to play now!"

If you're only a little below where you were, that's life. If you used to destroy these guys then it's significant.

[stephenmarklay]

Man, so many awesome replies. I can’t respond to each of these great posts but I have read each one and appreciate the answers.

I think one thing is clear. I am not riding enough if I want to be able to hang. I do since it is a social outlet for me. I enjoy the physicality of it all as well.

I feel like if I just stayed consistent riding I would be ok.

As someone pointed it out this is not rocket science. The lead guy is now getting stronger after a 5 year hiatus from finding form. I have been used to just riding pretty slow on group rides. Well with his form came speed which Sunday meant fast into the wind. The bottom line is that with my current FTP I am working around threshold or more a lot while he is Z2-3. I had to use everything I had, hiding from the winds, getting aero, spinning etc. I do think I could have been smarter on food but I did not bonk.

For sure some of this is mental. When I was dropped, I bet I could have stayed on if I really hammered it. But hammering it too hard may have exhausted me to the point I was done. So that mental aspect of not knowing my breaking point did not help. As it turns out I saved enough so that nearing the end it was not me needing to soft pedal.

I have this weird thing that the deeper I go the more my brain turns off. I usually manage to push at the end a little harder than some others which has been an asset in the past. Early on I stifle myself, worried I will blow.

Anyway, the was a lesson. I may take a little time to find some form but this has been very helpful.